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I can't think of a good reason why we (the UK) should agree to share sovereignty of Gibralter with Spain. Evidently, somebody (I mean not just the Spaniards) thinks it's a good idea. Why is this?
It seems especially strange given the recent squabble over Perejil, that island a couple of hundred metres off the coast of Morocco. Surely this is complete hypocrisy on the part of whoever it is in Spain that is making a fuss over these two islands?
(edited for typos)
Out illustrious Prime Minister obviously thinks it will make him appear a good European.
Gibraltar is ours because the people of Gibraltar want it to be, that should be the end of it.
Well, to be fair, Gibralta was siezed from the Spanish some time in the past so it was their territory originally.
However, the past is the past and what matters now are the people who live there. If they do not regard themselves as Spanish and do not want to be ruled by Spain, then they should remain British.
How long ago in the past? Perejil has been Spanish territory for something like 600 years if I remember correctly. How long has Gibraltar been British?
300 I think
If Chris is correct, I see absolutely no difference between the situations facing Gibraltar and Perejil, except that I don't know what the residents (if any) of Perejil think of it. Given that the residents of Gibralter seem quite adamant that they should remain British, what on earth is the incentive to share sovereignty?
There must be something I am missing here. Where is the political leverage that allows Spain to make such demands and get away with it? We already basically hand over an absolute ****load of cash to the Spanish every year through the EU - it's not like they're in a position to be complaining about anything.
It's not like it makes any difference to me personally who has sovereignty of Gibraltar, but I don't see why we should give up land that is ours (for the moment at least, whether the Spanish like it or not) for what seems like no reason. It's the principle of the thing. The principles are the exact same ones that the Spanish are talking about with respect to the land they own just off the coast of Morocco, which makes it all the more infuriating.
Next thing you know they'll be giving the Falklands back to the Argies. And England back to the Danes or whoever the hell they were.
England is partly French or even Roman if I remember correctly :)
Roman sound correct:)Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
England is partly French or even Roman if I remember correctly :)
Yeah, but what did the Romans ever do for us
Bath ?
See Monty Python: The Life of Bryan (Not sure about the spelling)
Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
England is partly French or even Roman if I remember correctly :)
Give it back to the Jutes, Britons, and other groups then. Hang about none of them about, give it back to the Celts then;)
*** Are You On About?Quote:
Originally posted by SoCalled
Give it back to the Jutes, Britons, and other groups then. Hang about none of them about, give it back to the Celts then;)
Pre dated the Roman Invasion dude.Quote:
Originally posted by Nightwalker83
*** Are You On About?
Ok just couldn't understand your last post.Quote:
Originally posted by SoCalled
Pre dated the Roman Invasion dude.
I just heard on the news that Gibralter are going to have their own referendum on whether or not to remain solely British.
However, because the British government didn't get to organise the referendum themselves, they have already declared that they will ignore the outcome of the referendum.
The British government said that they were going to hold a referendum, but only after they had already reached an agreement with the Spanish!
What's the point of having a referendum then? If they've already decided, it's all just a sham.
I just don't understand why Gibralta is being ditched like this. Why are we pandering to Spanish demands?
BBC News Report
...because we, the Brits, are paying pennence for being global bullies over the last 400 years
Our strengths are in other areas now - give it back to them...
Give it back to who?Quote:
Originally posted by Gaffer
give it back to them...
The people of Gibraltar want to remain British, just because Blair is trying to gain some votes for his push to be Euro President is no reason for us to abandon a group of fellow Brits.
Bit of a chicken and egg situation this - my understanding is that Gibralter belongs to teh Iberian peninsula, no? I also believe (and this is off the top of my head) that the Brits took it over as a strategic naval outpost. effectively nicking from the Spanish.
It's pretty hard to believe that UK has rights to a piece of land obviously attached to Spain. Whether or not there are UK citizens there or not.
It's like you next door neighbour climbing your treehouse and lifting the ladder up - it's not his treehouse IMO...
Geographically and historicaly I can't argue , but the rights, wishes and best interests of UK citizens must outweigh our wish to be good Europeans.
Yeah, I know what you mean, which is why I more probing that standing on a point here.
Being from Northern Ireland, I know something about being a foreigner in someone else's land - and we all know what happened there.
If they are really vehement about being a British subject, then they should have no problem wither movign back to the UK, or if it's a location thing, staying where they are under Spanish rule.
Why don't you start a war over it ? You did the same with the Falklands ... :rolleyes:
We didn't start that war, we merely ended it.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Why don't you start a war over it ? You did the same with the Falklands ... :rolleyes:
Well, theoretically we did start the war by populating the Falklands in the first place... but again, that's historical.
I believe we should give up these places we ransacked all those years ago....
I'm sorry but I find this a bit silly.
Have a referendum. Majority counts. Case closed. Next ! :)
Actually if we're going to be theoretically correct, The Falklands Campaign was never a war.
According to the Geneva Convention war must actually be declared and it never was in 1982.
I can understand your point and have sympathy with it, but how would you go about telling someone who is British that if they want to stay in Britain they will need to move 1000 miles, or 4000 in the case of The Falklands.
But who should vote in the referendum, Gibraltans, British, Spanish, all of them?Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
I'm sorry but I find this a bit silly.
Have a referendum. Majority counts. Case closed. Next ! :)
How about the inhabitants of the region/county/whatever Gibraltar only ?
They'll vote with a massive majority to stay British.
Then it remains British. Simple innit ? I don't really understand all the fuss ...
Wally, if you phone the Spanish ambassador to Belgium and explain it to him, you will sort the whole problem for us.;)
Sort it out yerselves, ya lazy bastards :p
I imagine so considering at the last referendum they voted 12,128 to 44 to stay British.Quote:
Originally posted by GlenW
They'll vote with a massive majority to stay British.
And the 44 were menstruating women who just wanted to be awkward.:)Quote:
Originally posted by Slaine
I imagine so considering at the last referendum they voted 12,128 to 44 to stay British.
Wally
Well, they are having a referendum but the British government had nothing to do with organising it so they are refusing to acknowledge the result. See my previous post.Quote:
I'm sorry but I find this a bit silly.
Have a referendum. Majority counts. Case closed. Next !
Gaffer
You cannot compare Northern Ireland to the Falklands and Gibralta. Whilst, in all three, there is a majority to remain British, those wanting to revert nationality in Gibralta and the Falklands are non-existant.Quote:
Being from Northern Ireland, I know something about being a foreigner in someone else's land - and we all know what happened there.
The Falklands was never Argentinian, ever. Argentinian people have never lived there. They just claimed it for their own when they thought that British colonists had abandoned it.
Gibralta, admittedly was taken from the Spanish but it was a long time ago. For some reason, and I don't know the in's and out's of it, the people of gibralta want to remain British almost unanimously.
If Spain is so desperate for Gibraltar, then I think they should give their territories back to their rightful owners
e.g. give the Canaries back to the native Guanches(sp?) for example.
Gibralter and N Ireland a very simlar situations. Ireland was also plantated by the Brits a long time ago. and whilst there are no native Gibratarians rebelling against British occupancy, what's to say that the natives didn't get pushed out to nearby Estapona or the like?Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
You cannot compare Northern Ireland to the Falklands and Gibralta. Whilst, in all three, there is a majority to remain British, those wanting to revert nationality in Gibralta and the Falklands are non-existant.
The Falklands was never Argentinian, ever. Argentinian people have never lived there. They just claimed it for their own when they thought that British colonists had abandoned it.
Gibralta, admittedly was taken from the Spanish but it was a long time ago. For some reason, and I don't know the in's and out's of it, the people of gibralta want to remain British almost unanimously.
Sure the people of Gib. want to remain British - it's because they ARE british! Just as the Loyalists in N Ireland, on the whole, are Scottish desent.
As with N Ireland, the country that rightfully owns the disputed land have justifyable laid claim to it. So it's the same, but less violent.
I take your point with the Falklands - howver I believe that there is some ceredence over having the nearest country claim rights over any unpopulated rock in an ocean - I mean, that's how the majority of land issues are sorted out, right?
I think most issues with land were resolved with weaponry but anyway ...
But The Falklands are populated, and have only ever been populated by Brits.Quote:
Originally posted by Gaffer
nearest country claim rights over any unpopulated rock in an ocean - I mean, that's how the majority of land issues are sorted out, right?