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Thread: Impeachment

  1. #41
    ex-Administrator brad jones's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And that's different from any other day of the week how???
    -tg
    It's different because they aren't creating new laws to further restrict what we can do or adding new taxes to take more of our money. Sometimes distraction is good......

  2. #42
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    Re: Impeachment

    I've come around to the view that this has to go forwards. The Economist laid it out pretty clearly. If nobody says anything this time, then it becomes OK for any president to extort foreign countries for political gains. Sure, they're saying there was no quid pro quo, but that's nonsense. Just because he didn't explicitly state what he wanted, that doesn't matter. It's even a cliché that you don't be explicit about things like that: "Mighty nice aid package you have there, shame if anything happened to it."

    So, if no action is taken, then this becomes the new line, which is a bad thing.
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I've come around to the view that this has to go forwards. The Economist laid it out pretty clearly. If nobody says anything this time, then it becomes OK for any president to extort foreign countries for political gains. Sure, they're saying there was no quid pro quo, but that's nonsense. Just because he didn't explicitly state what he wanted, that doesn't matter. It's even a cliché that you don't be explicit about things like that: "Mighty nice aid package you have there, shame if anything happened to it."

    So, if no action is taken, then this becomes the new line, which is a bad thing.
    I agree it has to be done even though the chance of actually ousting Trump is very small.

  4. #44
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    Re: Impeachment

    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained.

    The odds of it going anywhere are vanishingly small since there aren't any grounds. Whatever Trump may have tried to obtain, he didn't get anything. And what he seems to have been after looks completely appropriate: information about the 2016 election meddling by Ukrainians. And that only after he was asked by the State Department to meet with Ukrainian officials in the first place.

    Meanwhile the partisan pandering has caused Trump's popularity and campaign fund raising to rise substantially, while causing many habitual Democratic voters to become more distrustful of a Party that seems more out of touch than ever with their needs.

    Motivating Trump's support while demotivating your own doesn't seem like a very sharp strategy.

    I think they realize this and are now caught in a bind. It is hard to wind this down and let it die. For one thing they've allowed it to go too far already, for another Biden's very real corruption has been highlighted and won't go away as easily.

    So now they can't back out but every inch ahead just costs them more. It is almost enough to make you wonder if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.

    It seems pretty obvious that the facts are being ignored and the Trump Deranged are only bent on feeding their affliction.

  5. #45
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And that's different from any other day of the week how???


    -tg
    Its the same but on a larger scale lol
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  6. #46
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained.

    The odds of it going anywhere are vanishingly small since there aren't any grounds. Whatever Trump may have tried to obtain, he didn't get anything. And what he seems to have been after looks completely appropriate: information about the 2016 election meddling by Ukrainians. And that only after he was asked by the State Department to meet with Ukrainian officials in the first place.

    Meanwhile the partisan pandering has caused Trump's popularity and campaign fund raising to rise substantially, while causing many habitual Democratic voters to become more distrustful of a Party that seems more out of touch than ever with their needs.

    Motivating Trump's support while demotivating your own doesn't seem like a very sharp strategy.

    I think they realize this and are now caught in a bind. It is hard to wind this down and let it die. For one thing they've allowed it to go too far already, for another Biden's very real corruption has been highlighted and won't go away as easily.

    So now they can't back out but every inch ahead just costs them more. It is almost enough to make you wonder if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.

    It seems pretty obvious that the facts are being ignored and the Trump Deranged are only bent on feeding their affliction.
    That would be a partisan filter in itself. The Economist, a British magazine that isn't US partisan, doesn't state the same interpretation of the data that you did. I don't know where you got the "information about the 2016 meddling by Ukrainians", but that wouldn't bother anybody. It appears that he withheld aid, then asked for information on Biden's son. Now, people can disagree as to whether or not that happened, but that's the appearance.

    At that point, if you set aside your personal view about the current events, is that behavior that is acceptable? I'd say that it isn't, and should be enough for the inquiry. At that point, the inquiry has to go forwards, regardless of which side benefits more from it, because it shouldn't be a question of political gain (though, of course it will be). It should solely be a question of whether we want to live with a system where such action is OK. Let the inquiry decide whether or not anything happened, and do so by conducting it openly. When that was done with Nixon, the fact that the tapes existed only came out in open testimony. When the Republicans conducted the inquiry into Clinton, they did it largely as a closed process. Let it be open, and let the results be as they will be. If the consensus is that something bad happened, or something bad did not happen, then let it be aired out either way.
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    Re: Impeachment

    if Trump might be a lot smarter than he looks.
    If he wasn't smart he wouldn't have got where he was in business.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    If he wasn't smart he wouldn't have got where he was in business.
    He would. Had he taken the money he inherited, and invested in an index fund at the same time, he would be worth considerably more than he currently claims to be. In other words, he started with a LOT, and turned it into less than he would have had he not been involved.
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  9. #49

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    Re: Impeachment

    I'm not sure how there is anything to be gained
    Surely it's not about what's to be gained, it's about what you stand to lose. It's moved on from just Ukraine and at this point you have a President who is openly asking foreign governments to interfere in your electoral process. If you allow that to go unchallenged then there are no rules any more. No matter where you sit on the political divide, think about the ramifications of that when there's a president whose policies you oppose.

    It appears that he withheld aid, then asked for information on Biden's son. Now, people can disagree as to whether or not that happened...
    I don't think people can disagree, both things happened and nobody is denying either one. The only question was whether they represented a quid pro quo or just a remarkable coincidence.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Impeachment

    My point is that, in this world where every fact is doubted by the other side, I'm not suggesting that people need to accept the facts that I accept. I'm just saying that there is a principle here that goes above politics. I love the political game, and would tend to agree with the weighting of alternatives that Dilettante put forward, but this is a case where I believe that the game should be set aside for the principle at stake. Nobody should want this to be acceptable behavior, so it should be investigated, and it should be investigated out in the open. That may not happen, it just SHOULD happen.
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  11. #51

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    Re: Impeachment

    Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think Trump engaged in some shady practices from the get go but I felt that most of them fell within the lines of "real politic". They were challengeable and often defeatable by the Dems without risking permanent damage to your political constructs and principles.

    For me, this feels like it crosses those lines. It says that, going forward, the agency of your domestic institutions can be legitimately undermined by foreign governments. You will no longer own your own democracy.

    That has to be challenged, for better or worse, not because people do or don't like Trump, but rather because of the precedent it sets.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Impeachment

    Is Trump going to get Impeached for his Christmas present this year? The latest released info doesn't seem to show him particularly well and the Democrats don't seem to be treating Christmas as 'a Season of goodwill to all'.
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  13. #53
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    Is Trump going to get Impeached for his Christmas present this year?
    It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas..... and impeachment.

    If impeached, would he leave office? That's a separate question as is, would his base care if he were impeached?

    The most interesting thing about this case is that most of the attacks on what is happening are on the processes and not as much about the facts. Where facts are called into question, people seem to be rewriting reality. The whole focus on "read the transcript" is mind-blowing because the document that was released even states that it is not a transcript. Even so, Trump's team and thus his base keep saying "read the transcript".

    The media manipulation is amazing as well. It's like having the republican party storm the close sessions as a press stunt and bringing in phones and recording - which they know is a violation. Making a huge deal about being kept out of the meeting, when several of those that were "storming" were a part of the meetings along with about 57 other republicans.

    The entire thing is worse than a reality TV show.

    As to impeaching by Christmas..... The democrats need to drag this out a bit longer than that. They need it to go until about next summer. That way the republicans don't have time to pull in a viable candidate to compete against whatever person they put in place - which right now doesn't seem to include any good candidates for representing the majority of the country.

    It's odd times in America. Hearing what people from outside the US think and are seeing (their perspective), is always interesting as well!

  14. #54
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    Re: Impeachment

    but the Dems with 22?! TWENTY-TWO! I don't see how anybody can be taking any of them seriously at this point.
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  15. #55
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    Re: Impeachment

    In America, if Trump's found guilty - what are the penalties he could face? Although the UK has impeachment, it was last used in 1806 when 1st Viscount Melville was acquitted of the charge of misappropriation of public money.
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  16. #56
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    Re: Impeachment

    If the house impeaches the president, they will forward articles of impeachment to the senate, which will conduct the trial. The rules of that are set by the majority party, but the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over the proceedings. The rules, in this case, are essentially the same as those used for Clinton, which certainly favors one side, but not terribly. If the senate convicts, then Trump is removed from office. The senate won't convict, so there's that. What may happen is that a fair trial, fully public, will result in people either feeling there is nothing there, or that there is something there, which would have some impact on the next election. At this time, though, it doesn't seem likely that this will move a single person from the position they are at, currently.
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    Re: Impeachment

    I agree with sh, the articles of impeachment will be sent to the Senate but the Republican controlled Senate won't convict. If the public response is so overwhelming in favor of impeachment that the Republican Senators are worried about getting re-elected then they might convict but Trump supports seem extremely loyal and are more than willing to give Trump free reign to do and say anything. So I doubt that will happen.

    I disagree with Brad. If the Senate won't convict, then the Dem's need to make their point and show the President's abuse of power quickly. After that they really need to get refocused on winning the 2020 election. If this drags out to the summer and Trump is acquitted he could use that one fact to win the election. It seem a lot of voters only need one little shiny object to convince them who to vote for. Make america Great, Built that Wall.....

  18. #58
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    Re: Impeachment

    There's another reason why Congress has to move this quickly. Once the current term of Congress ends, all outstanding subpoenas evaporate. They don't carry over to the next Congress, they simply cease to be valid.

    One of the most interesting legal points in this whole thing is the whole balance of power. The senate would normally be very interested in the subpoena power of Congress, and would be actively backing anything to do with that, but that's not the case. Trump has such an unusual hold on the Republican party that Republican senators are acting against their best interests for fear of being attacked from the right. Many of them strongly supported the power of Congress, but they're notably silent now.
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    Re: Impeachment

    It's not only in the best interest of Republican Senators, I think it's in the best interest of everyone. It makes the Congress weak if their subpoenas can just be ignored. Trump has really exposed how weak and cowardly most of our representatives/senators are. Their biggest concern is keeping their job. Right now we're only seeing it from the Republicans but if Trump was a Democrat the result would be the same. I haven't paid much attention to politics most of my life, I'm heading back in that direction. Empty words!!!

    On the brighter side,

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    I can't say I agree with that. My mother was an elected representative at several different levels of government for many years until she retired. I've spent many days watching debates on various subjects, boring and not, from the visitor gallery, though that was decades back. People like to be dismissive of politics, but you shouldn't be. It's both better and worse than you imagine it to be. We like to turn the actions of legislative bodies into coherent narratives with a start, a middle, and an end. It isn't like that. It's just life. You have a bunch of people with different interests and different concerns, each pulling on strings large and small to a greater or lesser extent. Still, they are just people, like any other people. Not better, not smarter, but not worse, either. What you see is what we all created. If you want it to change, you may or may not be able to do that if you get involved, but you certainly won't get where you want to go by disengaging.
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    Re: Impeachment

    I certainly never thought disengaging would change anything but it does keep my frustration and disappointment levels much lower, I like that. I think being a US Sentator is completely different beast than being a local or even state representatives. It costs so much and people are indebted in so many ways that they can't put the needs of the people they represent first or even second. But they have to be willing to lie and say they will. Interesting career choice.

  22. #62
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    They will also have been in elected office for most of their lives by the time they reach the senate. That will make them different from the average voter anyways.
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    Re: Impeachment

    So I gather it all goes public this week and the fireworks have already started. I imagine this will really be the make or break stage. While things have been going on behind closed doors both sides will entrench but once things are public it will be a little harder (though far from impossible) for the public to double down on their prejudices. If Trump's actions really have been shady the public is more likely to turn against him. If not I imagine he gets a surge in support.
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    Re: Impeachment

    I'm starting to believe more and more that this impeachment hearing wont change anything for Trump supporters or non supporters. The country is solidly polarized and the people have already made their choice. I'm amazed at the hard line roll the media has chose. If you watch CNN you get one scenario and if you watch FOX you get a completely different scenario. It's incredible how far apart they are. It seems like there should only be one truth but I guess the truth is what ever you want it to be.

  25. #65
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    Re: Impeachment

    'truth' is usually the first casualty in any war.
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    Re: Impeachment

    There is another faction involved as well, Obama voters who jumped shipped because the Clinton candidacy was a bridge too far. Many voted Green just to avoid staying home and feeling powerless, but quite a few read the gameboard and decided Trump was a risk worth taking considering how few meaningful moves were available.

    Most of them had no real expectation of Trump, but 3 years of anti-Trump shenanigans may have solidified their discontent with what the Democrats have come to be. Doubling down on shenanigans now may blow up in their faces. People who never imagined themselves as GOP voters might well be pushed over the line by this.

    This is bad because though this is a narrow slice of all voters it may well be one of the few left in play with any degree of "independence."

  27. #67
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Of course, the same could have been said of the anti-Obama Republicans in Congress who did everything they could to obstruct. And then there are those who voted for Trump, but then have been turned off by his actions. Independents are likely a pretty small slice in the US, anymore, but they have to be feeling pretty thoroughly repelled from all sides. When both sides are largely scored on how well they obstruct the other side, there isn't much of a center left, since they'd be defined by not obstructing.

    This could likely be fixed by changing the way electoral maps are drawn, and possibly by changing primary rules. The former would work better, but would likely require a constitutional amendment. The latter is easier, but less effective.

    If legislative districting was required to follow a pretty simple set of rules, gridlock would likely end:

    1) All districts should have the same number of people plus or minus 0.1%.
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    Re: Impeachment

    When both sides are largely scored on how well they obstruct the other side
    Well said, but how sad for our country. Representing what's best for our country has dropped way down on their list of priorities.

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    Re: Impeachment

    but that's today's low politics.
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  30. #70
    ex-Administrator brad jones's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    I still find it somewhat mind-blowing that Trump tweeted about Ambassador Yovanovitch while she was testifying. Crazy is as crazy does.....

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    Re: Impeachment

    ^Yeah, that was the "fireworks" I was referring to. From the sound of things he (or his aids) has been doing the same thing to Vindman today using the Whitehouse Twitter account.

    I'm surprised how little of this we're seeing over here. I expected the amount of news to jump up once the proceeding went public but it's still tumble weeds over here. I guess we've got enough news of our own at the moment
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    ex-Administrator brad jones's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    What is the feelings or thoughts on all of this from outside of the US? (asking those that live outside the US).

  33. #73
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    Re: Impeachment

    One thing that has come through from listening to the testimony is that the Republicans and Democrats have two different narratives. They are approaching the testimony from two different realities with two different sets of facts that they accept to be true.

    Without getting into which is more reasonable than the other, this is the bottom line issue in our world today: Truth is a matter of opinion. If you choose to believe that the world is flat, not only can you find LOADS of people who will support your view, but most people have no means to prove otherwise. If your view is consistent with only 0.1% of the US population, then you will have about 400,000 like minded people in the world. Until the last few decades, a view as rare as that would be hard pressed to encounter any of the hundreds of thousands of like minded folks. These days, it's as easy as getting ANY other source of information.

    So, what does a person do? If you decide that you can't do the work to figure out something, then you can choose some group of experts to believe in. Of course, if you choose poorly, or if you believe the group of experts are deliberately misleading you, then choosing a group of experts does nothing at all for you.

    For that reason, I believe that the result will be impeachment without removal, and that that's all that anybody is trying to achieve as far as impeachment goes.
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  34. #74
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    Re: Impeachment

    George Orwell's 1984 depicts 'The Ministry Of Truth' (which enforces whatever the government decides is true that day) and the themes of using media manipulation and advanced technology to control people. Any parallels..........
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  35. #75

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    Re: Impeachment

    What is the feelings or thoughts on all of this from outside of the US?
    Trump was universally despised outside the US before this process even started so we're going into it with a very strong anti-Trump bias. Personally, I know I have that bias so I try to find some objective reporting rather than spending my time in echo chambers but it's pretty difficult. Our TV media is pretty unbiased (our print media is massively bias but tends to wear it's bias on its sleeve) but they haven't been giving the proceedings much play. That said, the Sondland testimony dropped about 1/2 hour after I made that last post and that seems to have been a bit of a bombshell so it's getting coverage.

    Personally, I think he's absolutely guilty of coercing a foreign government using the threat of withholding US tax dollars for personal political gain. However, I don't think he viewed it in those terms and didn't see it as doing anything wrong. To him it was just business. He was getting things done and I don't think he bothered to think about it in any other way. And unfortunately he's surrounded himself with so many yes-men that nobody was going to question it and show him what it meant in the worst light. Still, creating and living in our own echo chambers seems to be the way of things these days so Trump's no worse than the rest of us in that regard.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    George Orwell's 1984 depicts 'The Ministry Of Truth' (which enforces whatever the government decides is true that day) and the themes of using media manipulation and advanced technology to control people. Any parallels..........
    Orwell got some things right, but mostly missed the boat. He thought it would be the government that was primarily manipulating the media. We now know that it doesn't take the government. Sure, the government CAN do it, but it doesn't take them, and is probably done more effectively by a smaller group.
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  37. #77
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    Re: Impeachment

    Trump was universally despised outside the US before this process even started so we're going into it with a very strong anti-Trump bias
    I've thought that for a long time but I also thought that maybe it was just my dislike for him that made me think that that way. To me it's actually embarrassing to watch him trying to act Presidential around dignitaries. He talks like an infomercial host.

    I believe that the result will be impeachment without removal, and that that's all that anybody is trying to achieve as far as impeachment goes.
    I agree but I also think it is still worth doing. I hate to think what Trump would do if Congress wasn't willing to call him out on illegal/inappropriate acts.

  38. #78
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    Re: Impeachment

    The fact that voices on their left can hardly stop laughing at the neoliberal incompetence is telling though:




    I think what will do them in for 2020 will be historic low voter turnout. Their clown car primary campaign season hasn't helped a bit.

  39. #79
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    Re: Impeachment

    So up to now i have been fairly sure that the Impeachment proceeding were going nowhere... until Sondland's testimony yesterday.

    Did it come across in the US the same as it came across here? because what i saw yesterday looked really bad for Trump from where i was sitting.

    All his and the Republican parties defense of his actions got picked apart piece by piece.

    What would have to happen for the Republicans to actually follow through with the Impeachment though would it need Giuliani to flip?
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  40. #80
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    Re: Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The fact that voices on their left can hardly stop laughing at the neoliberal incompetence is telling though:




    I think what will do them in for 2020 will be historic low voter turnout. Their clown car primary campaign season hasn't helped a bit.
    Your point aside, I really hope you don't take most of your views from comedians, and especially not Jimmy Dore. I mentioned him to a friend who is up to date on that stuff and oh boy is that guy a nutjob: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore

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