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Thread: We are going to get the wall now...

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    We are going to get the wall now...

    I guess now Mexico really is going to pay for the wall now. We already are making billions of dollars from the China tariffs according to Trump:

    “Billions of Dollars are being paid to the United States by China in the form of Trade Tariffs!”
    — President Trump, in a tweet, Feb. 16, 2019

    “The tariffs are bringing a tremendous amount of money to our Treasury.”
    — Trump, in remarks to the Cabinet, Feb. 12

    “Those tariffs are costing them a lot of money, and they’re going into our Treasury; remember that, we’re filling up with billions of dollars.”
    — Trump, at a campaign rally in El Paso, Feb. 11
    Now that we are going to start making billions of dollars from the Mexico tariffs, we really can make Mexico pay for it.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...mmigrants-stop

    I doubted Trump’s genius in the beginning but now that billions upon billions of dollars are being collected from China and soon from Mexico I don’t any more.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    well Germany got rid of the Wall, some say ...I would rather add another 2 meters in height..
    and then there are other that say... thank God it's gone no matter how much Money it's going to cost 'West Germany"

    I'm not sure if one can compare this with the Wall that (perhaps) will be built in the US-Mexico Border
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Since I've received several e-mails from various vendors, like high-end Ethernet switch vendors etc... informing that the price of their equipment is going up because of the tariffs with China, the tariffs largely make China the middle man in the transaction, and we're all paying for in any case. It isn't free money.

    If you give someone a lot of money and they give some of it back to you, you're not actually making money.
    Its a relatively hidden tax on all of us.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Well, that was Tyson's point: WE pay the tariffs, not the Chinese. It isn't clear whether Trump understands that and is prevaricating, or whether he really doesn't understand how tariffs work.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    WES4DBT For President in 2020!!!!! Sounds like I can count on your VOTE.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...


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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...


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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Well, that was Tyson's point: WE pay the tariffs, not the Chinese. It isn't clear whether Trump understands that and is prevaricating, or whether he really doesn't understand how tariffs work.
    Yep...I would like someone to ask Trump, and him to answer: Mr. President, you continue to state the Chinese tariff are bringing in billions of dollars despite the majority of world economists, including your own, say that is just not true. Are you now maintaining we are bringing in billions more from Mexico if the tariff go into place?

    Gee...why not put tariffs on the whole world, collect those trillions of dollars and hand it out, and we can all just quit working.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I just love the irony when you post something like this when I could just go out and lists dozens of examples of how the Trump administration is so much more egregious about the same things you post. Ivanka and Jarrod are all over the world ensuring when daddy leaves office they have networked via the US government and their nepotistic positions to profit for years after that stain has left office.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 3rd, 2019 at 12:14 PM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I can sum the first video up as:-
    "I used to run a business before China joined the WTO and had to pay export (nb, not import) tariffs"
    "China joined the WTO which meant that Export and Import Tariffs were removed"
    "Now companies can export from China to the US without paying Export Duties - I didn't use to be able to do that - China must be cheating"
    "As a solution, we're going to apply Import Duties in the US. That'll show them <whisper>even though it'll be US companies paying them</whisper>."


    The reality of this is that China simply has a much larger and cheaper labour force than the US and expects much lower living standards. For that reason Chinese goods WILL be cheaper, no matter how you tinker with Tariffs. You can add a tariff here and a tariff there but you're just moving the deck chairs. It doesn't change the fundamental underlying reality.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:28 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Yeah, that first video was a guy that didn't do his homework before buying 1,000 T-Shirts. Nothing to do with tariffs. Ultimately tariffs mean higher prices for Chinese imports. If it cost them more, then they must charge more. Now I'm not saying all tariffs are bad, if they help level the playing field so American made products can compete, then that can be a good thing. But in some areas the price gap is just to big. Between cheap labor and government subsidies, the US can't compete.

    The one area I would like to see the government step in is to protect our "Intellectual Properties". US companies in China have been asked to give up that knowledge if they want to continue doing business. With profits so high, a lot of the companies are complying.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Still barreling towards Monday.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Jun 10th, 2019 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Removed a bit.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    We dodged a bullet but the president isn't done yet...he tweeted this just this morning:

    “We have fully signed and documented another very important part of the Immigration and Security deal with Mexico, one that the U.S. has been asking about getting for many years. It will be revealed in the not too distant future and will need a vote by Mexico’s legislative body,” Trump tweeted.

    “We do not anticipate a problem with the vote but, if for any reason the approval is not forthcoming, tariffs will be reinstated.”
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Jun 10th, 2019 at 09:07 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I'm not thrilled with the president's actions, either, but keep it civil. Politics are a touchy subject for a programming forum.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I'm not thrilled with the president's actions, either, but keep it civil. Politics are a touchy subject for a programming forum.
    Will do...
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    It seems that Trump’s only skill as president is to “increasing tariffs” throughout the world. If "increasing tariffs" can make the United States great again, why hadn't other US presidents discovered this secret weapon before?

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    It seems that Trump’s only skill as president is to “increasing tariffs” throughout the world. If "increasing tariffs" can make the United States great again, why hadn't other US presidents discovered this secret weapon before?
    This is the first time we have a "stable genius" for president.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    This is the first time we have a "stable genius" for president.
    Trump is either the most stupid president or the smartest president. If it is the latter, perhaps the presidents of all countries should be selected from businessmen in the future.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I said I'd be civil so I will be:

    the most stupid president or the smartest president
    That is too binary a choice. He is though, in my opinion, most certainly unfit to be president. The only reason the republicans have abrogated their constitutional duties concerning not removing him is they do not want "primaried". Had he been a democrat they would never tolerated his "policies". I have met a lot of liars in my life and he takes the cake by far. And I don't think I'm being insulting towards him...I can provide proof of over 10,000 documented lies/falsehoods he has told since being in office.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 17th, 2019 at 01:53 PM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Maybe we can make a vote (survey) here to see how many people think that Trump's trade war will win.

    A. America wins
    (The U.S. has achieved "Great Again", China is far behind, no longer a competitor to US )

    B. No winner
    (both sides have suffered huge losses, the U.S. has not achieve "great again,", and the Chinese economy has slowed down)

    C. China wins
    (The Chinese economy and the country's development have hardly been affected, and continue to be the leader of world economic growth)

    D. China has been hit hard
    (The economic collapse is like Japan decades ago)

    Note:
    Just to joke and relax, please don't bring political opposition to this great technical forum, thanks.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jun 17th, 2019 at 07:29 AM.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Just to joke and relax, please don't bring political opposition to this great technical forum, thanks.
    I think in Chit Chat political discussions are just fine. If you don't like them don't join in. I believe the only caveat to political posts moderators enforce is to be civil.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I believe the only caveat to political posts moderators enforce is to be civil.
    That pretty much covers it. Certainly remain civil to each other and, to a lesser extent, to the public figures in question as well. By choosing a public life, Trump, Obama et al, do expose themselves to some degree of pillory, but the bar doesn't drop away entirely.

    @dreamanor, IMO it's option B. Nobody's winning. Worse, a bunch of us that aren't in the equation get hit too. America sneezes...

    Still, tariffs and protectionist trade policies aren't entirely crazy. They can offer limited protection to targeted parts of your economy. The problem is that, particularly in the case of import tariffs, they do so at the expense of other parts. It's not the Chinese that pay import tariffs, it's the US company that's doing the importing.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 17th, 2019 at 09:17 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    You left out E, which would be America loses. Frankly, I think that's the most likely long-term outcome of this. China is not a small economy. What we have shown them beyond any doubt, is that we can hold their economy hostage as long as they are dependent on us. They knew that, they just didn't know that anybody would actually do it. Now they know better. The ultimate answer for most companies is to have some fallbacks in their supply chain such that there can be some resilience. The Economist just ran an article about how the Japanese earthquake of several years back, showed that Japan was the sole supplier of certain materials used in high tech products. Taiwan is also a sole source supplier of a few things, and is equally earthquake prone. Once you realize your supply chain has such vulnerabilities, you manage for them (or just pray that nothing happens). China has found that the US can be a choke point, and is willing to do the choking. It will take them some time, but they are already starting to try to develop alternatives, and for an economy of that size and capability, they are likely to succeed. If they do, then the US will have managed to do nothing more than achieve a long delayed own goal.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Trump is either the most stupid president or the smartest president. If it is the latter, perhaps the presidents of all countries should be selected from businessmen in the future.
    Well one way to look at it is the country needs to be run as a business as we have budgets, expenses, donations, employees etc. I think it makes good sense to have a president with some business skills/sense as all the others before have ruined us fiscally. Im tired of seeing billions of dollars going to other countries for political reasons when we have trillions in debts to pay. We cant help others until we help ourselves first.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I'm tired of seeing billions of dollars going to other countries for political reasons when we have trillions in debts to pay
    If you take out "other countries" and substitute "major American corporations" you would be closer to the truth. In booming economic times countries should be paying down debt. The current administration gave it to the rich 1%. What us peons got, which are temporary and legislated to end, has already been lost in the higher prices from tariffs to date.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    Well one way to look at it is the country needs to be run as a business as we have budgets, expenses, donations, employees etc. I think it makes good sense to have a president with some business skills/sense as all the others before have ruined us fiscally. Im tired of seeing billions of dollars going to other countries for political reasons when we have trillions in debts to pay. We cant help others until we help ourselves first.
    Maybe you should think about a few questions:

    (1) Doing business with others is just helping others? (IMO, doing business should be mutually beneficial and win-win)

    (2) Have the former presidents of the U.S. ruined the U.S.? Or is it just that the Democratic presidents have ruined the U.S.?

    (3) Can "higher tariffs" prevent billions of dollars from flowing to other countries? If so, why did the other presidents not find this secret weapon?

    (4) If the only skill of the president is to raise tariffs, is every American who can use Twitter able to do the work of the president?

    (5) Why does the U.S. have trillions of dollars in debt? Is it caused by China or other countries?

    IMO, there are many types of businessmen, such as: long-sighted businessmen and short-sighted businessmen. Trump is obviously a short-sighted businessman. That's why Trump can only earn billions of dollars (and went bankrupt several times), while Bill Gates can earn hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Handing over the world's most powerful country to a short-sighted businessman, the end result is to accelerate the country's recession, not "great again"

    Note:
    Trump has gone bankrupt several times. Will he make the US bankrupt? If this is the case, it will be a huge disaster for the whole world, not just for the Americans.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jun 17th, 2019 at 07:38 PM.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    We need to extend it to the East Coast...

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    Well one way to look at it is the country needs to be run as a business as we have budgets, expenses, donations, employees etc. I think it makes good sense to have a president with some business skills/sense as all the others before have ruined us fiscally. Im tired of seeing billions of dollars going to other countries for political reasons when we have trillions in debts to pay. We cant help others until we help ourselves first.
    Government is not a business, and thinking of it as a business isn't sound. Most of what is done by the government has no clear ROI in economic terms, nor do we want it to. Government also doesn't follow the business cycle. In a downturn, it is generally accepted (or debated, depending on where you are) that spending should go up rather than down, so long as that spending is focused correctly. Even the dotcoms didn't live by that counter-cyclical rule, and no normal business would.

    So, it may be more accurate to think of the government as being the antithesis of a business. It does the things where the rules of business would not be in out best interest.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    We need to extend it to the East Coast...

    Feds seize more than 16 tons of cocaine at Philadelphia terminal

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/us/ph...ust/index.html
    This has always been the case. When Florida clamped down on drug imports, the amount of drugs moving into New England soared. We don't need a wall, we would need a dome, because the border is everywhere. Some parts are just easier to access than others. If we make some place harder, then traffic will shift to some place that is easier.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I think it makes good sense to have a president with some business skills/sense
    It probably wouldn't hurt to have those skills to augment governing skills. To bad we don't have one that does. Ours has the distinction of losing more money and stiffing the small businesses he used royally than most if not all business in the time frame below. My God he couldn't even make money running a casino.

    Decade in the Red: Trump Tax Figures Show Over $1 Billion in Business Losses

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 19th, 2019 at 09:27 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Note:
    Trump has gone bankrupt several times. Will he make the US bankrupt? If this is the case, it will be a huge disaster for the whole world, not just for the Americans.
    I'm a loyal Trump hater, have been for 30+ years but he has never went bankrupt. Several of his companies have but not him.

    As for the Wall or Dome, I find it all disheartening. Considering we're a country of immigrants. We're the most powerful country and have the largest economy in the world and the fact people want to go hide behind a wall is shameful. We should be stepping forward and leading the way, engaging in the huge problems that are facing the world. Not Denying climate change, pulling out summits and adopting this short sighted course.

    But like I've said before, you can't be mad at Trump, he is just being Trump, the same morally bankrupt bully he has always been. He was elected so the blame is on the American people.

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I was just making a point that to have business skills as part of what the country needs in addition to the political skills. Is that the republicans way of life? The democraps seem to believe that we can just simply spend and spend without any fiscal responsibility. In the end, one who can manage it all is what we need.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Right. The Republican line was always that the Democrats were "tax and spend."

    The Republicans have replaced that with "borrow and spend."

    Which one is worse?

    The Republicans gave up on fiscal responsibility back in the 90s. Back when there were Rudman Republicans in Congress, I liked their fiscal policies. Now they just pretend that their responsible and there isn't anything to like anymore.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    I was just making a point that to have business skills as part of what the country needs in addition to the political skills. Is that the republicans way of life? The democraps seem to believe that we can just simply spend and spend without any fiscal responsibility. In the end, one who can manage it all is what we need.
    I don't think you are keeping up with current events...Since President Donald Trump took office, the US has added over $2 trillion in new federal debt. Traditional republicans abrogated their sense of financial responsibility in favor of being on the Trump band wagon to be reelected years ago. When they go on and on about saving jobs, they mean their own.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 20th, 2019 at 06:03 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    the US has added over $2 trillion in new federal debt
    I'm curious (because I genuinely don't know), how much was put on under Obama? And George W before that? And so on? I keep hearing that much of the recent economic growth has come from borrowing but I'm keenly aware I'm getting that from left leaning sources (both media and informed friends) so I'm not sure how reliable it is.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm curious (because I genuinely don't know), how much was put on under Obama? And George W before that? And so on? I keep hearing that much of the recent economic growth has come from borrowing but I'm keenly aware I'm getting that from left leaning sources (both media and informed friends) so I'm not sure how reliable it is.
    I may be speaking "out of School" but Bush started with zero after Clinton. After borrowing for two wars and then throw in a monumental recession Obama took over. I think that his quantitative easing drove it up even more. Trump decided rather than paying down the debt he would give the revenue stream back to corporations.

    That is just how I see it and off the top of my head.

    The 2 trilion I mentioned is new under the Trump administration. See the link

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...clinton-2019-2
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 20th, 2019 at 11:00 AM.
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    The debt has pretty consistently risen for decades. There was a point under Clinton when we were running a surplus. Various people tried to take credit for it, but I personally think that it had nothing to do with anybody in Washington (except maybe Al Gore..heh!). More likely, it was due to the boom created by the internet and resulting dotcom madness.

    That all came apart, as it seemed inevitable it would, but at about the time, Bush decided to return the surplus in the form of tax breaks. Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of debate, and there's some merit on both sides. Personally, I would have preferred to drive down the debt for a time, but I'm more of a deficit hawk, by nature (paid off a 30 year mortgage in 13 years). The major problem with this move was two-fold: 1) The economy went into the tank when the dotcom bubble burst, and b) 9/11, which resulted in a pair of wars. Basically, there was no surplus to return by the time it was being returned.

    At least one of those wars is still going on (arguably, both of them are), while Obama was elected just after the economy totally tanked. That causes the deficit to explode. People can also argue about the costs and benefits of fiscal stimulus. I felt that some of it was pretty terribly mis-applied, but some of it was not. In any case, massive recessions seem like a reasonable time to run deficits.

    From there, though, the economy has been in the longest, sustained, expansion in US history. We haven't run a surplus, nor really come close, but the economy has been booming for almost 12 years, now. What I really disliked about the tax cuts, and which I don't really lay at Trump's feet, is the fact that the, supposedly fiscally responsible, Republicans decided to do a tax cut that was never even intended to be deficit neutral. Their stated goal was a tax cut that resulted in a net half trillion dollar deficit increase (not per year. I think they were projecting the standard 5 years).

    So, they didn't match tax cuts with spending cuts, as fiscally responsible Republicans have done in the past. They just opted to borrow from the next generation. It should be noted that how bad this is is also a matter for debate. I don't like it, but I don't like debt. It also may not impact me much at all cause of where I am in life (fiscally and age). Furthermore, I don't have kids, so the next generation that will be taking it in the shorts...they aren't mine.
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  38. #38

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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The debt has pretty consistently risen for decades. There was a point under Clinton when we were running a surplus. Various people tried to take credit for it, but I personally think that it had nothing to do with anybody in Washington (except maybe Al Gore..heh!). More likely, it was due to the boom created by the internet and resulting dotcom madness.

    That all came apart, as it seemed inevitable it would, but at about the time, Bush decided to return the surplus in the form of tax breaks. Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of debate, and there's some merit on both sides. Personally, I would have preferred to drive down the debt for a time, but I'm more of a deficit hawk, by nature (paid off a 30 year mortgage in 13 years). The major problem with this move was two-fold: 1) The economy went into the tank when the dotcom bubble burst, and b) 9/11, which resulted in a pair of wars. Basically, there was no surplus to return by the time it was being returned.

    At least one of those wars is still going on (arguably, both of them are), while Obama was elected just after the economy totally tanked. That causes the deficit to explode. People can also argue about the costs and benefits of fiscal stimulus. I felt that some of it was pretty terribly mis-applied, but some of it was not. In any case, massive recessions seem like a reasonable time to run deficits.

    From there, though, the economy has been in the longest, sustained, expansion in US history. We haven't run a surplus, nor really come close, but the economy has been booming for almost 12 years, now. What I really disliked about the tax cuts, and which I don't really lay at Trump's feet, is the fact that the, supposedly fiscally responsible, Republicans decided to do a tax cut that was never even intended to be deficit neutral. Their stated goal was a tax cut that resulted in a net half trillion dollar deficit increase (not per year. I think they were projecting the standard 5 years).

    So, they didn't match tax cuts with spending cuts, as fiscally responsible Republicans have done in the past. They just opted to borrow from the next generation. It should be noted that how bad this is is also a matter for debate. I don't like it, but I don't like debt. It also may not impact me much at all cause of where I am in life (fiscally and age). Furthermore, I don't have kids, so the next generation that will be taking it in the shorts...they aren't mine.
    Well put...I'm nearing sixty-five and thinking about social security. I think part of the republican tax cut strategy is that when it finally brings us to our knees budget wise they are going to go right after "entitlements". I believe that is part of their plan all along.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  39. #39
    Ex-Super Mod RobDog888's Avatar
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    Dont forget to throw in the "We should have everything for free because its a standard of living right!". Those will cost us dearly if they gain any ground.

    I hate debt too and basically just tired of seeing alll the spending without debt repayment to some degree.
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  40. #40
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: We are going to get the wall now...

    I'm actually of two minds about it. As I stated, I'm a deficit hawk. However, I've listened to the case that says that a certain amount of debt is essential, and that a certain amount of deficit spending is harmless. I'm not totally persuaded, but I'm not totally opposed, either. After all, I have a fair amount of treasury bonds (which are just doing WONDERFUL with these low and dropping interest rates), which IS the US debt. That's one of the problems that Japan has. They're a nation of rabid savers, so every bit of sovereign debt gets snapped up and doesn't help them one bit. Their debt to GDP ratio is insane, yet their interest rates are still abysmal because investors are not asking for a better rate. They just aren't worried, and it may be that they are right. Similarly, it may not matter how our debt is because we're such a sponge for soaking up money fleeing risky investments. Heck, I'm doing it myself, so, while I want to pay down the debt...I'm also holding that debt.

    On a somewhat related note. I personally feel that health care is going to destroy our society, and that destruction is inevitable. For that reason, I don't have a problem with increasing debt and increasing taxes to provide universal health care. The short version of that rant is this: As medical technology improves, our ability to cure or manage illness keeps on rising. There is no theoretical end to this. The cost doesn't go to zero, either. Things that would kill us twenty years ago are things that can be treated now....at a hefty cost. The cancer that killed my mother twelve years back may be curable as of last year. There would certainly be something that could be tried, but the cost might be up around a million dollars, at this time. So, she died quickly and cheaply, as there was no treatment. Twelve years later, there IS a treatment, it's expensive, but it might also be capable of a cure. That wouldn't mean she'd live forever, it would just mean that insurance had spent a million dollars, and she'd live to die of something else.

    So, as technology advances, medical costs HAVE to rise, even if cost per treatment was kept fixed, or even reduced. At some point, the cost is greater than we can afford, at which point society is going to have a devastatingly bad decision to make. This has nothing to do with price reforms, insurance reforms, tort reforms, or even retort reforms. It's just the ceaseless march of medical progress. There will come a time when we'll have to say, "you can live for X years...they you die....unless you're really rich, at which point you can do what you want." That's going to ruin us.

    If medical technology ever cures, or notably slows, aging, THE role of government will be providing health care. All the other roles will be subservient to that. Forget your highways, forget your military, forget trade regulations. They'll all be brought to serve the role of government, which will be to allow people to live a life currently unavailable to anybody.
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