Contridictions in the Bible - Set 1

[kovan]

First of Few Articles with biblical references-
here it is for you bible believers - its kinda long, but its worth reading
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PAUL SAID, "God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33), yet never has a book produced more confusion than
the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.

Why do trained theologians differ? Why do educated translators disagree over Greek and Hebrew meanings? Why all the
confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?
"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise
ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into
the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most
"uncertain sound."
The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of theological bias
notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. Should it surprise us when such a literary and moral mish-mash, taken
seriously, causes so much discord? Here is a brief sampling of biblical contradictions.

1) Contradictions appear in even the opening two chapters of the Bible, where inconsistent accounts of the creation of the world are set forth. * For example, Genesis chapter 1 tells us that the first man and the first woman were made at the same time, and after the animals. However, Genesis chapter 2 states that the order of creation was as follows: man, then the animals, and then woman.

2) In addition, Genesis chapter 1 sets forth six days of creation, but chapter 2 speaks of the "day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Genesis chapter 1 states that the fruit trees were created before man, but chapter 2 indicates that the fruit trees were created after man. Genesis 1:20 says that the fowl were created out of the waters, but Genesis 2:19 states that the fowl were created out of the ground.

3) Also, Genesis 1:2-3 asserts that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day, but Genesis 1:14-19 says that the sun, moon, and stars were not made until the fourth day.

4) Contradictions also abound in the biblical account of a worldwide flood. Genesis 6:19-22 says that God ordered Noah to bring "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort...into the ark." However, Genesis 7:2-3 states that the Lord ordered Noah to bring into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens, and the unclean beasts by twos.

5) Genesis 7:17 says that the flood lasted forty days, but Genesis 8:3 tells us that it lasted one hundred and fifty days. Genesis 8:4 states that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah's ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month, but the very next verse asserts that the tops of the mountains could not even be seen until the tenth month. Genesis 8:13 states that the earth was dry on the first day of the first month, but Genesis 8:14 reports that the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.

5) The Old Testament also contains a significant contradiction in the story of the census taken by King David and God's
subsequent punishment of the Israelites. According to the story, God was so angered by the census that he sent a plague that killed seventy thousand men. II Samuel 24:1 says that the Lord caused David to take the census, but I Chronicles 21:1 tells us that David was incited by Satan to take the census.

6) In addition, there is a contradiction regarding the question of whether God punishes children for the sins of their parents. At
Ezekiel 18:20, the Lord states: "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father...." However, at Exodus 20:5, God says: "...I the
Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me."

7) Moreover, the Old Testament is contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. At Jeremiah 7:22, God says that he did not give the Israelites any commands about animal sacrifices. In contrast, at Exodus 29:38-42 and many other places in the Pentateuch, God is clearly depicted as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.

8) Turning to the New Testament, there are contradictions between the genealogy of Jesus as set forth in the first chapter of
Matthew and the genealogy given in the third chapter of Luke. Both genealogies list Jesus' father as being Joseph (which is
curious, given that Mary was supposedly impregnated by the Holy Ghost), but Matthew states that the name of Joseph's father
was Jacob, while Luke says that his name was Heli. Also, Matthew tells us that there were twenty-six generations between Jesus and King David, but Luke reports that the number of such generations was forty-one. In addition, Matthew alleges that Jesus' line of descent was through David's son Solomon, but Luke asserts that it was through David's son Nathan.

9) In the story of the birth of Jesus, Matthew 2:13-15 says that Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt with the baby Jesus immediately
after the wise men from the east had brought their gifts. However, Luke 2:22-40 indicates that, after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem for the time of Mary's purification (which was forty days, under the Mosaic law), then brought Jesus to Jerusalem "to present him to the Lord," and then returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke makes no mention of a journey into Egypt or a visit by wise men from the east.

10) As to the death of the disciple Judas, Matthew 27:5 states that Judas took the money that he had obtained by betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and then "went and hanged himself." However, Acts 1:18 reports that Judas used the money to purchase a field and "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

11) In describing Jesus being led to his execution, John 19:17 states that Jesus carried his own cross. In contrast, Mark 15:21-23 says that a man called Simon carried Jesus' cross to the crucifixion site.

12) Regarding the crucifixion itself, Matthew 27:44 tells us that Jesus was taunted by both of the criminals who were being
crucified with him. However, Luke 23:39-43 states that only one of the criminals taunted Jesus, that the other criminal rebuked the one who was doing the taunting, and that Jesus told the criminal who was defending him: "Today shalt thou be with me in
paradise."

13) As to the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 assert that Jesus cried with a loud voice: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Luke 23:46 says that Jesus' final words were: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." John 19:30 tells us that the last statement of the dying Jesus was: "It is finished."

14) There are even contradictions in the accounts of the resurrection -- the alleged event which is the very basis of the Christian
religion. Mark 16:2 says that on the day of the resurrection certain women arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun, but John 20:1 states that they arrived when it was yet dark. Luke 24:2 tells us that the tomb was open when the women arrived, but Matthew 28:1-2 indicates that it was closed. Mark 16:5 states that the women saw a young man at the tomb, Luke 24:4 says that they saw two men, Matthew 28:2 alleges that they saw an angel, and John 20:11-12 insists that they saw two angels.

15) Also in the resurrection accounts, there are contradictions as to who the women were that came to the tomb, whether the men or angels that the women saw were inside or outside the tomb, whether the men or angels were standing or sitting, and whether Mary Magdalene recognized the risen Jesus when he first appeared to her.

16) As a final example of a contradiction contained in the New Testament, the conflicting accounts of the conversion of Paul can
be cited. Acts 9:7 says that when Jesus called Paul to preach the gospel, the men who were with Paul heard a voice but saw no
man. However, Acts 22:9 asserts that when Paul received his calling, the men who were with him saw a light but did not hear the voice that spoke to Paul.


CORRUPTION OF THE TORAH

MORE...

Should we kill?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his
brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare
them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the
Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the
Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be
ripped up."

For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27
(Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil
concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.

Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet
never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him,
Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose
ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon
the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as
the Lord commanded Moses."

vs.

Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the
sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . .
water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up
any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he
made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have
eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these
things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they
shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

vs.

Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in
secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and
they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
. . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the
Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did
according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some
theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than
cited here.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare,
neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man
whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in
Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he
was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third
and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity
of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for
the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I
polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make
them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any
man."

vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up
sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your
plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am
come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her
mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.

John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train
filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three
are one."

It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's
leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to
solve.

Are we all sinners?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous
before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord
blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out
of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I
will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by
himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God,
willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou
swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of
evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and
your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.

John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify
him."

It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is
the case.

Shall we obey the law?

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.

Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the
earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not
clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he
them."

vs.

Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for
him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she
was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit,
whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let
us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.

Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the
Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God
formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the
man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight,
and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that
spake to me."

(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?"
by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are
possible."

vs.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no
man can approach . . ."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II
Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.

I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles
6:1)
II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the
skies."
Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth,
have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.

Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of
Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt
thou give unto me."
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of
Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I
return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So
Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah
came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it
came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he
had vowed."
II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he
delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven
together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had
offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which
was the son of Heli."



This chapter was first printed as a "nontract," a freethinkers' version of a (non-proselytizing) tract. Since it was first published, I
have received numerous replies from Christians who think that these contradictions are either trivial or easily explained. Yet not
a single "explanation" has been convincing. Most of them do little homework, inventing off-the-cuff defenses of what the bible
"could have meant," or devising creative explanations that actually make the problem worse. For example, one Christian,
agreeing with Eusebius, explained that "Thou shalt not bear false witness" does not prohibit lies, and that God actually wants us
to tell falsehoods if it will further the kingdom of heaven.

Many of the defensive attempts are arguments from silence. Some apologists assert that since the writer of John does not say
that there were not more women who visited the tomb with Mary, then it is wrong to accuse him of contradicting the other
evangelists who say it was a group of women. But this is a non-argument. With this kind of thinking, I could claim that the
people who accompanied Mary to the tomb included Mother Teresa, Elvis Presley, and Paul Bunyan. Since the writer of John
does not specifically exclude these people, then there is no way to prove that this is not true--if such fragile logic is valid.

All of the above contradictions have been carefully studied, and when necessary the original languages have been consulted.
Although it is always scholarly to consider the original languages, why should that be necessary with the "word of God?" An
omnipotent, omniscient deity should have made his all-important message unmistakably clear to everyone, everywhere, at all
times. No one should have to learn an extinct language to get God's message, especially an ancient language about which there
is much scholarly disagreement. If the English translation is flawed or imprecise, then God failed to get his point across to English
speakers. A true fundamentalist should consider the English version of the bible to be just as inerrant as the original because if
we admit that human error was possible in the translation, then it was equally possible in the original writing. (Some
fundamentalists do assert that the King James Version is perfect. One preacher reportedly said, "If the King James Version was
good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it's good enough for me.") If a contradiction exists in English, then the bible is
contradictory.

The above list of thirty-three contradictions is a very small portion of the thousands of biblical discrepancies that have been
catalogued by scholars. See "Leave No Stone Unturned" for seventeen additional contradictions specific to the resurrection of
Jesus. One monthly publication, "Biblical Errancy," is devoted entirely to this topic (published by Dennis McKinsey, 3158
Sherwood Park Drive, Springfield OH, 45505.) Even if a defender of the bible were to eliminate all of the above (and no one
has come close)"Bible Contradictions," Chapter 23 of Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist, by Dan Barker, published by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., 1992. Copyright 1992 by Dan Barker. Used by permission.

While I immediately see many flaws in your reasoning from your introductory note and the first 5 "apparent contradictions" (upto the 1st #5 that you have--the 2nd #5 I'd have to do some research), I can see why you would be confused. I do sympathize with you. But surely the diligence you applied to compile such a list can lead you to the correct view of your introductory statement and the 1st 5 apparent contradictions.

I'll start with "the author of confusion". This issue is due to human translators. I have found (whenever I have pursued it) that the original languages of the texts have an extremely precise meaning.

I assume your argument would be against the bible as opposed to being against God.

Good Luck in Your Sincere Search for Truth.

[kovan]

your right i am opposed to "today's" bible, because its humanly corrupted.. meaning that humans corrupted it
i believe in "the bible" but how ever such thing doesnt exist today because of human corruption

and about the translations - thats how it got corrupted, people trying to write what THEY THINK it says
and overtime it totally losts its meaning
if you care what i believe in...
i believe in Quran(if you want more info on it i can show ya) why i believe such thing? havent found any contridictions in it AND the text in it is in ORIGINAL form and CANNOT be written in other languages, there is translations of it, but the ORIGINAL text MUST (I SAY MUST) be beside the translation of it so that if ANY doubt of the translator, one can refer to the original text

also i am opened to any new ideas/beliefs.. that is if someone can convince me what i believe is false,

and if anyone know the original text in the bible and can explain the contridictions and show me the uncontridictary i would gladly listen (however i dont argue religion, i discuss)

[Edited by kovan on 09-18-2000 at 11:02 AM]

...to come to the conclusions that you posted for this thread?

I'm always interested in finding the best "original" texts.

[parksie]

What about at the end of Mark's gospel? If you look in the original it's obvious that he didn't write it because it's a totally different writing style. It can't be easily noticed in the translations.

[kovan]

all the information that was found to my knowledge where compiled from the 4 main bible versions(however i have found 39 different versions)
the problem is.. "ORIGINAL" greek&hebrew bibles dont exist "TODAY" they use to at some time...
if they did, bible woudn't be so corrupted
bible is man made
here is one question i have NEVER gotten a straight answer out of any christian..
to trinity believers..
since they believe in trinity, meaning God, Son of God(Jesus) and holy spirit/ghost"

every trinity believer wil agree to the above statement
and if you ask "are all 3 the same?"
all will of course say yes
if they dont agree that means they believe in more than one and therefore they are not monothiests..
but all trinity believers believe all 3 are the same

so if they are the same? how is jesus son of god if he is already god? and i dont even know how spirit/ghost fits into this equation

SOOOOO let say they convince me that all 3 are one, and jesus is son of god and he is god (no one could prove or convince me on this yet.. i would definately like to see this happen)

ok so since god is jesus, jesus is son of god and is god
searching 39 different bible versions i didn't come across ONE verse that jesus states something like "i am god and worship me"

i believe jesus was a prophet messanger, a human being
and with gods permission was able to perform miracles as stated in the quran as follow

Chapter 5, Verse 110 (marium = mary, Allah = God, Isa=Jesus)
(SHAKIR Translations) "When Allah will say: O Isa son of
Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I 
strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the 
people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I 
taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the 
Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like 
the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into 
it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed 
the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you 
brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I 
withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to 
them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among 
them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment"

I admit I wasn't clear. I do believe that we (mankind) have original texts (as in Dead Sea Scrolls and other museum artifacts), but when I said "original" in quotes, I meant a copy that you can own personally.

The Hebrew and Greek texts that I use, having been published/printed within the past decade are not originals, but the closest I can get to. I doubt you will say that you own an original quran (when "There Can Be Only One" -- as we have learned from HighLander ) The common man (not museums) has access to a copy of these texts in Hebrew and Greek.

That is why I asked, "Which Hebrew and Greek texts did you use to come to your conclusions?"Kindly answer.

The answer to your trinity issue is in the third word of the original text of the bible. My personal footnote is the fact that this IS the third word of such a precise book, wherein the Author is extremely interested in Numbers and has dedicated a book (or sub-book of the bible) called appropriately enough, "The Book of Numbers". I call these "harmonics of the harmony of the gospel", where gospel equals the good news of the complete bible. Later, we may get to something Jesus said about "the letter of the law and the stroke of the letter will be fullfilled", but which texts will we begin with and which texts have you used to come to your conclusions?

[kovan]

is it me and my english that am not undrestanding? (i think i know english well)
can you rephrase your questions and response, specially about the trinity part..

and what i meant by "original" is the EXACT copy of the oritinal, no bible exist in any language to have identical content as the original

if you argue that quran could be the same
quran has never been changed, there is over 1 billion around the world, all are IDENTICAL in content
which are identical to 4 copies that are in meuseums that are dated back to 300 after time of jesus (cant say AD cus i dont believe jesus died)

about where i compiled those contridiction? i didn't compile them beconvinced.com compiled them so if you have questions you can contact them cus am not sure..
how ever i did check most of those againts bible references.. and its the same (i used the king james version)

[Gen-X]

VirtuallyVB

I have but 2 points to make :

1. Which Texts

Which texts do you consider the "best"? The ones that agree with what you would like the answers to be? Or ones that have been proven to be real and unadulterated?

I am sure if you read something that does not "feel" true to you then you dismiss it as not being a good translation.

2. Unfamiliar Sound

I think the best point of the whole post was that the bible IS an unfamiliar sound. Can you explain why then the words heavenly inspired and meant for the whole world to follow as a "guide" ring in such a confused manner?

How can anyone be expected to follow them when they have produced such division even among your own people?

[HarryW]

Kovan

The trinity, well, it's like a shamrock

AD is the latin 'anno domini' meaning roughly 'in the year of our Lord', 0 AD is defined by the birth of Christ, not His death. Besides, if you believe that Jesus was a prophet messenger then he must have died at some point or he'd be looking very shaky by now.

VirtuallyVB

What is the third word? This ought to be general knowledge but there's a number of phrases in my head that could be at the start.

What numbers are special in some way under this 'harmonics' method of analysis? I have heard of 'bible code', is this the same thing?

Gen-X

Don't be so sure, you're not VVB.

kovan et al
I believe that the answer to your trinity issue is in Genesis 1, verse 1. It is the Hebrew word for "God". It also happens to be the third word in that verse. The verse has only seven words in Hebrew, the original language of the text.

Show me the "original" that makes your following statement valid, and I'll show you the original text which you seek:

...no bible exist in any language to have identical content as the original

If you cannot start with a Hebrew/Greek text, you cannot even begin to make the following claim in your introduction:

The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim.

Where in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 do you come to the conclusion that you did in "contradiction #1"? Using the King James version, Genesis 1:20-23 states that sea and air creatures were created on the fifth day. How does one conclude that the order was not air then sea creatures (although that is unnecessary for this present discussion)? In Genesis 1:24-31, we read that land animals and man was created on the sixth day.

I've heard that a literary style in that time was to give a synopsis, then expound. This can be seen by carefully reading.
Genesis1:1 is a synopsis of creation; but Genesis1 expounds.
Genesis1 is a synopsis of creation; but Genesis2 expounds.

Apparent Contradiction #1 is not at all a Contradiction.

There are also different Hebrew words used for day and earth that are translated as "day" and "earth". As regards "day", there is a "day" that is an age. As regards "earth", there is an "earth" that is opposite to heavens, but not this planet that we live on.

I was hoping that you would provide access to a more thorough Hebrew and Greek text. I've misplaced a really in depth website that had excellent hyperlinks to these subtleties of the languages. The following link is giving me trouble although I installed the language fonts in the past: http://inthebeginning.net

The book "I'm Glad You Asked" had interesting facts on the authenticity of the biblical texts as compared with modern publications. Sorry it's not on hand to quote it here.

Gen-X et al
1)We've been through this before. Again, I consider my English texts to be lacking compared to Hebrew and Greek texts when matters of precision (and higher "harmonics") are of interest. I prefer to have the translation of the words available and I formulate the translation of the sentences. I have also found TRANSLITERATION a very good resource. The web has provided such sources, but I also have "The Precise Parallel New Testament" with Greek and several English versions and a "Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible" with Strong's concordance. I have found things to be even "better" than what I expected. For instance, I used to think that the OT was about wrath and the NT about mercy. I've found much mercy in the OT and final wrath in the NT.
2)Perhaps the answer to this question is 1 Corinthians 1:18 or Romans 9:11 throughout Romans 11:36.

[Gen-X]

VirtuallyVB

1)We've been through this before.
I have found things to be even "better" than what I expected.

So I was correct in my assumption that if the text makes you feel good (and we all know ANY text that promotes that which you would like to be the truth makes you feel good) then it is considered the "best"

If you were to find a book that all of your research told you was more precise and correct than the ones you had and yet it disclaimed everything in the Bible would you still consider it "the best" or would you disregard it because it was against your beliefs?

You dissapoint me when your answer is a result of what you already believe and that what you already believe is the only answer you will accept.

"Those with absolute faith are blind absolutely"

2)Perhaps the answer to this question is 1 Corinthians 1:18 or Romans 9:11 throughout Romans 11:36

Would you mind explaining those verses... I don't carry a Bible around with me everywhere I go.

Give me the "Reader's Digest" version seeing as you have the "original texts" and anything I may read is already flawed by the fact it happens to be "lacking"

[kovan]

i am no expert
so if you take those contridictions, and give us WHAT you think is the real meaning of the original text...

however i think you will agree that you wont do as good a job as others have
so there for no matter what you do wont close to the original more than king james and others..

i would definately like you to try to find the real meaning of those contridictions and post them to http://www.beconvinced.com because your claiming what they post is INaccurate and they should be notified if they post inaccurate data

you tend to focus on ONE point and stick to it
like you always refer to one or all of the first 5 contridictions... what about the rest?
and if the greek and hebrew copies of the original were SO accurate, why you have such a corrupt bible? 39+ versions
no i dont mean with little differences.. but HUGE differences
that should tell you that bible is corrupt
to prove me wrong on what i said on the above
you have to take EACH one of the contridictions that i claim is a contridiction and PROVE it with biblical references that it IS not a contridiction
if you dont prove so then it is a contridiction until proven other wize, guilty til proven innocent

about that trinity
still doesnt make sense at all
you have a god, a son of god
thats 2 items
and you saying those 2 items are ONE?
last time i checked my son cant be me (I HOPE NOT)

and about jesus claiming he is god
care to tell me with reference where HE says this? not mr james or some other dude that tried to corrupt the bible a little more..

wait til i post set 2
then you will see more clearly

HARRYW - hehe shamrock? maybe thats the next arguement they take on... it got 3 sides, its all one but there are 3 sides.. or something like that.....

about the death.. if you really care what i believe, which i doubt
i believe jesus was never crusified
and that he is alive today and i do believe he will come back

GEN X - i agree with you that what he believes is the only answer he accepts, and if you could convince me that quran is wrong and inaccurate i will rethink my belief
and ALWAYS open to new ideas because i have made finding the truth my first priority


ALL people - if you want to research something different
search on Quran(Koran) and islam
and no i dont mean the islam you hear about on media and terrorist because thats totally different then what islam is
that is my belief i am OPEN to new ideas and different way of thinking
SO FAR again i say this, Quran and Islam has proven to me to be THE absolute truth, but if anyone can make me believe other wize i will listen, how ever i am confident that i have found the truth

Gen-X
NO, you were not correct in your assumption. You must have missed the part about the NT showing wrath were I expected to find mercy. Since I still cling to the bible, your next statement is also incorrect;

If you were to find a book that all of your research told you was more precise and correct than the ones you had and yet it disclaimed everything in the Bible would you still consider it "the best" or would you disregard it because it was against your beliefs?

Do you expect me to apologize that the answer I give is what I have already believed or worse, you are arguing that you only accept answers that are derived at the time you ask the question? Your logic is illogical. You are forgetting that these texts are based on events near 2000 years old. Whether you remain blind or not will not dissapoint me. I am merely providing answers where I believe I can.

Mr. sincere seeker of truth, I provided a link and surely you have not forgotten http://bible.com . I suggest that you change your method of seeking truth or simply avoid posting to this particular thread. The Corinthians verse is a single verse. You can also read only the Romans 9:11 single verse, but I recommend the verses that I have recommended.

You asked what is best and I told you what is better than an English copy (which is inherently lacking). I also stated that I am interested in finding better Greek and Hebrew texts as a recent publication may also posess inaccuracies.

Ever heard, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."? You are on the web, don't tell me you can't look it up.

kovan
I showed you the method I use to decipher the Greek and Hebrew texts when I desire a more accurate meaning. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have found greater accuracy in certain respects over the King James and the NIV.

My first post was to inform you that your post was too lengthy and I immediately saw flaws in the intro and first 5 "contradictions". You didn't give me credit for showing you the error of your ways in one area of your intro and the 1st "contradiction". You could be a teacher because teachers always think that the students can devote all of their time to the teachers class. If I have time to help you, I will, and I have. I also said that your second #5 "contradiction" would require research on my part. You give me alot of credit in this respect. I may not be able to provide all the answers to you and I am definitely not required to do so.
Then you have another volume by the name of "Set 2" on the way. You should be thankfull that anyone has stepped up to assist you in your search for truth.

You don't seem to be "OPEN" to my explanation I have given to the small percentage of your many questions which I did address.

The trinity still doesn't make sense? Tell me what you learned about the third word of the bible.

If you post something here from a source you don't understand, don't expect me to tell your source their error. The obvious response is to tell you, the thread originator, the error. By the way, that ram file a few weeks ago with the Islam/Christian debate looked to me that the Christian was more effective. I'm sure you felt that the Islam guy was more effective. That is an interesting observation if I do say so myself.

Explain what you post at the bottom of your posts about life and death.

Before Abraham was, I am.

[Gen-X]

VirtuallyVB

*sigh*

I went to the website you listed and after spending 10 minutes looking for a place to search for those verses gave up, mainly because the net is incredibly slow at the moment with the Olympic games going on and half the world taking up the bandwidth through to little old Australia where I live.

It doesn't change anything though... As long as the answer is in line with what you WANT it to be you believe it and you have proved it over and over again to the point where I can almost picture you repeating it while rocking backwards and forwards holding your teddy bear

I am baffled as to why you are so STUCK on it.

Let me ask you a question... one I know you will not answer in the way I expect you to answer but I will try and cut off your opportunities to answer the wrong question.

Let us assume you had a topic you knew was shakey, that its validity was very doubtful and yet you wanted it to be right. Lets say you found a book that supported what you wanted to be true and you pointed everyone to it because it is what you wanted to be true. Now lets suppose people pointed out many flaws in that book and you are once again left without a way of making your 'proof' valid again.

How then would you go about providing proof for what you want to believe (but know is doubtful) in such a way that its ability to be disputed was severely minimized?

I am sure you already know the answer and I am sure because you already know the answer you will sit and think on how to answer it DIFFERENTLY because you already know the answer and refuse to allow it be said because it gives weight to what I have been telling you.

But I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and await to hear what suggestions you come up with on making a doubtful topic an absolute without hard evidence.

[HarryW]

You honestly think that Jesus is still alive today? Why?

[kovan]

VIRTUALVB

ok maybe i started off wrong by posting too many at the same time..

so in plain english, King James Version Sucks?

but here is what i will do

post 5 contridictions at the same time

about the trinity

i think this is ENGLISH
it has 3 parts, Jesus, God, ghost/spirit
jesus is son of god, and he is god? hmm how can he be god and son of god?
and can you find me a verse in the greek/hebrew that jesus claims he IS god?
if no such thing (i coudn't find any) then trinity automatically fails

since trinity says jesus is god, but "greek/hebrew" bible doesnt say so, then either the greek/hebrew bible sucks (if that sucks then king james is TRASH?

or if greek/hebrew is correct and DOES NOT mention jesus being GOD
then trinity fails..

so if "original" bible doesnt say jesus is god, either the original bible is wrong or trinity fails.

now if ORIGINAL does state jesus is god
(which i coudn't find)

then someone PLEASE explain it in more detais.

if you like to help researching

search the bible for stating jesus is god

ok i made this post long
end of it

[HarryW]

What? Jesus stating that He is God is not a prerequisite for the trinity idea being true. To use one of Gen-X's common analogies, an orange doesn't have to tell you 'I am an orange' for it to be an orange

The trinity is, as I said, like a shamrock - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all part of the same thing. If you like, they are projections of the same entity. This is certainly not a good starting point for you to try and disprove the ideas Christianity is based on.

kovan
Don't you think that it is a logical approach for a reply to your original post to address your introduction and then to address your first "contradiction"?

Kindly provide an answer to the question I posed about Genesis. I showed you why I believe the order issue is not as you (on behalf of beconvinced.com) said.

Strange. I started this reply exactly at the time you replied (although it wasn't present on the link before I hit "post reply"). But you didn't notice the "Before Abraham was, I am." post.

Hey, I just had a deja vu. ...Now, back to the topic.

I'll give you a hint. I believe that the "Before Abraham was, I am." statement is a claim by Jesus that he is God. If you want a statement like "...and Jesus said to whoever, 'I am God'", then it may not be in the bible. The word "trinity" is also not in the bible I think. Also, you didn't tell me what the third word of the bible is all about. That will help you with the trinity. Tell me about the third word (which is translated to "God" in English).

Now be sincere and also address my comments on "contradiction #1". I've addressed your immediate concern about the trinity although you defy following logically even though you used a numbering system to the "contradictions".

Gen-X et al
I think you are looking for "faith". A good way to scam people would be to say that they need faith (especially when logic arrives at a different conclusion than faith can be said to arrive at).
Unfortunately for you and many others, the final road to enlightenment or salvation may well be "faith".
However, I am trying to discuss subjects with kovan that don't seem to require faith at this time. That is why this particular thread may not be of interest to you at this time. Shouldn't you be struggling with "Does God even exist?"? Go look up "I'm Glad You Asked". It may help you with that first basic question.

[Gen-X]

Kovan

Alas you are wasting your time with VVB.

The answers he will give you will be close to answering the questions you asked but not quite, and those answers will refer to things that are explained such that they cannot be validated or scrutinized.

The end result will be that you are no clearer in your mind as to what the answer is, nor even be able to validate an answer even if you did...

That is the nature of those people who believe... to never give a straight answer or to admit a flaw but to simply refer it to something that cannot be touched, cannot be seen or is so open to interpretation that it isn't funny.

He quotes "The original Hebrew/Greek Texts" and yet he has no idea that sometime over the last 2000 years it wasn't adulterated in some way... he has no idea that the "texts" he reads was not a popular fantasy novel written back in 10AD by the local bard... yet he clings to them and claims they are the absolute truth refering to the existance and creation of this world.

If you say something to him that agreed with his philosophy he will commend you for a hero... if you disagree he will say you are not "open" to seeing. If you ask for more information he will simply say "Go read it in the bible" in an attempt to get you to read it hoping you will be suckered in and suddenly turned into a believer as if the words themselves would change your mind (where is the free will in that?).

Now here is the corker.... I'm no different! If you say something that agrees with my philosophy then I too will commend you for a hero and if you disagree I will say you are not "open".. Yet my "side" is the one of what is beyond all reasonable doubt rather than accepting something purely on "faith" which is to believe WITHOUT evidence.

The only consolation I have is that I KNOW where I am coming from and with that knowledge can hopefully tell those times when I am doing it purely out of my own belief or out of a honest and genuine sense of truth that can withstand prodding from all sides.

I wonder if VVB would even admit the same thing

It was so cute that I couldn't help myself but to reply before I read all of it.

But kovan at least believes in a god. You are the one who is alone.

[Gen-X]

VVB

*sigh*

I guess I gave you too much credit

You are not even going to attempt to answer the question are you?

I wasn't talking about faith at all.. I was talking about when the most "common" version of your Bible is "lacking"... what would a person wishing to fill that void do?

Would you like me to use Crayon? Would that make it clearer?

(Sorry for my terse response but I am getting damn frustrated with your "games", *****-footing around topics and then demanding of other people to provide you answers by going to your bible.com to find them... If every time I made a statement that you disagreed with told you to go look it up at science.com you would feel the same)


This isn't getting anywhere...


You have been right about only 1 thing VVB... that these discussions polarize people towards what they already believed in.... The believers because it shakes their very foundations (subconsciously) that they have to surround themselves in their doctrine to stop from collapsing in a heap and the Non-believers because they see how utterly and completely ridiculous the wishy-washy get-what-you-want answers believers such as yourself come back with.


You still refuse to even answer the simplest question about why God would allow "his work" to be so confusing that nobody can find a clear direction to follow and then send you to hell for all eternity if you don't pick the right path.

[Gen-X]

VVB

Interesting....


So because you are schitzophrenic and believe a personality exist that talks to you constantly and watches over you that means you have someone with you?

If that is the case I would rather be "alone" and share life with the people that are actually ALIVE than waste my time talking to a voice in my head


Have the doctors recommended a treatment for your condition

Gen-X
Here's a fish, ingrate. Too bad you didn't learn how to fish.
http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/En...Search=Romans9
You can start from verse 10.

I see that you still have not learned the difference between "will" and "free will". Remember, we have no "free will" only a "will". Romans 9 is definitely calling you; see verse 19. Notice the "who resists his will" comment. You'll love that one.

The same web page can help you find the Corinthians verse.

Hey, I never received your S.A.S.E. with appropriate fee. What gives?

Ahh, polarization at its finest. You gotta marvel at the grand plan.

Then even you are not alone Gen-X.

But I don't have a verse to back it up

But if you recall, I told you that sin separates us from God.

Maybe there is a contradiction there for kovan.

[Gen-X]

The Quote in Question

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into
the air."

The "possibe" Answers

Romans 9:11
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

VVB, you truely wear the patience of any sane man. I do not nor ever wish to "learn how to fish" if the fish I catch are all "The one that got away" kind of lies and falsehoods. If you wish to make a statement do so... you cannot teach me anything I have not already learned and discarded in this area.


After reading those verses I find that it perfectly confuses the issue and does not even come CLOSE to providing an answer as to why we have 100+ denominations all reading from the SAME book.

By your words and the verses you pointed out this would mean that 99 of them all have it wrong and will rot in hell while the other 1 (whoever that happens to be) will be saved because they followed the TRUE meaning.


It was once asked what contradictions were in the Bible and now someone has posted a heap of them yet you will stand there and without even bothering to confirm their validity for yourself will pick at the bits you can, ignore the bits you can't and when in doubt fall back on your lame "Those versions are lacking... MY versions are better"

And still you wont answer the question of what you would do when your precious "bible" is shown up as the fraud it is.

Why I bother with such stubborn and unsightful people I will never know.... I always knew I could be pig-headed but I am realising now I'm not even in the running for the title

kovan and you are shooting me down because I addressed a few starting points instead of the entire blurb. Yet the starting points are essential. Why NOT start with Genesis 1:1 ?! even as kovan has. There is no sincerity there on either of your parts.

The Author of Confusion issue and man's limitations IS at hand in translations. Again, there is no sincerity there on either of your parts.

It is significant to start with a proper text for such precise analysis. His #1 is readable in English but he didn't answer my questions on specific verses when I showed him the verses that show he is wrong.

You try to make it look like I am being "holier than thou" by saying, "MY" versions when I don't even use the phrase. I've always advocated going to a reliable source and you don't even concede that English cannot be better than the Hebrew and Greek. Give me a break.

[HarryW]

Gen-X - I'm sorry I've forgotten whether you have issue with the whole God thing or just the bible. What do you think of the Qur'an and the Muslim religion? Kovan says that the Koran doesn't contain contradictions, does that make any difference to you?

[Gen-X]

I have issue with ALL religions. In their purest form they are simply man's limited way of trying to explain that which they are unable to explain... and each culture comes up with their own "religion" and then tries to say its "The One" and the rest of the world is wrong.

I haven't read the Qur'an so I cannot comment on whether it has contradictions or not... YOU would say the bible doesn't have contradictions so one would assume that ANY person would say the texts of their own religion are without contradictions, so simply having a believer in their own religion saying its without contradiction is a moot point.

Kovan's claim is the same as yours... that some text to which neither of you personally have absolute knowledge is EXACTLY the same text that existed 2000 years ago, go on believing it like you actually stood there and watched it magically write itself 2000 years ago.

As for it being any different to the bible or bhudda or Zeus or anything else that tries to place the creation of the universe and "us" as the figurehead of that universe they are all the same to me, the excuse of a mind that cannot comprehend what it sees or knows and so for fear of functional disability attributes it to an unknown, unseen, unheard, uninterfering, benevolent and invisible entity that can never be disproved or contradicted.....

It is so convenient that it is this convenience which proves its flaw.


If I were God then of course I would create an entire universe, then run to the smallest corner and create hundreds of thousands of forms of life on a single insignificant and backwater ball of mud and then leave the rest of the place vacent for our own personal enjoyment. Then to top it off have written through a "secretary" my laws for them to follow, but allow them to translate it incorrectly while allowing the other 7/8ths of the population write their OWN religious versions and just sit back and not do anything.

Makes perfect sense to me

[Gen-X]

VVB

Why would you think we are not sincere? Because we simply don't agree with you?

Think about it for a moment. You beleve we are not sincere because we overlook parts you feel are important. We think you are insincere because you overlook parts that WE feel are important. You know in yourself that you are NOT being insincere so that means it is possible we are incorrectly judging you as such.

Why then would you not apply this very same logic to yourself in realising that you are also incorrectly judging our sincerity?


The part I have the greatest trouble with (which is why I think you are insincere because you avoid it like the plague) is your use of the word "reliable"

How do you know your "source" is reliable????

- Were you there 2000 years ago when it was written to watch?
- Did you stay with it for the next 600 generations to see it wasn't altered?
- Do you know how many copies were made and check to make sure none were false?
- Were you there when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found?
- How do you know they were not replaced with something else at that time?
- Do you know that the people who found them did not incorrectly translate it and because of where they are kept nobody can re-translate again?

Your answer to every SINGLE one of these questions is "NO" and yet you still consider it a reliable source.

Why?

Not because it is "reliable" but because it is the source that makes it the hardest to invalidate as you have already witnessed the English Translation of the Bible being invalidated.

How in all good conscience can you place reliability in something that for all intention purposes could have been written and re-written several times over the passed 2000 years!?!?!?!?!?

You just DON'T KNOW

The same goes for Kovan... he doesn't know either, I'm NOT excluding you on this but you are the one who keeps using the word "original" and "reliable" when they could have been on an ancient cornflakes packet for all you know.

There are NO Atheists there.

-Author: FoxHole Resident (or Unknown--take your pick)

I'd even go so far as to wish you one, Gen-X. A foxhole, that is.

Is an English text of the bible more reliable than a Hebrew/Greek text?

Have I not said that I am interested in the Hebrew/Greek texts that kovan used to come to his conclusions?

Unless I read the text that the original "secretary" wrote, I can only approach such a copy. I have expressed interest in improving my source in its reliability.

[Gen-X]

VVB

I *love* the way you ignore things by choice... It confirms all my assumptions that believers will overlook the truth even when it is in front of them.

So I shall (unlike you) answer the question you asked SPECIFICALLY, DIRECTLY and SUCCINCTLY... instead of what you consider to be an answer that rarely says anything.

SMACK

I just smacked myself... why? Because I am decending into sarcasm again... D'oh! No hope for me on that front I guess but I wont stop trying

Is an English text of the bible more reliable than a Hebrew/Greek text?

If you wish to focus this purely on a subjective point of view then yes I agree that a Hebrew/Greet text is ***more*** reliable than an English one.

Of course "more" doesn't actually say that the one which has more of it is actually reliable in itself... just that it is "closer" than the rest.

That doesn't answer the fact that if society and civilization have bastardized a holy text by converting it from Hebrew/Greek to English then why would it be inconceivable that the Hebrew/Greek wasn't itself bastardized in some other way?

To point out a pattern but then say the pattern STOPS when it comes to what YOU want to be true is ignorant.

Now do I get my answer as to why you would place such reliability in something you have absolutely no clue as to its authenticity???? (Re my list of several questions.. I would like to hear you say No to each of them but somehow I do not think you have the dignity or the enlightenment to admit it)

Have I not said that I am interested in the Hebrew/Greek texts that kovan used to come to his conclusions?

No. What you actually did was point out that the english translations are flawed and attempted to do so in a pompous manner by asking the question of which Hebrew/Greek texts he used so that you could purposely slap him in the face with their corrupted nature.

This is proof of the fact that you rely on the Hebrew/Greek texts (which few know of, can find or can even translate) to "save" you where the english versions have severely let you down. Have you started speaking Greek or Hebrew yet? Obviously it is much better than English and as you are so concerned with everything being taken the way it was meant it would seem hypocritical for you to continue speaking a language that causes so many incorrect interpretations.

Unless I read the text that the original "secretary" wrote, I can only approach such a copy. I have expressed interest in improving my source in its reliability.

But you cannot improve your source... because you have no idea of the validity of ANY sources.

That is what I have been trying to tell you all along... Nobody can rely on any sources they have, which means what you are left with is to use common sense and a logical and reasoning mind.

If I were to pick up a science book written 2000 years ago I would not accept it simply because it was written 2000 years ago... in fact I would probably renounce it because of the logical flaws it had in it.

Why do you see religous texts as any different? Why all of a sudden are there no more "God-inspired" works out there that get the same recognition as the Bible? And who first GAVE the Bible its recognition? Where was it generally accepted as being "THE BIBLE"?

A tiny little city called Jeruselim in the smallest corner of our world had an idea and then proclaimed to the world that this idea was the BE-ALL and END-ALL for the rest of the world... Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit strange?

If Jesus/God/Whatever had a message to carry to the ENTIRE world 2000 years ago wouldn't he have appeared in every country? Visited ALL of his people be they African, Middle Eastern, Aboriginal or Asian?

The holes are getting bigger my friend and the more that comes out the more obviously it is flawed and the more readily it defies everything we have ever known or even been told... The only people unable to see this are those who would cease to function if they allowed it to become true....

How would you fair if your brain accepted the fact there was not a God?

[HarryW]

I have never said that the bible doesn't contain flaws. I don't even read the bible, why would I say that?

I have lived as an atheist up to a year or two ago when I started to consider the possibilities again, so I am quite capable of living with or without a God. I should think that just about everyone else is too.

Gen-X, I know what you mean about religions being an explanation for the unexplainable and to some extent I am in agreement with that, but if that's the case does it exclude the possibility of a God? I tend to see the gods of all religions as the same God, represented in different ways.

Don't you think that the concept of the universe always having existed, being reborn every few trillenia (? a long time anyway) is quite a stretch of the imagination? Or, in the open universe model, don't you think it strange that the universe could be created out of nothing for no apparent reason?

If you were, for a moment, to discard all the religious teachings about humanity and the bigger picture, could you accept the possibility that a God (not a god related to any specific religion) instigated the universe's birth? Why does this seem like an impossible situation to you?

[Bjwbell]

My question is if there is a God then who created the God?