Windows 10 fixed

[Zvoni]

The way i see it:
Sometime in 2008-2010 in a Microsoft-Office in Redmond:
"Oops, we missed the smartphone-market. How do we get our share from that?"
"Let's invent a completely new User-Interface, so that we are different from that Apple and android-crap."
"Yeah, but a lot of people already have an Apple or Android. How to sway them?"
"Well, with our next Windows-Version (Win8), let's introduce the same User-Interface on the PC's, so people get used to it, so that they want it on their phone, because they are used to it from home or work"

The result: The crapiest User-Interface for PC's in the last 20 years.

Considering, MS Phone has today a market share of 0.1 % (try google with "windows phone market share"),
what did MS accomplish?
Nothing!
Yeah, they have a new UI, so what?
Instead of admitting they missed the smartphone-market and kept improving Windows 7, a lot of people wouldn't be complaining today about Win10.
People are not complaining about what's "under the hood", because 95 % of the people don't have a clue what's going on there, and Win10 might be better than Win7 in a lot of things,
BUT NOT THE UI!

I have to listen to complaints all day.

And something else: You have to differentiate between young people buying their first PC, and the somewhat older generation buying their 4th, 5th, 6th.... PC in the last 20 years (who also have the money to have more than one compared to young people).
I know a lot of people, when Win10 was released who switched to a Mac (and one or two to Linux), because their reason:
"I pay a lot of money for my Computer, and i want it to look like i want, not some idiot in Redmond"

There is kind of a running gag here in Germany (at least among the people i have contact with):
"If you see all those assistants in Win10, you really have to ask yourself, if the americans are just too stupid or too lazy to work their machines as they are supposed to be"

[jmcilhinney]

I know a lot of people, when Win10 was released who switched to a Mac (and one or two to Linux), because their reason:
"I pay a lot of money for my Computer, and i want it to look like i want, not some idiot in Redmond"

Except that the way their computer looked before that was determined by someone in Redmond too. What it actually comes down to is that people don't want change. The way their computer was wasn't necessarily better but it was what they were used to and people generally want things to stay the way they are used to.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

It might sound like I'm being flipper (and I am... a bit)

They call him Flipper, Flipper faster than lightening, No-one you see, is smarter than he !!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Frankly, I feel that the UI for Win10 is a necessary step in the right direction. I realize that it is pretty hard on people to change, but this one is a necessary change, so they need to get used to it.

The reason it is a necessary change is that we are going to a touch-interface world. This is likely to take over the desktop as it has already taken over every single mobile interface in existence. The point has always been to come up with a better user interface than the mouse. The mouse is deficient because it takes the hands off the keyboard, while being an indirect interface. It also happens to be better than any of the alternatives in existence, but that doesn't mean it is good, nor does it mean that it can't be improved on. Nobody uses a mouse for mobile, and pointing devices for laptops usually suck. Most people will go to a mouse for a laptop because they suck less than the alternatives, but that means that the laptop isn't as useful as it could be, since you now need a mousing surface.

So, can we do better? Yes, via touch (and possibly gesture), and we are for mobile. The desktop doesn't support touch so very well largely because we can't reach the screens, or at least can't reach the screens comfortably, but that could end up changing. There are a variety of designs that could replace the keyboard. Whether or not they'd work remains to be seen, but something will, and when that happens, you need an OS that will work for touch.

The best case in point, currently, is the MS Surface. I keep being tempted to get one of the new Surface Pros, except that my older Surface Pro 2 is still an awesome computer...and now the Surface Pro 5 is likely to come out in the spring, so I guess I'll hold off to see what features are offered on that before deciding what to do. The Surface Pro is easier to run as a touch device than with a keyboard, but can be used either way pretty well. I've long felt that the future of computing is a device that we plug in when we get to the office to get a large screen and other peripherals, but which we then unplug to take to meetings, or home, or whatever. The Surface is pretty much that device already, but it can get better if it can get smaller...or lighter...or something. But in any case, for such a device you need a touch friendly OS. Win7 was barely usable for touch interfaces, whereas Win10 was designed much more for that type of interface.

So people need to suck it up and learn something new. The old OS were designed for mouse and keyboard. The future is already arriving, and the future is more than mouse and keyboard.

[sapator]

In a previous conversation in some other thread someone stated that since people use more and more mobiles then the Windows desktop share is degrading rapidly.
So I think in the end, we may end up with some new android - desktop environment that will look like the android mobile - tablet and the people who program it might or might not use .net for it ,if MS supports it. So I think we are closing to the end of windows. I'm not certain but for me it looks like it and it's a matter of time until the first andindows desktop comes along. I've been using MS products for so long so I got a little fed up with them. That is me, other people may adore the products. Currently I'm open on learning an entirely new environment but I would prefer not to use Java for it's development ( ) .
So that's why I've said windows11. A new android will push MS that will be losing popularity to develop something new.
Of course will have to see.

[jmcilhinney]

One thing that bugs me is that people complain about the Windows interface having gone square and flat because they like the old 3D chrome look, yet we are also doing more and more of our work in web sites/applications that have been going square and flat since well before Windows did it and I hear nary a peep about that. There's a reasonable swell of support for touch being added to Mac computers and Apple say they won't, largely because the OS X UI doesn't really work well with touch and Apple are all about how things look so they won't change that for the sake of a better experience. Microsoft are criticised by those who don't want touch for Windows being too much like a phone OS and criticised by those who want to use touch for it not being enough like a phone OS. Microsoft have made some mistakes, no doubt, but they are also victims of their own success to a degree, i.e. their audience is so large and varied that they simply cannot please everyone. One thing that might help is to make Tablet Mode in Windows 10 a bit more like Windows 8/8.1 so the touch experience is a bit better but that still won't quiet a significant segment of the market. Again, Microsoft certainly deserve criticism for various things but I'm also sure that it being cool to knock Microsoft is still a big problem for them.

[Shaggy Hiker]

In a previous conversation in some other thread someone stated that since people use more and more mobiles then the Windows desktop share is degrading rapidly.
So I think in the end, we may end up with some new android - desktop environment that will look like the android mobile - tablet and the people who program it might or might not use .net for it ,if MS supports it. So I think we are closing to the end of windows. I'm not certain but for me it looks like it and it's a matter of time until the first andindows desktop comes along. I've been using MS products for so long so I got a little fed up with them. That is me, other people may adore the products. Currently I'm open on learning an entirely new environment but I would prefer not to use Java for it's development ( ) .
So that's why I've said windows11. A new android will push MS that will be losing popularity to develop something new.
Of course will have to see.

I believe that Android desktops came out several years ago...and fell as flat as a Windows phone.

I don't believe that the desktop is degrading. I don't feel degraded while using one. But on a more serious note, I'm not at all sure that mobile has replaced all that many desktops. It seems more complimentary rather than competitive. I know loads of people who now use mobile, but I don't know anybody who used to use a desktop and doesn't still use a desktop, even if they have a mobile.

In my case, we tried to push mobile into places where it's hard to say it was justified. That experiment is currently failing, in my opinion. Mobile data entry just didn't provide any advantage, so people have gone to writing data on paper (as they always did) and possibly then using the mobile...once they are back somewhere convenient, in which case they could use a laptop just as easily, except that the application won't run on a laptop, currently.

Still, that's just an anecdote and proves nothing. The bottom line is what I said before: I know a lot of people who use mobile, but if they used a desktop before, then they still do. The mobile is an additional item, not a replacement. That makes the statistics looks kind of distorted. Mobiles are rising and spreading. That's true. Desktop sales are flat or declining. That's also true as far as I know. However, the two don't have to be related. I didn't NEED to replace my old Win7 box. It is still running just fine. I simply wanted to build something around an SSD, and decided to upgrade other components at the same time (including going to 64-bit, which the older system was not). Without that decision, I would still be running 32-bit Win7, cause it did all I needed.

Not so long ago, replacing a two year old computer meant getting significantly more features...or maybe a component failed. Now, you get nothing much, and components can last longer, so what is the incentive to replace? That may be the sole reason for the decline of desktop sales, because no other reason is needed.

So, I don't believe the desktop is dead, or even dying. I'd say it has just matured. I don't see Android replacing desktops (have you tried that file system? What a nightmare). Of course, the future is always not quite what we expect.

[TysonLPrice]

They call him Flipper, Flipper faster than lightening, No-one you see, is smarter than he !!

It looks like you changed flippant to flipper on porpoise...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Are you going to give him a cetacean for it?

[TysonLPrice]

Are you going to give him a cetacean for it?

I'll wait and sea...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'll wait and sea...

I wasn't sure if that was meant to be a pun...or was just a fluke.

[passel]

Reminds me of the old, see food diet....

[TysonLPrice]

I wasn't sure if that was meant to be a pun...or was just a fluke.

Holy mackerel...you really can't tell? There is something fishy about that.

[Zvoni]

Frankly, I feel that the UI for Win10 is a necessary step in the right direction. I realize that it is pretty hard on people to change, but this one is a necessary change, so they need to get used to it.

The reason it is a necessary change is that we are going to a touch-interface world. This is likely to take over the desktop as it has already taken over every single mobile interface in existence. The point has always been to come up with a better user interface than the mouse. The mouse is deficient because it takes the hands off the keyboard, while being an indirect interface. It also happens to be better than any of the alternatives in existence, but that doesn't mean it is good, nor does it mean that it can't be improved on. Nobody uses a mouse for mobile, and pointing devices for laptops usually suck. Most people will go to a mouse for a laptop because they suck less than the alternatives, but that means that the laptop isn't as useful as it could be, since you now need a mousing surface.

So, can we do better? Yes, via touch (and possibly gesture), and we are for mobile. The desktop doesn't support touch so very well largely because we can't reach the screens, or at least can't reach the screens comfortably, but that could end up changing. There are a variety of designs that could replace the keyboard. Whether or not they'd work remains to be seen, but something will, and when that happens, you need an OS that will work for touch.

The best case in point, currently, is the MS Surface. I keep being tempted to get one of the new Surface Pros, except that my older Surface Pro 2 is still an awesome computer...and now the Surface Pro 5 is likely to come out in the spring, so I guess I'll hold off to see what features are offered on that before deciding what to do. The Surface Pro is easier to run as a touch device than with a keyboard, but can be used either way pretty well. I've long felt that the future of computing is a device that we plug in when we get to the office to get a large screen and other peripherals, but which we then unplug to take to meetings, or home, or whatever. The Surface is pretty much that device already, but it can get better if it can get smaller...or lighter...or something. But in any case, for such a device you need a touch friendly OS. Win7 was barely usable for touch interfaces, whereas Win10 was designed much more for that type of interface.

So people need to suck it up and learn something new. The old OS were designed for mouse and keyboard. The future is already arriving, and the future is more than mouse and keyboard.

Shaggy,

everything correct you said here.
I agree 100% that touch/gesture-interfaces are the future,

BUT

honestly, who really needs that feature TODAY?
Yes, there will always be people, who claim "FINALLY!",
but they are the minority (and with minority, i mean distinctly below 10 %).
Why not just leave the decision/option to the user?
The Problem IMO is the tightly knit Interface to the core-OS in Windows, contrary to Linux, where the User can choose his preferred Window-Manager.

And what do you know?
By pure chance i witnessed the maintenance of a selling machine (you know those vendor-machines: Put a coin in, make your choice, and a can of coke/a pack of cigarettes comes clattering out), which had such a touchy-feely-Interface. After the service-technician was done, he booted that thing, and color me suprised, when i noticed Linux running on that thing.
Asking him why Linux?
Answer: "Nothing else for our company, which goes out to the clients"

[jmcilhinney]

Asking him why Linux?
Answer:

Because it's free.

[FunkyDexter]

I tried to think of a pun but I floundered.

you're also voicing your opinion that your opinion is the only true opinion

You're right... but also a little unfair. People rarely qualify their opinions, particularly if they feel strongly about something. "Brexit will be great", "Brexit will be a disaster", "Trump's a traitor", "Hilary's a traitor"... it's mostly just a manner of speaking. The "In my opinion" is implicit.

I kinda agree with you because I think that implicit "in my opinion" is often used by politicians, analysts, experts etc. to strengthen a case beyond it's merit and that has led (and continues to lead) to some appalling decision making, but I don't think we'll ever manage to change it in common parlance.

BTW. I went back through the thread to see if I could cite a case of you using it yourself and couldn't find any. You, sir, are annoyingly precise in your wording.



On UI's, I really don't think touch is the future (except for particularly niche adult entertainment sites). So far what we've developed is frankly pretty horrible but, even with improvements, it will continue to suffer from most of the problems a mouse does: it's imprecise and you have to take your hand off the keyboard to use it. Actually, I think the real problem is that we're still tied to the keyboard to generate text which is a massive part of what we do when interfacing with a device. It's certainly the most laborious part of what we do. The big improvement is going to come when we replace the keyboard and that's likely to be speech.

[sapator]

Well as much as I can see most of the younger people are using mobile and PDA , the are not using laptops (for desktops, maybe 1% usage).
So assuming we, the older users, are going to die soon enough, i think we would see a degrade on the desktop

[Zvoni]

The big improvement is going to come when we replace the keyboard and that's likely to be speech.

"Computer! Earl Grey, hot!"
"Are you sure? [Yes], [No], [Maybe]"
"What?!?!"
"Please close all Windows, and Reboot!"

Well as much as I can see most of the younger people are using mobile and PDA , the are not using laptops (for desktops, maybe 1% usage).
So assuming we, the older users, are going to die soon enough, i think we would see a degrade on the desktop

What i said!
It's our generation that has the money (!!) to buy the newest PC (or the second, third....), but this is also the generation,
which has some expectations to functionality, UI and whatnot and/or developed habits from the last 20 years.
Our generation is also the one using computers the most, be it as a developer, an employee at a company (those are the most) and so on.....

Money talks, BS walks!

[Shaggy Hiker]

I tried to think of a pun but I floundered.

We started with mammals, but there just aren't enough, so we moved...inevitably...to fish. Whatever. One man's fish is another man's poisson.

On UI's, I really don't think touch is the future (except for particularly niche adult entertainment sites). So far what we've developed is frankly pretty horrible but, even with improvements, it will continue to suffer from most of the problems a mouse does: it's imprecise and you have to take your hand off the keyboard to use it. Actually, I think the real problem is that we're still tied to the keyboard to generate text which is a massive part of what we do when interfacing with a device. It's certainly the most laborious part of what we do. The big improvement is going to come when we replace the keyboard and that's likely to be speech.

We won't get to speech entry until we end up with a system sufficiently smart that it can deal with the utter crap that we actually say. Our speech is littered with pauses, mistakes, and so on. Turning our literal speech into text would show just how poorly we speak. Typing can be at the speed of thought, as long as you are a good enough typist. No other means of data entry can compete, currently, in both speed AND accuracy. Speech could be faster, but at a cost of accuracy, and editing would prove to be a total nightmare.

On a different note: I do believe that touch is much more here than is realized. I remember that whenever I use my Surface. Of course, I never use it deeply, because...I can't get over the fact that it's just the surface. It's a good surface, you just have to decide how deep the surface goes. So far, it's good for VS, it's good for Office, that's deep enough for me...I just wonder.

[FunkyDexter]

We won't get to speech entry until we end up with a system sufficiently smart that it can deal with the utter crap that we actually say.

Yes and No. It depends on the application.

Realistically, if I were using speech as an interface to visual studio, my expectation would be that it would accept precisely what I said with no interpretation. I would expect to be using a highly formalised form of speech. A few keywords for navigation and Bob's your third cousin. The tech to support this type of interface already exists and it's just waiting for the right folks to wrap it up and enable it. I think this is applicable to an awful lot of the work we currently do with computers, whether it's dictating documents and letters, writing copy or doing data entry into business apps. In essence it's no different to how we interact with computers now - the only that changes is the mechanism.

The hard bit is likely to be casual consumption. I'm thinking the Cortana/Siri stuff that's trying to be all things to all people without requiring the user to be trained. That is seriously hard to crack because that's when you need context and interpretation. Heck, that's the stuff where we make me mistakes interfacing with another human, let alone a computer.

edit> Oh yeah... <something witty about fish.>

[TysonLPrice]

Yes and No. It depends on the application.

Realistically, if I were using speech as an interface to visual studio, my expectation would be that it would accept precisely what I said with no interpretation. I would expect to be using a highly formalised form of speech. A few keywords for navigation and Bob's your third cousin. The tech to support this type of interface already exists and it's just waiting for the right folks to wrap it up and enable it. I think this is applicable to an awful lot of the work we currently do with computers, whether it's dictating documents and letters, writing copy or doing data entry into business apps. In essence it's no different to how we interact with computers now - the only that changes is the mechanism.

The hard bit is likely to be casual consumption. I'm thinking the Cortana/Siri stuff that's trying to be all things to all people without requiring the user to be trained. That is seriously hard to crack because that's when you need context and interpretation. Heck, that's the stuff where we make me mistakes interfacing with another human, let alone a computer.

edit> Oh yeah... <something witty about fish.>

Anyone remember Microsoft rolled out AI software recently that people could converse with? It was shutdown right away because people were tricking it into saying obscene things.

[sapator]

Wouldn't it look peculiar if we started talking to ourselves, on a speech recognition base?
We would look like crazy people. Of course the companies can built booths with on side view glasses so we can program-talk in peace like a piece of talking meat.
That of course if the one side glass looks in our way not the opposite. (Oh mam look at the crazy man cursing to the computed and screaming DEBUG!DEBUG!)

[TysonLPrice]

Most of my Google searches are from asking the question versus keying it in. It is pretty accurate.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Anyone remember Microsoft rolled out AI software recently that people could converse with? It was shutdown right away because people were tricking it into saying obscene things.

I wouldn't be tricking it. There would be no trick involved.

If I were to use voice recognition with Visual Studio, I would expect that most of my 'variables' would appear as a string of asterisks if I were to write them to this forum. I'm not typically very profane, but when I'm writing code the vocabulary of my inner dialog tends to be casually colorful. Not angry, mind you, just peppered with salty words, perhaps because I'm well seasoned, or perhaps because I tend to spice up my thoughts with thymely, or sage, observations.

Still, I expect that I can type code in VS (in great part helped by intellisense) faster than I would be able to speak. I also think that we use different parts of our brain for verbal and non-verbal communication such that thinking and speaking don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, but may compete for bandwidth in our brains. In other words, I'm not sure that we'd be able to code effectively if we had to put the code into words. At the very least, I don't believe that it is a given that we'd be effective, so I'd want to see some test results.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Wouldn't it look peculiar if we started talking to ourselves, on a speech recognition base?
We would look like crazy people. Of course the companies can built booths with on side view glasses so we can program-talk in peace like a piece of talking meat.
That of course if the one side glass looks in our way not the opposite. (Oh mam look at the crazy man cursing to the computed and screaming DEBUG!DEBUG!)

That point makes sense, but is also clearly wrong. It used to be that a person walking down the street carrying on a conversation with nobody was considered crazy. These days, it's just Bluetooth.

In short: If it worked, we'd all get so used to it so fast that nobody would think anything of it within a month.

[FunkyDexter]

It used to be that a person walking down the street carrying on a conversation with nobody was considered crazy

The local junky hangout is just round the corner from the office I'm currently working in. Sometime that person is still crazy. I have literally seen a man wearing a tin foil hat. And I'm literally using literally literally.

just peppered with salty words, perhaps because I'm well seasoned, or perhaps because I tend to spice up my thoughts with thymely, or sage, observations.

Some people reckon you'll run out of puns one day but oregano.

[Zvoni]

It used to be that a person walking down the street carrying on a conversation with nobody was considered crazy.

Uh? Have you forgotten Pokemon Go?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Uh? Have you forgotten Pokemon Go?

I try and I try, but no, I have not yet been able to.

Isn't there a new one out now based on The Walking Dead? I saw some ad for such a game a few days ago, though I wasn't sure if it was real or not.

[dilettante]

Walking Dead? Aww, leave the poor Win7 holdouts alone. They only gave up WinXP a year ago and Win95 two years before that.

[Lord Orwell]

I've liked Windows 10 for the most part. My only complaint has been with sharing of files and folders among my private network, other than that everything is really nice.

i agree. I have four computers that at one time or another are all connected to the same network, and the whole purpose of one of them is simply to give a fast virtual desktop to an ancient laptop. It doesn't show up on the network at all. I had to install a virtual desktop client from the app store to be able to find it. However it WAS showing up on the network and now it's not. And it's LITERALLY a server (xeon w/24gb ram). Every computer has win 10. One has home, one has European windows N. the server has education edition, the laptop has pro. Some show up on the network and some don't and it's inconsistent about which ones and when. Very frustrating.

[Lord Orwell]

there's a walking dead ar app for photos. the other big pokemon-like game is Jurassic world.

[sapator]

I'm so glad I am not using w10!
Admins where running high and low to prevent an auto update patch from being passed to w10 PC's. Seems that it deleted the documents folder of the PC!
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...2-caa4caa6d4e1

[Shaggy Hiker]

I didn't lose any files, but perhaps I didn't get the update. It's been pulled. Maybe it got pulled before it got pushed?

Actually, I wouldn't have lost any files because it only affected a small number of people who were using Known File Redirect. I'm not, so that wasn't an issue. However, the other features (it was a faulty feature that messed with some KFR files) are largely about security against known and potential exploits. There are plenty of those in every operating system, so as long as they are being updated, that's a good thing.

Actually, there probably are no security holes if you go back far enough. Apple desktop OS has few exploits because they have such a trivial market share that nobody is bothering to look. Viruses don't spread well, and tend to die out, if the population is small and widely dispersed. So, to follow that example, you could probably avoid most hacks by running Win95, and ALL of them by going back to Windows 3.1. You'd never have to worry about updates, either.

Besides, I have a slide rule on the bedside table.

[dilettante]

I updated one machine and have had no issues aside from those I have come to expect with two very old products. Just reapply my two fixes and I'm good to go.

No files lost.

From what they have published about this it only applies to people who try to get "clever" with Known Folder Redirection. This probably only happens where you have out of control corporate box jockeys, you are a victim of SSD boot drives and think you are clever, or you fell for the OneDrive medicine show.

I find nothing to suggest security issues are involved at all. What did I miss?

This would explain why it impacts so few users, but hits the kind of users who tend to be the noisiest.

See Updated version of Windows 10 October 2018 Update released to Windows Insiders. They might have the answer but they could still be wrong.

[DEXWERX]

Yup - They're trying to fix the screwed up OneDrive implementation and instead screwed it up worse... LOL.

The OneDrive issue is beyond dumb... I've got duplicate file trees now. Re-Installing makes it worse, because now it shows the duplicate trees that were previously redirected.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yup - They're trying to fix the screwed up OneDrive implementation and instead screwed it up worse... LOL.

The OneDrive issue is beyond dumb... I've got duplicate file trees now. Re-Installing makes it worse, because now it shows the duplicate trees that were previously redirected.

Sounds like you are building a forest, but can't see it for the trees. OneDrive might be the root of the matter, but I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb to say that we'll make puns of your trees till we get board with it.

[sapator]

I doesn't really matter how many it affected and we can't be sure as they have pulled the update. It doesn't also matter that some did not get affected. I mean imagine if everyone where affected. I would just shown here naked down a belly dance as this would have been the end for MS.
The problem here is that an update on a paid program from a well established company is deleting your files and may very important files. It may position up there with Samsung pads melting after usage but unfortunately there is no physical windows 10 thing to blow up so we can really enjoy it. Sure they offered a file recover software that (according to one of our admins, in a humors way), "as soon as the problem is detected you have to shutdown your computer, disconnect the disk drive, close the light and start praying that important file could be recovered". So anyhow I'm not a lower but i don't think on the terms of the updates says that you are using it by your responsibility or that the update could erase your files. I mean would this be eligible for a lawsuit again microsoft? Again i don't know if there are terms that state what I've written and if they do they saw a company in trance.

[jdc2000]

A Windows (or other OS) "update" should NEVER delete user files, period. That should be left up to the user.

Not only did they release the update with a major bug, they were told about it by their unpaid beta testers and they ignored the reports.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/window...ays-microsoft/

https://www.zdnet.com/article/micros...-new-features/

https://www.zdnet.com/article/opinio...r-is-too-many/

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, you sure don't want data loss, but the scenario that was causing the problem was vanishingly rare, so the MS estimate of 0.01% of users sounds about right. I hadn't even heard about, nor have I ever had any use for, the feature at the root of the problem. Therefore, I'm not sure that something like this can be avoided unless you decide to never update, which doesn't seem like a particularly sound strategy, considering how many hacking attempts there are.

[dilettante]

Oh yeah, here's another problem. VB6 Sample based on an old KB article:

   Dim rs As New ADODB.Recordset
   Dim rsCh As ADODB.Recordset
   Dim rsGrndCh As ADODB.Recordset

   rs.ActiveConnection = "provider=msdatashape;data provider=none;"

   rs.Open " SHAPE APPEND new adInteger As PID, " & _
         " New adVarChar(10) As StudentName, " & _
         "((SHAPE APPEND new adInteger As ChID, " & _
         " New adVarChar(10) As Course, " & _
         "((SHAPE APPEND new adInteger As GrndChID, " & _
         " New adBSTR As Description) RELATE " & _
         " ChID TO GrndChID) As GrandChild) RELATE PID TO ChID) " & _
         "AS Child", , adOpenStatic, adLockOptimistic

    ' Add a sample record in the parent recordset
    rs.AddNew Array("PID", "StudentName"), Array(1, "Jim Smith")

    ' Now add a two sample child records related to the original
    ' parent's record
    Set rsCh = rs("Child").Value
    For i = 0 To 1
       rsCh.AddNew Array("ChID", "Course"), Array(1, "Course #1" & i)

       ' Now add two sample Grand-child records for each child record
       Set rsGrndCh = rsCh("GrandChild").Value
       For j = 1 To 2
          rsGrndCh.AddNew Array("GrndChID", "Description"), _
                Array(i, "Description" & Str(j))
       Next
    Next

    Set MSH1.DataSource = rs

MSH1 is a Hierarchical FlexGrid.

This worked fine before the update, now it fails with:

Length of NEW column Course cannot be zero.

Even though it was specified as 10, not 0.