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Thread: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

  1. #281
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    There you go with appropriating my Bohemian ancestors beer creation over to the Germans!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilsner

    It's Miller Time!
    I was worried I might start an international incident when I posted that! No disrepect to your ancestors was intended of course, so may I propose we all raise a glass in peace

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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    If all we are left with is disagreement over beer then we have reached the next level!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'd say we ought to stay on topic, except the topic of this thread appears to have been flame thrower technology.

    To be clear, I don't agree with dropping the Haiku syllable count. Without that, it's just words.
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  4. #284
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    If all we are left with is disagreement over beer then we have reached the next level!
    "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." Here's to reaching the next level!

    But with that I will admit we are quite off topic (sorry axisdj & Shaggy), so I'll bow out of this haiku and barley/wheat + hops inspired sidetrack.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    At least your attempt at an Haiku has the proper amount of lines.
    Well, I guess the right amount of syllables is hard to accomplish in a non-eastern-tongue...

    Olaf
    It's really embarrassing. I still don't understand what this sentence means.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    It's really embarrassing. I still don't understand what this sentence means.
    I was referring to my silly post (#269, directly above yours), ...
    which (with a whole lot of imagination and goodwill) reads like the beginning of a badly-written "haiku"
    (it was still missing the third line, not to mention that the syllables-count 5, 7, 5 was not right at all).

    You were unfortunate enough, to post directly after me (in 3 sentences - or lines, which matched at least one of the haiku-criterions).

    Sorry for mingling your posting into my pixilated attempts at writing "pilsner-blessed-poetry"...

    Olaf

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    I was referring to my silly post (#269, directly above yours), ...
    which (with a whole lot of imagination and goodwill) reads like the beginning of a badly-written "haiku"
    (it was still missing the third line, not to mention that the syllables-count 5, 7, 5 was not right at all).

    You were unfortunate enough, to post directly after me (in 3 sentences - or lines, which matched at least one of the haiku-criterions).

    Sorry for mingling your posting into my pixilated attempts at writing "pilsner-blessed-poetry"...

    Olaf
    LOL, now I understand what you mean. My English is far less than yours. I'll try my best to improve my English in the future. When I finish my project, I would be very happy to discuss with you the syllables of ancient Chinese poetry. They are very interesting.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Me and a colleague once rewrite all the error messages in a system into Haiku. I can still remember one of them:-

    Leaves fly on the breeze
    Your file has been corrupted
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I expect we'll ALL be retired, or worse, before MS can let go of 32-bit SysWoW. I'm sure they'd like to, but there's just too much running on that. They've got to let it all die away before they can abandon it.

    I'd say that it's more likely for Windows itself to fade to blue-screen before that happened, but that demise doesn't seem out of the question...unlikely, but not out of the question.

    Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. The more likely demise of VB6 is simply the dwindling job opportunities coupled with the increasing unlikeliness of finding a copy, learning it in school, finding books on it, finding web resources for it, and so on. That has zero impact on current users, it just has a cumulative corrosive impact. The less people hire for it, the less schools teach it, the less resources are created for it, the less people use it, and on and on in a virtueless spiral.
    Maybe if VB6 go to ReactOS and Raspberry Pi, the history can be change

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    A look at Booktopia (Aus) reveals books on VB6 still in stock. Personally, I find it the perfect language. I have a fully licenced Enterprise version and I will go on using it until Microsoft o/s no longer works with it, and then I'll ditch Microsoft.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Looking at VBForums a few moments ago, it seems VB6 and VB.Net are neck-and-neck.

    Name:  vbforums.jpg
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    362 viewers on each.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by VB6 Programming View Post
    Looking at VBForums a few moments ago, it seems VB6 and VB.Net are neck-and-neck.

    Name:  vbforums.jpg
Views: 209
Size:  20.3 KB

    362 viewers on each.
    Pffftt! That doesn't mean anything. that's just a simple snapshot in time. It isn't indicative of anything.

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  13. #293
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    It's a bit worse than that. After all, with a stat like that, you never know quite what it means. In situations like that, people tend to interpret it to mean that it supports whatever theory they happen to have. It DOES support ALL those theories, which is what makes it both useless and worse than useless, since it supports both truth and mistakes.

    It could reflect a point in time that was a coincidence, or it could reflect the difference in source levels for the different languages, or it could reflect the complexity of the languages, or it could reflect the usefulness of the resources. For example, if there are more questions in one place than another, is that because there are more users of one than the other, or because one is more confusing to people than the other....or just that there are loads of resources for one, and only a single resource for the other. Nobody really knows, and nobody is really studying the question....cause nobody really cares, in the end, so nobody is paying for it.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    still, it says at that moment in time that we got 362 users viewing that thread, no matter why, it means theres at least 362 people interested in VB6
    in the same time we can say, theres a least 362 people interested in VB.NET, and at that very moment they where equal in size.
    even if we can't generalize we can still say, that at one point in time we see that VB6 is still used and 362 people where interested.
    internet is a big place, sure, depending on time-zone, more or less. we need at least a week watch and once per hour to make any conclusions, but for me it tells me VB6 is still used and not a forgotten language.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Remove the bot's and the resulting figures could be very different!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It's a bit worse than that. After all, with a stat like that, you never know quite what it means. In situations like that, people tend to interpret it to mean that it supports whatever theory they happen to have. It DOES support ALL those theories, which is what makes it both useless and worse than useless, since it supports both truth and mistakes.

    It could reflect a point in time that was a coincidence, or it could reflect the difference in source levels for the different languages, or it could reflect the complexity of the languages, or it could reflect the usefulness of the resources. For example, if there are more questions in one place than another, is that because there are more users of one than the other, or because one is more confusing to people than the other....or just that there are loads of resources for one, and only a single resource for the other. Nobody really knows, and nobody is really studying the question....cause nobody really cares, in the end, so nobody is paying for it.
    Say Shaggy,

    I'm not at all sure it's worthless (or worse than worthless). I suspect that many of us glance at those numbers on a fairly regular basis. Personally, I find that this VB6 forum is always holding its own with respect the the .NET forum. Compared to the Xamarin, ASP, Mobile, Database and other forums, it looks like a shining star.

    Now, I'll readily admit that it's not terribly scientific. However, it's not entirely non-scientific either. So, having taught graduate scientific methods and statistics for many years, I'll make a few comments. To meet the highest standards of science, we'd need to start interviewing all people randomly drawn from our population of interest (say, the USA, or maybe even the world). We'd occasionally find a programmer, and then we'd ask what language(s) they used, accumulating a count for each popular language. As a short-cut to that approach, many survey companies use what they call "panels", groups of people (hopefully in the 1000s) who have pre-agreed to be contacted about their lives and careers.

    Now, short of both of those, we wind up in an area called "matching". Often, when attempting to make comparisons, we must deal with what scientists call "self-selected groups". That's what we've got here. The people watching the VB6 and/or .NET forums are clearly self-selected (i.e., they made the choice to watch these forums). When we must deal with self-selected groups, we must ask another important question: Is there something else besides their interest in being in one (or both) of our groups that distinguishes them? In science, this would be called a confounding variable.

    For instance, for the people watching the .NET forum and the VB6 forum, is there something else fundamentally different about them? More specifically, of all the VB6 programmers (versus .NET programmers), is there something about VB6 programmers that would make them watch forums like this more often? Maybe there is. I suspect that VB6 programmers are somewhat older (on average). And I suspect we've been programming longer than the .NET programmers. Also, we've possibly had more time in our lives to find our way to a forum such as VBForums.

    I know that's true in my case. I've been programming since the late 70s, but only joined these forums in 2014, and this is the first (and, basically, only) forum I've actively participated in. Prior to that, I would occasionally look up various things on the web, but I was the lone ranger out there, doing my own thing. Sure, I worked with programming teams, but I just didn't have a "programming" online presence.

    So, maybe the groups aren't perfectly matched, with a higher percentage of VB6 programmers being here than .NET programmers. However, the fact that they often pull up equal is saying something. Also, I find it quite fascinating that we somewhat frequently see younger people picking up VB6 as a language of interest.

    Anyway, just my two-cents.
    Elroy

    EDIT1: Also, I'd sure be happy if this thread would be moved over into a general discussion area. The negativity implicit in the title makes me bristle. But hey ho.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    ...EDIT1: Also, I'd sure be happy if this thread would be moved over into a general discussion area. The negativity implicit in the title makes me bristle. But hey ho.
    I feel the title actually nicely fits the actual OP's initial post. The discussion is about when to bail - prior to VB6 no longer working or before that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by axisdj View Post
    Hello Group,

    I currently have 5 products on the market written in VB6 (entrepreneur) . These products have evolved over the last 10-15 years. I have not come to the point where vb6 has limited the functionality in my software.

    To that point, I just cannot find the motivation to move to another development platform.

    My question is, is that common among you guys on this forum? If VB6 were to break what is your backup plan? Do you think it is irresponsible to wait until it breaks? I feel that point when it breaks will be the only way i will be motivated to move on...

    I have spoken with many upgrade consultants, and many of them have cautioned me on moving languages, they say that they have seen many companies go out of business because of the time spent migrating, made them loose their edge in the market. Because they are spending time trying to get to the same place, when their competitors are working on new features...

    Any wisdom, opinion, or approaches will be greatly appreciated.

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  18. #298
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Bail? Bail to where?

    Anyone who wants to do web development is already there. That is so full of pitfalls for anything but CRUD applications it doesn't address most of what VB6 people are after.

    I suppose there are things like Node.js or Electron if you want to straddle both worlds. But ugh, JavaScript. Ack! Ptui! TypeScript may help there but that's another moving target.

    The Perl world is falling apart because churn led so many to try to pound a stake in the ground:

    The Perl Renaming Debate Highlights Tensions

    Python has the same issues but it just hasn't come to a head yet. JavaScript is in much the same boat as it mutates.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    @dil - have you migrated any of your apps from VB6 to another platform (such as JS or something you dislike even more)?

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Actually I was writing a lot of stuff using Electron until the last year. Lately I've been using B4J more and considering just going full-on Java and calling it good.

    None of those options save you from the churn though. I've already found that as B4J and B4J library updates come out I have to go back and rework existing programs. You don't want to wait, because if you do and then you have to make a change based on requirement changes... you may face a mess you have to unravel before you can begin.

    Stability has value.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Bail? Bail to where?
    c# or vb.net?

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    my favorite part of a "dead" language is rock solid stability. projects created 19 yrs ago still open and compile perfectly. The way java and .NET keep requiring new run times and tweaking established library calls drives me nuts.

    If i bail its to free pascal and linux. Kill my libraries and windows has no use to me anymore.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    im sure vb6 will keep working as long window can run 32bit.
    maybe components will stop working or get buggy, but we will find workarounds when that happens.
    the core will work until the end of 32bit applications.
    hopefully some genius will be able to create a fix so we can run it on 64bit.
    so i will be around to "after" the end, as im sure, it will not be the end but the reborn of another vb6 created by the community.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I am all worries when the day comes and VB6 no more
    I am trying B4X right now because I can not take .NET or Delphi!

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Actually I was writing a lot of stuff using Electron until the last year. Lately I've been using B4J more and considering just going full-on Java and calling it good.

    None of those options save you from the churn though. I've already found that as B4J and B4J library updates come out I have to go back and rework existing programs. You don't want to wait, because if you do and then you have to make a change based on requirement changes... you may face a mess you have to unravel before you can begin.

    Stability has value.
    Can you shed some light on your experience with B4J, cons, pros,...etc.?!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by labmany View Post
    Can you shed some light on your experience with B4J, cons, pros,...etc.?!
    I have concerns about anything that relies on a small company or too much on one person for its continued existence. B4J can't stand still because Java and JavaFx mutate outside its control, which means you can never put B4J (or even B4J or Java applications) "in a bottle" as much as you can with VB6.

    You also don't get the depth of documentation and sample code that something as heavily invested in and used as VB6 has. This can mean a lot more trial and error to work out how things work and what their limitations may be. The B4X community is still smaller than the VB6 community, but much of the latter is pretty silent now, toiling in corporate obscurity.

    There is also the problem of Java itself. I've run into Windows shops where they don't preinstall Java on their PCs, don't keep it up to date, or even purge it from machines via periodic security sweeps of their PC fleets.

    On the bright side you have a good cross-platform story across desktop OSs, as well as being able to port a lot of logic and use almost identical libraries on mobile platforms. Much of this also works on IoT devices through B4R.

    The language syntax feels somewhere between that of VB6 and VB.Net or Java. It is a sort of "Java-ized Basic" without going full-on nuts as VB.Net did.

    Applications made with B4J will never look 100% native on Windows, but that probably won't bother people as much anymore. Look at how people have thrown in the towel and resigned themselves to the "Wacky Racers Meets Hunt the Wumpus" UIs of web applications.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    There is also the problem of Java itself. I've run into Windows shops where they don't preinstall Java on their PCs, don't keep it up to date, or even purge it from machines via periodic security sweeps of their PC fleets.
    You shouldn't and don't need to rely on Java being installed on the customer computer.
    The better approach is to embed a modularized JRE (Java runtime) together with your app.

    It is quite simple to do, especially with the recently released Java 11 and B4J v6.80: https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/th...99835/#content

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    The language syntax feels somewhere between that of VB6 and VB.Net or Java. It is a sort of "Java-ized Basic" without going full-on nuts as VB.Net did.
    B4X is a RAD programing language. It has many features not available in any of the mentioned languages. For example "resumable subs" feature which makes it much simpler to manage async tasks.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I have concerns about anything that relies on a small company or too much on one person for its continued existence. B4J can't stand still because Java and JavaFx mutate outside its control, which means you can never put B4J (or even B4J or Java applications) "in a bottle" as much as you can with VB6.

    You also don't get the depth of documentation and sample code that something as heavily invested in and used as VB6 has. This can mean a lot more trial and error to work out how things work and what their limitations may be. The B4X community is still smaller than the VB6 community, but much of the latter is pretty silent now, toiling in corporate obscurity.

    There is also the problem of Java itself. I've run into Windows shops where they don't preinstall Java on their PCs, don't keep it up to date, or even purge it from machines via periodic security sweeps of their PC fleets.

    On the bright side you have a good cross-platform story across desktop OSs, as well as being able to port a lot of logic and use almost identical libraries on mobile platforms. Much of this also works on IoT devices through B4R.

    The language syntax feels somewhere between that of VB6 and VB.Net or Java. It is a sort of "Java-ized Basic" without going full-on nuts as VB.Net did.

    Applications made with B4J will never look 100% native on Windows, but that probably won't bother people as much anymore. Look at how people have thrown in the towel and resigned themselves to the "Wacky Racers Meets Hunt the Wumpus" UIs of web applications.
    Thanks dilettante for your reply.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Erel View Post
    You shouldn't and don't need to rely on Java being installed on the customer computer.
    The better approach is to embed a modularized JRE (Java runtime) together with your app.

    It is quite simple to do, especially with the recently released Java 11 and B4J v6.80: https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/th...99835/#content
    This will come handy of course Erel, but how big is the final package?!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Pffftt! That doesn't mean anything. that's just a simple snapshot in time. It isn't indicative of anything.

    -tg
    Here's another simple snapshot in time.

    Name:  vbforums.jpg
Views: 146
Size:  23.0 KB

    What does it mean?

    Well, for one thing it suggests that Microsoft's mighty marketing machine hasn't managed to replace a 20 year old language.

    Sad that Microsoft are now followers rather than leaders.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    This will come handy of course Erel, but how big is the final package?!
    It will be around 30mb for most applications. Not small but you do get a package that doesn't depend on anything else.

    Note that this is for B4J. B4A (Android) APK size will start from ~100k, B4i (iOS) IPA size will be similar and B4R programs can run on Arduinos with less than 1000 bytes of RAM.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Erel View Post
    It will be around 30mb for most applications. Not small but you do get a package that doesn't depend on anything else.

    Note that this is for B4J. B4A (Android) APK size will start from ~100k, B4i (iOS) IPA size will be similar and B4R programs can run on Arduinos with less than 1000 bytes of RAM.
    30 MB is acceptable, at least for me!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    You have two options, move to C/C++ or a higher level language.
    Use frameworks as much as possible for boilerplate and add you logic on top, nowadays there's no reason for you to write all from scratch!!!
    I started with VB for DOS in 1993, then VB3 and finally VB6.
    Still develop in VB6 but not for new projects, support and new features only for existing application. VB6 app is now 24 years old, and running on Win10 x64-bit just fine!
    Currently moving from VB6 to Python as a web application. Python because it is not a company product that's just open source, it's a true community driven project.
    We host apps on premise where 1 to 20 users use the app. We also use it for machine control, where before VB6 GUI and now web app.
    I use Python with Django and PostgreSQL. Give me chance to re-develop "bad" code that's been lingering but never got chance to fix it.
    Since the new app is a web app, I can use it from any device, mobile to desktop to even expose as WebAPIs (for ingestion from customer's systems).

    I would say re-do your app with feedback from customers. There maybe a change to reduce app features and concentrate on what the customers need now.
    Stay away from company provided language(s), use frameworks, use open source libraries that are community driven not company.
    My $0.02

  34. #314
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    Say Shaggy,

    I'm not at all sure it's worthless (or worse than worthless). I suspect that many of us glance at those numbers on a fairly regular basis. Personally, I find that this VB6 forum is always holding its own with respect the the .NET forum. Compared to the Xamarin, ASP, Mobile, Database and other forums, it looks like a shining star.

    Now, I'll readily admit that it's not terribly scientific. However, it's not entirely non-scientific either. So, having taught graduate scientific methods and statistics for many years, I'll make a few comments. To meet the highest standards of science, we'd need to start interviewing all people randomly drawn from our population of interest (say, the USA, or maybe even the world). We'd occasionally find a programmer, and then we'd ask what language(s) they used, accumulating a count for each popular language. As a short-cut to that approach, many survey companies use what they call "panels", groups of people (hopefully in the 1000s) who have pre-agreed to be contacted about their lives and careers.

    Now, short of both of those, we wind up in an area called "matching". Often, when attempting to make comparisons, we must deal with what scientists call "self-selected groups". That's what we've got here. The people watching the VB6 and/or .NET forums are clearly self-selected (i.e., they made the choice to watch these forums). When we must deal with self-selected groups, we must ask another important question: Is there something else besides their interest in being in one (or both) of our groups that distinguishes them? In science, this would be called a confounding variable.

    For instance, for the people watching the .NET forum and the VB6 forum, is there something else fundamentally different about them? More specifically, of all the VB6 programmers (versus .NET programmers), is there something about VB6 programmers that would make them watch forums like this more often? Maybe there is. I suspect that VB6 programmers are somewhat older (on average). And I suspect we've been programming longer than the .NET programmers. Also, we've possibly had more time in our lives to find our way to a forum such as VBForums.

    I know that's true in my case. I've been programming since the late 70s, but only joined these forums in 2014, and this is the first (and, basically, only) forum I've actively participated in. Prior to that, I would occasionally look up various things on the web, but I was the lone ranger out there, doing my own thing. Sure, I worked with programming teams, but I just didn't have a "programming" online presence.

    So, maybe the groups aren't perfectly matched, with a higher percentage of VB6 programmers being here than .NET programmers. However, the fact that they often pull up equal is saying something. Also, I find it quite fascinating that we somewhat frequently see younger people picking up VB6 as a language of interest.

    Anyway, just my two-cents.
    Elroy

    EDIT1: Also, I'd sure be happy if this thread would be moved over into a general discussion area. The negativity implicit in the title makes me bristle. But hey ho.
    I don't see much in that post. You talk about how to correctly do a survey, but agree that a snapshot of VBF is not that. You say that the snapshot means SOMETHING, but I said that the snapshot means whatever you want it to mean, which makes it less than useless because everybody can have it mean whatever they want it to mean. The fact that it isn't a good sample doesn't make it any better as a statistic.
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  35. #315
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Does anyone really believe those numbers. When it's 400 usually there's @ 5 members and 395 guests. Do you really thinks there's 395 non member VB6 or .Net programmers viewing one of these forums at that time. I have no idea where they come up with these numbers. But I wouldn't put any merit in them being a true representation of the size of the VB6 or .Net community.

  36. #316
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I don't see much in that post. You talk about how to correctly do a survey, but agree that a snapshot of VBF is not that. You say that the snapshot means SOMETHING, but I said that the snapshot means whatever you want it to mean, which makes it less than useless because everybody can have it mean whatever they want it to mean. The fact that it isn't a good sample doesn't make it any better as a statistic.
    Shaggy, regretfully, you missed the point of the post. Just as with any science, there's no perfect study. It's all shades of gray. The only thing that's black-and-white is religion (until it's not; Copernicus comes to mind) and I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Just because a numerical survey of some phenomenon isn't perfect doesn't automatically make it worthless.

    Now, wes4dbt has a valid point. If the numbers are just totally bogus, then I would agree that their worthless, as bogus very nearly equals worthless. However, if we assume that they're some true window of visits, then they're worth at least a little something. You're probably in a much better position than me to tell us exactly how they're accumulated.

    Take Care,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  37. #317
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I disagree with Shaggy too... I don't think the numbers are worthless... they have some worth... They do show some value - that there is some activity. I just don't think they are meaningful. Part of that comes from what Wes pointed out... what do those numbers mean? We don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount of those numbers represent some certain percentage of bots that visit the site. We also can't be sure of when exactly that snapshot was taken - there's no time stamp on it. So it's possible that it was taken during a down time, making the bot% high... or it could have been taken during a peak time making the bot% lower... there's just a lot about it we don't know. That's why I have a problem with it and feel that the snapshots are meaningless... they're out of context and with no background or additional information to put it into context. It's close to that joke about 62% of all statistics are made up on the spot. I'd feel more comfortable about it if at the same time everyday for at least a week, the same set of data points were gathered, presented, aggregated, and then a trend could then be extrapolated from that data. At least make some attempt to put some sort of scientific method/process into it. A single data point isn't a trend. There's a reason even the TIOBE index doesn't just ask a single developer what language they use...

    -tg
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  38. #318
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Does anyone really believe those numbers. When it's 400 usually there's @ 5 members and 395 guests. Do you really thinks there's 395 non member VB6 or .Net programmers viewing one of these forums at that time. I have no idea where they come up with these numbers. But I wouldn't put any merit in them being a true representation of the size of the VB6 or .Net community.
    I don't believe that there are so many unregistered guests all the time either.
    Most of them must be search engine spiders or something like that I guess, but I'm not sure.
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  39. #319
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    Shaggy, regretfully, you missed the point of the post. Just as with any science, there's no perfect study. It's all shades of gray. The only thing that's black-and-white is religion (until it's not; Copernicus comes to mind) and I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Just because a numerical survey of some phenomenon isn't perfect doesn't automatically make it worthless.

    Now, wes4dbt has a valid point. If the numbers are just totally bogus, then I would agree that their worthless, as bogus very nearly equals worthless. However, if we assume that they're some true window of visits, then they're worth at least a little something. You're probably in a much better position than me to tell us exactly how they're accumulated.

    Take Care,
    Elroy
    It doesn't sound like I did miss the point, we just don't agree. The number has some meaning, we just can't know what that meaning is. If that's where we left it, then that would be fine, but that's NOT where we leave it. The person who brought it up sure seems to have read some significance into the number, and that's what we do most of the time. People don't consider whether there are problems with the data. As long as it fits their agenda, they use it, just like Tiobe. How often have we seen people talk about the Visual Basic category as being VB6? If they took the time to look at the explanation that Tiobe provides, they'd realize that Visual Basic does include VB6, but just barely. It's mostly VBA, with VB.NET being the next largest part, VB6 as being a small third portion, and 'other basic' a distant fourth.

    My point was that any meaning to the number of visitors is too hard to figure out, so people will use it if it seems to support whatever view they want. In fact, the number shouldn't be used at all, because we only know that there is bias in it, we just can't figure out how much, and in what direction. That makes it a useless stat, and the fact that people will happily assign incorrect meaning to it makes it worse than useless.
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  40. #320
    PowerPoster Arnoutdv's Avatar
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Let's agree to disagree...

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