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Thread: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    VB6 isn't in that index. Some people think the "Visual Basic" category is VB6, but it isn't. Tiobe is pretty clear about their methodology...though not TOTALLY clear, so you may have to read it twice. That category includes four things:

    Visual Basic
    VBA
    VB6
    VB

    They figure that Visual Basic might include some VB.NET, so they give it half of the returns from that one and from VB. A quick repeated sample suggests that both of those categories are actually 80% VB.NET and roughly 20% VB6 (slightly less, actually, as there were trace amounts of VBA in there, too).

    Far worse, though, is that the four categories don't contribute equally to the ranking. VBA makes up nearly 50% of the results, while Visual Basic (which is 80% VB.NET) makes up most of the rest. The two categories VB and VB6 are trivial in comparison.

    What that means is that, about half the ranking is VBA, most of the rest is VB.NET, and VB6 makes up between 10 and 20% of the ranking. So, VB.NET should have been ranked higher, and the Visual Basic ranking could then be called VBA+, though it would be lower. It's all there in the link to the methodology in case you'd like to replicate it. I only used Google Chrome, while Tiobe used a whole bunch of search engines. I doubt it makes much difference, though. Two categories account for the ranking, one of which is VBA, and the other is primarily VB.NET.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    Tools software like SolarWinds has some fixed enterprise markets, but their share of the entire software market is very small(less than 1%), and I don't even know SolarWinds is a big company. As for Kaseya, I have never heard of this company, only after searching the Internet did I know it. If you are developing this kind of software, it is really difficult to sell in the Chinese market. These softwares are often considered to be hacking software or rogue software that will be intercepted by security software. In our country, 99% of VB6 software that scans IPs or uses winsock or hooks will be blocked by security software.
    SolarWinds may have an entire software market share of 1%, but their annual revenue is around $500 million and they're a public traded company. And in 2011, they bought DameWare for $40 million in cash, which wasn't exactly a ground-breaking product. So I'd say SolarWinds is pretty big. And right, no one even bothers trying to sell software to China. Do software companies in China even try selling software to fellow Chinese companies? I used to want the Chinese to use my software to help its popularity since China has 1.3 billion people, but after I learned more about China on YouTube from people like SerpentZA, I realized I shouldn't even bother trying to add Mandarin as a language option.

    Quote Originally Posted by DEXWERX View Post
    Time to invest in some good marketing, you'll make back the money you spend on it.
    I totally agree, but I can't do it quite yet. Part of why my software is on page 3 for "IP Scanner" is that my software doesn't have the name "IP Scanner" in its name, but also because it's not free. So I don't want to do market too much until I have a free version available. Right now it is free for for only 50 devices tho. I won't be able to have a 100% free version available until it's greatly improved. BUT, once it gets there, you better believe I'll go crazy on marketing. It's kinda like dating. If you're fat, you may want to wait until you lose weight and become more attractive before really putting yourself out there.

  3. #43
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Since I'm not really in the job market, I'm not sure about that. As far as I can see, there are loads of LOB jobs that deal with mobile. I write things for mobile that are LOB stuff, and there are a fair number of jobs out there like that. Not in the hundreds of thousands, but probably in the thousands. Of course, the area is natural resources, which is pretty niche, but not a tiny niche.
    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm a contractor so I spend a lot of time watching the job market and my experience has been that traditional desktop roles have all but disappeared, whether that's for LOB or consumer apps. Consumer stuffs largely drifted over to mobile and LOB has moved to web (though typically intra- rather than inter- net). There's a healthy amount of cross-over between the two but no new projects are taking the traditional desktop approach.

    Fair disclosure, I'm primarily a C# man these days but I don't think this is a .Net vs classic issue, it's a platform issue.

    Personally, I just can't get my head round the flow layouts clients want on web and mobile (yeah, I get the principles, they just never seem to work properly for me) so NOBODY is interested in hiring me for UI work anymore. That's not really a problem for me as I can find plenty of backend (database) and middle-tier work. But I haven't touched a UI in well over 5 years now and that should tell you something: if your only skill is in traditional desktop development you should be looking over your shoulder. You don't need to panic and you've still got time to learn new skills but you'd damn well better start soon.
    I AM in the job market and here's what I'm seeing: NO one, and I mean NO ONE is looking for VB... of any kind. What is in demand, full-stack, and inevitably during every interview I've been on I get asked what my UI experience is... which unfortunately is crap because most of my experience has been desktop. I've lost out on four opportunities because of that. While I agree you shouldn't panic, I wouldn't assume you have more time. I thought I did. And then my employer informed me I didn't. I've been out now for 8 weeks. The bank account is getting smaller and I'm close to where some serious decisions are going to need to be made.

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  4. #44

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    SolarWinds may have an entire software market share of 1%, but their annual revenue is around $500 million and they're a public traded company. And in 2011, they bought DameWare for $40 million in cash, which wasn't exactly a ground-breaking product. So I'd say SolarWinds is pretty big. And right, no one even bothers trying to sell software to China. Do software companies in China even try selling software to fellow Chinese companies? I used to want the Chinese to use my software to help its popularity since China has 1.3 billion people, but after I learned more about China on YouTube from people like SerpentZA, I realized I shouldn't even bother trying to add Mandarin as a language option.
    1. In China, many companies have the ability to develop products like SolarWinds, but no company can rely on such products to feed itself, because this market has been destroyed by internet-flooded surveillance software, hacking software and rogue software 15 years ago. China's largest security software company used to be a rogue software company. So it is very important to choose a good software area(branch).

    2. China is the best software market in the world

    If your product is the top 2 products in the world, then you can get huge profits from here. If you could develop a game like "King of Glory", then your annual income will exceed 4 billion US-dollars. If you could develop a mobile communication software like WeChat 5 years ago, then Chinese companies will buy your product for more than 1 billion US-dollars.

    3. China is the worst software market in the world

    The competition here is extremely fierce, and it is full of piracy, plagiarism and counterfeiting, only the King of Kings can survive in the Chinese software market. If your software is only ranked third in the world, then your profit from the Chinese market will be very poor. If your product is personal software, then there is no possibility of survival in the Chinese market. So it's very sensible that you choose not to enter the Chinese market .

    Of course, if you think your product is the best in the world(No.1 or No.2), you can try to enter the Chinese market. Even if you don't get enough profits from the Chinese market, you can gain enough visibility and your products will be tested in full.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 11th, 2018 at 08:21 PM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    I AM in the job market and here's what I'm seeing: NO one, and I mean NO ONE is looking for VB... of any kind.
    Hey, I'm looking for great VB coders, I just can't pay much right now. I wish I would have networked with VB guys years ago and got some partnering going with one or two guys who were truly interested. Then maybe my company could have really gotten somewhere, rather than living on this stupid "island" I've been on for way too damn long and doing most everything myself. Sure, I get by on my commercial apps & I think I have some great ideas that could make a lot of dough, but just as you can't find any VB work, the list of really good Classic VB guys are dwindling fast, and I'm not getting any younger. I basically have no life outside of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    In China, many companies have the ability to develop products like SolarWinds, but no company can rely on such products to feed itself, because this market has been destroyed by internet-flooded surveillance software, hacking software and rogue software 15 years ago. China's largest security software company used to be a rogue software company. So it is very important to choose a good software area(branch).
    Although my software isn't so much security based, thanks for confirming what I already thought. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    If your product is the top 2 products in the world, then you can get huge profits from here. If you could develop a game like "King of Glory", then your annual income will exceed 4 billion US-dollars. If you could develop a mobile communication software like WeChat 5 years ago, then Chinese companies will buy your product for more than 1 billion US-dollars.
    Of course those are both made by Chinese companies, and very large ones at that. An American or any western software developer doesn't stand a chance marketing software in China, no matter how good it is. Way too many barriers, not to mention the massive language barrier. There are too many issues, from the language, to China requiring me to have a server in China, to allowing all access to my data and technology. No thank you. China is a world unto itself, at least for now. Heck, even foreigners (a white guy) is seen in China as a curiosity. They want to take pictures with you because they've rarely seen anything like you in person. Even if I had the greatest app in the world, a company in China could put 100 great coders on it and reverse engineer whatever I've made rather than buying my company, because labor there is so cheap and plentiful. So I'll be happy to stay off China's radar.

  6. #46

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    Of course those are both made by Chinese companies, and very large ones at that. An American or any western software developer doesn't stand a chance marketing software in China, no matter how good it is. Way too many barriers, not to mention the massive language barrier. There are too many issues, from the language, to China requiring me to have a server in China, to allowing all access to my data and technology. No thank you. China is a world unto itself, at least for now.
    Your remarks made me stunned. Many American and European excellent software companies can make a lot of money in China, as long as your software is good enough, for example, some big companies: Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, SAP, there are some small companies such as: Tableau, QlikView. As for why Google and Facebook cannot develop in China, that is another topic.

    Note: I've been developing software for enterprises for many years, and I know very well what products they have purchased.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    Heck, even foreigners (a white guy) is seen in China as a curiosity. They want to take pictures with you because they've rarely seen anything like you in person.
    I think you seem to be coming from the primitive society. If you come to China and visit several different places, you will know how ridiculous your speech is.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDude View Post
    Even if I had the greatest app in the world, a company in China could put 100 great coders on it and reverse engineer whatever I've made rather than buying my company, because labor there is so cheap and plentiful. So I'll be happy to stay off China's radar.
    10 years ago, Chinese companies liked to imitate foreign products, now the situation is different. On the one hand, they like to do their own products and creative products, on the other hand, if you have very creative products and technologies, Chinese companies are willing to spend 10 times the price to acquire it. If your product is good enough, I can help you promote your product in China. But from your narrow perspective, I don't think you can make a very good product.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 12th, 2018 at 07:07 AM.

  7. #47

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    I AM in the job market and here's what I'm seeing: NO one, and I mean NO ONE is looking for VB... of any kind. What is in demand, full-stack, and inevitably during every interview I've been on I get asked what my UI experience is... which unfortunately is crap because most of my experience has been desktop. I've lost out on four opportunities because of that. While I agree you shouldn't panic, I wouldn't assume you have more time. I thought I did. And then my employer informed me I didn't. I've been out now for 8 weeks. The bank account is getting smaller and I'm close to where some serious decisions are going to need to be made.

    -tg
    There are very few companies that recruit pure VB6 programmers. However, spending more time can still find a satisfactory VB6 job. After you get a new position, you may be able to use C# as your new programming language so that you can develop Web-Apps and Mobile-Apps in the future, which are needed by every company. Good luck.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Apr 12th, 2018 at 06:07 AM.

  8. #48
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    There are very few companies that recruit pure VB6 programmers. However, spending more time can still find a satisfactory VB6 job. After you get a new position, you may be able to use C# as your new programming language so that you can develop Web-Apps and Mobile-Apps in the future, which are needed by every company. Good luck.
    I never said anything about VB6 did I? I said VB. That includes any kind of VB, VB6 and VB.NET (which is where most of my experience is) ... but that's the problem... they don't want that... they want hard C# experience. They want hard Angular experience. They want hard JS and HTML and "yeah I've been doing full-stack development for the last 3+ years" experience. They want some one who can hit the ground running at the Six-Million Dollar Man speed, not jog along at Secret Service next to the limo speed. That's the barrier that I'm running into. It also doesn't help that I'm closer to the end of my career than I am to the beginning. I have been programming since I was about 8, I'm 45, and I've been doing it professionally for nearly 25 years... So I know they look at me and see that my shelf life is limited. I know they think "sure he could probably do it, but how long will he be with the company before retiring?" I know that has to be what's going through their minds. It has to because it goes through mine because I dread the "where do you see yourself in 5-10 years?" question. Because the answer is "I don't really know." Because the truth is that in about 7 years, both of my kids will be out of high school and into college, I'd like to sell the house, downsize, and take some of the money and "retire" into a food truck and have some fun. But I can't tell a prospective new employer that. And the longer I'm out of work, the more the savings dwindles, the less likely that's going to happen anyways. And that makes that 5-10 year projection even more fuzzy.

    -tg
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  9. #49
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I AM in the job market and here's what I'm seeing: NO one, and I mean NO ONE is looking for VB... of any kind. What is in demand, full-stack, and inevitably during every interview I've been on I get asked what my UI experience is... which unfortunately is crap because most of my experience has been desktop. I've lost out on four opportunities because of that. While I agree you shouldn't panic, I wouldn't assume you have more time. I thought I did. And then my employer informed me I didn't. I've been out now for 8 weeks. The bank account is getting smaller and I'm close to where some serious decisions are going to need to be made.
    Yeah, that pretty much mirrors what I'm seeing. Full stack is where it's at and when they say full stack they're referring to a web stack... maybe mobile... NEVER desktop.

    As I said, I do still get some middle tier but it tends to be quite specialist. It's often API design and/or delivering micro services and the like. And you damn well better know your good software engineering practices and principles. Being able to hack a solution to a problem isn't enough anymore. It better be robust, extendable and testable. And it really helps if you can quote your gang of four patterns by heart. Heck, you'd better live 'em.

    Most of what I get is DB. In fact, I'm now an official DBA rather than the accidental one I've been for most of my career. The last 3 or 4 contracts were database dev roles. Not just reporting (though I do still see a lot of those contracts) I've been building lots of data warehouses and doing lots of systems integration. This isn't the common or garden DB design and knowing how to write a query.

    So, yeah, there're still avenues to explore as desktop work dries up but you better make sure you're genuinely skilled and experienced in those avenues. Or you could learn enough web to call yourself "full stack".

    @TG, from what I've seen of your skills (through the filter of this forum) I think you'd cut it fine in middle tier if you can find any but I'd recommend looking for DB stuff (unless you're completely turned off by it). There seems to be plenty of that still around and I'm pretty sure your skill levels are high enough.

    Or there's always the taco truck. Nom nom nom.
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  10. #50
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yeah, that pretty much mirrors what I'm seeing. Full stack is where it's at and when they say full stack they're referring to a web stack... maybe mobile... NEVER desktop.

    As I said, I do still get some middle tier but it tends to be quite specialist. It's often API design and/or delivering micro services and the like. And you damn well better know your good software engineering practices and principles. Being able to hack a solution to a problem isn't enough anymore. It better be robust, extendable and testable. And it really helps if you can quote your gang of four patterns by heart. Heck, you'd better live 'em.
    If your area is API design, microservices etc then that also makes you a lot more valuable to companies looking at cloud technologies. Good clean architecture and the understanding of how to properly design and structure microservices is pretty much the difference between a cost effective and scaleable cloud solution and a failure.

    IT moves on, our skills might not always appear "current" but sometimes it is just a matter of selling ourselves correctly.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Pareto principle of a sort, though rather than 80/20 it may be more 90/10 or even 99/1.

    Point being there are always opportunities for the highly skilled and experienced. There are even (a very few) people making a good living building and restoring 19th Century wooden coaches and wagons.


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  12. #52
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    If your area is API design...
    Yeah, I think you're right. Honestly, I think the main reason I get more DB than API Design work is simply that there's already more of it on my CV. As a contractor you tend to get hired again for whatever you did last.
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  13. #53
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Dilettante has that right, as niches still exist. If you can find a niche that fits well, then you'll find that there are a fair number of them, they just might be scattered. I'm in a niche that likely exists in every state in the US, but with only a few employers per state, which means the total number of jobs is not all that high, and almost evenly scattered.
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    But from your narrow perspective, I don't think you can make a very good product.
    Challenge accepted.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Well I thought I'd stay away from this topic, but I've recently had a couple of interesting experiences that I thought might be worth sharing.

    I'm not in the job market, but I've had a couple of recruiters/head-hunters approach me on LinkedIn lately. Apparently there are some VB6 holdouts that are migrating legacy projects to C# and there was some interest in my profile. My C# knowledge is limited - and I let them know that - but for kicks I thought I'd run through the MS C# tutorials freshen up a bit since my last look at C#. It is all pretty straight forward stuff, and the language isn't too bad One imperative language is not so different from another after all, most of it is just getting used to the syntax and familiar with what is available in terms of native features.

    So I figured I'd download Visual Studio Community edition and try making a small C# project in my free time. Turns out I had installed it a while back but without the C# extensions, so it recommended running the VS installer. They even provided a handy link that launched the installer for me. So far so good (I thought). The installer said I needed to update to the latest version and even provided another handy button to click to perform the update. "Very smooth" I thought, "perhaps I've been too hard on MS & .Net"!

    After 10% or so of the download completed, the downloading stopped. Left it for a half hour or so while doing other things and it didn't progress at all so I clicked Cancel. After asking for confirmation, I click "yes"...but nothing happened. "Uh oh, here we go".

    I tried clicking "Cancel" and "Yes" a few more times, but still nothing. Let it sit for a bit, but nothing.

    So I ended the task (gasp!) and tried re-launching the installer. Now all I get is this lovely window:

    Name:  vsinstall.png
Views: 175
Size:  16.9 KB

    It was going so well, but I guess it's time to uninstall and re-install VS (fun way to spend a Saturday night!)
    Last edited by jpbro; Apr 14th, 2018 at 06:48 PM.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Saturday nights alright for fighting...with a VS installer.

    You said you had it a while back, but are upgrading to the latest version. That suggests that you are installing VS2017 and had something earlier. I've had very mixed feelings about the last few releases of VS. I kind of like the general idea that they are groping for, but am not so thrilled with the implementation. As with all things MS, the first version tends to be a bit...unstable. The problem is that both 2015 and 2017 have been the first version of something new. The new things from 2015 did get much better in 2017, with the result that the IDE has lots of nice features. Nice, graphically intensive, features that make VS load like a game (splash screens while graphical stuff is set up in the background). Unfortunately, VS has become so large that MS decided to do something really clever by splitting it into modules such that you only get the packages that you need. Unfortunately, that makes VS 2017 another first version.

    Just wait till next year!!
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  17. #57
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Give this a try: Visual Studio Uninstaller

    Uninstall the main program from Programs and Features, reboot and run this as administrator. You'll need to do it multiple times until it stops finding things to remove.

  18. #58
    Hyperactive Member Daniel Duta's Avatar
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreammanor View Post
    In our country, there is still a lot of space for growth in the software market, but the space left for Windows programmers is getting less and less.
    I am just curious about what country you talk because it is first time I hear such a tendency. I don't think it is case of Europe. If you feel a software market shrinking it is because of the poor demand of those companies that have managers who do not understand the programming possibilities and advantages.
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Duta View Post
    because it is first time I hear such a tendency.
    really? Haven't you noticed that the changes in the last 6 years are greater than those in the previous 20 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Duta View Post
    I don't think it is case of Europe. If you feel a software market shrinking it is because of the poor demand of those companies that have managers who do not understand the programming possibilities and advantages.
    If you think so, then keep your lifestyle and working style. Let time prove everything.

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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Microsoft is charging off over yet another cliff. They seem to be abandoning attempts at making the unwieldy Win10/.Net combination their IoT platform, and running away from the Intel they left in the lurch. Can you say Galileo, Edison, Joule? These all died off faster than a Nexus-6 replicant.

    Instead of something clever like breathing new life into the long-retired Win9x as an IoT platform running on cheap lightweight x86 SOCs they've headed down another blind alley.

    This time it'll be some new OS on top of a Linux kernel limited to running on proprietary chips and weighted down by Azure. This "Azure Sphere" appears to be yet another giant misstep, well placed to roll downhill into oblivion faster than even Windows 10 IoT Core rotted on the ground.

    This time for sure, er... for security. Yeah. Right.

    Hard to say whether this is any closer to reality than Google's Fuchsia OS efforts that go in a different direction. No idea what direction, but it doesn't sound like IoT or even "pretend IoT" like Microsoft's stumbling baggage-laden efforts. Yes, Google Is Running Fuchsia On The Pixelbook: Calm Down.

  21. #61
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I never said anything about VB6 did I? I said VB. That includes any kind of VB, VB6 and VB.NET (which is where most of my experience is) ... but that's the problem... they don't want that... they want hard C# experience. They want hard Angular experience. They want hard JS and HTML and "yeah I've been doing full-stack development for the last 3+ years" experience.
    Thats very true C# is were it is at job wise in the UK too. I thought you had C# experience Techgnome ? (and even if its not your main language i am sure you would have no problem developing in it)

    Yeah, that pretty much mirrors what I'm seeing. Full stack is where it's at and when they say full stack they're referring to a web stack... maybe mobile... NEVER desktop.
    Yep everyone wants web or mobile, (which is why 4 years ago i moved to a new job where i do 95% web and mobile development) This is a much bigger consideration if your looking to or are forced to hit the job market today.

    As a developer who works for companies (rather than for myself) i have always been conscious that my skills need to be up to date, (or alternately really really niche so your one of like 5 guys who knows some weird language. I have never had to learn one of those strange languages like BANCStar myself but i have worked at a couple of places where developers have found these niches.)
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Microsoft is charging off over yet another cliff.
    It must be a really really long cliff as according to your posts Dill they have been charging off it for several years now !
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  23. #63
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I feel like it's true if you make a small change: Windows is charging off a cliff and has been accelerating for years.

    The first misstep was spending so long developing Vista. It was worth it, but this taught users that they could count on any given version of Windows for at least a decade. This is a very nice promise to Enterprise. The current tech environment makes it a completely foolish promise. But, from a business standpoint, following-up a decade-long "stable" period with "New OS every other year" stings the user pretty hard.

    The next misstep happened slightly before Vista's release, when they let OEMs bully them into certifying inadequate machines for Vista. Bonus: they were successfully sued for letting the OEMs bully them. The end result is a lot of people bought machines with shiny Vista stickers that were NOT adequate for running Vista. Users started hating Windows upgrades here. Personally I think it would've been interesting to see MS call the OEM "We'll start selling Linux machines!" bluff. They knew what a disaster that would be for them and wouldn't have pulled the trigger.

    So now we have users that are upset and think upgrading Windows is a bad thing. MS follows Vista with Windows 7, which is actually a good thing. But almost everyone that loves Windows 7 today was, in context, holding on to XP and insisting they'd never upgrade. On Slashdot they were still making blue screen jokes. On VBForums it was UAC jokes. Both spoke loud and clear "I haven't tried a new version of Windows in at least 10 years." Regardless, this was user sentiment: "Even when you give me what I want, I don't want to upgrade to it."

    Windows 8 was $40. Windows 10 was free. Nothing can overcome the bad will that was generated in the Vista era. While the ship was listing, tablets and smartphones arrived and the torpedoes found purchase.

    The smartest moves MS ever made are when they started adjusting their strategy and making sure no profitable product has a Windows-only version a few years ago. It took them too long to realize that Windows meant "bad" to consumers, and that the consumer market was far less frugal than enterprise.

    We see some cracks in the Apple veneer now but it doesn't matter, the damage is done, and where people once considered the Windows look and feel "what computers look like", now the phone-motivated flat design is what people expect. It's all very similar to the success of the Wii (by recognizing there was a large untapped market who had different expectations of video games) and failure of the WiiU (by failing to recognize that market did not see value in frequent upgrades). Microsoft is in the middle WiiU phase now: the part where they release something really cool (Linux for Windows) while quietly arranging the end date for factory shipments.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  24. #64
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Microsoft is charging off over yet another cliff. They seem to be abandoning attempts at making the unwieldy Win10/.Net combination their IoT platform, and running away from the Intel they left in the lurch. Can you say Galileo, Edison, Joule? These all died off faster than a Nexus-6 replicant.

    Instead of something clever like breathing new life into the long-retired Win9x as an IoT platform running on cheap lightweight x86 SOCs they've headed down another blind alley.

    This time it'll be some new OS on top of a Linux kernel limited to running on proprietary chips and weighted down by Azure. This "Azure Sphere" appears to be yet another giant misstep, well placed to roll downhill into oblivion faster than even Windows 10 IoT Core rotted on the ground.

    This time for sure, er... for security. Yeah. Right.

    Hard to say whether this is any closer to reality than Google's Fuchsia OS efforts that go in a different direction. No idea what direction, but it doesn't sound like IoT or even "pretend IoT" like Microsoft's stumbling baggage-laden efforts. Yes, Google Is Running Fuchsia On The Pixelbook: Calm Down.
    As far as I can tell the Windows 10 IoT is still the same, it is just that it isn't suitable for smaller IoT devices, the linux based version is a lot more streamlined and specific so it will work on the much smaller devices better.

  25. #65
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    As far as I can tell the Windows 10 IoT is still the same, it is just that it isn't suitable for smaller IoT devices, the linux based version is a lot more streamlined and specific so it will work on the much smaller devices better.
    The problem is that "smaller IoT devices" are what IoT is all about - with only rare exceptions, and the Linux kernel isn't the best foundation for a real-time OS in the cases where OS-level software infrastructure is required.

    "Smart" light bulbs, power outlets, thermostats, heating and cooling equipment, indoor and outdoor weather sensors, audio speaker-amps, sensors for dampness or liquid levels, etc. don't need or benefit from the hardware required to run Windows 10 IoT. It can't really come into play until you get into the more ridiculous realm of refrigerators that maintain an inventory system or something. It might fit into devices like those roving mini vacuum cleaners but the innovation there has come and gone.

    Even when you look outside the home at things like industrial controller and automotive applications the smaller devices are most of the population. Those generally require few human inputs and when they do small LCD touchscreens can already be handled without some desktop OS designed around full keyboards, monitors, and hard drives.

    When you start thinking about the "spider in the web" that monitors and gathers data for analysis and presentation, where is Microsoft when it comes to MQTT, STOMP, AMQP, etc? By now you'd have expected MSMQ to have supported standard adapters for those IoT protocols... but all you get is .Net hobbyware libraries dumped onto open source repository sites.

    So instead you see Android or some cobbled up Linux used, because Microsoft missed this boat too.

  26. #66
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Thats very true C# is were it is at job wise in the UK too. I thought you had C# experience Techgnome ? (and even if its not your main language i am sure you would have no problem developing in it)
    Very much true, I don't really have a problem developing in it, but because it wasn't my main language, it tends to get overlooked. Part of the problem is that the SDK I had been developing against for the last 6 years didn't support C# until the last 1.5 years... and even then it wasn't much help because I was ofte working in projects that were already in motion where VB had already been selected as the language of record. Any chance I got to start something new in C#, I did. It just wasn't as often as I would have liked.

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  27. #67
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The problem is that "smaller IoT devices" are what IoT is all about - with only rare exceptions, and the Linux kernel isn't the best foundation for a real-time OS in the cases where OS-level software infrastructure is required.

    "Smart" light bulbs, power outlets, thermostats, heating and cooling equipment, indoor and outdoor weather sensors, audio speaker-amps, sensors for dampness or liquid levels, etc. don't need or benefit from the hardware required to run Windows 10 IoT. It can't really come into play until you get into the more ridiculous realm of refrigerators that maintain an inventory system or something. It might fit into devices like those roving mini vacuum cleaners but the innovation there has come and gone.

    Even when you look outside the home at things like industrial controller and automotive applications the smaller devices are most of the population. Those generally require few human inputs and when they do small LCD touchscreens can already be handled without some desktop OS designed around full keyboards, monitors, and hard drives.

    When you start thinking about the "spider in the web" that monitors and gathers data for analysis and presentation, where is Microsoft when it comes to MQTT, STOMP, AMQP, etc? By now you'd have expected MSMQ to have supported standard adapters for those IoT protocols... but all you get is .Net hobbyware libraries dumped onto open source repository sites.

    So instead you see Android or some cobbled up Linux used, because Microsoft missed this boat too.
    Like a lot of things from Microsoft at the moment Azure is where these things tend to be implemented, for MQTT it is supported by the IoT hub, AMQP is supported by Service Bus and Event Hubs.

  28. #68
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    Like a lot of things from Microsoft at the moment Azure is where these things tend to be implemented, for MQTT it is supported by the IoT hub, AMQP is supported by Service Bus and Event Hubs.
    But why?

    Perhaps the answer is simple. I suspect they have decided that subscription services in general are their future instead of selling operating systems and environmental software installed on customer hardware. Microsoft doesn't seem alone in this, but they are somewhat unique in discarding their existing business and customers to chase this alternative in yet another field already full of competition.

  29. #69
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    But why?

    Perhaps the answer is simple. I suspect they have decided that subscription services in general are their future instead of selling operating systems and environmental software installed on customer hardware. Microsoft doesn't seem alone in this, but they are somewhat unique in discarding their existing business and customers to chase this alternative in yet another field already full of competition.
    I imagine you are on the right track there, a subscription model to services is a constant revenue stream rather than a one off upgrade every few years or so (assuming the customer upgrades at all).

    Saying that though I wouldn't expect them to ditch selling OSs in the near future as Windows Server, SQL etc probably do bring in a lot of revenue and probably will for a fair few years to come. Given how the industry does seem to be looking towards the cloud more and more it would be remarkably short-sighted of them to not be investing in the cloud though.
    I am not sure how they are "...discarding their existing business and customers..." given they posted something like a 5% increase in Windows revenue recently.

  30. #70
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Well then I suppose we can also expect to see Microsoft tortilla chips and soft drinks soon too. After all those are growth areas and they'd be remarkably short sighted not to plunge in.

  31. #71
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I think the other biggest driver is that it makes it platform-agnostic... stuff in Azure just become end points that can be connected to by anything... it won't care if it's from a iMac, Windows desktop, a web server, or a web browser. From a management standpoint, it also helps that if I need to increase capacity for some reason, I can jsut login and do it, and then when the demand is over, I can spin down the capacity. If I was doing it all myself, that means finding hardware, getting it online, spinning it all up... and then what do I do with it when I'm done? So I don't see it as discarding existing customers and businesses, I see it as a way of offering more tools to allow them to do the things they want to do and not worry about the things they don't want/need to.

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  32. #72
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Well then I suppose we can also expect to see Microsoft tortilla chips and soft drinks soon too. After all those are growth areas and they'd be remarkably short sighted not to plunge in.
    Not a chance. Micro Chips is already a crowded field.
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  33. #73
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Well I did just buy a couple of these for some projects:


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  34. #74
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    So I figured I'd download Visual Studio Community edition and try making a small C# project in my free time.
    Big mistake! It works if you waste some time on the Internet to find out how, but it is ridiculously slow. Remember the old PowerBasic slogan, power without...? Visual Crap Community is Bloat Without The Power. Better get a simple editor that can run a batch file, and launch the compiler without this "IDE".

  35. #75
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Better get a simple editor that can run a batch file, and launch the compiler without this "IDE".
    <sigh/> Really?! I'm running various copies of Visual studio, some community, some pro (which is, of course, exactly the same software, the only difference being the licensing) and it runs absolutely fine and smoothly. You can choose not to use it if you wish but don't miss-represent it.

    Jpbro, I don't know what went wrong with your install and it's particularly troubling that it seems to be preventing further installation attempts. I'm in a similar position with SQLServer 2016 at the moment. I think my problem's something to do with the permissions on the App data folder so it's really a fault of Windows rather than SQLServer but the distinction's academic, it still means I can't update my development machine at the moment and am having to work on my laptop. It's very frustrating. I will say that I've contacted MS Support in the past with issues like this and found them helpful so that's probably worth a punt.
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  36. #76
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Hi Grant, Shaggy, FunkyDexter (and possibly others)...thanks for your input. I did eventually get things going on the weekend, and so far I can safely say that I don't hate C# or VS CE 2017 (which is more than I expected!). I haven't done enough with it yet to know if I actually like it, but the experience is much better this time around than the last time I tried it out some years ago. The 30+ gigabyte install for just the was a bit shocking (especially since I only a have 256GB SSD), but c'est la vie these days I guess.

    And sorry for taking so long to respond and giving such a content-free response - I've been up to my eyeballs lately!

  37. #77
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    The 30+ gigabyte install for just the was a bit shocking (especially since I only a have 256GB SSD)
    True dat! Worse, they seem to be moving towards a paradigm where their dev tools (sql server and visual studio) HAVE to be on the system drive. Or at least, large parts of them do. For those of us who've gone for a small SSD for the system and a large secondary data drive, that could turn into a nightmare.

    Glad you've managed to get it back up and running. I need to retry with SQLServer and will probably do it this weekend but I keep putting it off because I have an unpleasant suspicion that it might involve a complete Windows reinstall at this stage. Gah!
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  38. #78
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    <sigh/> Really?! I'm running various copies of Visual studio, some community, some pro (which is, of course, exactly the same software, the only difference being the licensing) and it runs absolutely fine and smoothly.
    <sigh/> Really! VC++ 2010 Express takes about 15 seconds to load itself, VS 2015 Community takes something between one (if in the cache) and three minutes, on a Core i5 with 4GB of RAM. Bloat Without the Power. And I am not the only victim here: Google claims to find 5 Millions hits for vs 2015 community slow

    In contrast, my editor loads itself and a 35,000 lines source in one second. That is acceptable.

  39. #79
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    In it's vanilla form it takes about 10 seconds - I'm not sat at home at the moment but I'll be more than happy to time it precisely this evening if you think it'll help. If you're experiencing load times running into minutes then you're probably looking at either:-
    1. A whole bunch of hungry extensions getting fired up. You can turn these off if you don't want them.
    Or
    2. Network issues connecting to either supportive services (source control etc.) or your Microsoft account. Check these services/connections are working correctly and not introducing unnecessary delays.

    But frankly it's a moot point. I fire it up once a day. I honestly wouldn't care much if it took a minute or so - particularly if that's because it's loading up a whole bunch of extra functionality I want to use.



    Edit>I'm home now so I tried opening VS 2017 Community. Time to open to the start page: 3 seconds. I then opened a fairly typical but admittedly small MVC solution: 7 seconds. Obviously, the second part of that could vary wildly depending on the size of the solution. I don't currently have 2015 installed but I honestly don't remember it being any slower. If it is, upgrading is free.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 20th, 2018 at 08:23 AM.
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  40. #80
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    Re: Windows department disappears from Microsoft.

    I don't think I've ever tried just opening VS2017. I'm always opening a project, and off of a spinning platter, at that. The load times are pretty long on that system. I've never timed them because I don't care. The second project to load takes only a couple seconds, tops, so the cost of the initial load doesn't mean anything much to me. VS2015 and 2017 made the IDE much more gaphically intensive. Once the program is up, it runs smooth, but the load time can be lengthy. What does that sound like (a graphically intensive program that takes a longish time to load but runs smoothly once loaded)? Yeah, VS has the performance profile of a game. Rogue loads in a second, Skyrim takes longer. Do people stick with Rogue because of the load speed, or do they accept the load speed for the performance once load is complete?

    I still think VS2010 was the best IDE MS has made, but there certainly are some nice features to the 2017 IDE. I make use of those features, and do appreciate having them, but they come at a cost. Oh well.
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