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Thread: Impeachment

  1. #41
    ex-Administrator brad jones's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And that's different from any other day of the week how???
    -tg
    It's different because they aren't creating new laws to further restrict what we can do or adding new taxes to take more of our money. Sometimes distraction is good......

  2. #42
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    I've come around to the view that this has to go forwards. The Economist laid it out pretty clearly. If nobody says anything this time, then it becomes OK for any president to extort foreign countries for political gains. Sure, they're saying there was no quid pro quo, but that's nonsense. Just because he didn't explicitly state what he wanted, that doesn't matter. It's even a cliché that you don't be explicit about things like that: "Mighty nice aid package you have there, shame if anything happened to it."

    So, if no action is taken, then this becomes the new line, which is a bad thing.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I've come around to the view that this has to go forwards. The Economist laid it out pretty clearly. If nobody says anything this time, then it becomes OK for any president to extort foreign countries for political gains. Sure, they're saying there was no quid pro quo, but that's nonsense. Just because he didn't explicitly state what he wanted, that doesn't matter. It's even a cliché that you don't be explicit about things like that: "Mighty nice aid package you have there, shame if anything happened to it."

    So, if no action is taken, then this becomes the new line, which is a bad thing.
    I agree it has to be done even though the chance of actually ousting Trump is very small.

  4. #44
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    Re: Impeachment

    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained.

    The odds of it going anywhere are vanishingly small since there aren't any grounds. Whatever Trump may have tried to obtain, he didn't get anything. And what he seems to have been after looks completely appropriate: information about the 2016 election meddling by Ukrainians. And that only after he was asked by the State Department to meet with Ukrainian officials in the first place.

    Meanwhile the partisan pandering has caused Trump's popularity and campaign fund raising to rise substantially, while causing many habitual Democratic voters to become more distrustful of a Party that seems more out of touch than ever with their needs.

    Motivating Trump's support while demotivating your own doesn't seem like a very sharp strategy.

    I think they realize this and are now caught in a bind. It is hard to wind this down and let it die. For one thing they've allowed it to go too far already, for another Biden's very real corruption has been highlighted and won't go away as easily.

    So now they can't back out but every inch ahead just costs them more. It is almost enough to make you wonder if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.

    It seems pretty obvious that the facts are being ignored and the Trump Deranged are only bent on feeding their affliction.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator RobDog888's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And that's different from any other day of the week how???


    -tg
    Its the same but on a larger scale lol
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  6. #46
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained.

    The odds of it going anywhere are vanishingly small since there aren't any grounds. Whatever Trump may have tried to obtain, he didn't get anything. And what he seems to have been after looks completely appropriate: information about the 2016 election meddling by Ukrainians. And that only after he was asked by the State Department to meet with Ukrainian officials in the first place.

    Meanwhile the partisan pandering has caused Trump's popularity and campaign fund raising to rise substantially, while causing many habitual Democratic voters to become more distrustful of a Party that seems more out of touch than ever with their needs.

    Motivating Trump's support while demotivating your own doesn't seem like a very sharp strategy.

    I think they realize this and are now caught in a bind. It is hard to wind this down and let it die. For one thing they've allowed it to go too far already, for another Biden's very real corruption has been highlighted and won't go away as easily.

    So now they can't back out but every inch ahead just costs them more. It is almost enough to make you wonder if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.

    It seems pretty obvious that the facts are being ignored and the Trump Deranged are only bent on feeding their affliction.
    That would be a partisan filter in itself. The Economist, a British magazine that isn't US partisan, doesn't state the same interpretation of the data that you did. I don't know where you got the "information about the 2016 meddling by Ukrainians", but that wouldn't bother anybody. It appears that he withheld aid, then asked for information on Biden's son. Now, people can disagree as to whether or not that happened, but that's the appearance.

    At that point, if you set aside your personal view about the current events, is that behavior that is acceptable? I'd say that it isn't, and should be enough for the inquiry. At that point, the inquiry has to go forwards, regardless of which side benefits more from it, because it shouldn't be a question of political gain (though, of course it will be). It should solely be a question of whether we want to live with a system where such action is OK. Let the inquiry decide whether or not anything happened, and do so by conducting it openly. When that was done with Nixon, the fact that the tapes existed only came out in open testimony. When the Republicans conducted the inquiry into Clinton, they did it largely as a closed process. Let it be open, and let the results be as they will be. If the consensus is that something bad happened, or something bad did not happen, then let it be aired out either way.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Impeachment

    if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.
    If he wasn't smart he wouldn't have got where he was in business.
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  8. #48
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    If he wasn't smart he wouldn't have got where he was in business.
    He would. Had he taken the money he inherited, and invested in an index fund at the same time, he would be worth considerably more than he currently claims to be. In other words, he started with a LOT, and turned it into less than he would have had he not been involved.
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  9. #49

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    Re: Impeachment

    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained
    Surely it's not about what's to be gained, it's about what you stand to lose. It's moved on from just Ukraine and at this point you have a President who is openly asking foreign governments to interfere in your electoral process. If you allow that to go unchallenged then there are no rules any more. No matter where you sit on the political divide, think about the ramifications of that when there's a president whose policies you oppose.

    It appears that he withheld aid, then asked for information on Biden's son. Now, people can disagree as to whether or not that happened...
    I don't think people can disagree, both things happened and nobody is denying either one. The only question was whether they represented a quid pro quo or just a remarkable coincidence.
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  10. #50
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    My point is that, in this world where every fact is doubted by the other side, I'm not suggesting that people need to accept the facts that I accept. I'm just saying that there is a principle here that goes above politics. I love the political game, and would tend to agree with the weighting of alternatives that Dilettante put forward, but this is a case where I believe that the game should be set aside for the principle at stake. Nobody should want this to be acceptable behavior, so it should be investigated, and it should be investigated out in the open. That may not happen, it just SHOULD happen.
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  11. #51

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    Re: Impeachment

    Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think Trump engaged in some shady practices from the get go but I felt that most of them fell within the lines of "real politic". They were challengeable and often defeatable by the Dems without risking permanent damage to your political constructs and principles.

    For me, this feels like it crosses those lines. It says that, going forward, the agency of your domestic institutions can be legitimately undermined by foreign governments. You will no longer own your own democracy.

    That has to be challenged, for better or worse, not because people do or don't like Trump, but rather because of the precedent it sets.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

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