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Thread: a speech by Li Guangyao at the University of Hong Kong in 1992

  1. #41
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That WOULD be some really good fusion food.

    Trump annoys me. He claims to be the same height as I am, and he probably was, once. However, he claims to be quite a bit lighter than I am, yet his chin is larger than my whole body.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Weight is ALWAYS fake news. Other than that, guilty as charged.
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Those are some pretty grandiose claims.. don't suppose you have any evidence for them? They seem very anecdotal.

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Provide some proof of this... these seem like complete bull you're pulling out of someplace the sun don't shine.

    For example:

    (8) Chinese people know more about world information than any other country. Any information (text, pictures, audio, video) that can attract attention or generate benefits (including political benefits) will surely be moved to Chinese social media. The Chinese government's blockade to certain Internet companies has not affected people's access to information.
    That claim means absolutely nothing as it is completely generic. Do you speak for 1.4 billion people? I work for a university that has a large Chinese population and talking to these university students does not support your claim. Most are very ignorant of both social norms in North America and North American culture in general.

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Sounds like a mighty dull movie. How about some support for those claims while we wait?
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  13. #53
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    You're sounding more and more delusional. You spout grandiose claims with no evidence, delete posts after a certain timeperiod to hide your position, etc. You're also going with the whole "democrats"/"leftists" are manipulating the world.

    It is also weird you say the democrats are ruining the US relationship with China, but have also specifically stated it is Trump causing all the problems. Is it the democrats or republicans?

    Come to think of it, didn't you also post something a while back saying that the Tiananmen Square protests didn't happen and were handled perfectly by the Chinese government? Maybe I'll skip whatever movie is coming...

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Hi kfcSmitty, you don't understand China's political ecology at all. The Democrats and Liberals in China I'm talking about are not the Democrats in the United States. The main purpose of China's democrats and liberals is to overthrow the existing Chinese government. To achieve this, they can work with any foreign agency that supports them, including the US Republican Party, Democratic Party, and even the CIA. They even cooperated with Japanese militarists.

    You know too little about China. Let's stop talking about this topic.
    I'm starting to think you don't really know anything about China either, lol. Someone asks for some kind of evidence for a claim you have and it is always "you don't understand." Maybe you need to actually provide some support for your side of the argument? All anyone in this thread has done is ask for evidence from you, which you have yet to provide in any way, shape, or form.

    It's also funny that China has any parties at all, since even the Democracy Index lists it as authoritarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index, you can see the whitepaper here: https://www.eiu.com/public/topical_r...cracyindex2019
    Last edited by kfcSmitty; May 27th, 2020 at 12:00 PM.

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  18. #58
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    The conversation is over.
    Once again I ask for some evidence, and "This conversation is over." I'll see if I can find the post you made about the square.

    Here is the thread:

    http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...B6-forum/page2

    Here is the post:

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Perhaps that is what your sources said that but Google did not such thing. Google was forced into suspending Huawei's Android license following a move by the US government to list the Chinese tech giant among firms that US companies are banned from doing business with. I can Google Tiananmen Square. What happens when you try and search on it? That is why Google is banned in China...

    What happens when you click this link?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen
    and your reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Do you know? What you see are isolated photos, and what I see are live broadcasts (both live broadcasts from Chinese and foreign TV stations). My alumni, my teachers, and my neighbors were all actual experiences of the incident. Some are college students, some are teachers, and some are soldiers. I don't think you know more than me. Politics is extremely dirty and ugly, both in China and in the United States. I don't want to talk about politics, let's stop this topic. Some things will only be deciphered after many years, let history judge them.
    I was being intentionally obtuse when I said "perfectly," but the point still stands.

    Did you watch the videos I sent? You still don't understand one thing: I can see any information you see. You can't see or understand most of the information I see. Continuing the dialogue is a waste of time, especially this unpleasant political dialogue.
    Additonal edit: No, I did not see your videos you posted and then took down 30 minutes later. Leave them up if you want someone to view them.

    In regards to the quote above, I also find the best conversations are had when one party deems themselves superior to all others. It definitely opens up lines of communication for an equal exchange of ideas and understadings.
    Last edited by kfcSmitty; May 27th, 2020 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Find the truth yourself.
    No. Once again: Gatekeeping via information burden. If you want to make an argument it's up to you to make it. It's not up to your detractors to make it for you.

    Let's stop talking about this topic.
    You can do that any time you want. The problem is that you clearly only want that to happen once you've been afforded the last word. But you have no entitlement to that.

    Because the lies that the democrats and liberals deceived the people 10 years ago
    I have no idea what you're referring to here and I'm not going to investigate on your behalf because, again: gatekeeping by information burden. Feel free to explain, give a prese and provide sources. I will take you seriously but 1. I'm not going to do the work of convincing myself for you and 2. I may still disagree.

    Did you watch the videos I sent?
    No. You'd already deleted them before I came back to this thread. I probably wouldn't have watched them anyway because, again: gatekeeping by information burden. Video is lengthy to consume - provide a prese.

    Reading between the lines I'm guessing that you deleted them because they're dangerous to post from China, is that right? Assuming it is, think about what that says about censorship in China. If that's not right your motive for deleting them is a mystery to me.

    Don't always expect others to give you everything. If you are interested in these things, why don't you find the answer yourself?
    I think you can guess what I'm going to say now can't you? Gatekeeping by information burden.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; May 27th, 2020 at 12:57 PM.
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  22. #62
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Why do you understand a completely different meaning from my words.

    In addition, more brutal videos can only exist on the Internet for a short time, and then will be deleted by the network administrator soon. The network administrators of FaceBook and Twitter are doing the same thing.
    Maybe because of the language barrier, maybe because you weren't clear. I don't know. That post clearly looks to me like you're defending the actions of the Chinese government in that situation, and based on other posts in that thread, I'm not alone.

    If you post a video and they're taken down, we will get an error saying video not found. Just leave them up and if they get taken down, at least doesn't appear you're hiding anything.

  23. #63
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    OK, I decided to watch one of the videos (us mods can backtrack through every edit you make). It was of four or five guys beating up another guy (beating him into unconciosness with a fire extinguisher) before being seen off by passers by. It was very violent and certainly not appropriate to be posted on this forum so please don't do so again. I encourage you to provide sources to back up your argument but those source must be apropriate to this forum. (Normally we'd issue a warning for posting something like that but I understand that you were posting it in support of an argument rather than going for a cheap shock so I'll give you a by on that.)

    But I'm left none the wiser about what point you were trying to make though. That Wiebo contains violent videos? So what? 1. I can find similar video on Western streaming sites if I want to and 2. The accusation your trying to defend the Chinese government from is that they suppress criticism of the Chinese government, not that they try to supress violent imagery.

    So what was the argument that the videos were intended to make?
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; May 27th, 2020 at 12:59 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  25. #65
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    From this point, you can see that your thinking is very simple. You can only consider one or two situations, and you will not think of the third or more possibilities. (Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But when I talked to you and others, I felt like I was talking to a baby because the amount of information we knew was too different and the environment we were in was too different)
    roflmao.. can't think of any other response to someone so ignorant.

    I think I've found a video more along your supreme thinking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhxTwcslfCY
    Last edited by kfcSmitty; May 27th, 2020 at 01:09 PM.

  26. #66
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Because they will "human search"(let's dig him up) you and harass you.
    Over here we refer to that as Doxxing. Yeah it's a pretty sick thing to do, it happens here, it happens there, so what? I find it interesting that your argument has now shifted from how the Western media are the big bad to how Chinese liberals are the big bad.

    If your argument is that the Western media are bad actors I'm going to continue to make the case that the Chinese government are worse. I don't feel like you've debunked my position on. that. In truth, I didn't even have a position to start with. If you look at my previous posts you'll notice that I was actually open to the prospect that we (in the bubble of our own western media) might not recognise our own bias. But what I'm seeing from you looks like the blind repetition of propaganda - that is actually having the opposite of you desired effect.

    If your argument is that Chinese liberals are bad actors, go right ahead. I honestly don't know enough about them to hold a position on that and I'm open to being convinced. But it will be up to you to convince me... with concise argument backed sources. If you think simply stating "Libs are bad" is going to do it you'll be sadly disappointed.

    edit> made some additions to the second paragraph.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; May 27th, 2020 at 01:14 PM.
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  30. #70
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    A large number of bad guys posing as liberals and democrats
    Yeah, we have a similar problem over here (speaking for the UK, not the USA) and it does come from both the left and the right (though not the liberals but I think that's a difference in the way we're using the word).

    In fact, I myself used to be a violent anarchist and anti-racism protester in the early 90s. I still think my cause was just (well, not the anarchism bit but definitely the anti racism) but, in hindsight, our methods often were not and I've definitely done things I regret. Violence is an intoxicating drug. It's easy to justify it's use when you see your political opponents as enemies but that justification is no justification at all and it makes you as bad, if not worse, than your targets. I think the same of doxxing, cancelling... all the clever tricks the internet uses to ruin peoples lives in the name of their own beliefs.

    But the thing that strikes me about that video, as a non Chinese speaker I cannot contextualise the political leanings of any of the people involved in it. I see a group of guys beating up another guy, nothing more. Any context is provided by the narrative around it and that's easily manipulated.

    Western countries (mainly the United States) provide large amounts of funds every year to support these so-called democrats.
    Now you're really going to have to provide a credible source on that.

    edit>
    I want to apologize
    No worries, my skin's plenty thick enough to cope with that.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  31. #71
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Now you're really going to have to provide a credible source on that.
    Haha don't hold your breath! okok, I'm done instigating.

  32. #72

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  33. #73
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    This is an open secret in China. Even the US government did not evade this problem at all.
    Yeah, we have a word for that, too: Rumor.

    In some cases, we even have a term for that: Conspiracy Theory.

    After all, every conspiracy theory is about a theory that the in group thinks they have figured out. They all believe it, so it is an open secret.

    It's all nonsense, though. Just ask yourself: How many people would have to be keeping this a secret for this to be considered a secret? If the answer is more than about three, then ask yourself the next question: Is this something that would matter to a lot (hundreds or thousands) of people if they knew about it?

    If the answer to both questions is yes, then there either IS proof that you could provide, or else you should consider the story to be false. People don't keep secrets when they can gain an advantage by revealing them. There have been a few exceptions to this rule, but very few.

    Having said that, I'm not sure this amounts to a secret. Technically, you said nothing, so establishing whether it is true or not isn't really possible. The statement was:

    Western countries (mainly the United States) provide large amounts of funds every year to support these so-called democrats.
    "Large amounts of fund". What does that mean? Give me a thousand bucks and I'll be sure to thank you. Is that a large amount of funds? Yes to some, no to others.


    "provide large amounts of funds every year to support" What does that mean? If you buy girl scout cookies, you are providing funds to support a group...but the reasons behind that support are much more complicated, so the act of buying girl scout cookies can't be taken as an indication that the purchaser supports the group.

    So, the statement is devoid of value because it can be true, not true, and subjectively true, all at the same time.
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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  35. #75
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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    I have to say that kfcSmitty is a person who makes me very uncomfortable, I know he feels the same as me.
    Don't know what you mean by uncomfortable, but the only feelings I have about you is that you're conceded, very rude, and seem to have very strong opinions without any proof of them.

    If that is the defintion of uncomfortable, then yeah. However, the only part that rubs me the wrong way is "very rude." Especially towards someone like Funky or Shaggy who have been nothing but pleasant in all these conversations.

    You make statements like they're fact, but refuse to back them up and then insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. That is, unfortunately, not uncommon in todays day and age, but you act like you're above it.

    Post SOMETHING, ANYTHING with any substance, and an actual conversation can happen. You're not willing to do that, so all this is, is a thread where you make ridiculous claims, and everyone else is asking for some kind of proof (geeze I am sounding like a broken record).

    Shaggy (or is it Funky? maybe both), have literally done nothing but post the same thing, albeit in a less confrontational way.

  36. #76

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

    You make statements like they're fact, but refuse to back them up and then insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. That is, unfortunately, not uncommon in todays day and age, but you act like you're above it.
    Maybe it's a language barrier problem. You do make all these wild claims and accusations (some very insulting to our countries) and if we disagree then you basically call us all idiots. You present yourself as the only one who knows the truth. You have the right to your opinion but so do we.

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    Re: Will the democratic system only make the society go backwards?

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    Re: a speech by Li Guangyao at the University of Hong Kong in 1992

    I'm very sorry, all my comments in this thread are just a vent of personal negative emotions, they have no value, so I deleted them all.

    I'm pessimistic about the future relationship between China and the United States. But let it be, we can do nothing.

  40. #80
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: a speech by Li Guangyao at the University of Hong Kong in 1992

    I'm pessimistic about the future relationship between China and the United States
    Personally I'm cautiously optimistic.

    The US has been by far the most powerful player on the world stage since the end of the cold war but China has been catching up rapidly for the last couple of decades. You already surpassed the UK, which used to be viewed as more important. Realistically, there is a very good chance that you are going to be the next dominant world power. My prediction is that you will be.

    That's going to be difficult for the US to adjust to and there are going to be Trumps along the way who will lash out at you to harness the power of populism. But for every Trump presenting a hostile face of the US, there is an army of diplomats working to ensure that the US gets the best possible outcome, and the best outcome is actually co-operation between the two nations. The US is going to need to get over it's deep seated exceptionalism but the UK managed it and we were WAY more exceptionalist in the days of empire than the US has ever been.

    My perspective is that I lived through a cold war where NATO and Russia weren't trading at all, weren't talking and came within a hairs breadth of actual nuclear war on multiple occasions. The situation between China and the US isn't anywhere near as bad as that. Despite the tariffs (which I consider a stupid move on the US's part) you're still trading. And despite the occasional insults tweeted back and forth between the leaders, weirdly interspersed with Yo Bro backslapping, the army of diplomats are still talking. And there's really no fear at all of actual war between the nations.

    I think it's easy to focus on the current bellicose rhetoric and see a much greater threat than is actually there. But, honestly, the only concrete detriment that Trump has managed to construct is some trade tariffs. Those tariffs are stupid, but they're not that bad.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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