Intelligence.

Perhaps some people here can help me.

I have a "discussion" going on in another place where some people are attempting to say that genetics has very little to play in how intelligent a person is.

They then go on to say that a person can learn "ANYTHING" providing they worked hard enough and long enough at it.

I tried to tell them that just as our physical body has limits to how much it can lift, so does our brain have mental limits as to how much and what it can know... yet they seem oblivious to this fact.

Some people are just STUPID and no matter how much they try they can know every little detail, and know how it works, but they still dont know what it really means. Like they just memorize everything and still have no clue what it means or what it does.

True Gen-X.

But in the same way we can improve our physical capabilities through training, we can also improve our mental capabilities through studying.

Currently I think that anyone can "understand" (and that's the key word, not "know") something given enough time studying it.

Unfortunately there are limits to this. To teach someone with an IQ of 80, relativity theory so they *understand* it is likely to take four times longer than their life. Not really practicle.

What do you think?

Gen-X

Intelligence is a tough cookie. I personally fell that there are too many factors involved for us to safely say for sure how much of a role genetics really plays.

While genetics undoubtedly plays a role, i think there are other factors that have to be taken into account. It is going to be hard to explain my view on the matter, because all of these factors contribute to the end result, and the difference in one of these factors may well change how much the other factors affect you.


Upbringing

How you are brought up as a child is very important. The amount of encouragement you get, how many loving words you receive if you do something right is very important. People have just been cottoning on to this, and now you will see in guidebooks everywhere on how to start bringing up a child, that you should be constantly encouraging the child, telling them when they are clever, etc.

If you are told often enough that you are stupid, and you are never going to amount to anything, you will probably start believing it. Defeatism is a big problem i think, and while i hate the phrase Positive Mental Attitude, ever since Mr Bloody Motivator cheesified it, it is the correct way of thinking. Start thinking that you will lose, and you probably will.


The environment in which we live

I feel this has a big role to play as well, particularly in school. How you behave in your school is, i think, directly related to your initial upbringing. Having myself been at both a public school, and a grammar school, i have seen the difference. At public schools you are often ridiculed for having some grey matter. So you have two choices. You either lower yourself to their level to try and fit in, or you find someone else to be friends with. Often the second choice means even more humiliation.

Now while some of these bullies often appear to have little intelligence, some of them do. This is where i think the upbringing comes in. Some of these kids, do have some brains on them, its just that they have been told they don't, and so they resort to physical abuse of other people.

Now on to the grammar schools. I wont deny that bullying goes on in grammar schools, it still does even though we know that everyone is quite intelligent. There is still the bullying of the really intelligent ones, by the not so intelligent ones. Though i think this is a self defence mechanism more than anything else.

I don't think people get better results at grammar schools just because the are more intelligent, i think it is because they know they are. It is a spin off on the encouraging people rule. Because they are at a grammar school, they know they are intelligent, and the teachers usually encourage you a lot more. Even if in my case it was always, "I know you can do better than that Iain".


The type of person you are

Following on again. The type of person you are, and the way your mind works obviously affects your intelligence. Just to confuse matters, this can contradict the last two factors. I remember my chemistry teacher taking a great disliking to me. This was probably because i was the worlds laziest kid at the time. I had not revised for my mock chemistry exam, and thus got an N. As this was a grammar school, they don't like people failing. It looks bad on their record. So my chemistry teacher asked me to drop the subject, and concentrate on my other two subjects. They felt that i was never going to pass, while i knew that my result in the mock exam was not a fair representation of my abilities. So i politely told them that i would not be dropping the subject, and proceeded to get a C just to annoy them, but maybe that is just me. After being told that i would never pass it, defeatism remember, i made sure i did pass it just to spite them, which is maybe what they wanted anyway.

On the other hand, other people did drop the subject, and i am sure if they had continued on they would have passed it. But being told by your Chemistry teacher that you are going to fail is not helpful. Teachers supposedly know what they are doing, so we usually believe them. This was the only problem i had with the grammar. It was a good school, and they were usually very good with the students, but when it came down to it, they were more worried about their reputation, than the grade you got.


Your interest in the subject

This is defiantly a big one. If you love the subject you are studying, you are much more likely to excel, than if you cant abide it. Back to me again, sorry. I love programming. Pure and simple, i have always known that i wanted to be a programmer. So naturally i choose Computer Science at A-Level, and because i loved the subject so much, it was a breeze to pass, unlike the chemistry. ;)


Anyway, enough of that insane rambling. To get to the point, finally, yes i do believe there is a limit to everyone's intelligence, and i believe it is based on any number of factors, genetics only being the tip of the iceberg. Of course, it all depends on how you define intelligence as well.

Ahh, a classic nature vs. nurture debate. Personally I think that people have different natural aptitudes for different things, and general intelligence helps. I think intelligence is probably partially genetic. On top of that there's all the environmental factors that Iain detailed.

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Currently I think that anyone can "understand" (and that's the key word, not "know") something given enough time studying it.

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But I disagree. Not matter how hard some people study they will never understand quantum physic fully. I think the difference is between understanding and learning. You can learn the facts, formulas, and material of a subjuect, but never really understand why they work or the hows of them to really get a deep understanding of the material. That is a factor of intelligence. Most anyone can memorize, few can really understand some subjects. And genetics plays a big role in this. Though there is something to be said about environment and upbringing. But I think their role is much smaller, and serve only to bring the potential to its fullest, but cannot exceed its limits. To go back to the athletic example. I am not a fast runner. If I train hard, I can certainly improve my speed, but I will never be close to an Olympic class athlete who has far greater genetic potential than I.

well here is my theory
i think its a little of BOTH
i have 2 cousins
they are both brothers

he can remember things you tell him a year ago
he can describe things in such detail with JUST a glance
that if a person was to examine that thing and write down its description while looking at it, they would not describe it as this dude
of course he is an ABSOLUTE GENIOUS
now a brain surgeon somewhere sydney aussie.. but thats besides the point
he can solve problems in like no time

now we have his other brother...
he is smart... BUT he has LEARNED everything he knows
studies day and night, tries to figure out things based on books ect.. and he can remember but its all because he studies it so hard
i did a case study on them, and figured out that both of them know almost as much (however the guy who inherited smartness was a LITTLE more of a intelligent person..)
the dude that studies is has few friends(those are books)
and this other guy, can just look at a book for a little while and can tell you the whole damn story in it

so i wrote a LONG DAMN paper on this on how it is based on both genetics and ones mind to drive them to learn

now here is the funny part

i am their cousin...
how come i didnt inherit the genes of being a genious automatically... OR having the inspiration to learn?
sucks for me i tell ya
:)))))

If you want a little mixture of scientific findings, take this into consideration, a few years into the future (I'm sure they can somewhat now) parents can ask for physical features to be thrown into a test tube baby, such as blue eyes, or blonde hair, etc, etc, but this "Decision" often are difficult because parents will be wanting stuff like to make the baby smart, or atletic, or non-rebelious, or skinny, etc, you cannot determine someone's personality or intelects from genetics alone, they are too many factors involved, you have your inheirited qualities (From the genetics) you have your enviromental stimuli, along with many other things that come into play, I've been rated with having an IQ of anywhere between 129 to 140 depending on the type of test they give me, (120 on some test is the level of inteligence to be capable of graduating most colleges) , I've heard both that you IQ can change, but I've also heard some people say that your IQ is set permenet through out life, in either case, your IQ determines what you might be capable of , but only if the effort to do so is there, also many people with High IQ commonly have a low EQ (Common Sense).

Of course my question to you is, if IQ were so important, or if you could actually rate someone's level of inteligence before even letting them try the job, wouldnt it be discriminating to say that some corporation wont allow anyone with lower than a 130 IQ, despite that someone who has been tested with lower may in fact perform a job much better than those hired?

Why do you want to know what Inteligenced is determined by, when the only true form is through actions, your actions speaks louder than words(or numbers on a sheet of paper for that matter)

I wouldnt have the job in the field I wanted, if I didnt have the dedication to learn on my own time, and to have desire for it. so like Kovan says, you may be capable or incapable of a task, but you can not determine it until that indivisual actually tries for themselves, some may find the intrest, others may lack it.

I think how well you understand/learn something depends on how you like the subject, and how much time you spend actually thinking about it(not reading). And one more thing that I think determines how well you understand/learn something is who is teaching you, and how well you like the person.

For example, when I was in 7th grade I loved science(it was life science... DNA, Organisms,etc), I had a A+ in it(98%), the teacher was fun.... he made everything fun.. every friday we watched a movie, and every other week we played jeoperdy, which was like an oral quiz, if we won we got a homework pass(turn that in and you don't have to do your homework) the person with the highest grade got to be the tally person(took down the scores)... I was always the tally person, and the tally person always got a homework pass...
there were usually 5 teams of 4 people, the winning team got a homework pass(one each person).


and like I said I got a A+ in that class...

because it was really fun, and it was easy.

but I also took world history(I think), the teacher was a *****, I didnt like her, she was such a *****!
I really tried to get good grades in the class, but I hated the teacher so I got a very bad grade, something like 28%...
I also really hated the subject... It's a really easy subject, you just have to remember what happened some number of years ago, but I sucked at it, and the only conclusion I came to was because I didnt like it, and I hated the teacher.

and in english class(all of this has been 7th grade(2 yrs ago) BTW) I didnt like the teacher very much, but I didn't hate her, I got a C in that class....

and I have noticed a pattern that if somebody likes the teacher, it helps a lot in the grade they get.

another example, I used to take shop (teched) in middle school, I got an A+ all the time. and the teacher was really fun, Really fun... he made this really cool robot... :) <ahem> back to the subject... I also took Home Economics, I didnt like the teacher very much..... but just like in english, I didn't think she was a complete *****.. I got a C in the class also.


after seeing that happen for the past year.... I think that if you like your teacher and the subject, you will Ace the class... if not you won't..
usually if your taking math or something, you can't to anything 'bout the subject, but maybe you can change the teacher..... that might help you learn the subject...



and I agree with some of the other people, genetics does count a little, but not much.

because well.. my brother and my sister are idiots... I am not saying I am really smart, or a genious or anything, but I definatly consider myself above average intelligance..

and my brother and sister are a little below.
all my brother is worried about is being popular, although he is always making fun of people, then wondering why they don't like him.

and my sister, well I won't even start on her, but she is a recovering drug addict, and she is pretty much stupid, and psycho....

Thats all I have to say 'bout this right now......

In that same vein, I hated all my teachers all throughout high school. The classes were boring, the homework stupid, and the lessons pointless. So by your theory I should have failed miserably, or at the least squeaked by with a C. I got straight 'A's. Never one B nor C in all 4 years of high school.

Ok, your wierd then... thats the only thing I can think of ;)


but if your really determined to pass a class, you will, no matter of how much you hated it, and how much you hate the teachers... but I don't really like working hard....

:(

I have found you an also do badly if you really put your mind to it :)

I hated my GCSE German teacher at school, she was really po-faced and took everything way too seriously. I was determined that German wasn't going to be one of my good classes. German was a modular GCSE, split into 4 parts, with 56 marks going for each, each module split into 4 section: speaking, writing, listening and reading.

In the first 3 I got 48, 48, 47, and at that rate I needed about 30 in my final module to get an A. So at the end of the year I did no revision, skipped the oral exams, and turned up 15 minutes late for the rest of it - I got 27.5 and a B overall :)

The point is I didn't work hard. I can't remember one time where I brought a book home to study, or had homework at all. What work was assigned I did in class during lecture or before class the same day. I would say the classes were ridiculously easy, but I saw so many struggling in them. I don't come from a home that places heavy emphasis on studiousness. So I didn't study. I still passed. As did both my brothers and my sister. All had very good grades as well. (though not quite as high as me). I can't believe that genetics did not play a large role in this. We simply had the intelligence to grasp the material quickly. 2 out of 4 of us have superb memories. Games of trivial pursuit get quite interesting. I recall the last game had 4 teams. 3 of the teams had 3 members each and 1 team had just me. I won on the second turn. One other team was one question away from winning. It consisted of my brother(excellent memory and intellect), his girlfriend (sweet girl, dumb as a brick), and my cousin (umm lets just say smarts passed him by). I don't doubt that these traits are genetic. Since they seemed to cluster so much.

I appreciate your replies.

Funny enough nobody said that a person's ability to learn is unlimited, very reassuring.


I agree with some of you that just like exercising your body you can exercise your mind and increase whatever limit may have existed... but just like your body can't walk around carrying buildings (but some people can walk aroung carrying small cars) your brain has a limit to what it can hold or know.


Some of you mentioned Nurture and opportunities etc, etc. I agree wholeheartedly that these provide a bonus to your intelligence... but they are still based on what you were given as a result of genetics. If you were given an IQ of 20 then all the nurture, education, opportunity and willingness in the world isn't going to push you towards the average of 100.... just as if you were a 4' tall, 100lb weakling you are never going to be a Charles Atlas.


Now all I have to do is try and convince these crazy Americans of how obvious this is... though I fear the main person causing the fuss is doing so becaues he is not that intelligent and is scared to think he will not be a nuclear physicist one day :)

Isn't it amazing how people constantly are blinded to the truth because it harms them if they were to listen to it?

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Isn't it amazing how people constantly are blinded to the truth because it harms them if they were to listen to it?

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Everybody does that..... even me :(
I hate it when people do that, but I can't help doing it myself... :(
unfortunatly most things are like that.

It might be politically incorrect to say this, but genetic heritage has got to be incredibly important.

Those who are world class at anything were born with abilities the rest of us do not have (I am arrogant, but I know my limitations).

The water is muddied by the fact that a really bad environment can cripple either the mind, the body, or both. I am sure that a well designed terrible enviroment could make both Einstein and Michael Jordan into clumsy idiots.

The problem is that the converse is just not true. The mental giants and superstar athletes were born with abilities the rest of us just do not have.

Intelligence, artistic ability, and various other mental capabilities are hard to define, let alone quantify. Howeve, all the human abilities that can be defined and quantified seem to have a big genetic component.

Anybody who thinks that the right environment could have made him/her a superstar in science, art, or sports is either arrogant or stupid.

I knew a genius when I was a teenager. They are different from us, and it shows up early. Think of Mozart: He was composing & playing brilliantly when he was 6 or 7.

As everithing that has to do with genetics, BOTH factors are important. Consider a boy born with great athletic capabilities, but bad feeding and lack of physical training will make him a whippersnapper.

They both may be important but they are different.

ONE is the deciding factor and the other is the modifier.

Without Genetics you are nothing... so no amount of nurture/environment etc is going to change that.

Without an environmental factor you are exactly what your genetics said you would be.

So while nurture plays are roll in modifying that which genetics blessed you with it isn't the one that takes the cake.

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if Only Intelectual capabilities was just as an attrative/desired standard as Athleates are for their physical capabilities.

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yeah, I would be the most popular kid in school ;)