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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:44 AM
#41
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
It seems that quality may mean different things to different people. In my view quality is more reflected by functionality, performance, stability and ease of use. Pretty is nice but does not enter into the equation. It seems that many people mistake pretty for quality. Lots of horribly inefficient but pretty programs out there.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:55 AM
#42
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by Arnoutdv
When I started using RAD like VB5/6 it was possible to focus more on the functionality instead spending days on a simple or shiny UI.
I also pay attention to the functionality of the software, and the functionality of my software is never weaker than the competition.
Originally Posted by Arnoutdv
I use a lot of external (commercial) ActiveX controls, like controls from ComponentOne and CodeJock.
Too many heavyweight business controls can significantly reduce the quality of the software. So I only used one commercial control FarpointSpread.
Originally Posted by Arnoutdv
Then start by writing them down...
In the past, you once asked me why you have given the answer to the question but I never accept it. My reply to you was that I hope to find the best solution.
I haven't raised a lot of complicated questions in vbFourms because I know that no one could give me the answer. Those who are addicted to old technology can't give the answer I need (except The Trick).
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 20th, 2018 at 08:24 AM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:59 AM
#43
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
You always use very outdated technology (I can fully understand this, after all, your software has been used for 35 years), you always adopt a very conservative solution, so I don't think you have a high requirements for the quality of the software. At least do not meet my requirements, or do not meet the requirements of commercial software.
Your definition of high requirements doesn't quite fit with reality. Unfortunately you lack a lot of perspective - I'm assuming you have not worked in too many fields or for large companies? Not meaning this in a disrespectful way at all. For some perspective - the most advanced software out there (for example software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet) is written using Fortran, some of which uses code almost as old as I am. The requirements of which are stablity, high throughput, and availability - all paramount to functioning correctly.
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Note: The commercial software I mentioned here refers to the general software that is publicly sold and may have many competitors and has been tested by the market, it is not a customized software for some special users.
Again - that must be your own definition of what commercial software is. Pretty sure Elroy wouldn't have made a living creating/supporting software that wasn't "commercial". Maybe you mean software for consumers? In which case I can assure you, consumer software doesn't have nearly as "high" requirements as you think, and actually haven't changed in the last 35 years.
I'm glad you pointed out your own fanaticism towards RC5. You've been entirely honest with your perspective - although I think a bit misguided. It's also colored your perception of peoples attitudes towards Olaf/RC5. Elroy for example has been posting many threads related to using newer technologies lately, yet you seem to think his barring of RC5 means the opposite.
Abre los ojos
My 2C anyway.
Last edited by DEXWERX; Aug 20th, 2018 at 08:02 AM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:14 AM
#44
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Those who are addicted to old technology can't give the answer I need (except The Trick).
This to me just seems funny considering that you are using old technology and posting in a forum specifically for old technology.
As for your earlier question about the best VB software we have used, for me it is without a doubt Active Reports. A very powerful and easy to use reporting tool that pretty much blows away every other such tool I have tried. Crystal is much better known but AR is far better and much easier to use for my purposes.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:22 AM
#45
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Your definition of high requirements doesn't quite fit with reality. Unfortunately you lack a lot of perspective - I'm assuming you have not worked in too many fields or for large companies? Not meaning this in a disrespectful way at all. For some perspective - the most advanced software out there (for example software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet) is written using Fortran, some of which uses code almost as old as I am. The requirements of which are stablity, high throughput, and availability - all paramount to functioning correctly.
Didn't you notice that I was talking about Windows desktop software?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Again - that must be your own definition of what commercial software is. Pretty sure Elroy wouldn't have made a living creating/supporting software that wasn't "commercial". Maybe you mean software for consumers? In which case I can assure you, consumer software doesn't have nearly as "high" requirements as you think, and actually haven't changed in the last 35 years.
I also want to assure you that consumer software may be much more complicated than you might think. I don't think anyone who uses Fortran to develop the software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet can easily develop PhotoShop or SAP.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
I'm glad you pointed out your own fanaticism towards RC5. You've been entirely honest with your perspective - although I think a bit misguided. It's also colored your perception of peoples attitudes towards Olaf/RC5. Elroy for example has been posting many threads related to using newer technologies lately, yet you seem to think his barring of RC5 means the opposite.
I never thought that the threads that Elroy posted used new technology, and didn't think it was the best solution. More than 20 years ago, each of our big projects was mixed development using VC and VB. Encapsulating a C library is a very common task.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:25 AM
#46
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
What's new technology in RC5? It's just an external library...
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:32 AM
#47
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DataMiser
This to me just seems funny considering that you are using old technology and posting in a forum specifically for old technology.
As for your earlier question about the best VB software we have used, for me it is without a doubt Active Reports. A very powerful and easy to use reporting tool that pretty much blows away every other such tool I have tried. Crystal is much better known but AR is far better and much easier to use for my purposes.
IMO, Active Report is just a small software. Many years ago, we used Crystal, but its function is so weak and it can't be horizontally paginated when printing, so we wrote a Report instead of it with VC++. Of course, Crystal is very powerful now, but for me, it's still not worth mentioning.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:47 AM
#48
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
So I only used one commercial control FarpointSpread.
Wait, why? These bad external dependencies only degrade the quality of your applications.
Besides couple of months ago you said in these same forums that your spread replacement control is almost complete. What happened? Olaf understands nothing about haiku?
cheers,
</wqw>
Last edited by wqweto; Aug 20th, 2018 at 08:54 AM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 09:05 AM
#49
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
I also want to assure you that consumer software may be much more complicated than you might think. I don't think anyone who uses Fortran to develop the software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet can easily develop PhotoShop or SAP.
I get why others think your simplistic viewpoint seems insulting.
Those same developers you are talking about who use Fortran, also know C/C++/C#/VB.NET/Korn Shell/SQL/Assembly and all the custom Variants of these languages. To think these developers (Who typically have advanced engineering degrees) don't have the ability to write a Photoshop or a SAP is beyond ridiculous.... sorry mate, but "you've done lost your marbles!" Also those people get paid a lot more than Photoshop developers.
Also you _must_ be trolling by saying you're talking about Windows Desktop software, and then mentioning SAP. SAP... is a glorified database. Please, I would love to know what new technology you think exists in PS or SAP.
It seems a bit childish to equate a skinned GUI with high technology, but that really seems like what you're promoting. (in case your wondering why others keep commenting on that bit)
Last edited by DEXWERX; Aug 20th, 2018 at 11:05 AM.
Reason: your -> you're
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Aug 20th, 2018, 09:23 AM
#50
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by wqweto
Wait, why? These bad external dependencies only degrade the quality of your applications.
Besides couple of months ago you said in these same forums that your spread replacement control is almost complete. What happened? Olaf understands nothing about haiku?
cheers,
</wqw>
Yeah, I used FarpointSpread for many years, but two months ago, I replaced FapointSpread with my own Spread. My Spread has implemented 70% of FapointSpread functionality(in fact, 30% of the functionality has been able to meet my current project needs). If I want, I can achieve 150% of FapointSpread functionality.
Edit:
Now, except for RC5, my software has no other third-party components and no Microsoft CommonControls.
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 20th, 2018 at 08:28 PM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 10:03 AM
#51
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
@Shaggy Hiker:
Shaggy Hiker, I just want to ask you a question: What is the best VB6 software you have ever seen?
I pay no attention to what language a program is written in. If it works well, then it works well. That's all that matters to me, so I often don't know what language was used. In some cases, such as Paint.NET, I can certainly make a pretty good guess as to what was used, but generally that isn't possible.
Some programs look beautiful. Those would not have been written by me, that's for sure. A program written by me will look either drab or garish. I learned a very long time back that I have no artistic sense whatsoever. For that reason, I often work with standard Windows gray, but in bright environments, I also get to high-contrast, which means bright primary colors. The reason I mention this is because a good looking program generally has somebody with artistic talent on the UI design team. The talent required for icons is not the same as that required for backgrounds, and neither of those are the same as the talent required for organization and flow (I have some of the latter). So, if you like the look and feel of some program, that's a testament to the skill of the person who created the design...it really says nothing much about the program.
In general, I agree with those who talk about reliability and usability as being the highest standards for a program. Programs that have been around for a long time tend to be more reliable and more usable, simply because problems have been worked out over time. That doesn't always work out, though, cause sometimes a program turns into such a mass of spaghetti code that changes make it worse rather than better (see Apple OS 6, 7...and what would have been 8). Beauty in a program has nothing much to do with modernity or quality, it is just artistic sense.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Aug 20th, 2018, 10:18 AM
#52
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
You always use very outdated technology (I can fully understand this, after all, your software has been used for 35 years), you always adopt a very conservative solution, so I don't think you have a high requirements for the quality of the software. At least do not meet my requirements, or do not meet the requirements of commercial software.
Say dreammanor, I hate to tell you but all of us in this thread are using outdated technology (i.e., VB6). And I'm a bit confused. We're talking about longevity and vitality of software, but I get dissed for having software that's been around for 35 years?
Truth be told though, the beginnings of my current major project date back to 1999, but there are certainly remnants of procedures that have been copied forward from the early 1980s. My first major software success was an accounting package targeted to architects and engineers. My undergraduate degree is in accounting, with honors, and straight A's in every accounting class I ever took. We had success all over the USA, Canada, and in spotted other countries. I was even flown to Kuwait (before the wars) to make an installation in the Kuwaiti Engineering Office.
However, all of that was well before VB. And I sold my interest out in that software company just as VB was making the scene. But we did our best to stay up-to-date with the latest software technology, latest PDS-Basic version, interfaces with magnetic check-writing equipment, etc.
I picked up my PhD and then went to work in the medical field (pediatric orthopedic). That's where I got involved in gait (walking) analysis, and was given the opportunity to write software to assist with that. In 1999, VB6 seemed like the perfect solution. It was what I considered a RAD system, and it was the latest thing.
Personally, I still think it's criminal what Microsoft did to the VB6 community by abandoning it. It was the first time they didn't provide a reasonable upgrade path for the language. That's why these forums have the activity they do ... we're all stuck.
Now, I'm sorry you feel compelled to promote the idea that I don't write high quality software. IMHO, that's just childish lashing out, because I can't believe that you have any direct experience with my software. If you do, I'd love to hear about it, and know you you really are. Why would you promote such an idea with no understanding of what my software even is?
Also, we have a different approach and philosophy about what third-party-software we're willing to work with. You're willing to use small-business closed-source software, and I'm not. In fact, I'm really not willing to work with any closed-source software other than software from Microsoft. Now, that's just a difference in opinion, and, again IMHO, nothing to get upset about. Also, just to say it, I do think Olaf has been somewhat disingenuous about being open-source. And clearly he doesn't. But that's been well discussed elsewhere. Also, the whole issue is moot because I don't think any of us are going to pursue it one-way-or-another. We just each have to make our own decisions on whether, as a closed-source option, RC5 would be of use to us.
Also, Olaf and I will probably continue to disagree about that, but that doesn't mean we have to disagree about everything else.
I suppose, fortunately, I don't need your approval to carry on. I will admit that it's somewhat upsetting that you've chosen to just lash out at me when you really know very little about me. And I know that any software you've used of mine is totally open-source, so you've had every opportunity to think/work through it and make sure it's doing what you'd like. In fact, I'd encourage you to do that with any procedures you grab in these forms. I know I do. I suppose there are one-or-two cases where I've just scanned through things (such as wqweto's zip procedures), but that's the exception rather than the rule.
Dreammanor, I'll be honest. In the thread (still open) where we're trying to get an open-source version of Cairo going for VB6, I felt that you were getting angry with me, and it's obviously carrying over to this thread. However, I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet, and just carry on as best we can. In the end, that's all we can do anyway. Even with the best of us, we can always find some facet of personalities that'll rub us the wrong way. I think that's called "life".
Dreammanor, you take care.
All The Best,
Elroy
Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. To all, peace and happiness.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 10:26 AM
#53
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by Elroy
and in spotted other countries.
A pox on your spotted countries.
I'm also tempted to make a pun about your gait analysis, but here in the west, making fun of gaits wouldn't be in stile. (that pun might be a bit out of range for this site, so if you're on the fence about that one...I still won't explain it.)
Still, that pretty much reinforces what I was getting at: The quality of the software has nothing much to do with the language it is written in, it comes down to the mind behind it, the creativity of that mind, and not a whole lot more.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Aug 20th, 2018, 11:08 AM
#54
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'm also tempted to make a pun about your gait analysis, but here in the west, making fun of gaits wouldn't be in stile. (that pun might be a bit out of range for this site, so if you're on the fence about that one...I still won't explain it.)
You could say he talks the walk.
-tg
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Aug 20th, 2018, 11:26 AM
#55
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
*laughs and shakes head*
Stile. I had to look that one up. We do have running, stair-step, and even pitching protocols. We'll have to work on a stile protocol.
Not sure what "normal" would be though. *laughs* With all the protocols, we always have to develop a database of "typical healthy behavior". What's the "typical" way that people climb a fence? Shaggy, I'll let you work that one out for us.
Y'all Take Care,
Elroy
Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. To all, peace and happiness.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 01:05 PM
#56
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Weird, but I suppose I'm just old. Were you really never exposed to things like:
There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile.
He found a crooked sixpence upon a crooked stile.
He bought a crooked cat, which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a crooked little house.
Again, perhaps it was just me but those things prompted questions and in this case all of them could be answered by the adults around me. As the oldest of 7 kids I had ample opportunity to pass the knowledge on, which helped reinforce it for me.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 02:58 PM
#57
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
I'm old enough to have forgotten about that.
Most of the east is unfenced, these days. Stiles have gone out of style.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Aug 20th, 2018, 04:54 PM
#58
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
As for RC5, I do not understand why so much aversion on the part of some. Just because it's not open-source. Is this really so important?
Rather than using it, they follow the most convoluted paths possible to obtain similar results..
Strange world.
... and they call the ones who use it "RC5-fanatics" (in a derogatory way)
In general, I notice that everyone here follows his own way, maybe me too, and maybe this is normal.
However, one thing that saddens me is that the forum seems to go in a direction where everyone is interested in increasing their self ego, to show others their skills, rather than to be a place for mutual exchange/help. I hope I'm wrong.
Speaking of new things, I wonder why here there is nobody interested in artificial intelligence, such as Neural Network, or Convolutional Neural Network, Deep Learning.
... in the last few years there have been giant steps in this field. It has so many applications. (The Future [almost now], they say)
Perhaps VB6 is inadequate for this.
anyway, I prefer to pose(myself) with a novice attitude. because "I know that I do not know". Socrates.
grant me this digression
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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:33 PM
#59
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by reexre
However, one thing that saddens me is that the forum seems to go in a direction where everyone is interested in increasing their self ego, to show others their skills, rather than to be a place for mutual exchange/help. I hope I'm wrong.
Get used to it. This forum is primarily for asking questions and getting answers. Studies have shown that answering questions tends to provide a boost to the person who answers, but less so for the person receiving the advice. In other words, we very well may answer questions more for our own benefit than the benefit of the person asking the question. Nonetheless, that does make the forum a beneficial place.
I was very much into AI at one point, but came to a cross roads, and opted for a different path. What I was working on was interesting, but unlikely to be of much use in the field. At the same time, I had a second project that was also interesting and would likely be valuable. I opted to follow the second project, and left AI behind. A big part of that decision was that AI is moving so fast that a hobbyist is unlikely to do anything useful. Furthermore, it is moving heavily into GPU processing, which one person in this thread said that VB6 can't do. If you can run a neural net on a GPU, you'd be crazy not to, due to the power of GPU units these days, so if VB6 can't do it, then VB6 is not the language to do anything serious in cutting edge neural networks. There is talk of .NET doing that, but I haven't paid any attention to that.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:46 PM
#60
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I pay no attention to what language a program is written in. If it works well, then it works well. That's all that matters to me, so I often don't know what language was used. In some cases, such as Paint.NET, I can certainly make a pretty good guess as to what was used, but generally that isn't possible.
Some programs look beautiful. Those would not have been written by me, that's for sure. A program written by me will look either drab or garish. I learned a very long time back that I have no artistic sense whatsoever. For that reason, I often work with standard Windows gray, but in bright environments, I also get to high-contrast, which means bright primary colors. The reason I mention this is because a good looking program generally has somebody with artistic talent on the UI design team. The talent required for icons is not the same as that required for backgrounds, and neither of those are the same as the talent required for organization and flow (I have some of the latter). So, if you like the look and feel of some program, that's a testament to the skill of the person who created the design...it really says nothing much about the program.
In general, I agree with those who talk about reliability and usability as being the highest standards for a program. Programs that have been around for a long time tend to be more reliable and more usable, simply because problems have been worked out over time. That doesn't always work out, though, cause sometimes a program turns into such a mass of spaghetti code that changes make it worse rather than better (see Apple OS 6, 7...and what would have been 8). Beauty in a program has nothing much to do with modernity or quality, it is just artistic sense.
I've never said that the only standard for "high quality" software is the UI. I certainly know that every language can write good software. But why should I emphasize that it was written by VB6? Because this is vbForums, because I want to compare the best VB6 software with the other best software written in other languages.
Is RC5 just used to write UI? The function of RC5 is far beyond the imagination of many people. I've used many of the features of RC5 and I've seen many examples of RC5.Cairo, but I have not used Cairo in my program because the UI of my software is simple and flat. Acqua-Button is a component of a Form designer I developed 10 years ago. I just use it as an example to illustrate that RC5 can save us a lot of work.
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Still, that pretty much reinforces what I was getting at: The quality of the software has nothing much to do with the language it is written in, it comes down to the mind behind it, the creativity of that mind, and not a whole lot more.
I certainly know this, but do you think this forum is a place to discuss ideas and creativity?
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 20th, 2018 at 08:21 PM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 07:58 PM
#61
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by Elroy
Say dreammanor, I hate to tell you but all of us in this thread are using outdated technology (i.e., VB6). And I'm a bit confused. We're talking about longevity and vitality of software, but I get dissed for having software that's been around for 35 years?
Truth be told though, the beginnings of my current major project date back to 1999, but there are certainly remnants of procedures that have been copied forward from the early 1980s. My first major software success was an accounting package targeted to architects and engineers. My undergraduate degree is in accounting, with honors, and straight A's in every accounting class I ever took. We had success all over the USA, Canada, and in spotted other countries. I was even flown to Kuwait (before the wars) to make an installation in the Kuwaiti Engineering Office.
However, all of that was well before VB. And I sold my interest out in that software company just as VB was making the scene. But we did our best to stay up-to-date with the latest software technology, latest PDS-Basic version, interfaces with magnetic check-writing equipment, etc.
I picked up my PhD and then went to work in the medical field (pediatric orthopedic). That's where I got involved in gait (walking) analysis, and was given the opportunity to write software to assist with that. In 1999, VB6 seemed like the perfect solution. It was what I considered a RAD system, and it was the latest thing.
Personally, I still think it's criminal what Microsoft did to the VB6 community by abandoning it. It was the first time they didn't provide a reasonable upgrade path for the language. That's why these forums have the activity they do ... we're all stuck.
Now, I'm sorry you feel compelled to promote the idea that I don't write high quality software. IMHO, that's just childish lashing out, because I can't believe that you have any direct experience with my software. If you do, I'd love to hear about it, and know you you really are. Why would you promote such an idea with no understanding of what my software even is?
Also, we have a different approach and philosophy about what third-party-software we're willing to work with. You're willing to use small-business closed-source software, and I'm not. In fact, I'm really not willing to work with any closed-source software other than software from Microsoft. Now, that's just a difference in opinion, and, again IMHO, nothing to get upset about. Also, just to say it, I do think Olaf has been somewhat disingenuous about being open-source. And clearly he doesn't. But that's been well discussed elsewhere. Also, the whole issue is moot because I don't think any of us are going to pursue it one-way-or-another. We just each have to make our own decisions on whether, as a closed-source option, RC5 would be of use to us.
Also, Olaf and I will probably continue to disagree about that, but that doesn't mean we have to disagree about everything else.
I suppose, fortunately, I don't need your approval to carry on. I will admit that it's somewhat upsetting that you've chosen to just lash out at me when you really know very little about me. And I know that any software you've used of mine is totally open-source, so you've had every opportunity to think/work through it and make sure it's doing what you'd like. In fact, I'd encourage you to do that with any procedures you grab in these forms. I know I do. I suppose there are one-or-two cases where I've just scanned through things (such as wqweto's zip procedures), but that's the exception rather than the rule.
Dreammanor, I'll be honest. In the thread (still open) where we're trying to get an open-source version of Cairo going for VB6, I felt that you were getting angry with me, and it's obviously carrying over to this thread. However, I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet, and just carry on as best we can. In the end, that's all we can do anyway. Even with the best of us, we can always find some facet of personalities that'll rub us the wrong way. I think that's called "life".
Dreammanor, you take care.
All The Best,
Elroy
Elroy, some of your personal experiences I knew before, because I've seen almost all of your posts for nearly 3 years. I'm grateful and admired for any enthusiastic people on this forum, especially you and dilettante. In fact, I don't dislike old technology at all, but when you keep rejecting new technologies, I think you have changed from positive energy to negative energy.
Why do I only blame you? Because in the thread about Cairo, your attitude is extremely bad, extremely rude, you turned from a gentleman into an angry person, a rude person and a conservative.
My point is clear: this is a public forum. Everyone has the right and freedom to propose their own solutions. You can't rudely prevent others from publishing their own solutions when it is not what you want.
Elroy, You have replied to many of my questions, although I have never used your solution, but I thank you for every reply. Why do you want to stop others rudely? Especially a person with much more programming knowledge than you.
You have been developing for many years, but you also undertake a lot of other work, programming may be just your hobby. But Olaf is a professional developer and technical expert. Professional developers have different understandings of technology and products than amateurs. The Trick just uses programming as a hobby, but The Trick is a genius.
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 08:15 AM.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:15 PM
#62
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dilettante
Weird, but I suppose I'm just old. Were you really never exposed to things like:
Again, perhaps it was just me but those things prompted questions and in this case all of them could be answered by the adults around me. As the oldest of 7 kids I had ample opportunity to pass the knowledge on, which helped reinforce it for me.
Although I only used your TOM in a temporary little software written for my daughter, I deeply admire your profound knowledge. In the past, when you ridiculed other people (including me), I just treated you as a occasional naughty old child. I'll always admire your enthusiasm and selfless dedication. I never hate you. I respect you from my heart.
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Aug 20th, 2018, 08:47 PM
#63
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
I get why others think your simplistic viewpoint seems insulting.
Those same developers you are talking about who use Fortran, also know C/C++/C#/VB.NET/Korn Shell/SQL/Assembly and all the custom Variants of these languages. To think these developers (Who typically have advanced engineering degrees) don't have the ability to write a Photoshop or a SAP is beyond ridiculous.... sorry mate, but "you've done lost your marbles!" Also those people get paid a lot more than Photoshop developers.
Also you _must_ be trolling by saying you're talking about Windows Desktop software, and then mentioning SAP. SAP... is a glorified database. Please, I would love to know what new technology you think exists in PS or SAP.
It seems a bit childish to equate a skinned GUI with high technology, but that really seems like what you're promoting. (in case your wondering why others keep commenting on that bit)
DEXWERX, My original words are:
I also want to assure you that consumer software may be much more complicated than you might think. I don't think anyone who uses Fortran to develop the software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet can easily develop PhotoShop or SAP。
You've developed many new meanings from my comments. Do I equate a skinned GUI with high technology? Do you think that I'm so naive?
I also used Fortran, and also knew C/C++/C#/VB.NET/Delphi/Java/SQL/VBA/Assembly/Python/Golang. In addition, I don't know that SAP is just a database.
I now understand why you and Olaf have different opinions on "License".
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 12:20 AM.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 12:16 AM
#64
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
My English is not good, I don't know "new (I mean newer) technology" is equivalent to "high technology", "high quality" is equivalent to "high technology" or "beautiful UI"
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Aug 21st, 2018, 03:23 AM
#65
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by reexre
... and they call the ones who use it "RC5-fanatics" (in a derogatory way)
Link or didn't happen.
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Why do I only attack you? Because in the thread about Cairo, your attitude is extremely bad, extremely rude, you turned from a gentleman into an angry person, a rude person and a conservative.
Link or didn't happen.
---
@dreammanor: I'm wondering what gives you right to attack people here? Admitting to selectively picking Elroy being attacked is ban-worthy.
cheers,
</wqw>
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Aug 21st, 2018, 06:22 AM
#66
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
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Aug 21st, 2018, 07:55 AM
#67
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by wqweto
@dreammanor: I'm wondering what gives you right to attack people here? Admitting to selectively picking Elroy being attacked is ban-worthy.
Sorry, I have no right to attack anyone. The word "attack" is not accurate and should be changed to "blame"
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 08:23 AM.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 08:15 AM
#68
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Why do I only attack you? Because in the thread about Cairo, your attitude is extremely bad, extremely rude, you turned from a gentleman into an angry person, a rude person and a conservative.
...
You have been developing for many years, but you also undertake a lot of other work, programming may be just your hobby.
Hmmm, I didn't know I was angry. Maybe disappointed but not angry. And a conservative? *laughs* We truly should keep politics out of these forums, but Dreammanor, please believe me that you don't know me. Regarding the rest of that first statement, I think I'll leave it be.
Hmmm, "programming may just be my hobby?" It's sure never felt that way. I was the head of the programming and development department and owned 50% of my own company for 14 years. And all major programming tasks fell to me to get done. Yeah, I've studied other things, and I probably lean more strongly to "end user applications" than some on here. But personally, I think that's the nature of VB6 (and really all of VB). A programming language all by itself is just a tool. And tools are useless unless you want/need to "build" something with them. So yeah, I'm pretty good at statistics, linear algebra, orthopedic anatomy, motion capture technology, oxygen consumption technology, precise floor pressure/force technology, and general physics. But I've learned about each and every one of those (maybe with the partial exception of statistics) because I had to to build some end-user program (typically in VB6).
And, as another point, all my kids are grown now, but I've done the Boy Scouts thing (oldest was Eagle Scout), soccer coach (for 8 seasons), never missed a school concert or gymnastics performance, camped all over the country, etcetera. However, truth be told, (just being honest with myself, and I'd give my life without hesitation for any of my kids), my first love is programming. Even when I'm procrastinating some big programming job, I turn to other programming tasks (for the last few years, sometimes things here in this forum). There's something quite elegant, fascinating, and alluring to me about being able to make computers do things. When I'm "sizing up" another programmer, one of the first things I do is try to decide if programming is "work" or "joy" for them. If I come down on the side of "work", I'll admit that I don't see them in quite as positive a light (as a programmer) as if I come down on the side of "joy" (and that probably is a fault in me).
And dreammanor? Have I ever challenged you? If not, isn't Olaf more than capable for taking care of himself?
Well hey (to all). This has definitely been a strange thread. However, at this point, I think it's probably best if I bow out of it. It's become confusing as to what I'm doing in this thread anyway, or even what the thread is about.
Y'all Take Care,
Elroy
Last edited by Elroy; Aug 21st, 2018 at 08:42 AM.
Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. To all, peace and happiness.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 08:32 AM
#69
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Hi Elroy, thank you for your Reply.
My project has been completed, this may be my last VB6 desktop project. My future work mainly turns to Web-apps and Mobile-Apps. I originally planned to use VB6 to complete Web-apps and Mobile-Apps, but I'd like to try to do the rest with Golang.
I'll not reply to this thread. On the one hand, it's already far away from "PhotoShop". On the other hand, what I want to say is already finished.
Take care.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 09:06 AM
#70
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by dreammanor
DEXWERX, My original words are:
I also want to assure you that consumer software may be much more complicated than you might think. I don't think anyone who uses Fortran to develop the software that controls and simulates real-time electric grids covering the entire planet can easily develop PhotoShop or SAP。
You've developed many new meanings from my comments. Do I equate a skinned GUI with high technology? Do you think that I'm so naive?
I didn't originally. I simply pointed out why what you've posted has caused others to respond with that assumption. You've only served to confirm their opinions, and convince me of the same. (and I almost don't believe it, but you've now corrected your English to also confirm this? I must be mis-understanding you completely)
How are you so impressed by how simple a button can be drawn using Cairo, when it's just as easy using Direct2D, and GDI+.
Originally Posted by dreammanor
I also used Fortran, and also knew C/C++/C#/VB.NET/Delphi/Java/SQL/VBA/Assembly/Python/Golang. In addition, I don't know that SAP is just a database.
Clearly not at a high level - or you wouldn't be so enamored with UI/UX. I've been doing custom UIs since before there were standards. Knowing all the pitfalls over the decades, most of us just are not impressed. And why are you mentioning things as evidence you clearly don't know about - and then admitting it... just stick to what you know. I know you don't know python or Golang or assembly at any sort of high level - so why even post them as languages you "knew". Lets be completely transparent. You're clearly good at it - and mean well.
Originally Posted by dreammanor
I now understand why you and Olaf have different opinions on "License".
Luckily personal opinion doesn't have anything to do with the Copyright Law. Olaf is in clear violation of LGPL, MIT and possibly MPL licenses. RC5 is the only project I've ever seen where the distributor feels that sufficient copyright and license is represented by a url. You think every legit Open Source project "includes a copy" of the license for fun? No - it's not for fun - it's a legal requirement stated in the license. Olaf clearly needs legal counsel, especially since he likes throwing the word libel. It's become his "fake news"
Originally the first time I pointed out he was in violation of LGPL - he said he would just remove libqrencode instead of just releaseing the build scripts. Now he's claiming he doesn't use build scripts, and that MPL doesn't cover those new scripts even if he did. (notice the double argument, typically used when you have a weak case) Either way - LGPL code has already been (And still is) distributed by Olaf in violation. - LGPL is explicit in that all instructions and scripts used to build a binary from the sources, must be made available. This is the spirit of open source - codified. No opinions come into it.
Why even be shady about it? It wouldn't take me more than a day to engineer it from scratch, and in fact it only took Vlad/Trick a couple hours making an open source cairo viable for VB users.
MY opinion, is that Olaf is shady. Either that or I seem to bring out the worst in him. It's a normal human behavior to lash out, when someone points out where you've gone wrong. It's much harder to admit when you're wrong.
No need to put yourself on the wrong side of an argument - simply because you're an RC5 zealot.
Good luck with golang, but my money is on swift.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 09:37 AM
#71
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
How are you so impressed by how simple a button can be drawn using Cairo, when it's just as easy using Direct2D, and GDI+.
Why do you make your wrong comments before you see others?
Aqua-Button is a part of a Form-Designer I made 10 years ago. I didn't believe GdiPlus 10 years ago, and I don't know Direct2D, but I still use GDI to complete this button. Why? Because my requirements for the quality of the software are much higher than yours. The UI is an important part of the quality of the software. How long can you complete such an Aqua-Button with GDI?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Clearly not at a high level - or you wouldn't be so enamored with UI/UX. I've been doing custom UIs since before there were standards. Knowing all the pitfalls over the decades, most of us just are not impressed. And why are you mentioning things as evidence you clearly don't know about - and then admitting it... just stick to what you know. I know you don't know python or Golang or assembly at any sort of high level - so why even post them as languages you "knew". Lets be completely transparent. You're clearly good at it - and mean well.
Sorry, I took back my decision not to reply to this thread.
DEXWERX, what are you best at? Is that Subclass tlb? From RC5 and Olaf's comments in vbForums, I know that he is a programming expert. But I can't judge from your comments what you are good at? You should stayed in a big company. Could you show your software product in a big company?
Also, are you at a high level in Fortran/C/C++/C#/VB.NET/Korn Shell/SQL/Assembly?
In addition, what were you doing 10 years ago? Could you briefly introduce your work 10 years ago?
I remember that you said that you are also a very capable person, but I never know where your abilities are?
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 01:41 PM.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 11:45 AM
#72
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
I like how you continually change the angle of conversation, but I think it's time to graciously bow out.
Trying to continuously correct people on the internet is a losing game.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 12:59 PM
#73
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
I've been looking for a language that can replace VB6, I've tested Java/Python/Golang and used Python for half a year. Fortran/C++/Delphi/Assembly is the language I used many years ago, and since 2008, my company's main development language is C#. So I said that I understand these languages a little. I'm certainly not an expert in this area. What do you want to express?
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Aug 21st, 2018, 01:11 PM
#74
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Luckily personal opinion doesn't have anything to do with the Copyright Law. Olaf is in clear violation of LGPL, MIT and possibly MPL licenses. RC5 is the only project I've ever seen where the distributor feels that sufficient copyright and license is represented by a url. You think every legit Open Source project "includes a copy" of the license for fun? No - it's not for fun - it's a legal requirement stated in the license. Olaf clearly needs legal counsel, especially since he likes throwing the word libel. It's become his "fake news"
Originally the first time I pointed out he was in violation of LGPL - he said he would just remove libqrencode instead of just releaseing the build scripts. Now he's claiming he doesn't use build scripts, and that MPL doesn't cover those new scripts even if he did. (notice the double argument, typically used when you have a weak case) Either way - LGPL code has already been (And still is) distributed by Olaf in violation. - LGPL is explicit in that all instructions and scripts used to build a binary from the sources, must be made available. This is the spirit of open source - codified. No opinions come into it.
Why even be shady about it? It wouldn't take me more than a day to engineer it from scratch, and in fact it only took Vlad/Trick a couple hours making an open source cairo viable for VB users.
MY opinion, is that Olaf is shady. Either that or I seem to bring out the worst in him. It's a normal human behavior to lash out, when someone points out where you've gone wrong. It's much harder to admit when you're wrong.
When Olaf argued with you about "license" and said that you were "libelling" him, why didn't you justify yourself and write the words above?
Edit:
I don't know the details of those licenses. But your speech in this thread makes me have a completely different view of you, because you always deliberately misinterpret other's comments.
You really should come up with enough evidence to prove that you are not slandering others.
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 01:33 PM.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 01:20 PM
#75
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Olaf is in clear violation of LGPL, MIT and possibly MPL licenses.
Again, you resort to slander in a public forum
(for the record: no, I'm not in violation of the LGPL, MIT or MPL license).
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
RC5 is the only project I've ever seen where the distributor feels that sufficient copyright and license is represented by a url.
That's absurd - there's tons of binary distributions, which all come without any inclusion of the concrete license-text-files...
Want an example? - Ok, look at the contents of the binary distribution-package for the xulrunner-runtime:
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/xulrunner...test/runtimes/
It contains xul.dll (which in turn contains dozens of other "linked in" OpenSource-libs - as e.g. libCairo for the canvas-functionality).
Do you see any MPL- or LGPL-license-text-files included in that binary package?
No, you don't.
In comments, how to distribute a "xulrunner-solution", there's only explained -
where to "hang-in" the contents of the above linked binary-runtime-package
(a developer is encouraged though, to not hide information in his own App or Setup-package, where the xulrunner originated from).
And that's what (in analogy to that) my _Library-Licenses.txt file does (which is quite comparable, since it's also a "binary-runtime-package").
What's also stated in _Library-Licenses.txt is (being inside a Dll-package for developers, and not an Application-setup),
is instructions for developers, not to hide these Lib- and License-Infos in the final Apps they later plan to deploy).
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
You think every legit Open Source project "includes a copy" of the license for fun?
As just demonstrated above - no - not every "legit" (as per your wrong understanding) binary dist-package contains a "copy of the license" -
(because it doesn't have to) an indirect "mentioning" (usually directing to the appropriate sites via link) is enough
(as seen in the mozilla-bin-package).
Those license-text-files *have* to be included in "Source-Distributions" (which I'm not required to do, due to certain exceptions,
which are part of the licenses in question).
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Olaf clearly needs legal counsel...
Nah - you made already 3 attempts and always got it wrong.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Originally the first time I pointed out he was in violation of LGPL - he said he would just remove libqrencode instead of just releaseing the build scripts
That was mentioned, because you insisted (wrongly, as always when it comes to OpenSource-licenses),
that I had to release the sources of vbRichClient5.dll...
- but vbRichClient5.dll does not make any use of libqrencode anywhere in its binary
- hence my comment, that I could as well exclude libqrencode from the c-compiled binary.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Now he's claiming he doesn't use build scripts,
It's not a "claim" - it's a fact.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
and that MPL doesn't cover those new scripts even if he did.
Right - even if I did, I'd be under no obligation to release such a script, since the original build-script was not changed.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Either way - LGPL code has already been (And still is) distributed by Olaf in violation.
Nope, that's a wrong statement as well.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
- LGPL is explicit in that all instructions and scripts used to build a binary from the sources, must be made available.
No, Point 6 of the LGPL describes "exceptions to the sections above it" -
and libqrencode falls clearly under point 6.b)
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Why even be shady about it?
That's what I'm trying to understand the whole time (looking at your wrong claims).
Olaf
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Aug 21st, 2018, 01:27 PM
#76
Thread Starter
PowerPoster
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Hi DEXWERX,
I don't know the details of those licenses. But your speech in this thread makes me have a completely different view of you, because you always deliberately misinterpret other's comments.
You really should come up with enough evidence to prove that you are not slandering others.
Last edited by dreammanor; Aug 21st, 2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 03:17 PM
#77
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
@dreammanor: You've used such broad sweeping statements, that I've attempted to clarify and correct the terms your using so we can all get on the same page. So no; my comments show that I don't "always deliberately misinterpret other's comments." Also for the record - I don't know Fortran or COBOL.
@Olaf: Comparing your distributed shared library with an open source project that makes both sources and licenses available from the same place... seems to contradict your position. You don't make any sources available. Not to mention that the MIT license has no such clauses to misinterpret. You have to include it. I was the first to ping Vlad on his open source projects not included it - and he added it in good faith (he just forgot it). Totally different scenario, but just trying to illustrate character.
Also thinking that I care at all for the sources of your library is misguided. I promise I have never asked to see them, although I am grateful for you freely posting the more interesting tidbits from the library.
Here's the thread to correct your memory:
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...=1#post5261257
Notice that It's clear that not only did I not ask or imply that you release the source to RC5, but that you also understood which DLL I was talking about and your legal obligations.
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Aug 21st, 2018, 04:15 PM
#78
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Comparing your distributed shared library with an open source project that makes both sources and licenses available from the same place... seems to contradict your position.
It might seem so to you, but no, it doesn't contradict my position.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
You don't make any sources available.
I mentioned where the sources are available - and also the licenses the sources are under -
I've shown you already, what a binary-distribution-package (from the Mozilla guys) is made of.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
Not to mention that the MIT license has no such clauses to misinterpret.
The MIT-license is talking about inclusion of the license-text in "copies ... of the Software" (which is clearly the Source-Code, in case I would ship it).
That my interpretation is right, can (again) clearly be seen in the binary-distro of the mozilla-xulrunner-package (where the MIT-license-text is nowhere contained).
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
You have to include it.
No, I don't have to.
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
I was the first to ping Vlad on his open source projects not included it - and he added it in good faith (he just forgot it). Totally different scenario, but just trying to illustrate character.
If you are unsure about something, then better "err on the side of caution" (only if Vlads Repo contained the *Sources as well*, then a License-Text-File is required).
The difference is, I'm *not* unsure about it (so, what confidence has to do with "character" is unclear to me).
Originally Posted by DEXWERX
But of course you did imply it - a few postings above mine, in your wellknown "sneaky way"... ("So does rc5 use LGPL code?")
Since you now claim, to not even have the slightest interest in my source-code,
I wonder why you continue this slandering of a fellow developer in a public forum -
making up "cases" out of your own misunderstanding of license-law.
I'm not breaking the law here - it's you (with unproven direct accusations and public slander) -
and I'd suggest that Shaggy puts an end to it already.
Olaf
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Aug 21st, 2018, 04:49 PM
#79
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
"sneaky"? I prefer concise and lawyerly. But hey the thread is there for others to interpret what I've said - without you having to mischaracterize me or the Licenses. More importantly we can see with our own eyes what you wrote and understood then, vs now.
If anyone is interested in the legalities of Open Source, there's also plenty of info out there, including what constitutes "source" in the GPL/LGPL. It's quite broad, contrary to what Olaf says.
Here's a couple about the MIT license.
https://opensource.stackexchange.com...-someones-code
https://softwareengineering.stackexc...of-mit-license
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Aug 21st, 2018, 05:02 PM
#80
Hyperactive Member
Re: Is there a desktop software that has permanent vitality like Photoshop?
Originally Posted by reexre
As for RC5, I do not understand why so much aversion on the part of some. Just because it's not open-source. Is this really so important?
Because we all got burned by vb6 being closed source. If microsoft would release the source, these forums would be a completely different place. We would be working on the next version of vb6. Instead, you have a few randos posting vaporware and closed source stuff. When the creator of RC5 gives up\moves on, you will be stuck with *another* dead tool. No thanks.
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