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I have this bit in my page:
It sizes perfectly in IE, but in Mozilla, its only about 25% of the width, rather than 100%.Code:<table border="0" style="width: 100%;">
<tr>
<td align="right" style="width: 8%;">1. </td>
<td style="width: 92%;">
<input class="formfield" type="file" name="F[]" style="width: 100%;" />
</td>
</tr>
</table>
All other input types seem to work fine, though?
Here's a screen shot of what it DOES do. It seems like the color scheme (the background gray color) does go 100%, but the field itself doesn't? :confused:
http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.p...postid=1499902
and the only explaination I have right now is that the file box is mostly controlled by the OS so since IE is so intergrated into the OS and mozilla is not it won't work like it should.
Quite the opposite. No controls of Mozilla are integrated into any OS as a consequence of the platform independence.
The reason that it doesn't work is that Mozilla doesn't allow file upload boxes to be styled for security reasons, so that you cannot even attempt to disguise them somehow. Since the upload box is the only way for a proper page to access your harddisk, it must be clearly visible and known to be what it is.
if that the case then why does it act just like the one in IE, example is you cannot change the button (words) or the style (color)? also on select boxes, as in IE, you cannot cahnge the style or the z-index of it. that also is controlled by the OS.
and where did you learn of this? not saying you are wrong but just wanted some proof before I make my judgement.
I'm not 100% sure of the not-OS-bound part, it was just a guess. I have the Moz code here, so I could probably look it up, given some time.
I read the other on a CSS mailing list (css-discuss).
Well that really cramps the style of my page. I guess Mozilla users will just have to deal.
Leave the HTML forum and never come back.Quote:
Originally posted by phpman
if that the case then why does it act just like the one in IE, example is you cannot change the button (words) or the style (color)? also on select boxes, as in IE, you cannot cahnge the style or the z-index of it. that also is controlled by the OS.
and where did you learn of this? not saying you are wrong but just wanted some proof before I make my judgement.
None of this is controlled by the OS. If it was, that would be incredibly stupid.
The Browser renders everything and then displays it. IE just happens to have THE WORST rendering engine out of any new browsers on this planet. That and quirks mode just ruins everything.
Now, as to the question of the poster, remove the decpriate tags (align= right, border="0") and replace those with CSS. It would also help to post the code for the class "formfield"
This is correctQuote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
Quite the opposite. No controls of Mozilla are integrated into any OS as a consequence of the platform independence.
I have no idea *** you're trying to say here....Quote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
The reason that it doesn't work is that Mozilla doesn't allow file upload boxes to be styled for security reasons, so that you cannot even attempt to disguise them somehow. Since the upload box is the only way for a proper page to access your harddisk, it must be clearly visible and known to be what it is.
No, this is wrongQuote:
Originally posted by phpman
and the only explaination I have right now is that the file box is mostly controlled by the OS so since IE is so intergrated into the OS and mozilla is not it won't work like it should.
He's saying that Mozilla does not allow you to change the style of a input filebox for security reasons. If you could hide it or disguise it, then your form could upload a file off the users computer without them knowing.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
I have no idea *** you're trying to say here....
You can hide input boxes as is.....Quote:
Originally posted by The Hobo
He's saying that Mozilla does not allow you to change the style of a input filebox for security reasons. If you could hide it or disguise it, then your form could upload a file off the users computer without them knowing.
It's impossible unless you install something onto someone's system, to upload there files without there knowledge.
As to your first sentence: what?Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
You can hide input boxes as is.....
It's impossible unless you install something onto someone's system, to upload there files without there knowledge.
If you COULD hide a file input box, and set a default value, then you COULD upload a file without a user knowing.
What CB was saying is that Mozilla doesn't allow you to change the style so that you CAN'T do it.
You can hide input boxes. IE just has tons of propriatar crap.Quote:
Originally posted by The Hobo
As to your first sentence: what?
If you COULD hide a file input box, and set a default value, then you COULD upload a file without a user knowing.
What CB was saying is that Mozilla doesn't allow you to change the style so that you CAN'T do it.
I was just trying to explain what CornedBee was saying. I'm not debating you.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
You can hide input boxes. IE just has tons of propriatar crap.
Do you have an answer for my question? How can I make the width thing work?
no, it is you that needs to leave. come and try to prove me wrong. until you prove me wrong and show us all how it is done, I will bow to your excellence. but until then get on your knees and bow to me. :mad:Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
Leave the HTML forum and never come back.
None of this is controlled by the OS. If it was, that would be incredibly stupid.
The Browser renders everything and then displays it. IE just happens to have THE WORST rendering engine out of any new browsers on this planet. That and quirks mode just ruins everything.
Now, as to the question of the poster, remove the decpriate tags (align= right, border="0") and replace those with CSS. It would also help to post the code for the class "formfield"
http://www.webreference.com/dhtml/diner/seethru/ :Quote:
When HTML first introduced the use of forms, it called upon already-existing controls within the operating system to display form elements. A checkbox, a text input, a drop-down SELECT menu, or any other form element, was created by placing the operating system's built-in checkbox, text input, or menu in a Web page. That is, although they are called through HTML, they are not created by HTML, as say, a heading or a paragraph is. The easiest way to prove this is to view form elements on different platforms. They always correspond to the platform standard, not to anything you have coded.
oh and just to add to it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...cts/select.asp
scroll down until you hit the remarks section and you will see.
Quote:
This element is a windowed control and does not support the z-index attribute or zIndex property.
But I did prove you wrong, HTML elements are not OS dependant. The similar stylings are because they are standard. If they were OS dependant, don't you think Mac OSX would use shiney round buttons or something very stylish? No they don't (In IE).Quote:
Originally posted by phpman
no, it is you that needs to leave. come and try to prove me wrong. until you prove me wrong and show us all how it is done, I will bow to your excellence. but until then get on your knees and bow to me. :mad:
http://www.webreference.com/dhtml/diner/seethru/ :
You do realize that was in a VERY old version of HTML, correct?(Pertaining to your quote) Yeah... I doubt anyone uses that version of html anymore.
If HTML got elements from the OS, it would limit the Power of itself moreso, since Microsoft would basicly control everything.
Because it says windowed, you think it's part of windows? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by phpman
oh and just to add to it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...cts/select.asp
scroll down until you hit the remarks section and you will see.
Yeah, align is NOT deprecated for <td> and border is not deprecated for <table>. So I will not feel the need to change them.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
Now, as to the question of the poster, remove the decpriate tags (align= right, border="0") and replace those with CSS. It would also help to post the code for the class "formfield"
The code for class formfield simply specifies a background-color. With that removed, the problem still exists.
dude, what are you on. html4.0 is the same way. hell even XHTML1.1 is that way. and no you have not proven me wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
But I did prove you wrong, HTML elements are not OS dependant. The similar stylings are because they are standard. If they were OS dependant, don't you think Mac OSX would use shiney round buttons or something very stylish? No they don't (In IE).
You do realize that was in a VERY old version of HTML, correct?(Pertaining to your quote) Yeah... I doubt anyone uses that version of html anymore.
If HTML got elements from the OS, it would limit the Power of itself moreso, since Microsoft would basicly control everything.
still don't see code that proves me wrong.
They will become deprecated and there is absolutely no reason to use them in HTML anymore. Style sheets are a good thingQuote:
Originally posted by The Hobo
Yeah, align is NOT deprecated for <td> and border is not deprecated for <table>. So I will not feel the need to change them.
The code for class formfield simply specifies a background-color. With that removed, the problem still exists.
What kind of code could I give you to prove you wrong?Quote:
Originally posted by phpman
dude, what are you on. html4.0 is the same way. hell even XHTML1.1 is that way. and no you have not proven me wrong.
still don't see code that proves me wrong.
?Code:<Don't use OS components />
If I gave you any code other than what was given within this post, it would not prove either of us right or wrong, it just is rendered in other browsers.
There isn't a command that says don't use OS components and if there was, then it would make you right (which you are not).
The browser renders the code, the OS runs the browser, they don't work together much more than that (except IE since it's integrated into every ****ing thing in Windows)
What code to prove you wrong? I recommend
http://lxr.mozilla.org/
for such code.
And this:
Code:<button id="bla" name="bla" style="border-width: 5px;">
<ol><li>Reason 1</li>
<li>Reason 2</li>
<li>Reason 3</li></ol>
</button>
And you could try finding the control windows on a Mozilla-rendered page with Spy++. Good luck!
granted that page I posted first is a little old but there is still OS components that the browser reads. it may not be as much as that page says. BUTTON is not part of that code, can you show me a listbox that doesn't come from windows and it not flash? no you cannot.
I can give you 10,000 pages that say I am right, you have not said anything that says you are right.
the select and file box come from the OS, no buts about it. tell me why you can't color the scroll bar on a select box.... can't be done as it doesn't get run from the browser. yes the browser inserts it but it gets it from the OS.
Give me those 10000 pages.
I can guarantee to you, though, that the Mozilla edit box (<textare>) is NOT an OS component.
BTW, phpman, I find your debating style curious.
I have given you three good signs that the controls are not OS components, while you gave us a quote that says that in early versions of HTML form controls where matched to OS controls. Fine, but I don't care about early HTML versions.
In front of this evidence you posted this:
I'm really surprised, and, I must say, disgusted, at the attitude and ignorance you show.Quote:
I can give you 10,000 pages that say I am right, you have not said anything that says you are right.
To make my argument clearer, I'll repost your quote, but with a changed emphasis.
Overall I'm surprised about the apparent lack of knowledge or communication skills on the author's part. To say that controls are "called through HTML" or not "created by HTML", or that paragraphs are "created by HTML" is misleading at best. Paragraphs are pointed out by HTML, they are created by the page author and they are rendered and displayed by the browser. And as the requirements to styling have increased, browsers have taken over the task of drawing and managing controls too, as the OS-bound controls are simply not flexible enough - as demonstrated in my code snippet.Quote:
When HTML first introduced the use of forms, it called upon already-existing controls within the operating system to display form elements. A checkbox, a text input, a drop-down SELECT menu, or any other form element, was created by placing the operating system's built-in checkbox, text input, or menu in a Web page. That is, although they are called through HTML, they are not created by HTML, as say, a heading or a paragraph is. The easiest way to prove this is to view form elements on different platforms. They always correspond to the platform standard, not to anything you have coded.
They are a PART of HTML. That's all the reason I need to use them.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
They will become deprecated and there is absolutely no reason to use them in HTML anymore. Style sheets are a good thing
I use style sheets abundantly. But I also use HTML.
If you don't have a solution to my question, then bug off. I don't give a damn if border is going to be deprecated in the future or if controls are rendered by the OS or the browser.
If it'll make you happy and actually TRY to help me, here:
Code:<table style="border: 0px; width: 100%;">
<tr>
<td style="text-align: right; width: 8%;">1. </td>
<td style="width: 92%;">
<input type="file" name="F[]" style="width: 100%;" />
</td>
</tr>
</table>
I was just trying to tell you, jeeze.Quote:
Originally posted by The Hobo
They are a PART of HTML. That's all the reason I need to use them.
I use style sheets abundantly. But I also use HTML.
If you don't have a solution to my question, then bug off. I don't give a damn if border is going to be deprecated in the future or if controls are rendered by the OS or the browser.
[/code]
The <center> tag is in HTML, does that mean it still should be used?
What I am thinking is that, usually, the table rows want themselves to all be the same size, and the first 1 maybe limiting the other?Quote:
Originally posted by The Hobo
Code:<table style="border: 0px; width: 100%;">
<tr>
<td style="text-align: right; width: 8%;">1. </td>
<td style="width: 92%;">
<input type="file" name="F[]" style="width: 100%;" />
</td>
</tr>
</table>
Not exactly sure
<center> is deprecated. None of my code was. There's a difference.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
I was just trying to tell you, jeeze.
The <center> tag is in HTML, does that mean it still should be used?
Even with this:Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
What I am thinking is that, usually, the table rows want themselves to all be the same size, and the first 1 maybe limiting the other?
It still doesn't work. :confused:Code:<input type="file" name="F[]" style="width: 100%;" />
then you haven't read all of my posts.Quote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
To make my argument clearer, I'll repost your quote, but with a changed emphasis.
Overall I'm surprised about the apparent lack of knowledge or communication skills on the author's part. To say that controls are "called through HTML" or not "created by HTML", or that paragraphs are "created by HTML" is misleading at best. Paragraphs are pointed out by HTML, they are created by the page author and they are rendered and displayed by the browser. And as the requirements to styling have increased, browsers have taken over the task of drawing and managing controls too, as the OS-bound controls are simply not flexible enough - as demonstrated in my code snippet.
the only controls the browser loads that are windowed are SELECT and FILE. nothing else. not even the textarea. besides nothing was said about the textarea, only select and file input.Quote:
granted that page I posted first is a little old but there is still OS components that the browser reads. it may not be as much as that page says. BUTTON is not part of that code, can you show me a listbox that doesn't come from windows and it not flash? no you cannot.
I can give you 10,000 pages that say I am right, you have not said anything that says you are right.
the select and file box come from the OS, no buts about it. tell me why you can't color the scroll bar on a select box.... can't be done as it doesn't get run from the browser. yes the browser inserts it but it gets it from the OS.
search google for "windowed elements" and you will find those 10,000 pages that say the exact (or close to it) thing I have been saying here.
the SELECT and FILE input are not loaded by the browser. only called from. even the iframe was this way until IE5.5. now it is not a windowed element.
tell me why you can't change the text on the file input button if the browser has control..... it will always say "browse" and there is nothing you can do about it. if the browser had control of this why can't you change it. the fact that Hobo got the file box to stretch in IE is because IE is more intergrated with the OS, mozilla is not.
my arguing is done, this is not going anywhere and until you guys prove me wrong I will not post to this thread any longer.
hope you get it like you want Hobo. I bet you don't though.
Your arguing isn't going anywhere because you are wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by phpman
my arguing is done, this is not going anywhere and until you guys prove me wrong I will not post to this thread any longer.
The elements are rendered by the browser, not brought form the OS.
If it was brought by the OS, then web browsing experience would be different. Don't you know Mac OS would change things to look more fuity like they've done with everything else?
You are worng, this has been proven twice, it's 2 versus 1.
I fail to see any webpages that actually say elements within the current HTML and XHTML are brought from the OS.
A quick trip to www.w3c.org can teach you about the standards :)
I don't see how quoting your own statements that you have not supported by anything is in any way relevant to this, um, discussion.
I also notice that you apparently have neither tried the code I gave you, nor acknolewdged the fact that HTML needs a browser to be displayed, so HTML is doing nothing at all.
In this thread, I've read all.Quote:
then you haven't read all of my posts.
Just a repitition of what you said earlier. Repeating yourself doesn't back up your point.Quote:
granted that page I posted first is a little old but there is still OS components that the browser reads
What do you mean by that? Download and install Mozilla, then go to any page with a list box. There you have one that doesn't come from the OS and is not flash. And very likely it's the same for IE.Quote:
can you show me a listbox that doesn't come from windows and it not flash?
Alright, no buts. You are simply wrong, there don't need be any buts.Quote:
the select and file box come from the OS, no buts about it
This just proves your limited view of the web. You can't color ANY scroll bars unless you use IE's proprietary extensions. As for the reason why IE cannot - who knows? Have you seen IE's source code?Quote:
tell me why you can't color the scroll bar on a select box....
Incidently, there is no OS file control. Isn't it funny?Quote:
the only controls the browser loads that are windowed are SELECT and FILE
If you want something like the file input field you must combine an edit field and a button with the localized form of "Browse..." on it. And why are you so sure about the select?
And what exactly do you mean by "load"?
Errm - because the browser doesn't give YOU control?Quote:
tell me why you can't change the text on the file input button if the browser has control..... it will always say "browse" and there is nothing you can do about it. if the browser had control of this why can't you change it.
Why can't you put a style on an image so that it gets displayed upside down? The browser could, so why can't you? Or is an image an OS-controlled thing too?
No, I won't. Give me a link.Quote:
search google for "windowed elements"
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52500Quote:
the fact that Hobo got the file box to stretch in IE is because IE is more intergrated with the OS, mozilla is not.
Actually I was wrong about the security issue. It is raised in this thread, but the main issue seems to be unclearness on the part of W3C and mozilla.org's unwillingness to break their standards compliance. However, this doesn't contradict my point at all.
Maybe it's better that way. How about not posting in this forum any longer?Quote:
my arguing is done, this is not going anywhere and until you guys prove me wrong I will not post to this thread any longer.
since you are so lazy in finding the answer I guess I have to show you I am not the only one that thinks (knows) this.
http://vindaloo.milonic.co.uk/piperm...ry/001043.html
look at the date on that one, hmm 2003. :rolleyes:
http://microsoft.ease.lsoft.com/scri...D=0&T=0&P=3989
http://dbforums.com/t433735.html
11,900 other sites that say the same as I do
http://intranetjournal.com/ix/msg/35219.html
that code you supplied is a regular button, it proves nothing. wow you created a button good for you. now advance to the intermediate level of html.
seems to me that it is 11,901 to 2 :rolleyes:
but again I bet you say everyone is wrong.
tell me the definition of a windowed control (ie. windowed element)
Ok, this actually clears things up a bit.
Apparently there's no score between us as we were talking about different things. I wasn't talking about IE alone, which is pure crap IMHO. I must admit, though, that you have beaten kasracer to what he said - or not!
You see, while you are right that the select box (unlike the file input, at least in IE6) is indeed a window of its own, it is not the OS-supplied combo box, but instead one that comes with Internet Explorer. This explains why it can be styled to some extent (color etc., for the OS-supplied combo box this would mean subclassing the combo box and catching WM_PAINT, effectivly creating a new control), but also why z-index doesn't affect it. A window is always in front of or behind its parent. There can't be anything in-between.
The file input however is drawn like a text field and a button together would be in IE and Mozilla.
So, kasracer is correct with this:
But you are correct to call <select> in IE a "windowed control". I believe it's the only one though. And the common definition of "windowed control" (=brought from the OS) is wrong, a correct definition is "residing in its own window".Quote:
The elements are rendered by the browser, not brought form the OS.
I hope this is settled then.
I can't even get though this entire thread before I want to find a global ignore button for kasracer.Quote:
Originally posted by kasracer
But I did prove you wrong, HTML elements are not OS dependant. The similar stylings are because they are standard. If they were OS dependant, don't you think Mac OSX would use shiney round buttons or something very stylish? No they don't (In IE).
You do realize that was in a VERY old version of HTML, correct?(Pertaining to your quote) Yeah... I doubt anyone uses that version of html anymore.
If HTML got elements from the OS, it would limit the Power of itself moreso, since Microsoft would basicly control everything.
First off, the UAs (User Agents, meaning web browsers) are free to display input elements in any way they want. It does not, in any way what so ever, rely on the OS.
And example: IE has always used round radio buttons, because round radio buttons are what MS has always used everywhere else. Don't be confused in thinking that IE is limited to round radio buttons just because Windows uses round radio buttons, BECAUSE... other browsers that currently run on Windows (Mosaic, Mozilla variants) use diamond shaped radio buttons.
The lesson is, the UA can display an input element in any way it wants. You have limited control over how a UA displays input elements because of accessibility. You are the user, and you expect your radio buttons to show up a certain way, so that you know they are radio buttons and not check boxes.
Having said all of this, it is very likely that any browser you use in the future on Windows will always have round radio buttons because the OS has an open API and browsers don't need to rewrite the code to visually build a radio button. But if they wanted to, they are free to. There are no standards saying radio buttons must be round.
But wait, you say... IE will let me change the color of various inputs or controls that Mozilla won't... this is because IE is less concerned about user accessibility than Mozilla is. Mozilla could let you do the same as IE, they just chose not to. There are actually a few cases when even Mozilla has screwed accessibility, but I won't get into that.
Now I hope most of this was resolved already and I'm just repeating what others have said. I couldn't get though it all because kasracer just bugged me so much.
But Travis, not even IE uses the OS radio button. It only uses the same look.
So, I gather from the link that CB gave that this is a known issue with Mozilla, yet they don't know what to do about it since it isn't clear how it should be handled in the in the standards?
So, basically, there is nothing I can do?
I don't understand why I can set a border or partial background-color, but I can't specify a width.
Just doesn't seem right. But...oh well.