HarryW - Whats happening in palestine/israel

i think i have a good grasp of whats happening

jeruesalem is holy to both muslims and jews
jews want it for themselves
muslims want it for themselves

Dome of the Rock - is holy to muslims because it is the place believed by muslim that Muhammad (last prophet of message of God) to have gone to heaven from.. a rock thats in that mosque is where he was taken from..
AND that very same rock is the place believed by muslims that God tested Abraham to sacrifice his son on (this was just a test, even thou Abraham was going to do it, God commanded him not to after abraham was willing.. thats another issue)

now to jews.. jews believe the same place is where the temple of soloman should be built..

now the fighting..
now there is more to it then just the religous aspect..

palestinians believe its their land.
jews believe its theirs
big war going on over the land too

there is HUGE issues with this
as a muslim
i believe that there should NOT be fighting but also as a muslim i believe that defending yourself is a RIGHT that you have..
so palestinians are defending themselves with stones
and israel is attacking with tanks and other heavy weapons..

also another note:
i think this will lead to a big ass war (very sad)
becuase this time it seems like the world of muslims is involved since the dome of the rock and other holy sites in palestine are at risk

Oh right. Sorry if this sounds ignorant but Palestine is a country next to Israel isn't it?

A few more questions:

Where is Jerusalem, is it in Israel?

Where is the Dome of the Rock?

Do the Jews think that the Temple of Solomon should be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock currently stands?

Do the Jews recognise the Dome of the Rock as being holy in any way?

Why do both sides believe it is their land?

You say the Palestinians are defending themselves against the Israelis, why are the Israelis attacking them and are the countries at war? I have heard something about peace talks.


Sorry for the long list of questions, hope you can fill me in on the situation :)

>Where is Jerusalem, is it in Israel?
yes it is in "israel" which is internationally recognized as a country..
but if you asked a palestinian
they would say its in "palestine" which is not a internatiolly recognized country
jeruesalem is i guess the hebrew name for the place which means "PEACE" how ironic eh?
and in arabic jerusalem is known as Quds

Dome of the rock is in Quds/Jerusalem

Jews want to build a temple there
and also they believe it is holy to them for the same reason that abraham was to sacrifice is son

jews and muslims both are admirers of abraham...

so there is a huge war going on..

about the defence..
palestians are currently under the israely government and want their own state/country..

palestian was in hands of the arabs before 1972 i guess
then it was captured from them by jews in the 72-73 war..

why both sidez believe its their land?
well according to Torah, they claim god said its promised land for jews

according to Quran it is land for muslims...

in 1173 or something like that if i remember the date correctly... a guy by the name of Salahadin (muslim)
kicked everyone out of quds (if you read on crusaders you will come across this event)

so now jews are in there again
palestians want them out
jews want the palestians out..

and the most interesting part or i should say weirdest
israel is about to make jerusalem/quds an internationally recognized CAPITAL of israel (currently its Tel Aviv)
and muslims are angry over this because once it is the capital of israel, its no longer going to be theirs as well.

and christians to come in this as well as they find some part of Quds/jeruesalem to be holy to them as well (because of Jesus (peace be upon him)

Thank gawd i aint in that war

since US is mostly driven by israel...
i sense a BIG war coming :(

Oh dear, not good :(

Looks like noone's in the right or the wrong then, it's all just an unfortunate situation. Except I think it's very insensitive of Israel if they move their capital to Jerusalem, that's bound to cause more trouble than it's worth.

ya and the worst part is
only the civiliants are being killed and tortured

ya about the movement of th capital
thats probably the biggest issue

before israel did what ever it wanted to and never made it look like it was targeting the whole muslim community around the world.. but made it as if it was just againts palestinians
this time the have pissed ALL muslims off (including me of course)

so you have a billion people againts israel and US
its not gonna be pretty
i just pray to Gawd nothing of that sort happens
because if it does
then there will be WWIII
very very sad
they weere VEEEEEEERY close to signing the FINAL peace deal
but it coudn't happen because of jerusalem
thats the KEY to this WHOLE issue

hmmmmm now i see why jerusalem means peace
i think the person who named it that should have made it "KEY to PEACE" :)
Cus it sure is the KEY to peace

lets all hope nothing crazy happens

Kovan

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. I have seen bits and pieces on the news but as you know its the news and it isn't often they bother to get the facts.

I really have only one thought on the matter myself personally and that is why 2 nations of people... BOTH supposedly who follow the laws of God choose to fight rather than talk about the solution.

It seems to me the only reason they are unable to come to a compromise or fair and equal resolution is because their religion wont allow them to... They are destined to end it in bloodshed BECAUSE they both feel they are righteous in their actions.

I find that sad and as you say, the civilians end up dying because a few people place their religion over the survival of their people, their neighbours and the fact that we are all human beings and we ALL live in the same world.

I hope it resolves itself peacfully... but I doubt it :(

Damn and i was enjoying my life.

I find it rather stupid and rediculous that there is violence and bloodshed in the "Holy-Land".Since this is the case..maybe we deserver whatever happens to us.

But why should the whole world have to suffer?

Just because these 2 nations cannot work out their differences why should the entire population of innocent people who go about their lives wanting nothing to do with any of it end up being the only ones to suffer for it?

I don't think "we" deserve whatever happens to "us"... but "they" certainly deserve whatever happens to "them".

I think both sides should remember to be careful what they wish for.... one day they might get it and it isn't all its cracked up to be.

Thats what i say gen... but when you have government that doesnt give a crap..except to perform there own style of "population control" what are people like us going to do about it? Run...hide.. hope for the best?

I mean i am not a coward..i will fight for my country (not for the people that are in power here in the u.s either, i mean for my country and what it was founded on)..but i damn well aint going to go fight for a country that doesnt give a crap about me and possibly die over a stupid situation that could be settled if they used one ounce of what they so-call "peace".I dont remember anywhere in the bible saying that arguments have to be settled with the deaths of many people?


"I don't think "we" deserve whatever happens to "us"... but "they" certainly deserve whatever happens to "them"."


Exactly... but what ever happend to that old saying
"Mind your own business!"

Nobody needs too get envolved in this "holy war" just let them settle it.

Here's the issues etc. in a nutshell


Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock is built over land that is sacred to both Muslims and Jews

Issue: Jerusalem

No issue in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is more emotional than Jerusalem. A big reason: because Judaism's holiest site and Islam's third-holiest site are located within the city's boundaries. Half of the city was under Jordanian control until the 1967 war, when it was reunified after Israel drove Jordan out of the West Bank.

The Palestinian position:

The Palestinians have always regarded Jerusalem, or Al Quds, as they call it, as the capital of their future state. They want to restore a divide between Israeli and Arab sections, with the religious rights of all guaranteed.

The Israeli position:

Israel insists that Jerusalem is its "eternal" capital (although most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv) and that the city will remain undivided under its control, with rights of religious access guaranteed to all.

The Outlook:

Previous talks between Israeli negotiator Yossi Beilin and Palestinian representative Abu Mazen have fashioned a potential compromise, in which the Palestinians establish their capital in Abu Dis, a neighborhood on the periphery of Jerusalem with a panoramic view of the Islamic holy sites that had been part of the city under the Ottoman Empire but is not included within the present Israeli municipal boundaries. A building that reportedly will be for the use of a Palestinian legislature is already under construction there. One problem: Arafat has since denounced the plan and dismissed Mazen. Again, Clinton will have to work on packaging a solution that could be presented as a different reality to each side.

dude are you like stupid?
they MAKE it look like it is a religious war..
its not
its all about politics and who can piss the other off more

you dont like to suffer?
than raise your voice instead of bitching on here about why they cant resolve it

raise your voice that you dont want to suffer because they cant resolve the conflict

ALL YOU DO IS ***** ***** *****
and blame RELIGION
ever wondered that people "USE" religion to get away with things
like so called terrorist groups that CLAIM they are doing it for God
well infact we all know what God says about killing innocent people

so instead of bitching and blaming
write to your prime minster

i am just as pissed if not more than you are
but i dont blame religion
i blame the "governmentS"

[Edited by kovan on 10-12-2000 at 01:46 PM]

I am an atheist goy with more sympathy for the Jews than the Palestinians. I was sent there in the early sixties to train programmers, living there for about 15 months. The Israeli DOD had bought a large mainframe.

This issue is a real mess. From a pragmatic view, it seems silly to try to establish claims based on history. No way will we give USA back to the Indians. Spain will not give Spain back o the Basques. Neither Turkey nor Iraq will turn territory over to the Kurds. You get the picture.

The answer is fight or negotiate over more current issues.

Frankly, if given Carte Blanche to settle the problem, I know a solution which would work but would never be allowed to happen.

Utterly destroy the Dome of the Mosque, the Wailing Wall, the remains of the Jewish Temple, and everything else on that 2-3 acre piece of ground. Allow the US to bury most of their radioactive waste there and cover it with concrete. The site would be uninhabitable for thousands of years. The religious fanatics might visit it anyway and die from radioactive poisoning (This might help defuse the situation). At any rate, the site would not be available to either side. Threaten to do the same with any other disputed religious site. This might get the fanatic religious beliefs out of the way, allowing some sane solution.

On to some details from the past 50 or so years.

The current issues seem to be as follows.

The Jews had been promised a country of their own some time prior to the second WW, perhaps about the time of the first WW. Palestine was declared an independent country in 1947 or 1948. At that time, it had both Jews and Arabs living there. I think it was to be under Jewish control with civil rights for Arabs. I do not know the details of how the original state was to be set up and governed. It was put under British control after the first WW broke up the remains of the Ottoman empire, creating a lot of countries in the Middle East.

The Arab countries were not willing to tolerate a Jewish state in their midst. As soon as British forces withdrew, the Arabs attacked. They encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to flee, claiming that any who remained would be annihilated as Jewish collaborators. Many fled. Some were driven out by the Israelis.

I was told this by a wealthy Syrian Arab who choose to stay in Israeli. He said he hoped to be able to bribe Arab conquerors in the event of an Arab victory. He had a successful business, land holdings, and bank accounts. He was unwilling to leave, fearing that no matter who won, he would not get his assets back after the war. There were many Arabs who stayed. To some extent they are treated as second class citizens, but are protected by a constitution which grants them citizenship. It is similar to, but not as bad as racism in the US.

The above suggests that the oil rich Arab counties had a significant responsibility to provide a home in Arab countires the Palestinians they had encouraged to flee. Instead, they used the Palestinians as political pawns. This solution is probably no longer a viable option.

Now there is a vastly larger Palestinian population (I think it tripled since 1948) with neither autonomy nor country of their own. They are being exploited by a corrupt leader who would probably lose his power (and mega$)if peace broke out. Their side is driven mostly by a desire for a place to call their own and religious fanaticism deliberately encouraged by cynical political forces.

For many years, the Israelis were pretty much unwilling to make many, if any, significant concessions. They annexed part of Jordan (The West Bank territory) after winning a war. Jordan sided with other Arab countries, and probably got what they deserved. The Israelis took over various other Arab lands due to concern over security. For example, artillery fire and missiles were launched from the Golan Heights, taken over by the Israelis when negotiations with Syria fell apart.

The Israeli attitude is partially due to outrage over legitimate grievances, partially to holocaust backlash, partially due to religious fanaticism, partially due to not wanting to give up anything they had won in the various wars with the Arabs.

Since about 1993, the Israelis have softened their position and have made significant concessions in the interests of obtaining a peaceful settlement. They have offered to give up significant territory. The Arab side has tended to be unyielding, accepting all concessions, conceding little, and now resorting to violence when o further concessions are being made.

While the Israelis do not have clean hands, the Arab side (except for Egypt) has never been willing to forgo its stated desire to wipe out the Israeli state. In particular, Arafat has never been willing to formally recognize Israeli's right to exist.

It looks to me as though the Israelis have made significant concessions in the interests of making peace, after many years of not willing to negotiate much. The Arabs seem to have viewed the concessions as a sign of weakness. Perhaps Arafat is merely afraid he will lose power & Big Bucks if a peaceful settlement occurs. Religious fanaticism on both sides is a serious problem.

Thanks for the background, etc. You always seem to have well thought out and concise posts. They are thought provoking (without being anger provoking) and a pleasure to read.

"Clinton will have to work on packaging a solution that could be presented as a different reality to each side. "

Where does the US president come into this? What makes it specifically his responsibility to suggest peaceful alternatives?

The US has been involved since WWII. They have relied on us for assistance, training, economic stabilization since that time in one form or another. Both leaders (Arafat and Sharon) have been meeting for peace summits hosted by our country and our tax dollars. It is not America's responsibility, we are assisting at the request of both leaders. Unfortunately, as you can see, the results have been less than satisfactory.

you "sound" pretty well informed with information regarding issues around that part of the world..
sent there in early 60's? damn you must be old :)
i am kidding, the older the wizer i guess :)


who promised that there will be a country called israel?
if it was back in the 1920
then werent Kurds promised a country of their own?
so that gives the kurds the right to fight for whats theirs..

and if you read history, kurdish roots go back to the ancient eqyptians..

i am a kurd, and i will fight for a free kurdistan any day
its my right to have the basic human rights, which kurds do not have, right to speech my language, learn my history, and right to follow my triditions
currently not available to most kurd in middle east

at least palestians have SOME rights

personally i think mr barak and arafat are the biggest losers of this century
they both have their palaces, and everything else they want
and who is getting hurt? of course the poor and the civiliant

thats the issue EVERYWHERE
what happened to saddam for wipping hundreds of thousands of kurds? what happened to him for invading kuwait? what happened to him for picking a war with Iran?
what happened to him for even picking a fight with US?
NOTHING
how many people (civiliants) died in these wars?

what happened to the prez of yoguzlavia? nothing

no matter HOW you go about it
civilians are the losers of the events

HARRW -
did ya miss the part where i said US is driven by israel? :)
top dog CLINTON is of course with listening to the underdog Barak and trying to come out with a peace deal that barak likes
if barak doesnt like it, bill will accuse arafat for not wanting peace


anyone read in London Times(or what ever the newspaper for london uk is)
that israel has built a genetic bomb?

Do you mean a biological weapon? It doesn't surprise me in the least, biological weapons are very cheap to manufacture and very effective. They also scare the heck out of everyone within range. The fact that it's a completely immoral way of waging war doesn't stop governments all over the world (not just Israel) from developing them. Governments still have colonies of Smallpox, years after it disappeared from public life, which exist purely to enable the manufacture of biological weapons.

HarryW, attitudes/opinions like the following amuse me.

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The fact that it's a completely immoral way of waging war....

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There is a moral way to wage war?

I like what Curt LeMay once said (paraphrase): "When you go to war, you commit yourself to killing thousands of people. Does is really matter whether you do it with a rusty knife or a nuclear weapons?"

The allies caused fire storms in Dresden & Cologne (& perhaps other German cities) during WWII. Many people burned to death. Others suffocated due to all the oxygen being used by the fire storm. Biological weapons could not be more horrible.

The effects of fire storms were predicted by the experts who proposed the idea. Hiroshima & Nagasaki were no worse, yet nuclear weapons have always been considered somehow worse than the fire storms.

Why are biological or chemical weapons worse that other ways of killling? The victims are dead no matter how it is done.

During the cold war the US military seriously considered the logistics and cost effectness of targeting civilian areas rather than military & industrial targets. The study was stopped amost immediately, because almost all of Russia's industrial & military targets were soo close to major population centers that you would get huge numbers of civilians anyway if you just targeted the military & industrial stuff. No moral objections to the idea sere ever raised

War just is not a moral way of solving problems. Perhaps necessary, perhaps cost effective (I doubt this), perhaps requiring less intelligence, but hard to justify as moral.

Your acting like the U.S. was the only country that did stuff such as "fire bombing".Germany did it in the battle of britain..they bombed civlian populated areas beacuse they couldnt beat the RAF (as i read in history books).

Saddam hussien used biological weapons on his own population of iraq(as i read in history books).

Joseph Stalin killed and or deported his own people in the second world war just because "They lived under german occupation".Especially the people of chechnya(as i read in history books).

Kovan, I think it was the British who promised or proposed that the jews be given a country of their own. I am not sure of this. I do know that the Zionist (return to Israel) movement dates back to the late 19th (maybe early 20th) century.

I do not know about any promises to the Kurds. I am aware of their plight.

Sophtware, yes: The Germans bombed civilian areas, but it was the Americans and British who invented the fire storm technique.

I did not mean to imply that the Americans were the only bad guys. I was trying to get across the point that while Americans are generally thought (at least by themselves) to be pretty good guys, their hands are not clean. I agree that Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, and various others are far worse that we wonderful Americans, who can do no wrong.

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Biological weapons could not be more horrible

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I strongly doubt this. I would consider dying over a period of days from a horrible disease to be worse than burning to death in several minutes.

I didn't mean to amuse you, but if you wish, laugh away.

When did i say the americans are all good warm toasty and wonderful??

Like eveyone..we have our **** ups too.

But we never tried to conquer the world.

But we never tried to conquer the world....

Says the United Nations watch-dog that steps in whenever it feels like it and only in those areas where it thinks it can get something in return.

What happened when Timor was in trouble? American couldn't really give a crap because there was nothing there of interest for them so they left it to the Australian's to do.

The only reason america went into Kuwait in the first place was because it stood to lose billions on all that oil and thought if it did good it could spin a deal for itself.

America spends more on defense a year than most other countries combined... What does that imply?

Leave the world to the men, they just ripped down. Leave the world to the women will have harmony and peace.

Love Wonder Woman.

Israel attacked after a mob broke into a Police Station and murder three of their soliders being held there. Targets were Police Stations, telecommunications centres, etc with advanced warning given of the attack. What do you expect the government of Israel to do? Stand back and allow extremists to murderd their citizens????

Jerusalem

This is sanctioned by the UN as an open city...not a part of Israel. Israel does not own this city. All settlements erected in the city are in violation of both UN and Tel Avi policies. The city is not the capital of Israel.

The city is also central to christian....main stream/greek orthodox/russian orthodox faith.

US Foreign Policy

The yanks have twice proven to be untrustworthy to Australia. During the East Timor crisis and in the 60s during the Papua New Guinea/Indonesia crisis.

I'm an Israeli and I have to point the fact that 90% of this dispute (war, if you will) is non-religious.
Palestinians found Israel's weak spot and they exploit it.
Israel had tried dozens of times to settle this dispute by giving back parts of lands which the Palestinians claim to be theirs, but no matter how much territory Israel gives back, they want more.
Even if Israel gives them back all the conquerred territory they will want more and will probably start another war.
I understand that the Palestinians want their lands back, but I also think they're pushing it.


[Edited by Sc0rp on 10-15-2000 at 10:31 PM]

I think one thing this discussion is highlighting is that BOTH sides are using religion when it suits their purposes.

We never tried to conquer the world...now sticking our nose in everybody's business..well that i cant argue that.

But answer me this...if my country doesnt stick it's nose in business like it does..who will keep the little peace that we have today?Think about it...if there wasnt someone keeping watch over what goes on..there would be another ADOLF hitler appear in some country and we would have another world war on our hands.

And you complain about us sticking our nose everywhere.. your country is part of the U.N right?Your country has a small part to do with what snooping goes on.

My country spends so much money on weapons development because we can...what do you expect gen? we lay our arms down so we can get invaded? What are you 4 years old gen-x?

No wait...you want my country too take the stupid way out of a confrontaion right?Like say we lay our arms down then when some other country comes storming in we tell them very nicely "Excuse me sir..we dont have our weapons..so you cant invade us!"

Complain as much as you want..your fantasy idea of peace and stability in the world will never come.

One more thing..you talk all this trash about how bad the U.S. is at what it calls "peace" well...all i have too say is nice work on the league of nations, and the treaty of versillas..that really help adolf hitler get into power.

Think before you start pointing fingers.

I am not saying my country is the "best" or "greatest" not at all... but i am pointing out that once again "we" all mess up.




"Still going for the ******* of the year award"

Sophtware

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Think about it...if there wasnt someone keeping watch over what goes on..there would be another ADOLF hitler appear in some country and we would have another world war on our hands

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Are you trying to say that the ONLY reason why the world isn't in another world war lead by a maniac is because of America?!?!?!?!?

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And you complain about us sticking our nose everywhere.. your country is part of the U.N right?Your country has a small part to do with what snooping goes on

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Yes our country is part of the UN, but we go where we are asked... and we certainly don't turn things down because it isn't economically beneficial to us.

We had to bail your butts out in both the 1st and 2nd world wars more than once ;) [This is a joke btw]

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My country spends so much money on weapons development because we can...what do you expect gen? we lay our arms down so we can get invaded? What are you 4 years old gen-x?

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I never said to lay them down.. I simply asked people to comment on what may be implied by the fact you spend so much on defense. Perhaps it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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No wait...you want my country too take the stupid way out of a confrontaion right?

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No I think your country is already doing that ;)

During the Gulf war America had the technology to end it quickly, cleanly and with very few casualties... but that would mean using your technological equipment. Instead America in its infant.. Oops I mean infinate wisdom decided it was a good chance to get rid of old ordinance and instead ended up killing more of their own people than the enemies did.

THAT is what I call stupid.

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Complain as much as you want..your fantasy idea of peace and stability in the world will never come.

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I never stated any idea of peace whatsoever.. So I wonder where you got that from? Ahhh.. I see... you are taking a common and typical American view of what the rest of the world "thinks" without validating that this is the case. Might have known ;)

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Think before you start pointing fingers.

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Hey, I'm not a member of the only nation on this earth to have dropped a nuclear weapon on innocent people. You want to talk "pointing fingers" then perhaps you should keep it off the big red one...

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I am not saying my country is the "best" or "greatest" not at all... but i am pointing out that once again "we" all mess up.

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And I am not saying that America is the "worst"... I am simply saying that it isn't as good as you all believe it is. From this end of the world you are seen as quick to forget your mistakes, all nacissistic when it comes to "claiming" the kudos and ultimately the only country anyone really wants a piece of in todays society. You see communists under every bed and think the whole world has jealous eyes at what you have.

Australia has a higher standard of living, less poverty, fewer crimes and a much nicer way of life... There is nothing in your country wort coveting at all as far as I am concerned... Except perhaps Hollywood... Australian films suck.

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"Still going for the ******* of the year award"

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Why is that? Simply because I have something to say about American's? Is that how it works... say anything bad about you and you are immediately an ignorant, unknowing, peace-loving *******?

No wonder the world thinks that the typical American has his head so far up his own butt sniffing it... he has been reading his own press for far too long.

I have nothing against American's.... I just personally dislike their attitude of believing in themselves too much. Your country has over 26 times our population and yet you can't even beat a few of our guys in a swimming pool... Go figure that one out ;p

[If you can't pick up the humour in this you deserve whatever happens as a result of your nickers getting in a knot]

Once again...i never say i think the u.s is so incredible and all that nonsense.

Also...the part that says "Going for ******* of the year" that is my personal quote you goof.

Maybe next time i should space it even more than it already was...oh but i figured you were smart enough too notice it..silly me..


And the reason why is said "pointing fingers" thing..is because...frankly gen-x you think your country is a godsend..i have never read any words from you stating what went wrong in your country.And you are saying that all americans are "stuck up" damn...why dont you start reading what I type down.

Also..you want too brag about sports...ok fine..get your best basketball players and my country will get ours..and we will see who "loses"..and dont say "wellyou won because that is a u.s. sport" because other countries play it as well.

"nickers in a knot" one day gen..you are going too have to explain too me what you mean by that.

And i am an ******* because i choose too be, not because i am an american.Please gen steryotypes do not fit you.

haha you seem to know so much about my country..haha yet haha you have such a problem for us. HAHAHAHAHAHA
If there was a person i didnt like ..i sure as well wouldnt get to know them. And dont give me any of that "Keep your friends close..but your enemies closer crap"

If you have such a problem with my country..then stop talking about it!!! plain and simple...you dont see me whining and bitching about what australia does..i could care less.



B.T.W. Good job on disecting my last post gen..you must have the skill of a surgeon.


Just for you gen



































My quote:


"Still going for the ******* of the year award"


Now do you get it?Do you understand that everything i say is not about you?

Sophtware

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Also...the part that says "Going for ******* of the year" that is my personal quote you goof.

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Sorry... my fault. I just assumed that like 99.9999% of other people if it was your personal quote it would have been seperated by a line... Sorry I didn't realise you were the exception ;)

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And the reason why is said "pointing fingers" thing..is because...frankly gen-x you think your country is a godsend..i have never read any words from you stating what went wrong in your country.And you are saying that all americans are "stuck up" damn...why dont you start reading what I type down.

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Funny that...

Might want to read this:
http://forums.vb-world.net/showthrea...threadid=30651

I have posted smatterings elsewhere...
http://forums.vb-world.net/showthrea...threadid=18278

There are others but you would have to look.

Care to take it back? or are you too much of a self-proclaimed ******* to admit when you make a mistake? ;)

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Also..you want too brag about sports...ok fine..get your best basketball players and my country will get ours..and we will see who "loses"..and dont say "wellyou won because that is a u.s. sport" because other countries play it as well

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Like I said you have 26 times the population we do and we STILL came 3rd/4th in the world. That means for every 1 magic Johnson we had you should be able to produce 26... Not very fair if you ask me ;)

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"nickers in a knot" one day gen..you are going too have to explain too me what you mean by that

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Australian Colloquialism. Too hard to explain :)

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If you have such a problem with my country..then stop talking about it!!! plain and simple...you dont see me whining and bitching about what australia does..i could care less.

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Easily explained.

1. You are too full of yourself to think about any other country but your own :)

2. Australia doesn't DO things as stupid as the Americans and when we DO we do them locally.

Umm no i wont take back what i said...especially when it involves you dear enemey.Hehehe , gen what are you trying to be my mother? you seem to have a problem with me being an *******.;)

If it wasnt for your disecting of mine/ or anyone's else's post...would you have anything actually too say?
"POP" ...wooah..hey gen!! yoour head poped out of your ass again!!

Gen?? was the space i provided between my message and quote enough for you too understand?Or do i need to bring out the flash cards?Now dude i know your soooo intelligent in all so i will get into detail with it this time


See here gen...i stop postimg my message here.














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"Still going for ******* of the year"


Small little message:

Unlike you gen..i can look at my ass without having too actually stick my head up it;)

:);)