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Thread: A few of you need some etiquette

  1. #1

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    Angry A few of you need some etiquette

    First of all, every one of you started coding by snatching code from someone else so stop trying to pretend code is some secret you have to keep all to yourself. If someone posts here in the forums (where you go to find answers) and you don't have an answer for them, don't comment. If you think they're just looking for a handout and you've seen them post over and over the last 24 hours, don't comment. It really is that simple. Maybe you don't understand how forums work and shouldn't be here if you have some deep-seated hatred for "noobs" asking questions in a forum... the exact place you're supposed to ask questions/provide answers. If you comment with a link from lmgtfy.com, you're a douche and need to leave. Don't half-ass read the post, either, and then comment on only part of it without understanding what the person fully wants/needs. Some of you assume it's some lazy ass 13-year old kid trying to extract your knowledge without doing the legwork. Yes, there are some that do that. But to envelope everyone asking for help into that category is ludicrous. If you're actually saying that you've never taken code from someone else, you're lying and look stupid doing so. In closing, if you have the code someone needs, give it. If not, don't comment. Stop trying to exact your revenge on the many because of the few. The code you have is not so special that you can't share with the asking world and maybe kickstart a future developer of something you might need one day.

    TL;DR
    Stop being a dick.

  2. #2
    Frenzied Member ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    who is TL and DR ?

    also you should not call somebody a D**k
    remember the etiquette
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
    since 2010 the number of Tigers are rising again in 2016 - 3900 were counted. with Baby Callas it's 3901, my wife and I had 2-3 months the privilege of raising a Baby Tiger.

  3. #3
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by Isiah View Post
    First of all, every one of you started coding by snatching code from someone else
    Not true. I started coding by buying a computer and reading the manual then typing in different statements and see what they would do. Lots of trial and error. There was no forums where you could ask questions, I did not know anyone who knew anything about programming it was all trail and error at the beginning. By the time I was able to find a medium to ask questions I found myself answering many and getting answers to almost none. I enrolled in a class at the local college but found it to be a waste of time as I was already more advanced than the class. I went out and bought some books and more trial and error learned a great deal more.

    I personally have no problem answering question and helping people learn but when someone is asking to have it done for them I have no interest in helping in that way. It took years to learn this stuff when I started. I'm not aware of anyone here assuming that everyone is just lazy and asking for handouts but there are a lot of them who are and do often. I can't even count the number of times I have seen a post where the poster does not even take the time to detail his problem and then asks for someone to fix it or give them code to fix it or even asks for someone to download the project, debug it, fix it and reupload it. Also it is not uncommon to see people posts questions directly out of their homework and wanting someone to do their work for them, often they do not even type more than one sentence just copy and paste and hope they can copy and paste the answer.

    Now since this is your first post there is no way to tell what group you may fall into but your first post is not likely to earn you many friends.

  4. #4
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Isiah,

    For the most part, I agree with your comments. And, as I read your post, my thoughts go all over the place. I suppose I'll get the most obvious out of the way first: It seems that you're asking us to be completely open with everything we do, but you've obviously created this Isiah account to conceal your own identity, and you're being quite evasive regarding any specific issue/post that's gotten you upset.

    I suppose, since it's been brought up, I'll take this opportunity to address several of my thoughts regarding these forums:

    There have been things that have upset me on these forums many times, and I'm sure it will happen again in the future. I'm not sure it's for the best, but these forums have toughened my skin. And I do seem to swing both ways regarding some of the sore issues on these forums.

    One issue is when people ask simplistic questions that have been answered many times in prior threads. My first thought is always, "Did you even bother to do a Google search?" And sometimes I suggest that they do precisely that. If I'm in the mood, I'll do it for them and provide links to the answers. Other times, it's just frustrating that they won't even attempt to find the answers on their own. But, in some ways, that's just part of the nature of these forums.

    Another that bothers me is when it seems like someone just wants me to do their work for them. This recent thread is a perfect example of that. Usually, I will just stay quiet on those. However, today, I'm a bit bored, so I provided a partial answer, but I'm still not sure I should have done that. I truly do see these forums as a place where people should come to learn, and not a place where people should come to plead with others to do their work for them.

    That brings me to another related annoyance. Those posts that place "ASAP", "URGENT", or "NEED HELP QUICK" in their OPs are particularly annoying. In my mind, I always think, "Your problem isn't automatically my problem." Personally, I hope the people who make those kinds of posts get slower answers than the others, but I suppose that's a bit petty. It's honest though.

    I will also agree that some of the "old hats" (probably including myself) can be quite cantankerous at times. Personally, I try to use "I statements" when addressing others, and to not get too dogmatic. As with most things in life, there's not necessarily one absolute way to do things (although most of us could easily come up with examples of where we'd think there are clear right and wrong ways to do things). What do I mean by "I statements"? For instance, let's just take the use of "Option Explicit". If someone asked about this, I'd probably say, "If it were me, I'd ...", rather than "You should always...". However, it does seem that many here missed getting that fundamental social training when they were, ummm, learning to interact with others.

    On another topic, yes, I rather vehemently disagree with some of the long-time members about certain philosophies. The whole issue of open-source is what immediately comes to mind. If someone is trying to make money by selling software, I understand keeping their source closed. However, I don't think they should include any open-source in their projects if that's their approach. In fact, if someone has used any licensed open-source in their projects, I personally think they should be willing to open-source those projects as well. However, that's an issue that has been beaten to death multiple times in these forums. I do possibly think it goes to some of the points you were trying to make.

    I suppose I'll close with a couple of non-coding points. First, particularly for the active members, I think we're lying if we say that we come here only for the coding expertise. We come here because it provides us with some social interaction, talking about something we know something about. And, in all truthfulness, we come here because it occasionally feels good on our egos.

    And lastly, I think it's a fundamental part of the human psyche that we will never be fully honest with others about our intentions and motivations. In fact, I don't think it's even possible for us to be totally honest with ourselves about these things. We all just plug along, attempting to find some glimpses of happiness, possibly figuring out some coding problem, possibly finding someone that shares similar ideas, or who knows.

    Anyway, I applaud your effort, and I do sometimes find myself wishing the moderators would take a bit more of a proactive role regarding some of this stuff. However, I also understand that it's a huge virtual minefield that they'd be walking into. I applaud the job they do, and, in the end, I'm truly grateful that these forums are here.

    Best Regards,
    Elroy

    EDIT1: Yeah, I'll comment on that "code snatching" as well. I've been seriously coding since the late '70s. There are a couple of cases where I purchased code, and there have been times where I hired programmers who signed intellectual property agreements with my company. However, for the first many years, the vast majority of the code was typed out and alpha-tested was with the tips of my fingers. I can't remember exactly when I started getting the idea to do internet searches for ideas, but I was somewhere around the mid-90s. And even then, it was only as a last resort. I truly enjoyed the challenge of working everything out on my own. And also, and it still exists, I just never fully trust code that's not written (or at least thoroughly vetted) by me. At least at the VB6 level, if I haven't rather thoroughly thought through what a piece of code is doing, I'm quite reluctant to use it.
    Last edited by Elroy; Dec 8th, 2018 at 01:13 PM.
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  5. #5
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
    who is TL and DR ?
    That would probably be the TOO-LONG/DIDN'T READ version that followed on the line below.

    Assuming an individual is going to skip the entire text that would be the Cliff note version.

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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    OP has a quasi-valid point that is unfortunately surrounded by assumptions and demands.

    The problem is, only a very, very small number of posts made by new members contain adequate information to properly assist namely:

    -The desired outcome of the code
    -The relevant code being used
    -The problem that is occurring

    When someone makes a post that outlines an entire project that they are expected to write and end their post with "I'm not even sure where to start", meaning they haven't done any coding yet, why should people here be obligated to bail them out?

    There was a post in the VB.NET forum a couple days ago where someone posted a screenshot from their VB.NET textbook with like 10 programming assignments and offered $20 if someone were to complete and upload any one of the assignments. I have zero problem when people chastise that type of new user. The chances of them becoming a valuable member of the community over time is essentially zero, and I get the feeling from mods that they don't want this site to become the place where people do other people's homework for them. That's certainly not why I'm here.

    I would say the vast majority of people here are more than happy to review a snippet of code and try to help someone figure out why the end result differs from what the poster expects, why an error is being thrown, etc.

    I think giving a new poster the silent treatment when they post something that is too demanding is counter-productive. If they are informed that what they are asking for goes beyond what people normally provide on the site, then they have a better idea what the expectations are for posting new threads on the site. If no one responds to them at all they might not understand why.

  7. #7
    Frenzied Member ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    well I think the OP has in some parts valid point(s)
    but snatching Code from diffrent places to complete
    a Project is one thing, presenting it to the Client
    where the ask right there and then .. I would like that changed, how would you do that..

    pretty quick you can look like a real D**k when you are not able to make
    a suggestion
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
    since 2010 the number of Tigers are rising again in 2016 - 3900 were counted. with Baby Callas it's 3901, my wife and I had 2-3 months the privilege of raising a Baby Tiger.

  8. #8
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    sure, we learn that way many times, but programming for me is like making music and even if i learn one chord from a book or a new beat from a song, that doesnt mean its just a copy&paste.
    the project itself its the whole song and its unique. the problem is that many users come here without knowing "music" at all and want the members here to compose the whole song with lyrics and all without doing any effort themselves. when sometimes we suggest to learn the basic, do re mi fa... not always do we get appreciation but frustration and even attacks from those members that feels like they dont want to learn and expect to get it free or even demand it, its a free forum give me give me or f**k off. that for me is a D**k.
    just look at the many examples and source code the "old" members have done, its huge. why do they need to give even more, its a "free" forum, not their job. they give if they want, if not, we need to accept it, we can not demand anything, we need to be lucky if they want to help, and no matter agenda, if its for their ego or not, in the end, we get help, if they have "stolen" it somewhere else, so what? if they can stole, so can you, go stole it somewhere else, stop expecting that someone else need to give it to you when you ask.

  9. #9
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    There is a Project Requests forum.

    Rather than us all getting bent-out-of-shape over people asking us to do their entire projects, maybe we should work with the moderators to ask that some of these posts get moved to that Project Requests forum. In other words, treat these posts as if they're posted in the wrong forum area, rather than getting upset about it.

    IDK, just an idea. And I've got no idea if the moderators would go along with it or not. And, in some cases, it's not necessarily a black-and-white thing.

    Take Care,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  10. #10
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Sometimes the OP will ask something like "I need a business software made for homework. Can someone do it for me?" I think as long as you're asking the right way, that maybe you've already tried doing your "homework" and not just trying to get others to do everything for you, you'll get help. These guys wanna teach you to fish rather than just give you fish, and some of them get pretty tired of how little work others put into what they're asking about. Just the other day I slipped up a bit, but Olaf took care of me and there was no way I could have done that myself. So I'm very grateful for the help I've gotten on here. Some will really go out of their way.

  11. #11
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    There is a Project Requests forum.

    Rather than us all getting bent-out-of-shape over people asking us to do their entire projects, maybe we should work with the moderators to ask that some of these posts get moved to that Project Requests forum. In other words, treat these posts as if they're posted in the wrong forum area, rather than getting upset about it.

    IDK, just an idea. And I've got no idea if the moderators would go along with it or not. And, in some cases, it's not necessarily a black-and-white thing.

    Take Care,
    Elroy
    Speaking of moving threads... this one is in the wrong spot. Probably should be in Chit/Chat.

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  12. #12
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Speaking of moving threads... this one is in the wrong spot. Probably should be in Chit/Chat.
    Not only this one. I suspect Isiah is specifically targeting folks in this VB6 forum, but it wouldn't upset me if all these threads about VB6's future or discussions of new vaporware IDEs were moved to chit-chat. To quote the forum's stated purpose, "This forum is for all your Visual Basic (versions 3, 4, 5, & 6) coding questions that do not fit into one of the more specific forums below" (emphases added).
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  13. #13
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    I am bit confused!

    This is his first post and he is complaining!, am I missing something?!

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by labmany View Post
    I am bit confused!

    This is his first post and he is complaining!, am I missing something?!
    Quite possibly we all are. The OP appears to have some experience, probably with this forum. Perhaps they had been a long time lurker, but more likely they have a different account.

    In any case, the language bordered on a violation of the AUP, as did the language in at least one of the replies, but the sentiment isn't so invalid. There is no question here, nor is it strictly programming related, so the thread has been moved to Chit-Chat, which is where it belongs.
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    there haven't been to many links to lmgtfy.com in this forum, the most recent were from 2016, ones from other forums don't look relevant. the only one which lead to confrontation and an angry op response was from Aminlv

    http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...ght=lmgtfy.com

    another possible contender was from sarah211 who has already been banned.

    http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...ght=lmgtfy.com

    that gibra is such a card. always stirring up trouble with those lmgtfy links!

    my money is on Aminlv because he has already demonstrated an angry confrontational nature that is easily stirred.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Both of those are kind of old. I'd guess it was somebody active within the last few months, while Aminlv last posted in the spring of 2017, and sarah211 is even further back.
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  17. #17
    Super Moderator RobDog888's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    It was very easy to track who the OP actually is but whats the point in posting the real account. They are probably sitting back reading the replies from their other account cowardly. Just man-up and discuss issues constructively and productively.

    One has to remember this is voluntary to assist members with programming questions. Its free unpaid. If you write crap questions you will get crap answers. Other forums are not as nice or helpful as here. For example on SO if you just post up "gimme code..." or shows no effort on your part, your question will get slammed with down votes and closed.

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    Give a "programmer" code, solve one problem.
    Teach a programmer how to code, solve all his problems.

    With the way the OP made their post, they are showing they themselves need some etiquette.
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  18. #18
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Give a programmer cod....and he'll be a bit confused.
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  19. #19
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    First of all, every one of you started coding by snatching code from someone else so stop trying to pretend code is some secret you have to keep all to yourself.
    Err no that is not how most of us learned to code and in fact that is not even a good way to learn to code, if your expecting to come to a forum and someone to hand you the code you need in full you wont understand it and you wont learn and you wont improve.

    Obviously all of us have at some point used code examples which you can get just from searching google but if you dont understand the example how does that help you in the long run. I always though the best thing about a forum was you could get into a dialog with people who could help explain how things work

    Maybe you don't understand how forums work and shouldn't be here if you have some deep-seated hatred for "noobs" asking questions in a forum... the exact place you're supposed to ask questions/provide answers.
    I would say most of us here know how forums work and have been contributing at this forum for many many years. Most of us actually want to help and spend our free time doing so.

    You always get some members who get pissed at people just asking for people to do there work in full for them. They have a point even if they may not always come across nicely. Providing example code can take time and effort, generally most of us are not sitting on lots of code snippets that do exactly what you want we have to put in some work and we are doing this for free, so we appreciate it when the poster looks like they are prepared to put in some effort themselves and not just expect us to do all the work for them.

    In closing, if you have the code someone needs, give it. If not, don't comment.
    We are not here just to give code when someone asks we are here to help people understand how to code for themselves when posters demand code or post stuff asking for someone just to provide fully working code for there request sometime people here object to that.

    I rarely post in those threads myself i just dont help, but i do understand the frustrations of some of the regular posters here that come across a lot of these posts. They feel that posters should try and fix a problem themselves.

    If you post the code you have used to try and fix a problem yourself generally you will get a good response as people will look at it and help you fix what you have done.

    Also funnily enough coders really really like examples, it helps us understand what the problem is rather than guessing and wasting our time.
    Last edited by NeedSomeAnswers; Yesterday at 09:29 AM.
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  20. #20
    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    WOW.... There are so many things wrong with the OP's post I get a headache counting them.

    I'm going to give the REAL Isiah 48 hours to apologize before the BAN HAMMER strikes again.

  21. #21
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    I do sometimes find myself wishing the moderators would take a bit more of a proactive role regarding some of this stuff. However, I also understand that it's a huge virtual minefield that they'd be walking into.
    Yep, that pretty much sums it up. We try and reflect the general position of the forum members rather than trying to dictate it. The general opinion seems to be that "lazy posters" should be challenged but that the challenge should stop short of a personal attack, so that's roughly the target we shoot for. "You really need to do some work yourself" is acceptable but "your a stinking noob and lazy and your mother's ugly" would attract a warning or some sort of ban. We have issued bans for that sort of thing in the past but, mostly, if a senior member is too harsh in the way they're responding we'll send a polite pm asking them to be more considerate. The membership here is pretty mature in comparison to a lot of the forums you'll find on the net and I'm usually pleasantly surprised by it's ability to self-moderate.

    Personally (as a member rather than as a mod) I agree with some of the sentiment the OP has expressed: if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing. But unfortunately the way they've chosen to go about raising it directly violates our rules (creating a "false" account) and comes pretty close to trolling in the way it's been worded. It's a reasonable position poorly argued.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Yesterday at 10:32 AM.
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  22. #22
    Super Moderator RobDog888's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    WOW.... There are so many things wrong with the OP's post I get a headache counting them.

    I'm going to give the REAL Isiah 48 hours to apologize before the BAN HAMMER strikes again.
    Maybe just revealing his true identity will be enough. Other members will no longer want to help him as hes cutting his own throat lol
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  23. #23
    Frenzied Member ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    Maybe just revealing his true identity will be enough. Other members will no longer want to help him as hes cutting his own throat lol
    ..now I know what the -Ignore List- would be for
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
    since 2010 the number of Tigers are rising again in 2016 - 3900 were counted. with Baby Callas it's 3901, my wife and I had 2-3 months the privilege of raising a Baby Tiger.

  24. #24
    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    It's been 24 hours and counting.

    I've been a forum junkie for 25 years... To this day, it still makes my little heart go pitter patter watching total strangers help one another.

    The only thing worse than a "lazy poster" is a "lazy poster" that thinks we're all his personal slave.

    My favorite idiot was a guy that posted the same question on 5 sister sites... He understood that in a perfect world that the suggestions from one site that failed SHOULD be posted on the other sites so that it would give people more information and that people wouldn't duplicate the suggestions....

    Course he never paid the help he received forward.... Finally banned him on all sites

  25. #25
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Twenty five years ago, I didn't even have internet.

    One of the things about the first part of the original rant is that it puts an age on the OP. A whole lot of us started out when there wasn't an internet to get help from. Yeah, we could copy code...as long as we were willing to type it in ourselves, and we happened to find a book or magazine with some useful code in it. That's not so likely. If you have a question about A, then you can go looking for people who wrote an article about A, but even with a good library, that wouldn't be likely to turn anything up. Everybody might have been writing about B or C, or perhaps they wrote about A, but didn't include any code.

    The internet has sure made this easier.
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  26. #26
    Frenzied Member ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    the problem I see with 'copy&paste coders' copying code from all Forums somehow
    might get the Program to work. They really don't understand 20% of what they
    copied, and the poor Client will at somepoint find out once they need a change
    in the Programm

    so the Internet is a good thing, but can create alot of trouble for Company's getting
    the wrong girl/guy theat tend to copy&Paste only.
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
    since 2010 the number of Tigers are rising again in 2016 - 3900 were counted. with Baby Callas it's 3901, my wife and I had 2-3 months the privilege of raising a Baby Tiger.

  27. #27
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    I know somebody who wrote a remarkably large program while not understanding what a breakpoint was, let alone the code involved. I've always been amazed at that program. It wasn't great, in fact it was barely sufficient, but I've never seen more accomplished with less skill than that program. If that guy turned out to have been out-sourcing his own job it would make a whole lot more sense.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  28. #28
    Addicted Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: A few of you need some etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    TA whole lot of us started out when there wasn't an internet to get help from. Yeah, we could copy code...as long as we were willing to type it in ourselves, and we happened to find a book or magazine with some useful code in it.
    Magazines were so cool back in the 80s. Still have fond memories of the Breakout program I found in one mag that I advanced when I was a teen.

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