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Thread: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

  1. #321
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The number has some meaning, we just can't know what that meaning is.
    Well - there's certainly a few things that can be concluded for sure:
    1) the interest shown in the VB6-SubForum is (about) equal to the interest shown in visiting the VB.NET-Subforum
    2) the interest shown in Desktop-Development is by orders of magnitude larger than the interest shown in Web-, Mobile- or UWP- SubForums
    2.1) the interest in the DB-Forum is always about 10-15% of the interest shown in the dedicated "DeskTop-Programming-Forums" (roughly the same is true for the VBA/Office-section)

    The points above are certainly nothing to sneeze at (statistically speaking) - and it is also all quite plausible to me
    (nothing that comes as a surprise - e.g. the DB-Forum-percentage was in a similar relation also in good old UseNet -
    and the "current-visitor-relations" among different subforums also roughly match the "total-postingcount-relation" of the same subforums).

    Though since this comes from the statistics of a single WebSite - one has to ask himself a few other questions (as in "don't generalize all too much")...
    As e.g.:
    - Is the statistics of this forum representative for the VB-Community as a whole?
    ...... I'd say (basically) yes, because it simply is the most frequented Q&A site for VB on this planet (these days, not sure about the past - I'm a relative "short-time" member here).

    - Is the statistics of this forum representative for "all programming-tasks or -languages" (since the Forum *does* offer e.g. a C-section and a JavaScript-section)?
    ...... Certainly not! - it is frequented by "typical LOB-App-guys" who primarily develop for the Windows-Desktop and "the Office" (with a bit of Web-stuff thrown in).

    As for the "anonymous" Guests vs. "logged in" Users...
    That can be explained with different "expiry-timeouts" for certain "grades of login".
    Both kind of users will drag a "Session-ID" along (initialized by a Cookie - and then present in the current Browser-session over a hidden Text-Field).
    I can imagine, that "fully logged in" Users - when inactive (not clicking any Links) will drop out of the "session-expired-window" somewhat earlier (as "full Users"),
    but are than listed a little while longer - along with all other "anonymous session-IDs" (which will also "drop out off the anonymous-expiry-window after some time").

    I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of "silent lurkers" (or "semi-silent-ones", which follow discussions "readonly", without properly logging in, despite having an account here).
    Also not underestimated should be the "amount of devices" or "places" the site is contacted from... at work I often parse the Forum anonymously (coming in from a Google-search, just to look something up).

    Just my $0.02...

    Olaf

  2. #322
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    As long as it fits their agenda, they use it, just like Tiobe. How often have we seen people talk about the Visual Basic category as being VB6? If they took the time to look at the explanation that Tiobe provides, they'd realize that Visual Basic does include VB6, but just barely. It's mostly VBA, with VB.NET being the next largest part, VB6 as being a small third portion, and 'other basic' a distant fourth.
    It looks like you have fallen into your own trap and are using Tiobe to fit your agenda.
    The Tiobe 'Visual Basic' category does not include VB.Net. VB.Net has its own category in Tiobe.
    And 'other basic' isn't included either, there are various categories for other basics in Tiobe, including one named 'Basic'. Even VBScript isn't included, it too has its own category. And versions of Classic VB older than VB6 are excluded, while all 8 (or is it 9 now?) versions of VB.Net are included in the VB.Net category.

    But even Tiobe likes a joke, they show VB.Net as being more popular than both C# and JavaScript added together - and have VB.Net in the running for 'language of the year'.
    Last edited by VB6 Programming; Dec 7th, 2018 at 05:15 PM.

  3. #323
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    (coming in from a Google-search, just to look something up).
    That must be the main reason for the high number of guests, the people that come from Google searches.
    Before I registered in the forum I came often because to Google searches.

  4. #324
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by VB6 Programming View Post
    It looks like you have fallen into your own trap and are using Tiobe to fit your agenda.
    The Tiobe 'Visual Basic' category does not include VB.Net. VB.Net has its own category in Tiobe...
    I thought his point was that Tiobe's way of measuring whatever it is they measure and report is inherently imprecise, chaotic, and ultimately not very useful.

    Just as "Visual Basic" probably contains a grab-bag of beans counted in its bag "Java" probably contains a vast number of "JavaScript" beans, "C" probably includes lots of "C++" and "C#" beans, and on and on.


    I'd go further. I believe that without obtaining figures they liked by seeding and weighting to alter the results the Tiobe folks would throw up their hands and stop counting and reporting these figures altogether.

    It's all marketing.

  5. #325
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Just as "Visual Basic" probably contains a grab-bag of beans counted in its bag "Java" probably contains a vast number of "JavaScript" beans, "C" probably includes lots of "C++" and "C#" beans, and on and on.
    As long as they don't double count the results for VB family are impressive. Is it positive Visual Basic does not contain VB.Net and VBScript and Other Basic entries?

    I don't see separate VBA entry so this must be the rocket booster Visual Basic entry is flying on -- it's not VB6, we can calm down and breathe now :-))

    So, they do have entries definitions:

    Visual Basic .NET: Visual Basic .NET, VB.NET, Visual Basic.NET, Visual Basic (confidence: 50%), VB (confidence: 50%)
    Visual Basic: Visual Basic (confidence: 50%), VB (confidence: 50%), VBA, VB6


    cheers,
    </wqw>

  6. #326
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    You've seen my stuff, probably in various places and on my comments re: VB6 and new platforms. it looks like this:



    Each of those programs is written in javascript. For me javascript was the natural progression from VB6 as I could put my admittedly primitive programming styles into action using javascript. I used the old Yahoo Widget Engine that gave javascript access to the desktop with documented APIs and that meant you could have javascript running on the windows and Mac osx desktop with no changes from XP to Win10 today.

    It taught me that I can program in any style and javascript can take it. It also told me that there is life even after the death of the Yahoo widget engine as all the widgets CAN be converted to web widgets and continue to operate.

    I still program in YWE as it is fully document, still operating and my code will always be salvageable, it is just javascript with some XML descriptions. I have ported some of my most complex .js code (my media player) to another javascript engine, Xwidgets (also defunct) and it functioned identically. I even wrote a guide on how to do it:

    https://www.deviantart.com/yereverlu...-Pt1-677100991

    Even if you realise that YWE has no future then the process of converting from VB6 to YWE will open your eyes on what can be done with javascript. I use Photoshop as the IDE and RJTextEd as my code editor with the engine in debug mode. That is as close as you are going to get to a desktop javascript IDE.

    Javascript is a great language but putting the results on the desktop is not as easy as you'd like, the YWE having been abandoned by its owner is in the same position as VB6. You'll need to find a framework that does what you want and deployability is at the same level of complexity as bundling OCXs, if not much worse. The future seems to be all in the shape of those awful 'apps' written in HTML, .js and CSS. All looking the same and with no real desktop context.

    Someone was kind enough to quote me earlier with regard to ReactOS. I put my faith in ReactOS as a bundled platform for my programs, the natural home for VB6. I can run my YWE and VB6 programs there with confidence for the future. I wish you competent programming chaps would help those ReactOS devs more and commit to help create that platform for the sake of the future of VB6. If the fan-made VB6.5+ offerings ever make some headway then the two are a match made in heaven!

    It is time the VB6 crowd got its act together and came up with a common approach, so much brainpower wasted, so much bickering and yet such potential untapped and wasted on small matters that go nowhere.

  7. #327
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    It is time the VB6 crowd got its act together and came up with a common approach, so much brainpower wasted, so much bickering and yet such potential untapped and wasted on small matters that go nowhere.
    Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. 1) Everyone has their own ideas of what the next VB version should do... more importantly, everyone has their own list of needs based on what ever project they are working on... there isn't a coherent front. Just about the only thing that can be agreed upon is that we'd all like for existing code to "just work". 2) There have been a number of personal solo projects that have been done ... and as a result, they're overly protective of their feifedoms ... they're not interested in others playing in their sand box... which means that any effort that needs to happen, needs to start from scratch. 3) Time.. Clearly this isn't something that's going to be cranked out in a weekend... this is something that's going to be a long slog that's going to be ground out over at least a year.. not many of us have that kind of patience... or maybe we do.... what most of us probably don't have is the kind of bandwidth that's going to be needed to pull off this kind of thing. 4) Organization. Heck, we couldn't even agree what should come first - the compiler or the editor. There's a thread/poll around here somewhere that backs this up. This goes back to point 1 about how everyone has their own needs and own ideas.

    Here's what I think it's going to take:
    1-2 people at the top willing to take it on to organize and coordinate the whole thing. They would be responsible for guarding the whole project, the roadmap, being the face of the project, master of the git, etc. This is where the buck stops so to speak.
    Under them 1-2 additional people responsible for the editor - they head up the developers that take on the editor side of the project. They report back to the main project group the progress, as well as report to the developers any changes in policy from top down. They would be responsible for bringing on the developers, adding them to the repo, etc.
    At that same level are 1-2 people who mirror the same functionality, but for the compiler group.
    Within the editor and compiler groups, the developers should probably self-organize, provide mentorships as needed, peer reviews, etc.

    Any time there is a discrepancy or dispute, it should be kicked up the chain until it reaches a decision of consensus.

    But I haven't really given it any thought.

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  8. #328
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post

    But I haven't really given it any thought.
    Sounds like you have.

  9. #329
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Haven't most people either retired from programming or else picked a boat off the island by now?

    There aren't a lot of viable alternatives and most will mean some sacrifice. Unless you are willing and able to move to another island stable alternatives like an old Delphi version aren't practical and leave you even more desperate and lonely.

    So for most people the perpetual treadmill of ongoing version churn is just going to be their way of life from here onward. That's considered quite normal beyond the shrinking VB6 horizon so it's just a matter of changing your expectations.

    A lot of Python plinkers are facing the brick wall of the death of Python 2 right now and when it hits in a couple of months they'll be pretty unhappy.

    Python 2 End Of Life Threatens Security

  10. #330
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Javascript is a great language
    this is where you lost me

  11. #331
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by DllHell View Post
    this is where you lost me
    Well, it is expressive, you can do as much as you want with it, in a similar fashion to VB6. It is derided much as VB6 is but it is usable - and popular as a result. What is truly great about it is that your code is usable to some extent from the desktop to the web. You get what I mean by 'great' in this context.

  12. #332
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Haven't most people either retired from programming or else picked a boat off the island by now?
    Dil, you sound as if you are almost talking from the grave. Your legacy may yet survive you...

  13. #333
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'm just saying that a lot of people who used to be active here don't post much if at all anymore. So I assume some are no longer programming at all while others have moved to other languages.

  14. #334
    Lively Member shagratt's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by DllHell View Post
    this is where you lost me

    Javascript:

    alert('10'+1); ---> '101'
    alert('10'-1); ---> '9'

    Lol! Javascript is amazing :P Only language that can give you that results. I really love it (and created my own js framework)... but leave it for web, for desktop I will die loving VB6 (and I coded in like 20 languages/platforms in my life)

    I really want to kill young developers when I see things like importing a full node.js library + framework/server for a resident app and eating +500mb of ram when the same functionality can be implemented in C++ in a 200kb exe. Of course someone favoured portability (cough! lazyness ) over performance.
    One example is the thing included in nVidia drivers for adding visual effects in games.

  15. #335
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Admittedly number type control is not one of Javascripts strengths (whereas some javascript derivatives have stronger typing) but you soon learn to ensure your numeric evaluations are exactly that.

    In reality though, moving from VB6 to javascript is relatively painless for a VB6-er and not an unnatural progression. The move from VB6 to .js is no worse than to VB.NET in some respects - I should imagine.

    Those frameworks that you mentioned are a serious pain for desktop development and a reason to avoid it, I couldn't countenance it myself for 'my' sort of programs that is why I look for a desktop engine that uses javascript or jscript as its glue. Desktop programs can embed Chrome and its javascript engine and this is still being done. YWE, Xwidgets and now the Rainwidget engine is the latest to appear. I am sure there will be more. Javascript for the desktop is just too attractive a proposition to ignore.

  16. #336
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by shagratt View Post
    Javascript:

    alert('10'+1); ---> '101'
    alert('10'-1); ---> '9'
    Having ported my 4GL application from VB6 to JavaScript makes me a JS programmer I guess... I got 10 years out of the VB6 app (a decade of robust sales) - and already past the 10 year point with the JS version. And the nice thing about the JS version?? It isn't going away!

    Regardless, if you cannot appreciate WHY the "+" works the way it does and why the "-" does something different, then you have limited experience with programming languages. Simple data type coercion rules based on operator types - that should be like "syntax-101".

    And basing your criticism on data type coercion - really?

    Shouldn't the value of a programming language be based on what you get for return-on-investment?

    My JS 4GL works just like a winform app. All ajax - all interactive. Uploads, downloads, PDF creation, EXCEL creation, mobile device detecting. At one location my app (JS frontend / VB.NET IIS backend) is being used by 1000 student on campus to check in, do room inventory, maintenance work orders - 300 faculty loading grades. 25,000 emails sent in the first school year - notifications of final grades posted, reminders to complete room inventories. Matter of fact, I cannot think of anything that my old VB6 4GL Winform could do that my new JS 4GL Webform cannot do...

    And I have no reliance on desktop widgets.

    Users of the today are NOT only going to use a windows based PC with a desktop - that is old history.

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  17. #337
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    And basing your criticism on data type coercion - really?
    Of course people are going to base criticisms on things like this. Some people just don't like weakly typed languages.

  18. #338
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Not a strength? I see JavaScript as nothing but a festering bag of weakness. But like it or not it's the only game in town for almost anything related to the web directly or otherwise.

    I might even bit the bullet and accept all of the issues if only everything wrapped around it wasn't in just as bad a shape.

    I don't want to make web sites any more. Been there, done that, and it doesn't meet my needs. Little code I write these days is ever used by more than one or a few users. Why make 100 web sites to replace 100 nice little VB6 programs?

    I have played with Electron as a compromise. It's a huge change but once you wrap your head around its execution model you can make things with it. At least it has native UI capabilities unlike a lot of other Dark World crapola. No battle over Qt, Skuti, and Kabooti as a Frankensteined-onto-the-side widget library.

    But the tools are a joke, even the ones people call "IDEs" are just fancy text editors with no proper integrated GUI design capabilities.

    It's just hard to compete with VB6, even in 2019.

    We could argue this in circles for a long time (and we have). Until somebody can bring me something like a real IDE integrated with something like Electron I don't think any of us is served by high school dropout web secretaries wandering in here selling JavaScript.

    If people want to go down that Dark World road they'd be moving to Python anyway. I wouldn't even be shocked to see Python replace JavaScript in the browser before long. Not because there is anything good about it, but it is rapidly replacing JavaScript as the Dullard's First Scripting Language.

  19. #339
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    But the tools are a joke, even the ones people call "IDEs" are just fancy text editors with no proper integrated GUI design capabilities.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    It's just hard to compete with VB6, even in 2019.
    winforms is the closest I've seen. Most vb6ers would be productive in hours if they gave it shot.

  20. #340
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Well a lot of them already have, even recently. That's probably going to be the path for many because no other obvious contenders have arisen.

  21. #341
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I think we need a beer.

  22. #342
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Language choice has nothing to do about selecting and using a particular language.
    Marketing, and the need to keep selling "something new" in order to generate sales / profits by those in control (M$ for example) does.
    Our educational institutions where one normally first learns programming, jump to the latest language out of fear their students
    will be left behind. If one is told a language -- VB6 for example -- will be deprecated and replaced by another (e.g. VB NET) the threat of
    that action creates a market and over time the previous language disappears and is replaced by the new. Been going on a long time.
    PL1 was supposed to the "THE LANGUAGE". Today most people never heard of it.

    Of the "N" number of computer languages available (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ming_languages) why does anyone
    pick a particular language in the first place? My rational is it gets the job done that I need to do.

    IMHO VB Classic is GREAT, but so was COBOL. With its English syntax, and the ability to pick up a program years later and quickly make what more can one ask for. In other languages with their unique syntax, if one hasn't used them for awhile, their is normally a relearning process when program changes need to be made at some later date. VB Classic also linkse to Office Products (which I do little of) which makes it even more advantageous, IMHO, than other languages.

    If you have some unique requirement -- you can always program in some other language. But for Day to Day coding, and the fact VB6 generates the same compiled code (my understanding but Trick or someone else more knowledgeable in assembly could confirm ) as C++, Why NOT! And if you need extra speed, all you have to do is look at some of the work done by a number of people on this forum (Olaf's CInstrRev for example at VBSpeed) you can get the job done even faster.

    My2Cents.
    Last edited by vb6forever; Aug 31st, 2019 at 09:08 PM.

  23. #343
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    And basing your criticism on data type coercion - really?
    Criticism? where? I just found it funny. You may missed the part where I stated I create my own js framework and I love the language. (been using it for 10+ years now)

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Shouldn't the value of a programming language be based on what you get for return-on-investment?
    I disagree! That's exactly what I pointed with the nVidia example. Someone asked a programmer to make an application that its going to be used as a system extension / resident program... the guy valued "HIS TIME" and used a language that he was familiar and can do things fast instead of valuing what was really needed and make an efficient choice using the apropiate language to create the exe. The result is a bulky application that eats memory loading unneded librearys because the programmer just dont care (And we see this everywhere)

    Unfortunately I think there is no "one language to rule them all" , that's utopic. If someone can make a desktop application with javascript that's fine. But if you need to do a resident program or a 3d engine no one will use javascript.

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Users of the today are NOT only going to use a windows based PC with a desktop - that is old history.
    You're right with that and its a real problem for any developer. Web interface are horrible for data entry and most design abuse the scrolling (creating everything big to be mobile friendly) Sometimes forcing everything to be web based is not the best solution, just the easiest one.

  24. #344
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    If I distil the reasons I use VB6 still, it comes down to this:

    1. The IDE - VB6 actually has a dedicated IDE (.js doesn't) - The VB6 IDE is good and usable (enough).
    2. BASIC - I know basic and I can do things with it. RAD.
    3. The IDE isn't full of bloat and it runs quickly on almost any Win PC.
    4. Design time debugging.
    5. None of the "we're now setting up your environment for you" patronising corporate bollox
    6. Not found anything as good yet compared to the above.

  25. #345
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    ReactOS was mentioned a couple of times in this thread and in that context I just noticed that ReactOS has just received an update to 0.4.12.

    https://reactos.org/project-news/reactos-0412-released

    Just because ti has been released doesn't mean that it is usable so reduce your expectations - but VB6 has probably not been tested on it yet and it might be worthwhile one of us doing so, anyone with a multicore CPU with a few cores to spare?

    VB5 certainly ran on a previous version.


  26. #346
    Member Grant Swinger's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    In case anybody is interested I tried the new version of ReactOS. VB6 Pro does not install on it. The setup program opens a tiny window in the upper left corner and then freezes hard.

    I doubt this will be replacing my virtual XP machine anytime soon.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  27. #347
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    There are a few hoops that you need to step through to get VB6 to even start installing, I will look at the relevant thread on the ReactOS forum and try the method myself. I'll get back here if I manage to make any progress.

  28. #348
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Viva la VB6

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    ... I ...

  30. #350
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Episcopal View Post
    How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    ... I ...
    We have a huge investment in vb6. We aren't "sticking around until the end". We are "stuck until the end"

  31. #351
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    We have a huge investment in vb6. We aren't "sticking around until the end". We are "stuck until the end"
    Yes ... my friend

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