[Resolved] Building a PC - Part 2: The Motherboard

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May 25th, 2003, 09:35 PM
The Hobo

[Resolved] Building a PC - Part 2: The Motherboard

I'm continuing my quest to build a PC.

As I stated in the first thread (located here), I've put together plenty of PCs in my life, but I've never had to actually pick out and buy the parts myself. They were provided to me.

I've already bought this case, and am planning to buy a new part for it every 2-4 weeks, due to budget constraints.

So now that I've gotten a pretty good idea what kind of power supply I need, I thought I'd start trying to understand motherboards.

I'm looking on www.newegg.com right now, and all of the options and such are quite confusing to me.

So I have a few questions...

[list=1][*]Should I go with an AMD or Intel motherboard? What are the pros and cons of each? What are some good types of motherboards for your recommendation?[*]What are the differences between CPU socket types?[*]What's hard drive ATA and what's good/what isn't?[*]I pretty much have a grasp on the memory differences. I had planned to go with DDR DIMM. Thoughts?[*]What is North Bridge and South Bridge chipset?[*]Onboard LAN, Audio, and Video?[*]Hard drive interface? What's better, IDE or SCSI? Is SCSI just Intel?[*]ATX or MicroATX? I believe my case supports both, but what's the difference?[*]What's RAID?[*]AGP, ISA, PCI, and other slots? Huh?[/list=1]

I really don't understand much of this stuff, so any help you can provide is muchly appreciated.
May 25th, 2003, 09:55 PM
siyan

Re: Building a PC - Part 2: The Motherboard

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hobo
So I have a few questions...

[list=1][*]Should I go with an AMD or Intel motherboard? What are the pros and cons of each? What are some good types of motherboards for your recommendation?[*]What are the differences between CPU socket types?[*]What's hard drive ATA and what's good/what isn't?[*]I pretty much have a grasp on the memory differences. I had planned to go with DDR DIMM. Thoughts?[*]What is North Bridge and South Bridge chipset?[*]Onboard LAN, Audio, and Video?[*]Hard drive interface? What's better, IDE or SCSI? Is SCSI just Intel?[*]ATX or MicroATX? I believe my case supports both, but what's the difference?[*]What's RAID?[*]AGP, ISA, PCI, and other slots? Huh?[/list=1]

I really don't understand much of this stuff, so any help you can provide is muchly appreciated.

1. You buy Intel or AMD platform motherboards based on what CPU you choose. Decide on the CPU first, then on the motherboard. However be warned that AMD motherboards are typically a LOT cheaper than their Intel counterparts, especially the new Springdale/Canterwood based motherboards. nForce 2 is dirt cheap now.

I'd go with AMD + nForce 2 based motherboard. Which one exactly depends on what you want and your budget.

2. CPU socket types are dependent on the CPU itself. Don't worry as you'll likely be buying a Athlon XP or a P4, and so long as you buy a compatable motherboard there is no way to "get the wrong socket type." This is especially true with Athlons, since the socket type hasn't changed since the good ol Athlon Thunderbird days (I have two at the moment :))

3. ATA is just a drive-device communications standard. Good is ATA-133 (133 refers to the maximum theoretical transfer speed in MB), better is SATA-150. Best of course would be Ultra320 RAID...but that costs a ton, generates too much heat, and takes too much space.

4. Get DDR 2700 at least, and 3200 if you can afford it. Avoid sketchy brands of memory. If you're dying for "cheap but good" memory then get Samsung.

You may be tempted by the low prices on Kingston HyperX. I've heard that they have issues with nForce 2 boards....but I can't say either way. Still, play it safe.

If you are overclocking, then go with the o/c specific memory (Corsair XMS, etc etc)

5. The NB + SB are just part of the chipset that the motherboard uses (essentially this determines which platform the motherboard supports, and thus which CPU it uses). The most common chipsets in use are nVidia's nForce 2, VIA's KT400, SIS's 655 (something like that), Intel 845 (I believe), and now Springdale should be heating up.

As to what the NB and SB do...
NB - interface between CPU, Memory, AGP
SB - essentially runs the PCI bus (IDE devices, onboard audio/LAN, PCI slots, etc)

(I'm trying to remember off the top of my head...but its not too important anyways)

6. Onboard LAN is nice (especially on Springdale/Canterwood/nForce 2) as it saves you money and a PCI slot. Onboard Audio is nice on some new Springdale boards and any SoundStorm certified nForce 2 board. Its cheap and it works well (I'd take any recent AC97 2.2 DSP over the SBLive, believe it or not).

Onboard video, however, is the plague.

7. SCSI is superior in almost every way, but its expensive. Unless you have cash to blow or need lighting fast disk access, get IDE.

SCSI is not Intel specific.

8. ATX and mATX just refer to the size of the board. Almost every decent motherboard is ATX-sized.

9. RAID ("Redundant Array of Independent Drives") is a method of using multiple physical disks, "merging" them into one logical volume, and reaping the benefits of data security / access speed / both. The most common variations of RAID are:

Mirrored RAID - data is written identically to N drives, thus providing more data-security (if one drive goes dead, you still have N-1 drives to rely on). Read speed is theoretically increased by a factor of N. Write speed is a tad slower usually.

Striped RAID - data is written "across" N drives, IE the 1st block of a file is written to drive 1, the 2nd block to drive 2, etc etc. This decreases the security of the system (lose one drive and your whole setup is nerfed), but increases both read and write speed by a factor of N.

Stripe-Mirrored RAID - essentially a mixture, using at least 4 drives. Think of it as a Striped RAID setup that is mirrored.

RAID 5 - this is "good" RAID, used usually with 3 drives. Block 1 is written to drive 1, Block 2 to drive 2, and the XOR checksum to drive 3. Block 3 is written to drive 2, block 4 to drive 3, XOR checksum to drive 1, etc. Read and write speeds both increase, and if one drive dies, the system is still safe (2 drives = death though). Eats up CPU time unless you have a good hardware RAID5 controller.

whew.

10. AGP is for all (decent) graphics cards.
PCI is for most other things (sound cards, network, TV, etc)
ISA is an archaic bus type. Don't even think about it.

Other slots include CNR, AMR, and that stuff. Generally useless.
May 25th, 2003, 10:20 PM
Sastraxi

If you want a good nForce2, I recommend Soltek's 75FRN2-L, or EpoX's 8RDA+, both nice and cheap I believe, with Soltek being the cheaper option. What you planning to run on this thing, and what's your price range? I suppose, though, that will come later :)

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...tby=14&order=1
May 25th, 2003, 10:24 PM
The Hobo

I'm hoping that I wont go over $500, including the monitor. Please don't laugh at me if I'm being too hopeful.
May 25th, 2003, 10:26 PM
The Hobo

By the way, thanks for giving me the run-down, siyan.
May 25th, 2003, 10:59 PM
The Hobo

A couple more questions:

What's a good AMD processor, and if I get Anthlon XP, do I have to run XP with it? I don't plan on running XP, so that wouldn't work out.
May 26th, 2003, 06:57 AM
Sastraxi

No, that XP is completely different. I have Linux running on mine, and everything else does. WinXP stands for Windows Experience, the XP in the Athlon XP stands for Extra Power or somit like that.
May 26th, 2003, 07:03 AM
Sastraxi

Just to let you know, NewEgg has great prices on ABIT's KD7-E (same mobo I have), and a T-Bred XP1700+. I believe it's a B core, which means it can be overclocked without hassle (or fear!); its also the cheapest XP, so why not?

Numbers:
N82E16813127142 - Abit KD7-E
N82E16819103351 - AMD T-Bred Athlon XP 1700+
May 26th, 2003, 07:47 AM
parksie

As regards the RAID...it's not "RAID" if it's onboard, it's a support chip for software RAID, requiring driver support in the OS. Real RAID shouldn't need it.

But even with no drivers, you can use it as an extra IDE controller, so they're worth having.
May 26th, 2003, 08:33 AM
siyan

Under $500 USD is easy, even with a monitor (although you don't expect to get a very good monitor do you?)

Off the top of my head, you can probably get..

Athlon 1700
Soltek 75FRN2-L
512MB Samsung or equivalent PC2700
80GB HD (2Mb buffer)
Radeon 8500/9100 64MB
Cheap 17" monitor

while keeping it under $500.

That system will be just fine for most things, and the CPU is very o/c-able even on the stock retail HSF. (you won't likely hit 2Ghz on it though without better cooling...)

Then dig around for a cheap keyboard/mouse combo, and some speakers I guess...
May 26th, 2003, 08:33 AM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by parksie
As regards the RAID...it's not "RAID" if it's onboard, it's a support chip for software RAID, requiring driver support in the OS. Real RAID shouldn't need it.

But even with no drivers, you can use it as an extra IDE controller, so they're worth having.

Yeah, there worth more as extra IDE controllers than RAID controllers, since you can't do partition-level RAID with them I believe....
May 26th, 2003, 08:39 AM
parksie

The one on mine doesn't seem to let you, no. But it works perfectly as an extra two IDE channels....which I really do need :D
May 26th, 2003, 08:41 AM
siyan

Yep I still have an Asus A7V with an extra controller...apparently it can be modded into RAID or SCSI (!!!) but I have no need for it....

But putting each drive on its own channel is always good. :)
May 26th, 2003, 11:50 AM
The Hobo

How about these:

Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=13-180-028
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-334

:confused:
May 26th, 2003, 11:52 AM
Edneeis

Quote:

Originally posted by parksie
As regards the RAID...it's not "RAID" if it's onboard, it's a support chip for software RAID, requiring driver support in the OS. Real RAID shouldn't need it.

But even with no drivers, you can use it as an extra IDE controller, so they're worth having.

The onboard RAID controllers aren't software RAID though they have an embedded RAID controller on the mobo, at least mine did. Even external RAID controllers need drivers, although the drivers for the common ones are included with the os.

One good thing about getting something like an nForce2 is that later you can get a better cpu and crank some better performance out of it.

The mobo looks good but you should get a CPU with a 333Mhz front side bus (FSB). I'd recommend this one: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-379
May 26th, 2003, 02:40 PM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by Edneeis
The onboard RAID controllers aren't software RAID though they have an embedded RAID controller on the mobo, at least mine did. Even external RAID controllers need drivers, although the drivers for the common ones are included with the os.

The mobo looks good but you should get a CPU with a 333Mhz front side bus (FSB). I'd recommend this one: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-379

1. RAID controllers seen on most motherboards these days defer calculations off to the CPU (thus, they are software RAID).

2. The 1700+ Tbred B can probably do a cold boot to 166 straight out of the box, so getting an expensive "official" 333FSB CPU is a bit of a waste, esp. on a tight budget.
May 26th, 2003, 02:42 PM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hobo
How about these:

Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=13-180-028
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-334

:confused:

Get the XP 1700 Tbred B. Its $42 and will o/c past 2200+.
May 26th, 2003, 02:49 PM
Sastraxi

Plus, you needn't do anything but set it as a "2200+ chip" in the BIOS if it has such predefined configurations, which I believe Soltek mobos usually have (as does my ABIT).
May 26th, 2003, 02:55 PM
Edneeis

Quote:

Originally posted by siyan
1. RAID controllers seen on most motherboards these days defer calculations off to the CPU (thus, they are software RAID).

2. The 1700+ Tbred B can probably do a cold boot to 166 straight out of the box, so getting an expensive "official" 333FSB CPU is a bit of a waste, esp. on a tight budget.

The onboards do have a chip to handle the RAID that is what is onboard although they do take more cpu power than some external cards, a software RAID would be using a program or Windows 2000 to simulate a RAID array. Oh well there is no sense arguing over it though. Here is some info from toms hardware:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20010906/index.html

http://www17.tomshardware.com/storag...112/index.html

http://www17.tomshardware.com/storag...023/index.html

Yes but you can also boot a Barton 333 at 400 and the speed is not the only issue the Barton has a bigger cache.
May 26th, 2003, 02:58 PM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by Edneeis
Yes but you can also boot a Barton 333 at 400 and the speed is not the only issue the Barton has a bigger cache.

You COULD, but the likelyhood of doing so on a Barton is slim. They o/c rather poorly.

The 1700+ can get up to 2800~3000 speeds on water I believe.

The bigger cache helps sometimes, but raw Mhz helps other times. And the Barton is more than double the cost, and since he's strapped for cash its probably better to go get the best value.
May 26th, 2003, 03:06 PM
Edneeis

I disagree especially since I'm running it like that now on my own system. It runs just fine at 400fsb on that same cpu from newegg. Also the CPU he had the link to was $75 and the barton was $95, only $20 difference.
May 26th, 2003, 03:23 PM
The Hobo

Alrighty

Cheaper really speaks to me, since I am trying to do this as cheap as possible.

I'm not really dying for speed, since I'm happy on the 800mhz I'm running now, and I don't know what FSB is, and figure "hey, ignorance is bliss." I do know it has something to do with memory, and the memory can only run as fast as the FSB or something like that. Clue me in if I'm wrong.

So right now, this is what I'm going with, unless convinced otherwise:

Case (already purchased): http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=11-156-018
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=13-180-028
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-351
Hard Drive: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=22-144-102
Memory: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=20-147-102

I'm still undecided with the power supply, so see my other thread to help me with that.
May 26th, 2003, 04:02 PM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by Edneeis
I disagree especially since I'm running it like that now on my own system. It runs just fine at 400fsb on that same cpu from newegg. Also the CPU he had the link to was $75 and the barton was $95, only $20 difference.

I was talking about the 1700.

And in any case, the 1700 will likely o/c as far if not farther than the 2500 Barton for less than half the cost. (For the difference you could get a nice HSF.)

If you've gotten a 2500 Barton to go to 400FSB without dropping the multiplier much then you're probably in the minority....
May 26th, 2003, 04:05 PM
siyan

Re: Alrighty

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hobo
Cheaper really speaks to me, since I am trying to do this as cheap as possible.

I'm not really dying for speed, since I'm happy on the 800mhz I'm running now, and I don't know what FSB is, and figure "hey, ignorance is bliss." I do know it has something to do with memory, and the memory can only run as fast as the FSB or something like that. Clue me in if I'm wrong.

So right now, this is what I'm going with, unless convinced otherwise:

Case (already purchased): http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=11-156-018
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=13-180-028
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=19-103-351
Hard Drive: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=22-144-102
Memory: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...ion=20-147-102

I'm still undecided with the power supply, so see my other thread to help me with that.

Motherboard/CPU look good.

The HD looks fine. Just make sure you look at Maxtor + Seagate as well and just buy the cheapest 80GB 7200RPM drive you can.

Memory...eeeh sounds a bit expensive. I was hoping for $65 or so. RAM prices are somewhat volatile though. Does Newegg sell Infineon RAM?

Look into an Enermax 365. Its reasonably priced and good quality.

Now lets talk video card...
May 26th, 2003, 04:09 PM
Sastraxi

Hobo: I HAVE the Enermax 365w and can vouch for it; it's powered my box for nearly 4 months now, and its silent.
May 26th, 2003, 09:05 PM
Edneeis

Looks good although the nForce2 has this Dual Channel feature that can run the Ram @ 400 with two or more dims regardless of the CPU/FSB. So you may want to get 2 256MB sticks instead of 1 512MB.
May 26th, 2003, 10:05 PM
The Hobo

Thanks for the comments guys. :) I'll give it another look in the next few days and see what I can find.
May 27th, 2003, 12:47 PM
The Hobo

Maxtor and Seagate hard drives are slightly more than the WD one on newegg.

Office Max has a WD 120GB, 7200RPM hard drive for $59.99 after $100 worth of mail-in rebates. So I think I might go pick that up and just await the rebates.
May 27th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Edneeis

Wow thats like half off!
May 27th, 2003, 02:03 PM
The Hobo

Quote:

Originally posted by Edneeis
Wow thats like half off!

Damn. I just went there and they're out, every store within driving distance is out, and they aren't being restocked.

That blows...I don't want to pay $80 for a 80GB when I could have gotten 120GB for $60. :(
May 27th, 2003, 03:06 PM
siyan

That kind of stuff happens.

And being in a non-large city here in Canada means we never even have a chance for those great promo deals. :(

But at least you don't run the risk of a company...uhh...losing your MIR.
Jun 4th, 2003, 04:05 AM
aafuss

1. If you are keen to try a AMD based solution, go with a Althlon. If you want a 800MHZ FSB P4 , go for a i875/865 solution.
Also depends on the PSU type-Pentium 4's require a ATX12V connector, AMD Athlon doesn't.
My case is P4 ready, with a purple, translucent Compaq style case front from OTC Computer . It's a OTC 7117HB.
2. Sockets 462/478 are electrically different-that is a 462 socket cannot use 478 pin sockets and vica versa.
3. ATA is a disk standard, ATA 133 is good, but Serial ATA is better later on.
4. My PC has DDR SDRAM-it's the most common nowdays.
5. The north and south bridge make up the chipset-one might be for graphics (as in the 82845G/GL series), and the other one may be the main features-like CPU support.
6.Onboard LAN is useful if there is a opening for one on the metal back panel. Onboard graphics can be good for less demanding games-eg. the Intel Extreme graphics 845GL chipset can use upto 64mb memory (depending on BIOS settings and drivers/memory) to support graphics, so you could play many games the require at least 16mb. Also it can support multiple monitors, I have a Jetway 845DML which has this, and gives good 8mb graphics. A separate graphics card is better if you want the best graphics.
AC97 audio would suffice for normal usgae-but a sound card like Audigy 2 is better for gaming.
7.IDE is the most common.
8.ATX motherboards would have more expansion slots and RAM slots, but Micro ATX would have less features.
9.RAID is about mutliple disks thatcan be used as logical volumes-ideal for server use, but for most users uneccsary.
10.AGP and PCI are on most boards,ISA has disapeared some years back from motherboards.
Jun 4th, 2003, 07:05 AM
Sastraxi

Why are people such creative nuts? Why would an Audigy2 be *better* for gaming? Most AC'97 nowadays have 5 channels, so you'd get no more than the Audigy gives, and if you're talking about the kHz range (freq. response) that has no bearing whatsoever because humans can't hear well past 25 kHz, so the 192 kHz is compressed into our range anyway, whether it be by software or hardware. The only place you're *really* winning is where EAX comes into play, and the sNr ratio -- and you're going to pay $120 just for that?
Jun 4th, 2003, 10:18 AM
The Hobo

Alright, now you guys are just confusing me. :p

And by the way, my motherboard and power supply are on route for delivery today. :)
Jun 4th, 2003, 02:25 PM
The Hobo

Wow, this motherboard even came with some pretty cool software. Partition Magic 6, DriveImage 4, a virus scanner and restoration software. Leeto :)

I'm working on installing the motherboard right now.
Jun 4th, 2003, 02:52 PM
siyan

Quote:

Originally posted by Sastraxi
Why are people such creative nuts? Why would an Audigy2 be *better* for gaming? Most AC'97 nowadays have 5 channels, so you'd get no more than the Audigy gives, and if you're talking about the kHz range (freq. response) that has no bearing whatsoever because humans can't hear well past 25 kHz, so the 192 kHz is compressed into our range anyway, whether it be by software or hardware. The only place you're *really* winning is where EAX comes into play, and the sNr ratio -- and you're going to pay $120 just for that?

I agree. $120 for the card and then $400 for speakers to take advantage of the minor differences.