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Thread: No Deal

  1. #561
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    I've never actually watched Battle Royale. It's been on my bucket list for ages but just never quite made it to the screen.
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  2. #562
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    I've never actually watched Battle Royale.
    What have you been doing with your life FD, stop what your doing right now go watch it and report back

    Seriously though it is a classic film, and the likes of Fortnight & PubG basically wouldn't exist without this film
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  3. #563
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    You folks make some compelling arguments. It certainly appears that Brexit will have one lasting impact: The parties are going to tear down and rebuild. What will end up looks like an EU party and an anti-EU party, with all other issues being secondary to that primary division. Labor and Lib Dems will be different flavors of one side, while Tory and the Farage Fruitcake party will be different flavors of the other side. After all, no matter how this resolves (leave, remain...or permanent dysfunction), the fight will not be over. If you leave, the fight will be over the dissolution of the empire and who (and how) to trade with. If you stay, it will be a different kind of fight, kind of like the current Scottish separation, where the fight is never really over.
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  4. #564
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    Re: No Deal

    I think when I first heard of it my mates were raving but I thought the premise sounded silly so I wasn't interested. The Hunger Games, while not exactly rocking my world, did convince me that the premise stands up. So, now I really ought to watch it to see if my mates were right.

    I think the fact that it's sub-titled is another barrier because I'm a bit lazy when I watch films. I'm really going to upset folks when I say that I preferred the American version of the Ring for this reason (seriously, the creepy scenes with flies, ladders etc are identical, and that's really what the film is about). If there's one think likely to cause a bigger row than Brexit, it's that assertion
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  5. #565
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    You folks make some compelling arguments...
    Go on and spoil it by getting things back on topic

    I think your assessment of the future shape of the political parties is broadly correct but perhaps a little over simplified where Labour is concerned. The Tories certainly look like they're going to turn more and more into a single issue Brexit Party. The LibDems, Greens, SNP and Plaid are all cohesive as Remain already so they'll just continue much as they are - they won't become single issue parties as such.

    But Labour, that could get really interesting. It might not be obvious to an outside observer (or it might) but Labour are every bit as divided over Europe as the Tories are. That's why Corbyn refused to take a position for so long. He still hasn't really and the only position the labour party have really taken is "we think there should be a general election"... which isn't actually a position on Brexit at all. If Labour were in government and trying to push some sort of resolution through you'd be seeing them melt down just as dramatically as the Tories are. Don't make the mistake of thinking Labour are a remain party, they're not.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  6. #566
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    Re: No Deal

    I think when I first heard of it my mates were raving but I thought the premise sounded silly so I wasn't interested. The Hunger Games, while not exactly rocking my world, did convince me that the premise stands up. So, now I really ought to watch it to see if my mates were right.
    The premise does sound a bit silly, but actually when you watch it kind of seems sort of believable in Japan. Also it is a far better film than the Hunger games and far more violent. There is enough action in it that you can deal with the subtitles, it not like one of the foreign language films that is overly heavy on dialog.
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  7. #567
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    Re: No Deal

    farage fruitcake party
    best description of Brexit party anyone has ever come up with
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  8. #568
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    Re: No Deal

    But Labour, that could get really interesting. It might not be obvious to an outside observer (or it might) but Labour are every bit as divided over Europe as the Tories are. That's why Corbyn refused to take a position for so long. He still hasn't really and the only position the labour party have really taken is "we think there should be a general election"... which isn't actually a position on Brexit at all. If Labour were in government and trying to push some sort of resolution through you'd be seeing them melt down just as dramatically as the Tories are. Don't make the mistake of thinking Labour are a remain party, they're not.
    Oh its pretty obvious that they are divided otherwise they wouldn't have had a policy to sit firmly on the fence for the last 6 months

    What they have agreed at the PLP though is if they get in power is to try and do a better Brexit deal and then put that to a referendum. Whether they campaign for remain or their deal in that situation is in doubt, but i have no doubt that that policy will be backed by the MP's if that is what is in there Manifesto.

    People want a resolution and i believe that they are going to get a much more binary choice in this next election
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  9. #569
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    Re: No Deal

    What they have agreed at the PLP though is if they get in power is to try and do a better Brexit deal and then put that to a referendum.
    Yeah, but we all know that there is no better Brexit deal so that referendum will still be "do you want to do this deal". The answer to which will be no. And that's when the melt down would happen.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  10. #570
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    Re: No Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    but perhaps a little over simplified where Labour is concerned.
    Sorry, I'm American. Once we get beyond two parties, we get confused. Whenever we come up with a third party, the whole question revolves around who they are hurting more, rather than their position.

    My feeling with Corbyn is that he'd like to be a Leaver, but is head of a party that is majority Remain, though perhaps by a narrow margin. So, he speaks the party line, but his heart isn't in it. He's certainly a mess, though.
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  11. #571
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    Re: No Deal

    My feeling with Corbyn is that he'd like to be a Leaver, but is head of a party that is majority Remain, though perhaps by a narrow margin. So, he speaks the party line, but his heart isn't in it.
    Nail, head, hit. It's not just Corbyn though. A lot of "old school" Labour are anti EU because they see it as a capitalist old boys club. Meanwhile most of the new young members that Corbyn has managed to mobilise are extremely pro-EU because they see the EU as espousing liberal and socialist ideals. "New" labour (who aren't new anymore) that supported Blair also tend to be pro EU.

    That dichotomy hasn't really come home to roost for Labour because they're in opposition so can dodge the issue and avoid taking a position. If they manage to win an election
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  12. #572
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    Re: No Deal

    Yeah, but we all know that there is no better Brexit deal so that referendum will still be "do you want to do this deal". The answer to which will be no. And that's when the melt down would happen.
    Oh i agree there is no better deal, but clearly Corbyn's policy is to get a deal which is a full permanent Customs Union, and to pitch that deal against remain, and put it to a referendum. Which ever wins which will be enacted as in this case you wont be voting on an idea but on an outcome.

    When we do have an election we will get a choice between that and No Deal from Boris, i could be wrong but that is where i see us heading. That way we have an election that either Boris wins and No Deal wins, or he loses and then it's some form of Customs Union deal or remain.

    Boris and his cohorts could still find a way to leave with no deal before then, but if they dont then thats my prediction anyway.
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  13. #573
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    Re: No Deal

    Corbyn's policy is to get a deal which is a full permanent Customs Union, and to pitch that deal against remain, and put it to a referendum.
    That's what will precipitate the labour meltdown. The labour Bexiters will see that as a choice between remaining and remaining. I think you're probably right that the labour party will end up pursuing that policy but only after they go through a similar train-wreck to the one the Tories are going through now.

    There is some really weird cognitive dissonance going on in the Labour party right now. All those new bright young things that Corbyn managed to mobilise don't seem to realise that they're ideologically much closer to the likes of Blair than they are to Corbyn. Corbyn managed to mobilise a huge proportion of the youth, who are idealistic but generally fairly moderate, but his original support is from the hard left. He's rode that tiger pretty well but only because he's never taken a position on... anything. As soon as he does he's going to be caught between Scylla and Charybdis.

    Boris and his cohorts could still find a way to leave with no deal before then, but if they dont then thats my prediction anyway.
    I don't see how they can. The only two routes I can see are that the new law is found unlawful when Boris takes it to the high court. This is possible but unlikely. Parliament taking control of the agenda wasn't challenged last time so is now precedent. Bercow's partisanship has also gone unchallenged so is similarly precedential. And courts don't like overturning parliament. The other path is that Boris just straight up ignores the new law and refuses to go to Europe. Nobody can actually force him to short of dragging him there in chains. At which point he's breaking the law (you could even get a bit hyperbolic and call this treason) but Brexit goes ahead.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  14. #574
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    Re: No Deal

    I think you're probably right that the labour party will end up pursuing that policy but only after they go through a similar train-wreck to the one the Tories are going through now.
    Maybe, but while there are leavers in Labour none of them want a no deal what will likely be the fight there whether the party backs the deal or remain in any referendum.

    You only have to look at the Stephen Kinnock's groups attempt to get May's deal resurrected to show that they will back any deal that is secured as long as it means leaving the EU.

    I don't see how they can. The only two routes I can see are that the new law is found unlawful when Boris takes it to the high court. This is possible but unlikely. Parliament taking control of the agenda wasn't challenged last time so is now precedent. Bercow's partisanship has also gone unchallenged so is similarly precedential. And courts don't like overturning parliament. The other path is that Boris just straight up ignores the new law and refuses to go to Europe. Nobody can actually force him to short of dragging him there in chains. At which point he's breaking the law (you could even get a bit hyperbolic and call this treason) but Brexit goes ahead.
    Yeah its is a weird one he can refuse to go although at that point he is breaking the law and will be taken to the supreme court which could (according to a supreme court judge in the news the other day) make a judgement allowing someone else to go in his place and giving them the power of the PM in this matter to sign an extension.

    If they try and break the law in order to not ask for the extension then we are getting in pretty weird territory, and some commentators are saying that Boris might even resign at this point forcing Corbyn to go and ask for the extension. This would though make Corbyn interim PM which i cant imagine any Tory wanting to happen, but the remaining options are narrowing.
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  15. #575
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: No Deal

    make a judgement allowing someone else to go in his place and giving them the power of the PM
    I'm not sure that's at the behest of the British courts... or any British institution for that matter. It's the EU rules that require it to be the PM. Mind you, I think they're likely to allow it.

    I can't see Boris resigning, but maybe.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  16. #576
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    Re: No Deal

    So, I went away for a few days and nothing totally melted. The last I heard, Boris was being belittled by the EU. Anything new since then?
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  17. #577
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    Re: No Deal

    The Supreme Court is going to rule next week as to whether the Prorogation of Parliament was legal or not (English High Court say yea, the Scottish High Court say nae). The EU is now saying that there could possibly be the beginnings of a potential deal for the October Council summit - based upon having some common food/farming regs across all of Ireland....
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