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Thread: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

  1. #161
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    ... the next version of Windows and eyeing up the Com model...

    It seems unlikely there will be a 'next' version of Windows.

    Last month Microsoft announced the Windows division is no more.
    Microsoft is now without a division devoted to personal computer operating systems (Windows).

    https://stratechery.com/2018/the-end-of-windows/

    https://news.microsoft.com/2018/03/2...elligent-edge/

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    You're one of the few. Not the only one that I have heard from, but people calling that migration tool "pretty good" are quite unusual. I have little experience with that tool, but found it to do a pretty mediocre job at most of the code, and not work at all for some other code. Doing a port by hand isn't too hard, either, and does a better job at the cost of considerably more time. I would hesitate to even suggest that conversion tool as a first step for any program of any size. For small programs, it may work tolerably, but never all that well, and the larger the project the worse it will do. You can always do better by hand, and for small projects that isn't much work, so the one place where the conversion tool may be adequate is the one place where it isn't worth using it.
    I only tested it on simple stuff, a small one form program (also did some database work), maybe a couple of hundred lines total and it compiled and ran.
    The code didn't look too pretty afterwards, lots of warning comments etc. But I am no judge of vb.net code anyway, it all looks too busy to me with all the extra parameters in event handlers, import statements,yada yada. It's a while ago now but I think the upgrade wizard in vb2008 is a big step up on the one in vb2005 partly because the language was made more compatible with vb6 in the meantime. IIRC it can even handle control arrays.

  3. #163
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    It seems unlikely there will be a 'next' version of Windows.

    Last month Microsoft announced the Windows division is no more.
    Microsoft is now without a division devoted to personal computer operating systems (Windows).
    Yeah, I know but "I can just see him working on the next version of whatever operating system achieves dominance, whether that's a Microsoft platform or some other producer" just didn't have the dramatic snappiness I was going for

    To be honest, though, I'm not convinced you're seeing the last Windows quite yet. The lack of a dedicated division is not necessarily the end of the system, (although it does indicate that it's no longer a primary offering). Indeed, from the first article you linked to : "Windows was split, with the core engineering group placed under Azure, and the rest of the organization effectively under Office 365; there will still be Windows releases, but it is no longer a standalone business"

    Of course, MS loudly announced that 10 was going to be the last Windows when they released it. Everything subsequent is an "update". Of course, where an update ends and a new version begins is largely a function of marketing.

    My personal take: you're going to see releases for a wile yet but the horizon is getting closer and, if your smart, you'll start making contingency plans to move away from traditional "desktop" development (which is not the same as saying stop developing apps that will be used by a person sitting at a desk). What those plans should look like is anyone's guess. When a monolith the size of Windows finally falls it's pretty damn hard to predict what the world will look like afterwards.
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  4. #164
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    To be honest, though, I'm not convinced you're seeing the last Windows quite yet.

    My personal take: you're going to see releases for a wile yet but the horizon is getting closer and, if your smart, you'll start making contingency plans to move away from traditional "desktop" development (which is not the same as saying stop developing apps that will be used by a person sitting at a desk). What those plans should look like is anyone's guess.
    No, I don't think we will see the end of Windows for many years either. But it is an indication of Windows (and Microsoft's) decline.

    Making predictions is always difficult (especially about the future ) but to me it looks like the move is to JavaScript - not only for traditional web front-ends but for mobile apps, server apps and desktop apps too.

    Microsoft have lost the mobile market and look like losing the desktop market too.

    PS I stopped using VB.Net a few years ago.
    But as I type this, I am installing a VB.Net app I developed onto a new Windows Mobile 6 device.
    Oh, the irony!
    Last edited by VB6 Programming; May 3rd, 2018 at 06:44 AM. Reason: PS

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    well, why do we need a new windows at all? just updates and we are fine.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    well, why do we need a new windows at all? just updates and we are fine.
    Well, you have a point there.

    If Microsoft wanted to phase out of the desktop OS business they might just strip UWP and .Net out, turn the native Start Menu back on, and then focus on security bug fixes. By ripping out those blobs of stuff nobody wants even the security patching costs would dramatically diminish.

    All of that other crap could be bundled up into add-ons to a slim core OS as their Azure Terminals. Maybe something like a UWP Chrome OS.

  7. #167
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by VB6 Programming View Post
    Microsoft support statement for VB6.0 on Windows...
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/pre...support-policy

    The Visual Basic team is committed to "It Just Works" compatibility for Visual Basic 6.0 applications on the following supported Windows operating systems:

    Windows 10
    Windows 8.1
    Windows 7
    Windows Server 2016
    Windows Server 2012 including R2
    Windows Server 2008 including R2

    Key Visual Basic 6.0 runtime files, used in the majority of application scenarios, are shipping in and supported for the lifetime of supported Windows versions.
    That was my point: MS ending support doesn't mean that MS is actively trying to break VB6, they just don't have a support team for it, or something internal like that. It makes no practical difference. It's just a word.
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  8. #168
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I think dilettante's touched on a vision that's mostly where I see Windows going.

    For the consumer, there will be a strange and scary day where the only choice is more or less the WinRT that was ignored in the Win8 timeframe. This Windows will run on desktops, XBox, tablets, and the 2 or 3 existing Windows Phones. It will only run Windows Store applications directly.

    For the enterprise, something like Windows 10 will be maintained but not innovated, which is really what enterprise wants anyway. This version will be very expensive per-seat to discourage consumers from settling for it, but likely heavily discounted via Volume Licensing agreements. The pricing for "rent Azure instances" will be more attractive for small businesses. It's unlikely these Windows versions will focus much on UWP or force that issue, because I don't think this customer profile gives a flip.

    I don't know where the industry goes after that. It depends on a lot of things. But that diminished role for Windows represents me frowning and not considering "Windows-only" a place I want to bet my career at the moment. I already know how to do Windows-only and can get that job if I want to. What I don't want is to get in a position where I don't want the Windows-only jobs but I am too deeply invested to advertise elsewhere.

    I think a lot of these discussions go in circles because some people don't care if they get "stuck" with the Windows-only jobs, and worse people believe those people are bad for not caring. In the end what matters is, "You chose the path you're on and you own that decision." It is not Microsoft's fault if you choose VB6 today and find out that was a bad decision 5 years from now.
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; May 3rd, 2018 at 10:53 AM.
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  9. #169
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    It is not Microsoft's fault if you choose VB6 today and find out that was a bad decision 5 years from now.
    Sitten, I don't have any problems with anything you've said except that statement. IMHO, it's near criminal that Microsoft didn't continue providing a clear and relatively painless upgrade path from their very first product, and possibly the product that brought them into existence (i.e., Altair BASIC). This morphed into ROM BASIC, Disk Basic, PDS Basic, VB, and ended with VB6 (when .NET took over, being an entirely different thread, with the VB portion of .NET now being abandoned).

    Again IMHO, dropping continued development of the VB6 program is absolutely Microsoft's fault, and it should forever give people pause about the trustworthiness of Microsoft.

    Ok ok, maybe you were talking about a new project being started today with VB6. And yeah, I'll admit that that's probably not the greatest decision. However, IMHO, if you intend to stick with Windows, it's probably not the worst either, especially if it merges well with your skill-set.

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  10. #170
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Desktop Windows as a niche product for basically legacy usage and perhaps as developer's workstations might be where things go. I can imagine it being priced a lot higher than people are used to now and OEMs wouldn't have much incentive to sell hardware with it preinstalled.

    Even a lot of development and "content creation" workers might end up finding themselves using some sort of smart terminal product that combines WinRT/UWP or HTML5 in Edge with server-based and cloud resources that do the heavy lifting. During the interim you might see UWP containerized versions of stuff that must run locally, but that would require heftier smart terminal hardware to be effective so it wouldn't be for everyone.

    I doubt we'll see some sort of SilverLight Resurrection though. I think that failure (probably for both practical and in-house political reasons) is part of what led to the rise of WinRT in the first place. That and the desire to get back into the mobile computing space after it evolved away from them.

  11. #171
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Not being considered much in this conversation is the enterprise investment that businesses have in MS products. One of my clients just purchased 21 laptops and 31 desktops (hard to call them that - they are so small they mount to the back of the monitors - about the size of an external CD drive). That was a $150,000 investment.

    That same client just received a quote for Windows Server Datacenter Licenses to create new 2016 O/S VM's - 30 2-core licenses - over $20,000. Yes 30 - they have that many WINDOWS O/S VM's running!

    Also ordered a new solid state SAN with special optimization software so some VM's can achieve spikes of up to 2000 IOPS. Another $25,000.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Oh well!

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Consider that Ford and GM are both downsizing or eliminating car product lines over the next few years to focus on the higher-profit truck and SUV market where they can still find some sales. There could be a day soon where a "domestic" label car will be a 100% Chinese made product.

    Agree or disagree, the plans seem to be entering the implementation phase now.

  14. #174
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'm not so sure.

    Since the dawn of computing, there has been a large contingent willing to say, "that's for the enterprise. Individuals will never need all of that." Every new x86 was sold that way. As it turns out, LOADS of individuals bought them, and eventually that large contingent learned to keep their yaps shut. Until now, that is, cause we're starting to hear it again about the desktop.

    Games drive computers. If you have something better to run them on than a desktop, then that thing will sell well. Consoles don't cut it. They're actually falling behind, especially since they can't keep pace with video card development.

    Heck, the ball mouse survived longer than it should have because of one particular type of game: Golf. If you broke one of the wheels on a ball mouse, you simply could not slice or hook a shot, since one axis of the mouse wasn't responding. There may well still be ball mice around simply because they gave computer golfers such a huge mechanical advantage.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Since Android derived from Linux can be the most popular mobile OS, it is also possible to develop a completely new Linux-based OS that can replace Windows and can run on a variety of platforms.

    In the early days, such an OS may lack development tools and applications, but if an excellent IDE based on the new OS emerges, a large number of applications will also appear. Just as VB3 and VB6 promoted Windows 3.x, Windows95 and Windows XP.

    Therefore, porting VB6 to Linux may be a good idea.
    Last edited by dreammanor; May 3rd, 2018 at 09:50 PM.

  16. #176
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Android isn't "derived from Linux." Linux isn't what you seem to think it is.

    What Android does (currently) use is the Linux kernel and some libraries created for use with Linux. They could rip that out and replace it with something else like OpenBSD components any day. They probably won't because it is so late in the day and the opportunity has sadly long passed. That would not only eliminate the fanboy claim that "Android is Linux" it would also be a far more secure mobile platform.

    I suspect they never did so mainly because (a.) the platform that become Android was already built around Linux pieces and parts, and (b.) hardware vendors barely support Linux drivers, let alone something rapidly dwindling to extreme minority status like the various BSDs.

    What most people think of as "Linux" is any of 40 billion different desktop and/or server OSs built using many of the same parts. But it is a fallacy to conflate Android with those at all.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    What Android does (currently) use is the Linux kernel and some libraries created for use with Linux.
    I know this, "derived from" is a misnomer. However, since Android uses the "Linux kernel", it also makes sense to say that Andriod is from Linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    (b.) hardware vendors barely support Linux drivers, let alone something rapidly dwindling to extreme minority status like the various BSDs.
    This may change if there is a huge Internet company to promote this matter (develop new OS and cooperate with more OEM manufacturers). As long as one big computer manufacturer (such as Lenovo) is convinced, things can be resolved.
    Last edited by dreammanor; May 3rd, 2018 at 10:24 PM.

  18. #178
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'm not all that sold on Android. It's ok, but nothing great from what I've seen. I wouldn't bet too heavily on it, though it seems likely to be the main mobile OS at this point.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    speaking of ripping the linux kernel out of android - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Since Android derived from Linux can be the most popular mobile OS, it is also possible to develop a completely new Linux-based OS that can replace Windows and can run on a variety of platforms.

    In the early days, such an OS may lack development tools and applications, but if an excellent IDE based on the new OS emerges, a large number of applications will also appear. Just as VB3 and VB6 promoted Windows 3.x, Windows95 and Windows XP.

    Therefore, porting VB6 to Linux may be a good idea.
    Your reasoning is bonkers

    There is a reason why Linux hasn't had more of an impact on the desktop market, for the average person buying a computer
    Windows is to complicated, Linux? you might as well ask them to do astro physics

    The large majority of the general public just want to be able to do word documents, send emails and browse the web.

    This is why Tablets have become so popular as they remove all the other difficult looking crap and allow the user to just poke things with there fingers and hey presto they open

    Porting VB6 to Linux would be a pointless excersice and considering the time it would take to do, We will all probably be programming for neural interfaces by then !!
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'm not all that sold on Android. It's ok, but nothing great from what I've seen. I wouldn't bet too heavily on it, though it seems likely to be the main mobile OS at this point.
    I think its fine to bet on either Android or OSX right now, they are likely to be the dominant mobile O/S for some time yet. They may not be perfect but if you want to make a native mobile app right now those are your only good choices.
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    this article does a good job explaining what is happening: https://arstechnica.com/information-...ally-happened/

    tldr: windows is now a collection of "cores" that lets it run in lots of different places. It no longer makes sense to have a "windows" group and the people are now working on the "cores". Desktop isn't going anywhere but will be less popular as a lot of people just need a capable webbrowser to live and work.

  23. #183
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    No, all that story describes is the death of Windows 9x and the death of Windows CE.

    So much for the worse actually. This is exactly how they managed to shut themselves out of both mobile and IoT. "Windows 10 IoT" is a joke, requiring far more hardware than would otherwise be neccesary, far more hardware than IoT devices normally have.

    If you think a Raspberry Pi is an IoT device you are wrong.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    It explains why the windows team is going away and why the desktop will be around for a long time

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    If you think a Raspberry Pi is an IoT device you are wrong.
    I don't remember commenting about either of these things. But the rpi can absolutely be an IoT device.
    Last edited by DllHell; May 4th, 2018 at 10:12 AM.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Component maybe, but not device.

    But so can a full blown monster gaming PC. That doesn't mean anybody will be putting them into heating thermostats, smart plugs, or robot vacuum cleaners.
    Last edited by dilettante; May 4th, 2018 at 10:29 AM.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    But people are already putting them into their homes, cars, businesses, etc. Just because it is "big" doesn't mean it can't be an IoT device.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    No, they aren't.

    IoT devices use microcontrollers, not full blown CPUs with GPUs and large RAM and local storage.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    For that matter Win 10 IoT Core is already being shelved. Microsoft is trying to replace it with something they call "Azure Sphere" that uses proprietary processors.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I'd agree that many applications would benefit from (or require) a microcontoller due to space and power limitations but there is no formal definition of an IoT device that includes a "microcontroller" clause.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Has anyone been looking at Dart, and now Flutter? Dart 2 is nearly out now and appears to give you a node.js-like environment without all of the problems of JavaScript.

    In case you haven't been watching:

    Announcing Dart 2: Optimized for Client-Side Development
    Last edited by dilettante; May 5th, 2018 at 09:25 PM.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Dart w/ Flutter for mobile development seems to be very similar to Ruby on Rails for web. A great framework to propel fringe language to stardom.

    Dart is very similar to VB6 (besides being fringe) in that it has two modes of operation -- JIT interpreted (so called "hot reaload") for faster REPL and full AOT compiled (AOT is to differentiate it from JIT compiled competitors).

    Dart evolution can be used as a roadmap for VB vNext IMO. Just find Google now to sponsor development :-))

    cheers,
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  32. #192
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    A downside of things like Electron is the amount of baggage they carry. The framework and runtime alone weighs in around 136MB last time I looked in addition to your code and resources, and this isn't designed to be installed once and shared but bundled within every app.

    I'm not sure they could produce anything that could select just what your program uses and bundle that selectively. Some of the pieces are just huge (like the HTML rendering engine) and the rest have been developed with no thought given to inter-dependency graphs. In this way it is like .Net where the libraries are like a bucket of night crawlers mating with each other indiscriminately. That's part of why we see so many gigantic .Net security patches every month.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    Dart evolution can be used as a roadmap for VB vNext IMO. Just find Google now to sponsor development :-))
    The headache with all things Google is lack of long term commitment. But no matter where you go you are unlikely to find a lot of long term stability, so you have to prepare yourself for churn.

    That is to be expected and the only exceptions might be the "one man show" platforms where the resources to flit from flower to flower don't exist. But in general the people used to scavenging off the corpus (and corpse) of VB6 are going to be frustrated. You just aren't going to find tons of old source code lying around on the web to cover every little scenario.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    I do like that Dart2 compiles to Native X86 and ARM, although I'm always skeptical of garbage collectors.
    The language is pretty decent too, learning from JavaScripts mistakes.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The headache with all things Google is lack of long term commitment
    I'm surprised they haven't released a competing framework yet. Maybe next week

  36. #196
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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Yeah it all makes me wonder.

    Google is supposed to be "enterprise friendly" but it is hard to see how considering the rate at which they abandon technologies with little or no notice.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Something that has been mentioned before, but may be worth repeating.

    If VB6 breaks beyond repair/hack and what broke it is caused by an underlying change in Windows, it would stand to reason that all other compilers would break as well. So if the Windows kernel changed so much that vb6 exe will not work, I would guess all others QT,Lazarus, Delphi, g++ etc would stop working as well.

    Thoughts?

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    QT isn't a compiler, just a widget library.

    Nobody seriously expects Windows to break VB6, more likely Windows will Just go away or be replaced by something that only runs "Store Apps."

    But it seems likely that anything the dooms VB6 programs will also doom programs created using the compilers you listed and more. Depending on what replaces Windows it might still be possible to run them in some sort of container VM such as Desktop Bridge/Centennial though performance might be awful if most people end up on ARM hardware.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by axisdj View Post
    Something that has been mentioned before, but may be worth repeating.

    If VB6 breaks beyond repair/hack and what broke it is caused by an underlying change in Windows, it would stand to reason that all other compilers would break as well. So if the Windows kernel changed so much that vb6 exe will not work, I would guess all others QT,Lazarus, Delphi, g++ etc would stop working as well.

    Thoughts?
    All of the other products you mentioned are still in active development so you would think the developers would be able to come up with workarounds to some problems. The type of event that would cause a break to that many products would be really catastrophic to windows and seems unlikely.

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    Re: How Many People are Sticking around Until the end of VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by DllHell View Post
    I'm surprised they haven't released a competing framework yet. Maybe next week
    Wait, Flutter *is* the competing framework -- Google already had the Android Studio/Java (now Kotlin) platform before they bought Flutter startup. . .

    cheers,
    </wqw>

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