Jethro, Gen X

[HarryW]

Jethro was joking... I think

[kovan]

you could be right

[Gen-X]

I call people blind... I call them ignorant, occasionally I call them a moron.

Sometimes they are idiots, others bigots, a few of them I have even gone as far as calling them delusional or insane

But never... EVER... have I descended to a level to call someone "SCUM".

Despite what I may attribute to their perceptions, their intelligence or whatever else I have respected the fact they are a human being and that my comments were aimed specifically at ONLY the part in which they are discussing.

You however are now directly attacking me as a person and not just referring to an attribute of an argument I put forward... That is something I have NEVER done.


So who is showing the greater disrespect?

[HarryW]

Because of course "that's nice dear" is a highly intellectual and all-encompassing answer.

Now my understanding of Muslim doctrine is that muslims cannot drink anything distilled from grapes....this would seem to exclude beer, gin etc etc. Therefore it is simply interpretation by mulahs regarding a global ban on alcohol.

That was my only point

[Gen-X]

Harry... Thats REALLY nice dear

[HarryW]

I will not be drawn into your petty little arguments.

[Gen-X]

Uhuh... Whatever you say dear

[kovan]

Jethro hmmmm
i will make you stand corrected again
ANYTHING that makes you not yourself, meaning drunk, high or what ever is banned by Quran, not "mulahs" interesting way of putting name of imams.....
dont know any other language that refered to imams as mulah other than my language, i wonder what you are and what you speak.. but thats not the point..
and if you read throu the quran you will find that anything that makes you high, drunk ect.. is banned..

GEN X -
you dont like being called what you are?
i am sick n tired you of offending me (not offended anymore), this guy that guy,...

if you weren't a scum you would SHOW some respect

me and HarryW, and VirtualVB totally have different points of view.. yet i respect them
and from my undrestanding they do respect me as well
regardless of beliefs..
so why dont you try to show some respect?
if it harms ya then dont do it again..

and when i make a attack i make it DIRECT
i dont generalize like you did by grouping ALL religions
and all people of religious beliefs
so yes
your the scum and this is an DIRECT attack because the arguement you made only fits your beliefs
however i told you, if i look the situation of that family..
i will have A TOTAL different way of looking at the situation then you do
so there for i made a direct attack because i have not seen you show respect to anyone
so why should we respect you?

in life, to be respected you must respect first

and i would appreciate it if you attacked me DIRECTLY instead of generalizing and including people that have no say in this conversation

[Gen-X]

Kovan

ANYTHING that makes you not yourself, meaning drunk, high or what ever is banned by Quran

So that means it is banned to have chocolate, asprin, dieuretics and a dozen more....

if you weren't a scum you would SHOW some respect

You would not understand the concept of respect if it came up and bit you on the ass. You talk about showing respect and then you attack me PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY without even knowing who I really am as a person.

If that is your idea of respect then you live in a sad, sad world.

and from my undrestanding they do respect me as well

Yet VVB said you were not sincere. Is that respectful?

so why dont you try to show some respect?
if it harms ya then dont do it again..

I respect people by not allowing these conversations to effect the questions part of this forum. If any of these people were to have a problem I would give them the same level of help I would anyone else. Each of them knows that what I say is limited specifically to this section here.

I have appologised to both Harry and VVB on the occasions where I was wrong and admitted it (another sign of respect) yet you continue to post about the Bible while refusing to answer questions about your own religion.

in life, to be respected you must respect first

Respect is something you EARN... not something you just give to anyone who walks off the street. Did you "respect" the beliefs of every Christian on here when you stated "the Bible is corrupt"?

So how then do you GIVE respect when you attack people's religions?

As for me? Like I said... you EARN respect, some people automatically gain the respect of a stranger while others need to prove they are worthy of respect.

You talk one thing Kovan... but you ACT another... that is what is known as a H Y P O C R I T and that is the worst form of disrespect that I know of.

and i would appreciate it if you attacked me DIRECTLY instead of generalizing and including people that have no say in this conversation

But I would not be so "disrespectful" to attack you directly because I don't KNOW you enough to make comments on who you are as a person... I can only comment on those parts of you that you display here and they justly and fairly get the rhetoric they deserve.

You however misread only HALF of what I have written and JUDGE (guess that isn't bad for those who follow the Koran) my entire being as a person on but the smallest section of who I am. Is that what your book teaches you? Judge only the tiniest bit of a person and condemn them for it?

What tolerance... what forgiveness... what perspicacity!!

So basically what you are saying kovan is that anything that makes you not yourself is banned/barred etc.

Ok so how does this work with Rushdie. If you don't hate the writer of yourself, but still seek to do harm to him because of the rantings of some geriatric koran thumper, you are actually committing a crime in the eyes of your god. Therefore the forsaid geriatric would be doing the devils work..........

[kovan]

Gen X
i dont think you undrestood what i said
i ONLY post "contridictions" because i want everyone to see what BIBLE SAYS
not what i say OK?

back to respect
and me being a hypocrit as you put it
what do you want me to answer about my religion?
i will only answer person to person not on the forum.....
because i feel that it will lead to another one of those arguements about "why god makes people die.."


the conclusion i have drawn about you is only based on how much i know you
so dont go around saying i shoudn't make those conclusions
because what you have shown is what i have drawn my conclusion from
and i did show you a lot of respect at first
why?
i am the type of person that if i meet someone
they automatically get my FULL respect and if they do things to show they dont deserve the respect then i tend to disrespect them based on those actions..

and i believe if i met you in person it would be a total different story for i dont know you well
and yes i still think your a scum BASED on HOW much i know about you,
this is between you and me
not between islam and you
because you dont know much about islam at all
however you do probably know me and my attitude..

about this section being this section...
i feel the same way
if you or anyone else who disagrees in some views with me needed my help
i would bend over backwards to help them out
yes this section of the forum STAYS as this section
i dont know about you
but if you needed my help in let say asp forum
i would help you just like i would help anyone else
and i believe you would do the same..
just because we dont agree doesnt mean we have to take it as a gruch forever

you know what
i am gonna take this step first
some can see it as a weakness and some can see it different
i however see it as a very good thing to do
and your right, i should follow what i believe, how ever sometimes attitude gets in the way
neverless

i apologize to you for everything i have said that might or have offended you
and i hope you will accept my apology
so just because we have different points of view that doesnt mean it has to reflect on everything
so again i apologize for anything offensive i have said and i hope that you forgive me
i make my second step as from what ever you might say to the above as if you apologized the way i did
even if you dont apologize so i call it truce
if you do the same, cool

so as a muslim, i conclude that we have our differences
and its best we dont argue those differences
so again i use a chapter from the quran

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. 

109.001 
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith! 
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers! 
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers! 

109.002 
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship, 
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship; 
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve, 

109.003 
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship. 
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: 

109.004 
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship. 
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, 

109.005 
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: 

109.006 
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine. 
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. 
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

from here from my side its all settled



JETHRO - come again? i have NO clue what you were talking about, i hope you elaborate that i undrestand what you mean

[Arbiter]

I think ALL you guys need to chill out (with the possible exception of Harry who appears to be so laid back he's horizontal!)

Kovan.

Many kudos points for that apology. I personally would not have apologised.

Gen-X.

Are you going to accept that apology? And maybe even reciprocate?

I personally am getting a little tired with these "Let's get pi ssed and kill God" debates. Ok, discussing religion is very interesting, but all these deteriorate to is arguments about semantics and ubiquitous nit picking.

Considering that half the people taking part in these debates don't speak English as their primary language I think they do bloody well to hold conversations at that level.

Discussing interesting points and finding out information is commendable but why such nasty arguing? Does anyone really think someone else is going to turn around and go:

"Gen-X, you're absolutely right. My religion is bol locks and I'm going to renounce it and become a 7th day advent transsexual demon worshipper!"

No.

That won't be happening. So why slate other peoples religions? They may seem odd to you. If so - don't follow the practises. But don't try to rip them apart either. That goes the other way as well. If someone's not religious don't tell them they're going to burn in hellfire whilst the fleas of a thousand camels infest their armpits for all eternity.

They'll just laugh in the case of the more relaxed amongst us or start shouting abuse back.

So why don't we all relax, crack open a beer (exc. Kovan who may have a still orange if I have one in the fridge) and discuss things like sensible human beings?

[kovan]

Arbiter >> it took a LOT of guts to apologize
including my ego, which is size of this universe
but i think its for the best, and i think i feel better about myself

by Arbiter:
So why don't we all relax, crack open a beer (exc. Kovan who may have a still orange if I have one in the fridge) and discuss things like sensible human beings?

heheheh
man that just cracked me up
i give you a point for being funny and of course being right..

and yes i agree, i think this thing has gone TOO far
thats why i backed out of religous discussion and TRIED to lay back..
so i have apologized, feel better, and from here i aint discussion religion

if you dont have a orange in the fridge, i am sure you have water, or ice cubes

[Arbiter]

I hope you're not stepping out of discussing religion completely because I intend to ask you to elaborate on the drugs/drink/intoxicating substances at a later date (I'll start a new thread).

Oh and, let us know what you prefer and I'll keep the fridge stocked.

PS:

I have plenty of water in the distiller, but I lost the recipe for Ice Cubes. Sorry.

[kovan]

if you ask me i will answer, however not on this forum
and i will give you as much detail as i can possibly find
however this is going to be a one on one thing

so if you like me to elaborate, i will do it to best of my abilities with pleasure

PS
water hmm i change my mind
i like carbonated water.. since the bottles KINDA look like beer bottles, then i will look cool too

[Gen-X]

Kovan

I appreciate your appology and the spirit in which it was given but you have not offended me... perhaps if you knew me you would understand that.

There is a difference between taking offense and simply seeing something hypocritical and becoming insensed at the hypocracy of it.

I appologise for directing my very acidic tongue in your direction... nobody deserves that


I do however still wonder as to why you are quite willing to lay down things in the bible here yet refuse to talk about the Koran in the same context... that tells me you know it wont stand up to scrutiny and that you don't want it "smeared" the way the Bible is.

But that is my opinion and mine alone, just as you want people to see the Bible is corrupted I would like you to see what you are doing.... but seeing as they don't, you wont

Arbiter

I agree with you on wanting to know more about the "nothing that makes you different" thing, I am disappointed he wont discuss it here... I think that says something.

But your right about chilling out... my soap box is all worn out and I need a new one

About the answers though... I'm not expecting people to stand up proclaiming I am right or that they renounce their religion... All I would like to hear is people say with genuine honesty... "Perhaps it isn't as good as I think it is and in the future I wont just automatically assume its the most amazing thing in the world and everyone else must be wrong. *MAYBE* we are all right in some way... and all wrong... and I am no longer arrogant enough to think that *MY* God is the only one that is real".

All I expect is perspicacity... if thats too much to ask then pass the orange juice... I don't drink either but it has nothing to do with religion.

[Written with sincerity and honesty... excuse anything that seems acidic... just my nature... you try getting it on with a porcupine!!! They don't mean it.. they were just built that way ]

[kovan]

i think i have said this before
i would like SOMEONE, ANYONE
to bring contridictions of quran forth...

and if you want to know more about "something that makes you different"
then you and i have to discuss it PRIVATELY if your interested..
if that shows something to you then ok
but i would definately like someone to study quran and bring forth contridictions
is that such a bad thing for me to say?
i WANT someone to bring contridictions of quran on this forum

i had typed a whole explaination about all this drug business... but i decided to delete it
cus it would lead to one of these arguements..
so if you want to know something about quran ask me personally

Gen X
have a orange punch
that way you not drunk and know what your saying..

[Gen-X]

Assumptions

1. Discuss Koran in forum
2. Discussing Bible in forum causes arguments
3. Bible is corrupt and contradictory
4. Discussing Koran in forum would cause arguments
5. Koran is corrupt and contradictory

If 3 => 2 and 4 => 1 Then
  Obviously 5
End If

Its the only logical reason why I can see you are so adamant about discussing it "PRIVATELY". You know it will cause arguments, meaning it is the same principle as why the Bible causes arguments and as you see the Bible as corrupt then it leads to the Koran being corrupt for the same means.

If you felt the Koran was "correct" and that it contained "truth" you would be happy to discuss them here or anywhere knowing that their TRUTH would stand out and could NOT be contradicted.

I know its truth that the world is a sphere... would anyone care to argue with that? If I discussed it here would anyone argue? Of course not.

Kovan... while I am sure you have your own reasons for not wanting to discuss the issues in here, the message you are putting out to people is that you do not want to discuss them because you know they will not stand up.

Its like standing in a line with each person holding a rag. The person in front of you believes his rag won't burn if set on fire as do you... You watch the first person have his rag set on fire and it goes up in flames... you even make your own comments about why the first one went up on flames... but when the time comes for you to put your OWN rag in the flames you pull it away... too afraid because you know what will happen.

Sorry if this is not the case but that is EXACTLY how it is coming across to me.... I dont understand your reluctance.

[kovan]

i am not afraid of discussing Quran
and i feel it is the absolute truth

so where do we start?
how about from assumption number 5 you stated
you made the assumption
so i would like to see you prove that assumption to be a fact.. why do i want you to do that?
2 reasons.
one: i feel like you cant
two: if you do bring a valid contridiction and you can prove it to me that it is a contridiction
then what does that tell me? that all my life been searching for the truth is just getting started..
so MAYBE if you do find a contridiction, something i could never have seen yet
you would actually do me a BIG favour

so sticking to the point
good assumption
now you have to prove it for it to be valid right?
i can assume that your a homo.. you could be, but i have no proof

but lets not get into that,
but on a serious note
i would definately LOVE to see assumption number 5 brought forth and proven to be a fact..

so before you come up with any contridictions, you have to obviously have to learn what the Quran says
Correct? (please dont forget to answer this question)

and one more thing
i am starting to get the feeling you only try to argue what i say about the quran (which is of course expected since you dont know much about quran and that gives me the feeling that you think i know quran like back of my hand, sorry to say but i dont)

so when i say something about the quran, i put it in my english and then try to explain it..
and this leads to the problems of you not getting the message i sent
"the message is only as good as how the reciever interperts it"

damn it i lost track of what i was saying

in essense
you want Quran discussed, you have to know the quran before it can be discussed because what the use of discussion if you have no idea what it says?, correct? (answer this one too please)

that is what i meant by PRIVATE
if you want to know something about the quran i will tell you
and when you know more and more about quran
you obviously will question things you pick up.. which is human nature is to question..

and this will lead to a VERY good (in my opinion) discussion
but i am sorry to say, but i CANNOT discuss somethign with someone if they have no knowledge of the topic
and that is the SOLE reason why i tend to back out of discussion about the quran instead i try to give you guys hints so you can go learn about it
and we can discuss it in a well mannered way

conclusion:
i will absolutely be open to discussion ANYWHERE about Quran or any islamic belief based on ONE condition..
and that is if you have the knowledge about islam to keep up with the discussion..

why do i want the person to have knowledge before a discussion?
you might have heard on media or from some where else that muslims oppress their women, and order them around, hit them, beat them and go as far as kill them and claiming this is what islam says...
well if you read about islam, islam is ABSOLUTELY againts these things..
so what i am afraid of is you saying
"well you hit your wife, and she cant do a damn thing about it, and thats what islam says"
of course thats not what islam says and i will bring forth the proof of that..
....
man do i go on and on
so before i DISCUSS anything with anyone about ANYTHING (not just quran)
i and the person must have the knowledge of the topic

hope you undrestand where i am coming from

[Gen-X]

First

The assumptions I presented were based on what I believed YOU were thinking. That "because" you say the bible is corrupt... and "because" you know discussing it in the forum causes arguments and "because" you believe discussing the Qu'ran in the forum would cause arguments it means you know (but wont admit) the Qu'ran is the same as the Bible in respect ot its content being correct.

Its called "logic" and its quite a simple thing to grasp


Second

I don't know much about lamb chops... but if someone told me that they could fly I wouldn't HAVE to know about them to know when something is not truth.

That is what logic is about. You don't understand the Bible and yet you quite happily comment on it and say it is corrupted.

When they are you allowed to comment on something else you do not understand... and yet people cannot comment on yours if they don't understand????

That is hypocritical.

Third

I couldn't convince you of a contradiction if I tried. You provided hundreds of contradictions to VVB but did he believe any of them??? Of course not. He had an answer to explain every one of them so why would you be any different?

The fact you begin this discussion with the axiom of belief that the Qu'ran is 100% absolutely correct means you would not see truth if it was presented with you... because in order to see that truth you would have to change your axiom that the Qu'ran is absolutely correct.

Frankly that doesn't happen. You are no different from VVB in this sense.

BTW, as a note. I have heard another excuse as to why certain things "appear" as contradictions in the Bible... the speaker said that the Bible is not necessarily written chronologically but thematically, meaning that some verses may be out of sync and thus "appear" that something happened before the other and then in another verse happened after.

Of course I find this convenient once again... always some excuse, always some quick remedy that didn't exist before the question was asked.

Forth

I wouldn't be stupid enough to follow popular media in believing that you beat your women etc, etc...

I do however understand perfectly well that your women are kept dressed from head to toe so that they are protected from being raped by men. Correct me if I am wrong but its a case of "If men can't see then they can't want".


If this is true (notice I said IF) then that makes me wonder why it is a religion would cover up women rather than deal with the wanton urges of men instead? Why provide a remedy than actually solve the problem that causes it?

What then is the problem with taking a single "law" and exploring it?

Take the Alcohol thing for example.... If you provide us with the exact verses that talk about it and then explain your view of it we can all openly discuss it and ask questions that you answer. How then will that cause an argument unless of course you are unwilling to see if/when we pull up a flaw?

I already stated that asprin, chocolate and even vitamins would be considered to alter your normal state. If I am in error in saying this then enlighten me, explain it and correct this error.

Once again I can see your only reason for wishing to talk privately so that if you fail, nobody else will know you failed and your beloved book will not be "tarnished" because only a single person proved you wrong.

If this is not the reason then DISCUSS IT HERE.

Someone who thinks something is absolutely 100% truth wouldn't be so reluctant.

Your actions don't match your words.

Sorry... but that is how I see it.

[kovan]

i am most interested in assumption number 5

[Gen-X]

Did you read a word I said?

[kovan]

the last one to be a proof
and
ok i will answer few of the points before i head to bead
connections seems to be back to ok

about the dress
.. your right as one point
there is a LOT more to the dress then just protect from rapists..

and i dont tell my women to dress that way
she does it because she wants to..
another reason why they do it
is because to show their muslims..

i can go on on reasons

read chapter 4 of the quran..
its titled "Women"

[Gen-X]

English isn't your first language is it?

If that is the case it would explain why you keep misunderstanding the list of assumptions.

I didn't say the 5th one was correct... I simply stated it as an assumption that could be made.

It gains validity TO YOU because it follows the same path as the other assumptions YOU made.

Do I need to explain it again or are you going to get it wrong and ask once more for me to prove something that you prove yourself with your actions?

[HarryW]

You do what you do, let me do what I do
I'm gonna do it anyway, so why not do it too
And what if 'what if' turns out to be 'that's it for you'?
Some you win some you lose
The fish are out of water

[kovan]

hmm i think i undrestood very well
but when someone makes an assumption
the other people like to see that assumption become a fact
at least i would like to