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Thread: No Deal

  1. #441
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    And you've got the same effect coming from the other side. And I get the impression Farage is a lot more palatable to a Labour Leaver than Swinson is to a Remainer Tory.
    While i think the opposite, maybe we will get to find out who's right soon

    Even I, a staunch Lib Dem
    Ahem i though i would just point out that your parties position on Brexit is wildly different from yours
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  2. #442
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    Re: No Deal

    Ahem i though i would just point out that your parties position on Brexit is wildly different from yours
    Yeah, I know.

    But:-
    1. It would take more than a single issue (even one this important) to change my preference. I still believe in the broad range of positions they take on other issues and the core values of the party. If I was to switch where would I go? The closest alternative fit for my beliefs would be the Greens... which wouldn't resolve the disconnect.

    2. I'm not a leaver. I may not be a fan of the EU but I'm coming to that position from the exact opposite angle to most leavers: I don't want the EU to "butt out", I want it to "be better" and I don't see any indicators from it that it ever will be. I voted remain and I still think that leaving the EU was the wrong outcome from the referendum. I'm a remainer but I'm a remainer who thinks holding a vote and then failing to respect the result is likely to be far worse for this country than respecting that result. I never thought we'd ride unicorns into sunlit uplands but I do think we can still choose which donkey to ride into which swamp and the remain swamp's got bigger crocodiles in it.

    So it would be more accurate (and pedantic) to say that their position on Brexit is entirely in line with my own. They're position on respecting the electorate is where we differ.


    edit> It's also worth pointing out that I'm in a thread populated mostly by remainers and I'm defending a middle ground. That means the points of argument with which I disagree tend to be remainer points which, in turn, means I'm often making leave arguments in response. It probably gives a skewed impression of my position. Stick me in a room full of leavers and you'd probably find that the positions I expressed would be much closer to your own.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 26th, 2019 at 02:30 AM.
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  3. #443
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    Re: No Deal

    I think the Brexiteers should be renamed the quotient.

    England is the dividend, Boris is going to be totally divisive, Brexit is what you'll get, and the rest will be the remain...ders, which makes Brexiteers the quotient.
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  4. #444
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    Re: No Deal

    You have exceeded your Brexiteers of puns
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  5. #445
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    I'll take a three week time-out to restore my stock of puns.
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  6. #446
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    Re: No Deal

    Britain has to leave - just to make sure something actually happens with regard to Brexit. This uncertainty is economically and democratically wrong.

    I believe none of us really want to leave the EU with regard to alliance, trade and travel (even though I voted to leave). As an earlier post said I just want the EU to butt-out and for democratic decisions made here to have some force. At the moment a decision made in the UK has no force and as law making is transferred to Brussels democracy is reduced, step by step, that will continue.

    I want democracy and trade, that is not what the EU fundamentally wants as for it, progress for the EU means ever-closer union. They have to reduce the power of the nation states to show them who is boss. That is why they have to impose a deal on the UK that is undesirable for the UK and puts the UK in an subservient state, a colony of the EU.

    I lived in Brussels for three years and worked for EU organisations and the colossal waste of cash was so obvious. All the EU buildings clad in marble everywhere and cash for EU projects was available and being spent hand over fist.

    Border and financial control is essential for all nations that consider themselves a nation. We have financial control due to the pound but border control has been lost. Those could be easily resolved.

    With regard to democracy and the extent that has been eroded?

    When I want to gauge a typical Britishers knowledge and understanding of democracy in the EU (an understanding of the democratic process is required for people to engage with it) I ask them the following questions:

    1. What is the governing body of the EU?
    2. Where is it based?
    3. Where is the executive power and in whom is it invested?
    4. Who/what is the current president of the EU?
    5. Who is your EU MP?
    6. What body do you vote him to?
    7. What party does he represent?
    8. What policies does he want to implement?
    9. What are the policies of the other parties?
    10. Will you vote at the next EU general election?
    11. When is that?
    12. What effect will your vote have?

    I find that 95% of those asked cannot answer those questions, a normal response is less than 25% of the questions answered at all and almost all wrong. The engagement the average UK citizen/subject has with EU democratic institutions is practically nil and this is the most severe threat to British democracy we have ever known.

    An EU structure sets laws over the UK and our populace has no way of controlling nor has any interest in. The Brexit argument shows we have a thriving British democracy and I want it to stay that way.

    The way I see it whether you are pro or against Brexit itself the recent vote has to be implemented or British democracy basically disappears within the next 30 years or so, to stay in the EU and ignore that vote would be the final nail in British democracy. I personally would never vote again if we fail to observe the referendum decision. If it had gone the other way I would have accepted the outcome, depressed but meekly accepting.

    I think the Brexit vote is an enormously brave one, economically damaging but democratically a historic and courageous act that will save British democracy.

  7. #447
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Britain has to leave - just to make sure something actually happens with regard to Brexit. This uncertainty is economically and democratically wrong.
    Given that "no deal" wasn't an option when the referendum was taken, after all we were told that getting a deal would be the easiest thing ever, I would say crashing out on no deal is certainly not a democratic option.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I believe none of us really want to leave the EU with regard to alliance, trade and travel (even though I voted to leave). As an earlier post said I just want the EU to butt-out and for democratic decisions made here to have some force. At the moment a decision made in the UK has no force and as law making is transferred to Brussels democracy is reduced, step by step, that will continue.
    The UK has agreed with the vast majority of the EU rules and laws, pretty much the only ones we have argued against have been the ones that improved workers rights and tried to make tax avoidance harder. The vast majority of the rules and regulations people don't want aren't EU rules anyway - the media is just repeating the lies and mis-truths pushed by anti-EU people and nobody seems bothered to question them. A decision based on lies is not a democratic decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I want democracy and trade, that is not what the EU fundamentally wants as for it, progress for the EU means ever-closer union. They have to reduce the power of the nation states to show them who is boss. That is why they have to impose a deal on the UK that is undesirable for the UK and puts the UK in an subservient state, a colony of the EU.
    We still have sovereignty as part of the EU, we are not a subservient state and we were involved in all of the rules and regulations. The EU's withdrawal agreement is not about punishing the UK but about protecting the remaining 27 nations. We chose to leave, we set out our red lines, we promised the electorate we could get a brilliant deal and all our existing trade deals would roll over without any problems. The fact we pretty much set ourselves up with impossible and unobtainable goals is not the EU's fault.

    The Irish border was always going to be an issue as it will be the only land border between the UK and the EU, we cannot take control over our borders and not have a border.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I lived in Brussels for three years and worked for EU organisations and the colossal waste of cash was so obvious. All the EU buildings clad in marble everywhere and cash for EU projects was available and being spent hand over fist.
    Can't argue with that, however that seems to be the way with any bureaucracy of modern day government.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I find that 95% of those asked cannot answer those questions, a normal response is less than 25% of the questions answered at all and almost all wrong. The engagement the average UK citizen/subject has with EU democratic institutions is practically nil and this is the most severe threat to British democracy we have ever known.
    I would say this is exactly why we shouldn't have had a referendum, if people have no idea of what the EU is and isn't, what is does and doesn't do then how can they make a rational decision on whether we should leave or stay? We have politicians to make these kind of decisions for us, they shouldn't have what amounts to an opinion poll of the masses and use a very close result to drive such a fundamental legal, political, financial, and social change.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    An EU structure sets laws over the UK and our populace has no way of controlling nor has any interest in. The Brexit argument shows we have a thriving British democracy and I want it to stay that way.
    The UK helps to make those laws. We have MEPs that are part of the process. If people are not interested that is not the same as having no control.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    The way I see it whether you are pro or against Brexit itself the recent vote has to be implemented or British democracy basically disappears within the next 30 years or so, to stay in the EU and ignore that vote would be the final nail in British democracy. I personally would never vote again if we fail to observe the referendum decision. If it had gone the other way I would have accepted the outcome, depressed but meekly accepting.

    I think the Brexit vote is an enormously brave one, economically damaging but democratically a historic and courageous act that will save British democracy.
    The brexit referendum was self-serving and reckless, purely for the tory party's own needs. Turning the result of a non-legally binding referendum into law, failing to set a super-majority, failing to properly investigate the fraud, failing to combat the blatant lies, calling politicians traitors, threating to trash the country's economy if we can't get our own way, and letting around 90,000 tory members dictate the future of the entire country are not how you save democracy.

  8. #448
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    We still have sovereignty as part of the EU, we are not a subservient state
    No and yes because of the supremacy of the ECJ - which dictates to the UK.

    Turning the result of a non-legally binding referendum into law
    The Cameron government gave pledges that it would honour the result.

    failing to combat the blatant lies
    Lies were told by both sides - what about the 'lies' that remainers said about the collapse of the UK economy if we voted to leave, the increase in the un-employed or that an emergency budget would be needed etc etc None was true.

    The brexit referendum was self-serving and reckless, purely for the tory party's own needs.
    Possibly. Don't forget the history. UKIP were taking a lot of votes from the Tories so Cameron wanted a re-negotiated deal with the EU that would 'spike the UKIP guns' and reduce them to an irrelevant fringe party. But for this to happen, there would have to be some concessions given by the EU. They didn't give any that were meaningful. Hence when the referendum was called, there was more animosity towards the EU then before as the feeling was that they had treated Cameron badly. If the EU had given Cameron something meaningful that he could have presented as a victory, then the result, IMO, would have been different.

    The issue now is that there has been effectively a couple of wasted years. By now we should have had the trade agreement in place. If you look at what some of May's officials are now saying, they have admitted that they were too passive in their strategy with the EU in the negotiations. Quote 'One of the biggest mistakes we made was trying to avoid doing anything that would create a split. You could see that when they refused to shift on the backstop, and we just accepted it'. Basically, they 'messed up' the negotiations - and we are now where we are because of it.

    BJ now has 3 months to sort out the mess left by May. I hope it's enough time to get a good deal.
    Last edited by 2kaud; Jul 28th, 2019 at 11:51 AM.
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  9. #449
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    Re: No Deal

    I'm just going by what I've seen but wasn't this the question on the ballot?

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    I see nothing there promising or conditioning the action on any sort of "deal" whatsoever.

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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    We still have sovereignty as part of the EU, we are not a subservient state
    The EUs aim ultimately is to create a unitary EU state, therefore UK law will be subservient. UK will have a say in negotiations but that's it. We will not be able to go our own way on anything and our ability to influence anything over time will decrease.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    I would say this is exactly why we shouldn't have had a referendum, if people have no idea of what the EU is and isn't, what is does and doesn't do then how can they make a rational decision on whether we should leave or stay?.
    Ha! What a dangerous thing to say. Almost as if you are saying the electorate is too stupid to have a say in important decisions that affect them. No, of course that is exactly what you are saying. There has never been a voting qualification based upon knowledge and intelligence, perhaps there should be but that would be a very hard law to pass if you are actually proposing that the franchise should be based upon intellect. The vast proportion may well lose the vote if the government followed that line of thought to its logical conclusion... Let us hope they don't. You don't sound like a true democrat if you can dismiss the majority in that manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    The brexit referendum was self-serving and reckless, purely for the tory party's own needs.
    Britain was a member of a trade bloc that changed itself into a union and intends to become a federal country the size and power of the US. The British people needed a vote on this change, whether you needed it is neither here nor there. I voted, we all voted. That is a system we all accept, and we all understand what a referendum means, the only difference being you do not like the outcome. To blame the referendum itself when the result is not the one you wanted, rank hypocrisy. If the outcome had been the other way we'd have had to suck it up for ever, no chance to complain ever again.

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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    No and yes because of the supremacy of the ECJ - which dictates to the UK.
    .
    .
    .
    BJ now has 3 months to sort out the mess left by May. I hope it's enough time to get a good deal.

    ^^^^^^^
    Whatever this 2KAUD chap says, not extreme, not divisive, intelligent and well-observed - I agree.

    Frankly, if the EU had been more forthcoming, we would still be in the EU, we would have more control over our borders and this would not be happening.

    Earlier it was merely about immigration control, and basically a sovereign country wanting to regain border control.

    Due to the EU's failure to bend a little it is now about a lot more, trade, borders and law and security, standards and every other subject under the sun where one country interacts with another. It need not have been so.

    Personally, I am glad the vote was the way it was as my focus has always been upon the lack of democracy in the EU. The first time we express our democratic right during one of the highest referendum turn-outs ever, some people have the gall to call foul when the decision does not go their way. So very wrong.

  12. #452
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm just going by what I've seen but wasn't this the question on the ballot?

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    I see nothing there promising or conditioning the action on any sort of "deal" whatsoever.
    Correct. The question wasn't 'Leave the European Union with a Deal'. Whether we leave with a deal (obviously preferable if the deal is good for both sides) or without a deal, either way fulfils the result of the referendum that Cameron pledged the government to honour - and which incidentally, Labour also pledged to honour in its last manifesto.
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  13. #453
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Britain was a member of a trade bloc
    The 1957 Treaty of Rome that established the EEC (forerunner of the EU) - and to which the UK joined in 1973 - requires in its opening preamble for their to be 'ever closer union'. Subsequently, this has become one of the main driving forces within, the now EU, bureaucracy. This part of all of the treaties since then has been conveniently overlooked by subsequent governments. If the UK now doesn't leave the EU for whatever reason, then the UK will have to accept its fate in the EU's relentless drive towards 'ever closer union'. Note that in strict terms, this is a never-ending project as no matter how close the union becomes, there will always be a way to make it closer. It's like in mathematics, you can strive to approach infinity, but you'll never get there.
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  14. #454
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    failing to combat the blatant lies
    PS to post #448. What about the lies told in the 1973 referendum by those wanting the UK to join the then EEC? Heath admitted later that he knew lies were told in order to try to get the result he wanted - and got. Those against joining never complained then and didn't try to stop it - they just accepted the result. The same should go for now.
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    The 1957 Treaty of Rome that established the EEC (forerunner of the EU) - and to which the UK joined in 1973 - requires in its opening preamble for their to be 'ever closer union'.
    Yes a fact. An intention that in words, seems so innocuous but has, at its heart so much, which could also easily be discounted in 1957 and again in 1973 before the results of that ever-closer union had been realised.

    One of the elements of the ever-closer union - The EU's short/medium term aim was the establishment of an EU border force that controls all the EU's borders including that of the UK, meaning that all UK sea ports, towns and cities would be under the control of an EU organisation that could impose its will, an EU police force operating on UK territory with no allegiance whatsoever to the UK. That single establishment would mean a de-facto complete loss of sovereignty.

    In 1973 when the majority voted to be part of the EEC which all voters knew as a mere market - we voted for membership of a Common Market according to government supplied propaganda that turned out to be patently false. The more recent referendum could have confirmed that membership but it did not despite the same amount of government propaganda in favour of remaining.

    Referendums are dangerous things, they take you in a direction you may not want to go.

  16. #456
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    That is a system we all accept, and we all understand what a referendum means, the only difference being you do not like the outcome. To blame the referendum itself when the result is not the one you wanted, rank hypocrisy. If the outcome had been the other way we'd have had to suck it up for ever, no chance to complain ever again.
    I understand an advisory referendum to be one that is used to gauge public opinion and isn't legally binding. I blame the way the referendum was run, the lack of any super majority, and the way the result was then treated as legally binding. If the referendum had been declared as legally binding then the result would have been declared invalid because fraud committed, overspending etc. To deliberately make the referendum advisory to avoid having to follow the legal obligations on ensuring it was properly rub, but then enshrining the result of what is effectively an opinion poll into law does not strike me as being democratic.

    Either run a legally binding referendum or don't - but honour the rules of whichever one you choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Ha! What a dangerous thing to say. Almost as if you are saying the electorate is too stupid to have a say in important decisions that affect them. No, of course that is exactly what you are saying. There has never been a voting qualification based upon knowledge and intelligence, perhaps there should be but that would be a very hard law to pass if you are actually proposing that the franchise should be based upon intellect. The vast proportion may well lose the vote if the government followed that line of thought to its logical conclusion... Let us hope they don't. You don't sound like a true democrat if you can dismiss the majority in that manner.
    Given the legal implications, economic implications, social implications, consequences of WTO tariffs, non-tariff barriers, the good friday agreement, disruption to our world standing, the consequences to all our trade agreements, the impact on the pound, our membership of Euratom, medical supplies, access to the European Space program etc. If you are telling me every person who took part in the referendum understood the implications of all of these then fair enough - I stand corrected and given the public a casting vote was fine. On the other hand if people are going to be loosing their jobs, suffering financial insecurity, loosing free medical treatment in europe, possibly suffering disruption to medical supplied on the strength of what was "promised" because they didn't understand the consequences then perhaps the referendum was a bad idea.

    Btw, there is a big difference between what we have being a Parliamentary Democracy (a democracy in which we elect people to make decisions on our behalf - kind of what I said) and a Direct Democracy (in which people get to vote on issues directly). We have our say by voting for the parties we believe will enact the laws etc that we will find beneficial. That is our form of democracy, throwing a difficult question to the public as a way to undercut UKIP is not a good basis for democracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    The EUs aim ultimately is to create a unitary EU state, therefore UK law will be subservient. UK will have a say in negotiations but that's it. We will not be able to go our own way on anything and our ability to influence anything over time will decrease.
    I would say having influence over a union the size of the EU compared to being an independent nation state would give us more influence in the world, not less.

  17. #457
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    ^^^^^^^
    Whatever this 2KAUD chap says, not extreme, not divisive, intelligent and well-observed - I agree.

    Frankly, if the EU had been more forthcoming, we would still be in the EU, we would have more control over our borders and this would not be happening.

    Earlier it was merely about immigration control, and basically a sovereign country wanting to regain border control.

    Due to the EU's failure to bend a little it is now about a lot more, trade, borders and law and security, standards and every other subject under the sun where one country interacts with another. It need not have been so.

    Personally, I am glad the vote was the way it was as my focus has always been upon the lack of democracy in the EU. The first time we express our democratic right during one of the highest referendum turn-outs ever, some people have the gall to call foul when the decision does not go their way. So very wrong.
    We had control over our borders, we chose not to do anything about it. Just the same as we could have changed our passport colour, kippers from the Isle of Man aren't subject to odd EU rules on "ice pillows", bananas didn't have to be straight etc. etc. Rules such as making it hard to avoid tax, rules that could impact a lot of people in the government, on the other hand are true and yet I didn't see many of those being held up to ridicule.

  18. #458
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm just going by what I've seen but wasn't this the question on the ballot?

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    I see nothing there promising or conditioning the action on any sort of "deal" whatsoever.
    That was indeed the question as it appeared on the ballot paper. My two issues are how it turned a massively complex and nuanced situation into an overly simplistic in / out question without ever describing what "out" actually meant. My second issue is that most of the pro-leave people at the time were pushing "out" as being an easy deal, no downsides, "they need us more than we need them", all trade deals we have will just roll over, we will keep foreigners out etc. Turns out we aren't finding it easy to roll over our trade deals. Turns out companies are leaving the UK. Turns out the EU will protect itself rather than give in to us.

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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    I understand an advisory referendum to be one that is used to gauge public opinion and isn't legally binding.
    You can understand what you want. It is a referendum, the legally binding aspect is just mere chatter for some that do not like the outcome. The gov.t asks the people to respond on an important issue, the people speak, ignore them at your peril. What more do I need to say?


    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    Given the legal implications, economic implications... they didn't understand the consequences then perhaps the referendum was a bad idea.
    Once again you are saying that the British people aren't intelligent enough to vote on such a subject but strangely enough they have been voting governments in and out for the last hundred and fifty or so years during far more tumultuous times. You may not have noticed but it is called democracy. They have been doing that for better or for worse without applying your intelligence franchise rule that probably would have changed the political landscape forever. We would probably have had consistently tory governments for all that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    Btw, there is a big difference between what we have being a Parliamentary Democracy (a democracy in which we elect people to make decisions on our behalf - kind of what I said) and a Direct Democracy (in which people get to vote on issues directly). We have our say by voting for the parties we believe will enact the laws etc that we will find beneficial. That is our form of democracy, throwing a difficult question to the public as a way to undercut UKIP is not a good basis for democracy.
    "BTW" - as if it is a mere fact that I am not aware of... Do you think I am an imbecile? I know what referenda are and so do you. Your synopsis re: the UKIP is slightly skewed. The referendum needed to be done, a change to the UK's existence is something to fight for, let alone merely asking the question...

    In any case it was a promise made years before and the result proves that the question HAD to be asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    I would say having influence over a union the size of the EU compared to being an independent nation state would give us more influence in the world, not less.
    Whether it gives us more influence or not is debatable. I'd say Britain's influence on the EU is minor and I see it eroding. There may be certainly be a difference short and long term but we shall see about that. It isn't for you nor me to say and history will certainly prove it one way or the other.

    You seem to forget Britain is going nowhere geographically, we 'remain' in the only true sense, 12 miles from the continent. A gateway to Europe probably more so than ever. The EU is bloated and going nowhere fast, Europe without Britain is not Europe, the EU is not Europe. Britain is in Europe it is just not in the political EU.

    Honestly I find this debate incredible. The vote was clear. Carry it out. If they can get a deal, good. Notwithstanding, we still go. The rest of it is all flimflam and bluster.

  20. #460
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Britain has to leave - just to make sure something actually happens with regard to Brexit. This uncertainty is economically and democratically wrong.

    I believe none of us really want to leave the EU with regard to alliance, trade and travel (even though I voted to leave). As an earlier post said I just want the EU to butt-out and for democratic decisions made here to have some force. At the moment a decision made in the UK has no force and as law making is transferred to Brussels democracy is reduced, step by step, that will continue.

    I want democracy and trade, that is not what the EU fundamentally wants as for it, progress for the EU means ever-closer union. They have to reduce the power of the nation states to show them who is boss. That is why they have to impose a deal on the UK that is undesirable for the UK and puts the UK in an subservient state, a colony of the EU.

    I lived in Brussels for three years and worked for EU organisations and the colossal waste of cash was so obvious. All the EU buildings clad in marble everywhere and cash for EU projects was available and being spent hand over fist.

    Border and financial control is essential for all nations that consider themselves a nation. We have financial control due to the pound but border control has been lost. Those could be easily resolved.

    With regard to democracy and the extent that has been eroded?
    I hear this argument a lot that somehow the EU is an entity to itself that makes decision for us and does not consult us and then imposes those decisions upon us, and its just plain wrong.

    The EU is us and we are the EU, more clearly yes the EU is made up of 28 countries (currently) but the main 3 countries driving policy have been the UK, Germany & France its our politicians our mandarins, our diplomats that have time and again been at the center of EU decision making.

    As for the idea that the EU will subsume our democracy and it will disappear do people not think we have a choice in this as part of the EU do you think that Germany or France or Italy or any of the other 27 states has no democracy? or will allow the EU just to take all there democratic power away?

    People misunderstand the ideal of ever greater union as a means to make 1 homogeneous EU state that controls everything and has power over everything but that is not the goal. Whether you agree with it or not the EU is trying to counter larger political and trading powers such as the US and China, Nation States will never disappear they are inherently part of the project.

    Yes the EU will and does try and centralise certain powers but it does those generally to the benefit of its nation states. This is after all a project created by EU nations for EU nations not one enforced upon us by some outside power.


    The idea that decisions made in the UK have no force is just plain wrong, the vast majority of decisions we make concerning our own future from Education, Health, Police, Tax policy, energy etc we make in our own parliament and we manage to cock-up all by ourselves.


    Yes some laws are now decided at an EU level but the large majority of those laws are to do with trade, citizens rights and consumer regulations all things designed to protect all EU citizens to the same level or provide equal benefits to EU citizens. I do agree that we need to guard against EU law creeping overly into domestic policy but while we are a member we do have a say in that and have always had a say in that.

    Aside from trade, consumer regulations and citizens rights i would ask can you name one time that EU overrides UK law in any meaningful way?


    As for border control yes when we signed up to the EU we agreed to the 1 of the 4 principles free movement of people and specifically EU citizens, and while yes the addition of a number former poorer Eastern European countries into the EU has mean that we have had migration from those countries higher than previously we as part of the EU choose to do this in order to reduce Russia's power and influence over that region by bringing those countries in the EU. That was a political decision that has had some monetary and migration consequences.

    The big issue on migration in recent years not been EU citizens migration but migration from the middle east which if we are being honest is in no small part down to our own involvement in the many wars in that region which has created huge numbers of asylum seekers.

    As many experts have said even with full control over our borders net migration is likely to remain just the same as it is now because we are reliant on migration in order to grow the economy.

    The EU is in some ways undemocratic and has its problems i recognise that, and agree that it wastes money and at times it does not always serve us in the best way, but for me and for many people the problems are far outweighed by the things we gain from it and being part of it does allow you as a country to guide its policy which we have done for many years. Some might even argue the EU problems are in many ways a mirror of our own national democratic problems.

    The way I see it whether you are pro or against Brexit itself the recent vote has to be implemented or British democracy basically disappears within the next 30 years or so, to stay in the EU and ignore that vote would be the final nail in British democracy.
    This is just your personal opinion and does not represent reality, democracy does not disappear just because we do or dont enact something. You maybe angry that a decision you thought settled was in fact not and has been fought over again but that is the reality of democracy when you have decisions that effect everybody and you have such a close split right through the population of people that want something to happen and those that dont.

    Whether we enact Brexit or not will be something we as a nation decide no-one else and as such it will be our democratic will. The idea that it will kill democracy if the decision doesn't turn out as you like is just nonsense just the same as if it doesn't turn out the way i want.

    I think the Brexit vote is an enormously brave one, economically damaging but democratically a historic and courageous act that will save British democracy.
    And i think that it is economic self harm on such as scale we have never seen before and is small minded, taking us away from our European Neighbours and greater cooperation between us when many of the really big problems facing us in the work today will require us to work ever closer together to solve.
    Last edited by NeedSomeAnswers; Jul 29th, 2019 at 03:58 AM. Reason: spelling
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  21. #461
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    Re: No Deal

    Honestly I find this debate incredible. The vote was clear. Carry it out. If they can get a deal, good. Notwithstanding, we still go. The rest of it is all flimflam and bluster.
    Again thats just your opinion, we have spent 3 years trying to leave, we now have a new PM who says we will leave in 3 months, i doubt that he can follow through with his promise but time will tell.

    All that matters now is what Boris can get through parliament, can he get a No Deal through parliament or not and my guess is not but we will see soon enough.

    If he can get No Deal through then everything else is mute and it goes ahead, if not then we go to a General Election where almost anything is possible and democratically we go back to the people and they get to decided if enough people want to go ahead with No Deal or not.
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    This is just your personal opinion and does not represent reality,
    Yes, that statement was a personal opinion but ALL of what you said was also 'just' personal opinion. Do not discount the observations of others just because you have a personal and biased preference for the EU.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    I hear this argument a lot that somehow the EU is an entity to itself that makes decision for us and does not consult us and then imposes those decisions upon us, and its just plain wrong.
    This is 'just' an opinion and NOT a fact. Many laws are determined by the EU and have an over-arching effect on the UK, have you done any education in law? Do you not understand the disparity between common and statute law? Do you understand the absence of common law in the EU?

    Perhaps the reason you hear this argument a lot is because it is true?


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    The EU is us and we are the EU
    Flimflam and blather, sounds like propaganda to me, you are God and God is you. We are all one. You keep on swallowing that.



    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    As for the idea that the EU will subsume our democracy and it will disappear do people not think we have a choice in this as part of the EU do you think that Germany or France or Italy or any of the other 27 states has no democracy?
    They have a local democracy that is increasingly powerless as time has passed... Some of those countries have always had less investment in their local democracy - look at Italy/ Belgium. The problem nevertheless is the same, "ever closer union" - their words requires centralisation. The point is local democracy becomes increasingly irrelevant and the new EU democracy is non-existent. The structures are there but practically it does not exist without the engagement of the populace. Just paid roles for a few faces.

    That above is FACT.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    People misunderstand the ideal of ever greater union as a means to make 1 homogeneous EU state that controls everything and has power over everything but that is not the goal.
    The goal of the EU IS to be one homogeneous state, do some research into the founding fathers of the EU, and look at the statement in the EU's charter. Even your facts are just opinions. "People misunderstand", what bollox... It is clear in the wording and in its actions. Who are you to say what is going to happen? The whole point of democracy is to prevent the takeover by one power be it a bureaucracy, single politician, country or whatever.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Yes the EU will and does try and centralise certain powers but it does those generally to the benefit of its nation states. This is after all a project created by EU nations for EU nations not one enforced upon us by some outside power.
    You really are Mr. Gullible. Try thinking outside the box and stop following like a sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Aside from trade, consumer regulations and citizens rights
    What else have the Romans done for us?


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    As for border control yes when we signed up to the EU we agreed to the 1 of the 4 principles free movement of people and specifically EU citizens, and while yes the addition of a number former poorer Eastern European countries into the EU has mean that we have had migration from those countries higher than previously we as part of the EU choose to do this in order to reduce Russia's power and influence over that region by bringing those countries in the EU. That was a political decision that has had some monetary and migration consequences.
    Agreed, however we need border control to restore sovereignty. Another country currently has control of our borders and wants more control - see the proposed EU border force and my comments above. That is not right.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    The EU is in some ways undemocratic and has its problems i recognise that, and agree that it wastes money and at times it does not always serve us in the best way, but for me and for many people the problems are far outweighed by the things we gain from it and being part of it does allow you as a country to guide its policy which we have done for many years. Some might even argue the EU problems are in many ways a mirror of our own national democratic problems.
    Good, you recognise the lack of democracy but you fail to see the danger in that and the threat it holds. The only thing worth defending in the EU is democracy. It is under assault from all sides, corporatism, commercial and political. Giving a huge organisation power whilst reducing the effect of your own local democracy and replacing it with something that is inherently undemocratic is a MISTAKE.

    THINK!



    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    democracy does not disappear just because we do or dont enact something. You maybe angry that a decision you thought settled was in fact not ... Whether we enact Brexit or not will be something we as a nation decide no-one else and as such it will be our democratic will. The idea that it will kill democracy if the decision doesn't turn out as you like is just nonsense just the same as if it doesn't turn out the way i want.
    More filimflam. Great how you think you can overturn the result of the largest vote in British history and just casually dismiss it with a few choice words. In that single act you would demonstrate yourself to be one of the most undemocratic of people. Hypocrisy, complete and total.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    And i think that it is economic self harm on such as scale we have never seen before and is small minded, taking us away from our European Neighbours and greater cooperation between us when many of the really big problems facing us in the work today will require us to work ever closer together to solve.
    Possibly, but once again an OPINION and not necessarily true. Regardless, commercial outcomes should not be above that of democracy. That way lies danger, isn't this self-evident?
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jul 29th, 2019 at 04:43 AM.

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    Re: No Deal

    The tone of this thread is heading downhill. Please reel it in a notch or two and avoid ad-hominems.
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    Re: No Deal

    Lies were told by both sides - what about the 'lies' that remainers said about the collapse of the UK economy if we voted to leave, the increase in the un-employed or that an emergency budget would be needed etc etc None was true.
    The "lies" told by the remain campaign have, debatably, been proved wrong after the fact... and still represent very possible outcomes. The "lies" told by the leave campaign were often demonstrably false before the fact. There's a substantive difference between the two.

    Personally, if I was going to jump in to the whole "shady practices by both campaigns" argument I wouldn't be focussing on the promises the remain campaign held out (they've held up better than most of the leave promises). I'd be focussing on the pro-remain leaflet that was put through every door in this country, at public expense, before the campaigning was supposed to have started. If that does not constitute malpractice I don't know what does.

    As for the idea that the EU will subsume our democracy and it will disappear do people not think we have a choice in this as part of the EU do you think that Germany or France or Italy or any of the other 27 states has no democracy? or will allow the EU just to take all there democratic power away?
    Demonstrably they have done exactly that. Just ask an Italian, Spaniard or Greek.
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    Re: No Deal

    I'd be focussing on the pro-remain leaflet that was put through every door in this country, at public expense, before the campaigning was supposed to have started. If that does not constitute malpractice I don't know what does.
    Quite right! Mine went straight into the bin.
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    Re: No Deal

    This is just your personal opinion and does not represent reality,
    Yes, that statement was a personal opinion but ALL of what you said was also 'just' personal opinion. Do not discount the observations of others just because you have a personal and biased preference for the EU.
    Well you managed to take that quote and put it out of context, my statement about it being your personal opinion was specifically about you saying that democracy would disappear if brexit is not carried out, which is just hyperbole and an attempt to denigrate those who disagree with you as being somehow undemocratic.

    I am happy to listen to others opinions even when they are at odds with my own, that doesn't mean i wont challenge them

    This is 'just' an opinion and NOT a fact. Many laws are determined by the EU and have an over-arching effect on the UK, have you done any education in law? Do you not understand the disparity between common and statute law? Do you understand the absence of common law in the EU?
    Yes i understand the difference between common and statute law, (i have worked at law firms & now work at a software house writing software for law firms for over 20 years) common law being based upon precedent and statue law being that passed down by legislators and it would certainly make sense to me that the EU would have no common law as it is by its very nature legislative and lacks a body of previous cases to base precedent on, and you cant just pick the case law from one country out of 28 can you?

    I am also aware of the primacy of EU law, but in return i would ask you again outside of trade, citizens rights & consumer rights can you name an EU law that overrides ours thats problematic?

    If these are the areas of law that the EU focuses on then i dont have much problem with them, if you can show me other examples we can talk about them

    The goal of the EU IS to be one homogeneous state, do some research into the founding fathers of the EU, and look at the statement in the EU's charter. Even your facts are just opinions. "People misunderstand", what bollox... It is clear in the wording and in its actions.
    I have done plenty of research and i have also spent a fair amount of time on both France and Germany two of the other big powers in the EU, what you see as a threat to sovereignty they generally see as an extension of theirs.

    here is an article form fullfact.org explaining ever closer union

    https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/


    You really are Mr. Gullible. Try thinking outside the box and stop following like a sheep.
    No need to get personal, you dont have to agree with my argument but you could at least counter it with debate rather than lobbing insults

    Good, you recognise the lack of democracy but you fail to see the danger in that and the threat it holds. The only thing worth defending in the EU is democracy. It is under assault from all sides, corporatism, commercial and political. Giving a huge organisation power whilst reducing the effect of your own local democracy and replacing it with something that is inherently undemocratic is a MISTAKE.
    Oh i fully understand the flaws of the EU in no way do i think its a perfect system i would like it to reform rather than be thrown out though, i am not an ideologue and i think it can do many things better, but i also see the many faults in our own democracy and dont necessarily find it a lot better.

    Why are we still stuck with basically a 2 party system for instance? surely a proper democracy should be representative not winner takes all?

    Personally i dont believe that the EU is a fundamental threat to our democracy not just out of blind loyalty or because well its hasn't happened yet but because for that to happen then all the other EU countries would have to agree to it and why would they? the elected leaders of the various EU countries have on interest in relinquishing their personal power.


    More filimflam. Great how you think you can overturn the result of the largest vote in British history and just casually dismiss it with a few choice words. In that single act you would demonstrate yourself to be one of the most undemocratic of people. Hypocrisy, complete and total.
    I dont dismiss it, i fundamentally disagree with it yes but i know that we had a major vote, also we have an elected Parliament which has tried to enact the result of that vote without success which is why we are where we are, i also understand that democracy does not end with one vote.

    Because of where we are politically we maybe in line for another General Election and another Vote. I know that those people that just want to leave by any means necessary may not like that but in my opinion that were we are heading. Maybe Boris can somehow figure out a way to leave with out going to a GE but looking at parliament currently i doubt it.

    If we do have a GE, then the result of that will finally set the path forward one way or the other at least
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    Quite right! Mine went straight into the bin.
    I second that "quite right!". I thought it appalling that a government should be so partisan in a referendum giving heavy weight to one side of gthe discussion. Remember for all the flak the Tory party are receiving for trying to negotiate, they wanted to REMAIN, which is probably why they have failed. I suggest the two stark options on the ballot paper was to make it as clear as possible that you ought to vote REMAIN as the other option was so final. It didn't work.

    The tory party's travails show if you go against the expressed will of a nation you will fall foul, one way or another. May should have been the person (the 2nd iron lady) who got her will and took us gently out of the EU. Insteadm, she was as feeble as was demonstrated. I had high hopes for her, all dashed.

    Labour have been equally heavily implicated in all this party politix. and their failure to have any direction at all just shows how double-dealing and untrustworthy Corbyn is.

    Boris (for all his myriad faults) is pursuing the direction as the public told parliament to do so. If it makes you feel any better, Boris is the Farage you know rather than the Farage you don't.

    Apologies if I appeared ad hominem but the other chap' mealy-mouthed words just seem so much talk and no substance, always following hopes or beliefs for this and that, just so frustrating.

    Assume the worst of your adversary or even what you think of as your friend. Assume that what you hold dear is going to be taken away and then protect it. People died in WWII to protect British parliamentary democracy that began in England has been extended to Scotland, Ireland, and Wales and then a good portion of the democratic world. Britain is a sovereign nation (just) and this will be our last chance to remain that way.

  28. #468
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    Re: No Deal

    People died in WWII...
    Ooh, now there I'm going to take issue. The guys that died in WW2 were not doing so in the name of Brexit. If you were able to go back and ask them I'm fairly sure you'd find that most agreed with the ideals of a peacefully united Europe, if not the EU's implementation. But, in truth, neither side of the debate gets to invoke them. Their sacrifice sits well above either of us.


    ...always following hopes or beliefs for this and that, just so frustrating.
    I do think this speaks rather well to the frustrations on both sides. The truth is that none of us really know whether Brexit will be good or bad or what the best form of Brexit will be. And we won't know until after the event when it will be too late to change it. We won't even really know then, we'll be forever presented with a set of what ifs.

    So all we really have are opinions. Some of those are more informed than others but I worked as an economic analyst when I first left college and I can honestly say that we were pretty much just guessing (I did manage to predict Black Monday, though... and was immediately made redundant). I tend to trust experts more than I trust Iffy Joe from down the pub, but I treat experts with a degree of scepticism too. I don't believe Brexit will be in any way good for us financially but I don't believe we're going to be a mad max post apocalyptic wasteland come 2021.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 29th, 2019 at 09:46 AM.
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    Re: No Deal

    Why are we still stuck with basically a 2 party system for instance?
    Well I'm a lib dem so I'm pretty sure you can guess my opinion. Indeed, it's the breakdown of our two main parties that's fuelling a lot of the problems we have now.

    In an overwhelmingly two party dominated system, first past the post works better than PR. In that world, "first past the post" = "has a majority" and having a single elected party with a single voice makes for focussed and efficient decision making. But as third or lower parties begin to make up a significant portion of the vote, it becomes impossible for a single party to gain a majority and we end up with hung parliaments and dead locks. That's where we are now. Bring on PR I say.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 29th, 2019 at 09:37 AM.
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Well you managed to take that quote and put it out of context,
    No I didn't. I just responded. At the top.

    Talking to you is rather pointless (no ad hominem intended, it is simply the truth), you are entrenched on taking Britain into what I would see as the dark that forms an unknown future within the EU. I am for putting a brake on further expansion of EU sovereignty at the expense of our own. While the EU seeks "ever further union" the only alternative is to leave.

    These are the essentials, all the rest of the talk is so much flim flam.

    Whether you believe democracy is challenged, well, that is an opinion and so is mine. To turn that opinion into a belief you have a referendum, then the opinion is given form and substance given the will. That referendum has happened, opinions have been cast to votes in favour of leave.

    You and your opinions prove you are not a democrat, though you think you are one. You believe the people cannot be trusted when they don't vote your way and all you want to do is to have more referenda and more votes until your opinion comes out unchallenged. If I did the same I would consider myself at best, underhand and undemocratic. You cannot see the contradiction in this. You should be a politician (there's the insult ).

    If the EU put a plan on the table to allow the UK to control its own borders ad infinitum, to allow access to the common market and to allow Britain freedom to determine its own laws within a trading bloc, then Brexit could still be smooth and the transition painless. It could still do that and we might delay actual Brexit for five years or so whilst that transition was carried out.

    I doubt the EU can do that as it would mean the ultimate disintegration of the EU as other countries would probably want do the same at some point. I think it would be a healthy thing allowing EU states to tag along as it were putting a brake on the EU proceeding to a unitary state.

    I am sure a hard Brexit has been inevitable from the beginning unless we were going to suck it up as dictated to by Brussels.

    Frankly I have said all that I intend to say here as I seem to be talking to a mere one man and that is not worth my time and effort as you are clearly not hearing the strength of the other position.

    Howver, I hear your position loud and clear, I see the lure of the EU, the pooled power and the commercial market it represents and I realise the UK will be weaker without it, these are all cogent arguments to the sane. But - and here is the but, I truly believe that the EU is sclerotic and provably undemocratic and the potential negatives outweigh the positives massively. That is my opinion, I expressed it here and in a vote.

    The fact that the negotiation failed us is an outcome of bad faith on the part of the EU and of the British government.

    I'd say to both - deny that outcome at your own risk as the penalty will be paid. I am sure of it.

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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Ooh, now there I'm going to take issue. The guys that died in WW2 were not doing so in the name of Brexit.
    The British and Commonwealth volunteers and majority of conscripts that died defending Britain were fighting for Britain's freedom, its people, institutions and its democracy, what it represents versus what the adversary represented. That is quite clear. No mistaking my message.

    If you think they are under threat fight for them. When others have fought hard and died, then it is your turn to fight for those same rights. That is my message.

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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    In an overwhelmingly two party dominated system, first past the post works better than PR. In that world, "first past the post" = "has a majority" and having a single elected party with a single voice makes for focussed and efficient decision making. But as third or lower parties begin to make up a significant portion of the vote, it becomes impossible for a single party to gain a majority and we end up with hung parliaments and dead locks. That's where we are now. Bring on PR I say.
    PR causes exactly that situation ALL of the time. The worst political party in the world was brought into being and then into power because of PR. We don't even need to mention its name. PR would simply give the deciding power to the smallest party that can gang up with the other smaller parties to defeat the majority. A disaster for the UK if it were to be implemented.

    The current blockage is not because the UK's populace is equally split and entrenched in its opinions but because parliament is divided in favour of remain. This would not change one jot under PR. The MPs must simply observe the outcome of the vote and then to vote in parliament according to how their constituents tell them. They are not.

    The Brexit vote is possibly the purest form of PR that there is, a complete majority.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jul 29th, 2019 at 09:51 AM.

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    Re: No Deal

    I'm bowing out now chaps, see you on other threads.

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    Re: No Deal

    You and your opinions prove you are not a democrat, though you think you are one. You believe the people cannot be trusted when they don't vote your way and all you want to do is to have more referenda and more votes until your opinion comes out unchallenged.
    That is just you putting words into my mouth, at no point have i said that the people cannot be trusted, i have just pointed out that our political system has been pretty much deadlocked for a while now and it might take another vote to unblock it.

    You can moan and groan all you like about will of the people and being underhanded or whatever but it will make no difference.

    If you just came on this thread to throw insults and generally be obnoxious then why post at all??


    PR causes exactly that situation ALL of the time. The worst political party in the world was brought into being and then into power because of PR. We don't even need to mention its name. PR would simply give the deciding power to the smallest party that can gang up with the other smaller parties to defeat the majority. A disaster for the UK if it were to be implemented.
    PR is currently used in a fair number of countries right now including;

    Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Luxembourg, Norway, Russia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland

    but yes of course all those countries must be undemocratic.
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    Re: No Deal

    ?

    Am I meant to answer that? it was aimed at me and I told you I was leaving - if so, I am not going to answer, anymore.

    I understand you perfectly and you just misrepresented me just as you think I did to you earlier. Pot and black? You are not listening and that is why it is pointless to continue discussion. To continue would be to invite more ad hominem discussions, from me directly or from you cleverly worded or otherwise, so as I said I am off, unsubscribed so I won't receive any more notifications. TTFN. See you on other threads.

  36. #476
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Once again, reign it in.

    yereverluvinuncleber, whether by intention or not you're coming across as aggressive. It's a shame because you've got some good points to make and it's good to have some pre-leave voices in the thread; it makes for balanced discussion. But we want to keep the discussion civil or there will be no discussion, it quickly loses any value.

    To others, if yereverluvinuncleber wishes to leave the thread, please let him do so without parting shots. If he wishes to return, that's good too.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 30th, 2019 at 03:10 AM.
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  37. #477
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Going way back to this question:-
    One question I have is: If Boris gets no concessions (which I expect), or they aren't good enough, and you reach Oct 31 with parliament still being unwilling to put it's stamp on no deal, what happens?
    ...this article gives a pretty good idea of just how tight the timetable now is before we just drop out by default. The window is literally less than a week and even then it comes down to whether parliament wants to break the tradition of always holding our elections on a Thursday (I have no idea where this comes from). Assuming they do (and I imagine they will) Boris can still just ignore them and declare that wrapping up government will require more than the standard 25 days.
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  38. #478
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    Why Thursday? This is historical. If the vote was set for a Friday, which was pay day, workers were likely to head to the nearest pub, where they might be persuaded into voting Conservative by Tory brewing interests. If they voted on Sunday, after attending Church, they might be swayed by the views of their local preacher, who was more likely to be a Liberal.

    Thursday was thought to be the weekday 'furthest' away from these influences, allowing voters to make up their own minds in the mean time. It was also typically market day, meaning that people were more likely to be in town and thus in closer proximity to a polling station.
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  39. #479
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    ^That is interesting, and pretty typical of the way our systems tend to come about. Thanks
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

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  40. #480
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    Re: No Deal

    ...this article gives a pretty good idea of just how tight the timetable now is before we just drop out by default. The window is literally less than a week and even then it comes down to whether parliament wants to break the tradition of always holding our elections on a Thursday (I have no idea where this comes from). Assuming they do (and I imagine they will) Boris can still just ignore them and declare that wrapping up government will require more than the standard 25 days.
    That is interesting but i wouldn't say that 4th September is the latest a no confidence motion could be called as it does not take into account an extension to the deadline.

    If a no confidence motion is successful parliament could then go back to Brussels and ask for an extension in order to hold a GE, which they have already indicated they would give for those circumstances.

    So the latest that one could be called is probably 10th October although if it where to happen that would be leaving it very close to the deadline, the previous extensions have been asked for and given at the last minute.

    Lots of assumption would have to be met before we get to there though, i dont think any of us no just how far Boris is prepared to push for no deal not even him.

    If Boris was faced with the prospect of having to prorogue parliament, and/or enough conservative ministers told him they would vote against him in a no confidence motion would he go ahead anyway and call their bluff or would he back down?

    I feel there is still some twists and turns ahead and once again we will get fairly close to the 31st deadline before we find out.
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