Too many decisions.

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Jun 23rd, 2002, 11:13 PM
csnyder

Too many decisions.

OK, color me really indecisive. I’ve been trying to make a decision about a new computer since like April and I just can’t. :( I did some research, read “Hardware in a Nutshell.” Which is outdate, went to www.thehardwareguys.com (when there was actually something there), came up with a box, then couldn’t find the MB of my choice. I have a feeling that what I decided on was kind of outdated anyway, so I decided to revisit the issue. I’m more overwhelmed this time than last time Which MB????? Intel? Athelon??? I know this is a majorly heated discussion and everyone has an opinion, but what if you just want something that works?? BLAH!!

So this is what I had decided on in about mid-April.

intel D845WNL (p4)
P4 1.6
Seagate Barracuda ata iv UATA/100 40 GB
Crucial memory 2 256MB SDRAM DIMM

Uhhh, and a soundcard, which is another discussion all together. I’m not a gamer. All I want is a computer that I can put win 2k/xp on with VS.NET. How do I make this decision???

Thanks,
Carole

Ps. Have gone to tomshardware.com….don’t much care for it…too overwhelming. :(
Jun 24th, 2002, 05:09 AM
HarryW

Athlons are generally cheaper for the performance they offer compared to Pentiums. It doesn't make a huge difference though. You have to be a little more careful with cooling with Athlons, but any pre-built system should have adequate cooling. Are you building it yourself, or just looking for a package?

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference if you're not looking to tweak every last nanosecond of performance out of you computer. From the sounds of your requirements, just about anything will do it.
Jun 24th, 2002, 10:40 AM
JoshT

Intel motherboards/chipsets generally have a reputation for stability (over performance) - you're probably safe going for one. I personally prefer AMD CPUs over Intel CPUs.
Jun 24th, 2002, 11:03 AM
csnyder

Josh - Thanks. That's what I thought I've heard about MB's too. Why do you prefer the AMD CPU? I don't remember what form factor it uses - I know the p4 is socket 478. What's the AMD?

Harry - As tempted as I am to just by my system from my local Costco Wholesale stire, and save myself the hassle, experience has taught me NOT to buy off-the-shelf computers. I know it costs more, but I'm thinking of buying a bare-bones system from someone (probably www.computerstop.com) and have them add what I want. Is that better/safer than buying one off the shelf?

I guess it's just a matter of deciding how much shopping around I want to do.
Jun 24th, 2002, 11:25 AM
JoshT

I like the AMD because IMHO, the cost to performance ratio is better - Intel might have have the lead in raw megahertz, or even performance, but AMDs offerings are easier on the wallet. Athlons/Durons use socket A.
Jun 24th, 2002, 11:51 AM
HarryW

Personally, I have found very little difference in price when comparing off-the-shelf deals with self-built computers. I prefer to build them myself because I get to know exactly what I have and where it came from.

I'm not sure what the problem would be with off-the-shelf stuff apart from the mystery factor (not knowing for sure what's in it).

If you have a budget, a list of components you want and any specific requirements I am sure someone will be happy to give you a breakdown of what's looking good at the moment. There are some people around here that like to keep an eye on the market at all times, as a hobby I guess. Personally I tend to only take a proper interest when I'm looking to buy things. Give some more info and you'll probably get a useful response.
Jun 24th, 2002, 12:35 PM
csnyder

Quote:

I'm not sure what the problem would be with off-the-shelf stuff apart from the mystery factor (not knowing for sure what's in it).

Yep, that's what I want to avoid. That and all the brand-name specific software that comes with it..BLAH!! The last off-the-shelf I bought was also in this half-desktop thing that made upgrading it impossible. I think I've heard brands are better these days, and the truth is I really don't upgrade often, but....

So here's what I'm thinking. I'd like to find the sweet spot - good products, good price, good value. I don't need cutting edge but I'd like to be confident that my maching will last me a couple years. Stability is more important than performance.

Motherboard- I am really leaning toward intel because it seems to be the most stable. Funny thing is, they seem to be hard to find, especially is pre-made/bare bone systens. I heard that the thing to look at is the chipset...what ones are good (read stable)?

CPU-I'm leaning toward the P4, simply because I'm really not sure what the other options are. If you know of other options that are as stable, please fill me in. I've heard that the performance between the different brands are really negligable, and memory is more important, especially in VS.NET. I have no idea what speed to get. I'm not sure there's a diff between 1.6 and 2.0 GHZ, but I think that's my range.

My current machine is a celeon 300A...word has it that celerons have loss ground lately, no?

Memory--512MB. I use to know what the different types meant...I'll look it up, but unless anyone tells me differently, I don't really care.

HD: At least 40GB - ATA 100 is good enough. Read that diff between ATA 100 and ATA !33 is negligible. SCSI just is too expensive.

CDRW - Dunno if I think a DVD-ROM is woth it yet.

Video: Really really don't care. Not a gamer.

Sound: This one is a bit tricky. I'm not a gamer, but I have messed around with MIDI. Like to create music using on-board instruments (no add-on modules), so want something that will do a decent job. MP3s too - goes without saying...

NIC: Are they different? I think onboard LAN would be adequate...

Software: NONE!!

Keyboard, monitor, mouse: don't want em.

Thanks for your help, guys.
Jun 24th, 2002, 01:05 PM
JoshT

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder

My current machine is a celeon 300A...word has it that celerons have loss ground lately, no?I heard Intel has halved the cache on it newest ones which causes the older, slower ones to outperform the highest clocked.

Memory--512MB. I use to know what the different types meant...I'll look it up, but unless anyone tells me differently, I don't really care. P4 is probably RDRAM

HD: At least 40GB - ATA 100 is good enough. Read that diff between ATA 100 and ATA !33 is negligible. SCSI just is too expensive.Yeah, there will be a bigger difference with 7200RPM over 5400RPM than ATA100/133. SCSI isn't too bad if you buy used and look for deals.

CDRW - Dunno if I think a DVD-ROM is woth it yet.I would say you only need a DVD-ROM if you're going to watch movies, but I think VS.NET and MSDN have DVD-ROM optiosn available.

Video: Really really don't care. Not a gamer.Get a nVidia TNT2 based card for about US$35.

Sound: This one is a bit tricky. I'm not a gamer, but I have messed around with MIDI. Like to create music using on-board instruments (no add-on modules), so want something that will do a decent job. MP3s too - goes without saying...Soundblaster + Decent Speakers, I'm not an audiophile and I have ethical reasons for avoiding most mp3s, but my SBLive Value Card and US$50 Altec Lansing 3-pc speakers work fine for me

NIC: Are they different? I think onboard LAN would be adequate...Onboard LAN seems to be dirt-cheap Realtek chips - you can find unbranded cards with these chips for $5, unless you get an Intel MB, then it'll be Intel NICs.
Jun 24th, 2002, 01:34 PM
csnyder

Thanks Josh

Yet another question: I'm finding that intel MBs are actually hard to find at local computer shops, but it's a the chipset that matters. Does anyone have an opinion on which chipset is the best?
Jun 24th, 2002, 02:53 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder
Thanks Josh

Yet another question: I'm finding that intel MBs are actually hard to find at local computer shops, but it's a the chipset that matters. Does anyone have an opinion on which chipset is the best?

For AMD, get the nForce (integrated sound, graphics, LAN).

For Intel, get the 845G or 845GL, both have an integrated graphics subsystem, which would be fine for you.
Jun 24th, 2002, 02:59 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

I heard Intel has halved the cache on it newest ones which causes the older, slower ones to outperform the highest clocked.

Not only that, but the Netburst architecture (same as used on the P4s) is horrendously inefficient. Small data cache, etc. Horrible architecture, even with the added boost of DDR memory it can't hold a candle to the Tualatin, which is a well designed core.

Quote:

P4 is probably RDRAM

Most P4s use DDR these days.

Quote:

Get a nVidia TNT2 based card for about US$35.

Even better, the 845G or 845GL boards have integrated video. No, I don't like it either, but it would be fine for him :)
Jun 24th, 2002, 06:25 PM
csnyder

Thanks, jungleman....seems like sound advice.

Quote:

Even better, the 845G or 845GL boards have integrated video. No, I don't like it either, but it would be fine for him

Her. :D
Jun 24th, 2002, 06:34 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder
Thanks, jungleman....seems like sound advice.

Her. :D

Ah, OK...sorry :D :D

Yeah...I'm an Athlon fan (moderator at a very large tech forum with 33K+ members), but for you, the P4 would be fine. You're clearly not looking to squeeze the maximum performance out and just want something that works, and quite frankly the P4s generate less heat and means less noisy cooling. ;)
Jun 24th, 2002, 06:37 PM
HarryW

I would tend to go for a DVD-ROM in any system I bought now, just because the price difference is barely noticable compared to the price of the system as a whole, and it's a bit of future-proofing. I just bought some coputer stuff including a DVD-ROM. It cost me around £35 +VAT, I'll let you figure out how much that is in US$ :)
Jun 24th, 2002, 06:50 PM
csnyder

Quote:

Yeah...I'm an Athlon fan (moderator at a very large tech forum with 33K+ members), but for you, the P4 would be fine. You're clearly not looking to squeeze the maximum performance out and just want something that works, and quite frankly the P4s generate less heat and means less noisy cooling.

Ok, I'm convinced. Thanks.

Quote:

I would tend to go for a DVD-ROM in any system I bought now, just because the price difference is barely noticable compared to the price of the system as a whole, and it's a bit of future-proofing. I just bought some coputer stuff including a DVD-ROM. It cost me around £35 +VAT, I'll let you figure out how much that is in US$

Uhhh, silly question, but do DVD-ROMs write to CDs? I thought I read that they don't. I'd really like a write-to-medium device other than 3.5" :D but I think I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy a CDRW and a DVD-ROM...

Back to the chipset thing: i845GL has onboard LAN, i845G doesn't, right?? I've been seeing i850 for the p4...how does it differ from the i845?

Thanks - you guys have been a big help!
Jun 24th, 2002, 06:55 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder
Uhhh, silly question, but do DVD-ROMs write to CDs? I thought I read that they don't. I'd really like a write-to-medium device other than 3.5" :D but I think I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy a CDRW and a DVD-ROM...

Back to the chipset thing: i845GL has onboard LAN, i845G doesn't, right?? I've been seeing i850 for the p4...how does it differ from the i845?

Thanks - you guys have been a big help!

Nope, you would need a CDRW and a DVD. CDRWs aren't that expensive, you can get a good 32x at Newegg.com for $60.

No, not quite the difference. The i845GL does not have support for a 533Mhz FSB and no AGP slot. Not anything you should be concerned with, if you're not a gamer.

Don't worry about the i850, it's based on Rambus DRAM, which is expensive, hot, and being phased out.
Jun 25th, 2002, 01:12 AM
csnyder

Stop. Wait. Hold everything!

Quote:

Not only that, but the Netburst architecture (same as used on the P4s) is horrendously inefficient. Small data cache, etc. Horrible architecture, even with the added boost of DDR memory it can't hold a candle to the Tualatin, which is a well designed core.

Is the old celeron (300 A) based on the Tualatin archetecture? If so, would I be better (or just as well) off to just up my RAM and HD on my current system? I've thought about doing it (money's a bit tight) but decided against it because what I have is...well...old...
Jun 25th, 2002, 10:17 AM
JungleMan

Re: Stop. Wait. Hold everything!

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder

Is the old celeron (300 A) based on the Tualatin archetecture? If so, would I be better (or just as well) off to just up my RAM and HD on my current system? I've thought about doing it (money's a bit tight) but decided against it because what I have is...well...old...

No, the Celeron 300A is prehistoric.

NetBurst-based chips aren't necessarily slow, they just have to be scaled really high to perform anything worth a damn. But 1.6Ghz P4 is more than enough to run Visual Studio or whatever, so you're fine.
Jun 25th, 2002, 01:02 PM
csnyder

Quote:

P4 is probably RDRAM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most P4s use DDR these days.

I'm actually seeing a lot of mbs that support SDRAM..:confused: Should I steer clear of those and go for DDR?

(this might be completely lame, but if you have a specific MB to suggest, I'd love to hear it)
Jun 25th, 2002, 01:30 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

Originally posted by csnyder

I'm actually seeing a lot of mbs that support SDRAM..:confused: Should I steer clear of those and go for DDR?

(this might be completely lame, but if you have a specific MB to suggest, I'd love to hear it)

Yeah, I'd steer clear of SDRAM, even for your purposes. It bogs down on performance a lot.

Check out the Gigabyte GA-8IG. Seems perfect for your system, 5 PCI, 3 DDR, and onboard Intel graphics, onboard audio...should be fine :cool:

You can get it at Newegg.com

As for memory, get some Kingston PC2100 RAM, 512MB should be fine but if you don't have the money get 256.
Jun 25th, 2002, 01:46 PM
csnyder

Thanks Jungleman, you've been a big help.

Can you tell me why this MB and this memory?

Thanks,
Carole
Jun 25th, 2002, 02:03 PM
JungleMan

The motherboard is stable, and has onboard video and audio and DDR for under $100.

The memory is cheap but good quality.
Jun 25th, 2002, 07:28 PM
csnyder

OK, I think I need to start making some trade-offs. . FYI, I have a
physical disability which makes playing with the hardware myself
sort-of--well, really--impossible, so I'm not building the machine
myself. That means I have to decide how I'm gonna get this
thing built, and there seems to be a chasm between the ideal
and reality.

Code:

NEWEGG Local store Description MB $105.00 $119.00 Gigabyte GA-8IG,Intel 845G/ICH4 chipset ATX motherboard memory $105.00 $109.00 DDR KINGSTON KVR266X64C25/512 512MB DDR PC2100 RAM HD $100.00 $125.00 MAXTOR 80GB 7200RPM Model # 6L080J4 - D740X OEM, DRIVE ONLY CPU $140.00 $169.00 Intel Pentium 4 1.6A GHz 512K Socket 478 Processor 400MHz Processor Bus Case $39.00 floppy $9.00 $15.00 CDRW $60.00 $149.00 Lite On 32x12x40 CDRW Model LTR-32123S $519.00 $725.00

So I'm kind of in a quandry. Is $200 a reasonable markup?
Someone suggested that I get someone to build it for me, but I
dunno if I wanna do that. Does anyone have any good
suggestions?

And...am I missing anything?