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Thread: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

  1. #41
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    I'm curious about what you mean by this because I have a project that let's you code in VB and output to the browser easily using the FastCGI protocol. It's even open source which seems to be the big requirement around here... LINK: https://github.com/jpbro/VbFcgi

    What it doesn't do is get your usercontrols and forms onto the web though, so if that's what you are looking for then I can't help. But if it's just to be able to code in VB6 and deliver data to a browser, then maybe?
    I don't want to carry forms and usercontrols to a web site.
    What I would like is to have is an environment, may be similar as it was ASP, where I could write modern web pages.
    Something like PHP but with the VB syntax.

    I'm planning to start studying how to write modern web sites in may be a couple of months.
    If you say I could use your project, I'll check it.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    All these words murdered on whether it's ok to use the closed source RC-5 yet still no persuasive argument about why it should be closed source to begin with.

    Basically, the only argument I've heard you make is that for some reason posting the source requires you to provide support to build it or maintain a git and manage contributions, despite no one making the argument that you'd have any such obligation.
    I think it's really more about maintaining control. You absolutely have the right to do that if you want, but I have right to speak my opinion too. Being closed source in and of itself, as well as issues derived from that (like support; even assuming you don't get hit by a truck tomorrow, answers take days for a reply instead of a 2 minute glance at the code) and the lack of business case like MS has for their libraries, are holding back your amazing work from its full potential.

  3. #43

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post

    I'd consider Delphi (as well as Lazarus) as being "more capable" - did you not make an attempt with these as well, some time ago?

    Yes We worked for about 2 months on a port to Delphi. The main reason was for cross platform compatibility and their firemonkey framework is a disaster at that. It was just too much unknowns and very little support.

    At the time I wanted to use Lazarus, but everyone I spoke said use Delphi instead. Well I now realize that was the wrong approach the delphi cross platform support is a band aid at best. Thinking now I should have gone with my gut and made a go at Lazarus.

    Having said that some of the code we wrote will port, so I think I will give Lazarus a go and see how far we get, we have a couple of months to try it.

    Thanks for you input Olaf. The whole lack of OOP support and the the crazy event loop in PureBasic would become a nightmare in my large applications. Too bad.
    Last edited by axisdj; Jan 18th, 2018 at 11:55 PM.

  4. #44
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by fafalone View Post
    All these words murdered on whether it's ok to use the closed source RC-5 yet still no persuasive argument about why it should be closed source to begin with.
    I think that conversation has already happened a few times. Maybe you haven't been persuaded, but I don't think that means the answers haven't been persuasive.

    I'm writing my interpretations of other people's comments re: open-sourcing RC5, so if I am wrong I apologize and will happily edit this part:

    * Tanner_H runs one of the biggest open source VB6 projects that I know of, and he basically said "don't bother".
    * In this very thread Olaf said that his main fear is that opening things up too early has destroyed (or almost destroyed) projects in the past and he doesn't want that to happen again.

    The only "persuasive" argument I've seen about opening the source is "because I won't use it without the source". And yet the people who parrot this sit on a massive stack of closed source stuff. "Oh but that stuff is from Microsoft!" - yes, that wonderful company who ditched our favourite language, "stole" the name to create "Visual Fred" (as Dilettante likes to call it), and continues to force people into increasingly privacy-invasive OSs (but look out Olaf might be stealing your data!), and broken updates.

    For me, here's the bottom line: We've all sunk a fantastic amount of time, effort, and code into VB6. We've tried other languages/platforms and none of them have struck that "secret chord" that makes us fall in love with a programming language. We're the last of the last, and we're stuck in some kind of software-limbo trying to figure out what to do next before the bell chimes (or if we're old enough, just give up). RC5 has personally given my software a bit of a reprieve and I think it's the last and best chance for a true successor to the language we love (and in some ways are hostage to). It's not a guaranteed success, nor is it a perfect solution for everyone. Heck, I think the odds are stacked against success, but as I'm sure I've said before, I'm a fighter and a sucker for the underdog

  5. #45
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I don't want to carry forms and usercontrols to a web site.
    What I would like is to have is an environment, may be similar as it was ASP, where I could write modern web pages.
    Something like PHP but with the VB syntax.

    I'm planning to start studying how to write modern web sites in may be a couple of months.
    If you say I could use your project, I'll check it.
    Thanks for the clarification .

    With VbFcgi you can write all the serverside stuff in the VB6 IDE, and there's now even a way you can write template ".VBML" files to make most of the HTML stuff in your favourite editor but add special tags to pull dynamic data from the VBFCGI app...but you can't do things like debug live web pages in the IDE. It might be worth giving it a try though - I'm open to suggestions for improvements, and since it's open source you could even theoretically implement stuff yourself and make pull requests for me to merge into the project.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Like axisdj, I also make all my living with my apps written in VB6. I'm sitting here reading all this tonight and it's got me pretty depressed, and a little scared. The only two languages I've considered are *GULP* VB.NET and *SHUDDER* C#, mostly because they're supported by a huge company, are a lot more mature than they used to be, there's a lot of coders available for hire (at least on C#), and Xamarin can be used to go cross-platform. I can't think of anything else that's viable. But the thought of trying to convert my software to either language turns my stomach. The sheer amount of re-learning at 47 years old and the work involved is daunting to say the least.

    I know one thing though. The talent in these forums are far beyond anything I feel I could achieve and I hate seeing great coders argue and not get along. And I don't know what most of your "day jobs" are, but I can imagine the millions that could be made if it was all concentrated into something bigger than anyone could do alone.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I hope Olaf will finish and release his ide/compiler, and I hope its like he wrote, as close possible to vb6 + additional components to make it easier for us.
    that will be the time I will migrate, right now I will stick with VB6 and I will not use his RC5 for various reasons. not because its bad, but because its not the right time for me. maybe once done with the project im working I could take a look.

  8. #48
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    Thanks for the clarification .

    With VbFcgi you can write all the serverside stuff in the VB6 IDE, and there's now even a way you can write template ".VBML" files to make most of the HTML stuff in your favourite editor but add special tags to pull dynamic data from the VBFCGI app...but you can't do things like debug live web pages in the IDE. It might be worth giving it a try though - I'm open to suggestions for improvements, and since it's open source you could even theoretically implement stuff yourself and make pull requests for me to merge into the project.
    Thanks. I have in mind to start studing web development in a short time. It doesn't mean that I don't know anything (I made several web sites already), but I think I need to begin studing from the start. So I guess I'll have to read some books and/or tutorials.

    My goal would be to make web sites that are actually programs, even when I realize that the browsers were not designed for that purpose in the first place and have limitations in that regard, it seems to be the trend now.
    Instead of programming for desktop in VB6 they would be applications that run on a web browser.

    I'll have to understand a lot of things: CCS, HTML5, Etc.
    As I said, I would like to use BASIC for programming, but at first, I guess, I'll have to learn with something else.

    The problem is that when I watch at the ugliness of HTML and PHP, I love VB more and more.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by fafalone View Post
    I think it's really more about maintaining control.
    Absolutely right.
    I have to, because the RC5 is only one part (one cog in a larger "gear box").

    To achieve the goal of a new VB, every part has to fit - and I have absolutely no doubt what
    would happen, should I open the RC5 to the public now.

    Baka for example would just love to "rip out" a few rendering classes, adding a few things -
    then compiling his own "better version" (more oriented to gaming-scenarios) - and encourage
    younger developers to use that instead ("look, it's much smaller than the original" - sorry Baka,
    in case that hypothetical scenario is "too far off", but I don't think so).

    The result:
    Now we have a split code-base (with incompatible interfaces, bug-reports for one part not that easily
    recognized and reflected in the other part).
    Such effects will cascade - and the next young "game-developer" who is talented enough, will then
    come up with "his own idea of nice gaming-widgets" (probably not even knowing, where 99% of the source
    for his game-engine originated from, and that such Widgets already exist, in much better incarnations).

    Then look at Eduardos comments, who's absolutely convinced that the RC5-Class-Interfaces are of "totally wrong design".
    He would probably start to put RC5-Class-Code back into *.bas Modules, to be "more like original basic".
    There we have the next scattering-effect - and the next set of incompatible "basically RC5-based" code-examples,
    which will float around in the forums after some time.

    Now, if the question arises "which GUI should we use, to implement a new IDE", some will probably
    "vote" for "the Baka-engine" - some old-style guys who "never had some real use for Classes" -
    will perhaps favour Eduardos approach to things, and so on.

    As a result, probably nothing serious will happen - too much diversification, too many opinions
    about "the right way to go about it" - well, that's the "FreeBasic having no decent GUI"-effect I was already mentioning.

    In the end it all boils down to "stable interfaces" and "stable behaviour behind these interfaces".
    That's what we rely on in our little msvbvm60.dll, and which enabled the community to "share compatible sources".

    The new compiler will have (in addition to the original VB-Runtime-Functions) a larger, modern Class-framework
    in addition (RC5-based, because that is needed not only to support "modern-stuff", but to become platform-independent) -
    a new IDE which aims to be portable between Windows and Linux cannot use Win32-APIs
    (besides a handful of exceptions, separated by compiler-conditionals).

    So, the platform- and system-specific APIs have to be "encapsulated away" in that Class-Runtime - and
    it needs to be as stable as msvbvm60.dll is today (interface-wise and implementation-wise, the RC5 aims for that).

    As long as that is not understood (and it obviously isn't by the majority of the VB-community), I have to keep
    the sources closed (to maintain that interface- and implementation-stability which is needed in the long run).

    Do you understand what I just wrote, or do I have to "murder even more words"?
    Why do you even make such deprecatory statements in a thread which discusses the survival of the language you love and currently use?
    What is your plan to ensure the continued existence of that language?
    Are you willing to help people, who have already invested years to ensure its survival?

    If you are not willing to help, fine by me - but then have at least the common decency to:
    - not make any demands
    - not join with those community-members who try to actively hinder the project in a "dog in the manger" like fashion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_in_the_Manger

    Olaf

  10. #50
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    The most successful OS and the most successful language on the planet are both open source, and both basically written by the same two guys. Just saying.

    p.s. I'll let people figure out what they are.
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  11. #51
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    This is the message I wrote yesterday (originally I didn't want to send out). I posted it today just to express my viewpoint. I benefited a lot from vbForums, thanks to all the enthusiastic people who helped me.

    IMO, it would be a disaster if RC5 is opened the source code now.

    I'm thinking about some questions below:

    1) Who do you think can contribute to the RC5 code?
    There are many VB technical experts on vbForums, but their technology can not be applied to RC5.

    In addition, if RC5's source code is C or C ++, then RC5 open source or not has nothing to do with most of us.

    2) How to unify participants' coding-style?

    3) How to avoid Olaf being disturbed by too much chores.
    If multiple people participate in the development of RC5, Olaf will spend more time to check, modify and review the code of others.

    4) How to manage the source code?
    If we use GitHub to manage the source code, it will definitely cost Olaf more time.

    5) How to maintain the stability of RC5?
    One of the important reasons why many people use RC5 is because RC5 is very stable. If many people participate in the development of RC5, RC5 version compatibility may be broken, RC5 stability will be greatly reduced.

    6) How to unify many people's different viewpoints?
    From this thread you can see that it is too difficult to unify the views of everyone.

    7) Do we know what aspects of RC5 need to be improved?
    One of the important reasons for open source is that others could offer better solutions than Olaf. But who can now propose a better solution than Olaf?

    Perhaps Cairo.Drawing and RC5 usercontrols are places that need to be improved.

    Cairo.Drawing is very powerful, but its usage is completely different from VB6 and GDI, which greatly increases the difficulty of using RC5.

    Fortunately, RC5.vbWidgets is open source, and if someone develops a RC5 UserControls library that is fully compatible with GDI and VB6 common-controls based on Cairo.Drawing or the source code of vbWidgets(just like Krool's VBCCR), that will greatly increase people's interest in using RC5.

    In my opinion, the best VB common-controls library should be like this:
    [1] Absolutely safe in the vb6-IDE
    [2] Use Cairo.Drawing
    [3] Has the same interface as VB CommonControls
    [4] Support DUI and XML, just like DuiLib
    [5] If possible, it is best to support HTML5

    Since many people struggle with the open-source of RC5, it is better to work together to write a set of really useful and open-source VB common-controls library based on Cairo.Drawing of RC5.

    Originally, I was able to do this, but I'm no longer doing windows desktop development, and fully turn to the development of web-app and cloud-database (which is new to me). I'll be very busy in these two years. After I finished my Web project, I can certainly make some contribution for RC5, believe me.

    I'm not a technical expert, but I know how to design a simple, easy-to-use, stable and flexible product, and I also know what tools VB developers like.

    During my 24-years local database development, I used ADO for 22 years, DAO (Access DB) for more than 13 years, and SqliteDB for 9 years. I told you my personal experience, only one reason to use RC5 is enough, and that's SqliteDB. Because Sqlite DB is one of the best products on this planet, RC5 provides excellent support for SqliteDB. Database operations library is easy to stabilize and there is no need to open source. Since you can use closed-source ADO, you can also be confident that the closed-source RC5. I like ADO, but I also like RC5. ADO represents the past, RC5 represents the future.

    In fact, RC5's other functions are also very nice, such as RC5 collection, once you used it, you can no longer be inseparable from it. Just as Olaf said, "feeling comfortable with something" comes with "using that something for some time".

    Now I'm learning web programming knowledge, such as http, nginx, html5, javascript, web-api, Olaf's RC5(web-related part), jpbro's FastCGI, of which RC5 and jpbro's FastCGI are my focus.

    I chose RC5 as my tool for using SqliteDB, which is one of my best choices. I firmly believe that choosing RC5 and jpbro's FastCGI as my tool for developing web-app will be also one of my best choices.

    If more and more people use RC5, then open source or not is not a pressing issue.

    Now more and more people have started to use RC5, I hope LaVolpe, dilettante and others who are suspicious of RC5 will take the time to try RC5, it's a very worthwhile thing to do.
    Last edited by dreammanor; Jan 19th, 2018 at 12:03 PM.

  12. #52

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Here is a thought.

    What if Olaf took a managerial type stance. He hands out Little jobs for each (willing and able) participant and then puts it together.

    I think this approach would accelerate the pace, but not sure the egos in the room would allow it.

    I have personally found this to work when I hire help. I have them do what they are good at, then I am the one that implements it in the main project. Sped up my release date by a year and with less bugs.

    Olaf, what if you break down what needs to be done in the order it needs to be done, and then maybe break up each of those as list of things that need to be done.

    Then people here can take each part and get it done.

    I know some coders are better than others (i suck compared to some of you) but at least we can move forward faster.

    Thoughts?

  13. #53
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    I think Olaf should do what Olaf is doing. I'd be amazed if any other course of action didn't cause him to yank his hair out in short order. You don't just have to have the willingness, you have to have the personality for such a thing. Most of us are introverts to begin with, so collaborative approaches may not hold any appeal. Beyond that, no two people will be on the same page for very long.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I think Olaf should do what Olaf is doing. I'd be amazed if any other course of action didn't cause him to yank his hair out in short order. You don't just have to have the willingness, you have to have the personality for such a thing. Most of us are introverts to begin with, so collaborative approaches may not hold any appeal. Beyond that, no two people will be on the same page for very long.
    My employees were level 10 introverts.

    I am speaking about each person doing a MICRO job.

    WP

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Hi,

    some inappropriate statements between fellow programmers here,
    I'm not going to comment on.

    not really mentioned is, what Programming Language are you going to use if VB6 really dies ??

    with each Update for Win10 there always seems to be a problem somewhere,
    so M$ doesn't really care about the problems VB6 Developers have.
    It is a shame since M$ did make good money with VB6

    so perhaps you could comment on which way you are going to
    go when there will be more and more problems with each Win10 Update release.

    are you going to turn to .Net or ????

    regards
    Chris
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
    since 2010 the number of Tigers are rising again in 2016 - 3900 were counted. with Baby Callas it's 3901, my wife and I had 2-3 months the privilege of raising a Baby Tiger.

  16. #56
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
    so perhaps you could comment on which way you are going to
    go when there will be more and more problems with each Win10 Update release.

    are you going to turn to .Net or ????
    Jumping back into bed with Microsoft after how they've treated the VB6 community reeks of Stockholm Syndrome...but they have a near monopoly on business desktops which is where most of my market is...Apple seems to be increasingly distancing themselves from "work" computers, so I don't think there's a saviour there. My hope beyond hope is that there is a viable cross-platform solution that minimizes the pain of moving existing VB6 code, but even a Windows only solution would be enough for me for now (with cross platform stuff to come later in order to open up new opportunities and stay flexible with regard to market changes). This is why I want to get started on the larger RC5 ecosystem as I think it is our best hope.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    well, me, i would not start to compete with Olaf, of course, why should i? im not on a par with him, and even so, its not "my mission" to create dll's, ide's or compilers.
    i would just use the parts that i need in my "private" projects, same with LaVolpe's classes, it would be crazy to start a project to show off that im better then him. and why? thats the main question really.
    of course, sometimes in replies here, i could share my "own" discoveries, but its never a full project, its just pieces and single functions mostly.
    with Olaf's part, i would look how it is done and take the part i need and thats it. it will never be to create my own webpage and start sharing "baka's engine"! it would be plane stupid of me.
    if i did have that expertise i would make my own projects without the need of Olaf to begin with.

    and if i would get a DLL that is a part of RC5 just for my own needs, that DLL will just be part of that project, its not intended to be used with other projects unknown to me.
    and if, some dude somewhere would start using it, it's not that it would be a crisis. Olaf's RC5 will still be the "original" and most used. we can not control what people do, someone could hack Olafs DLL if they want, the question is why?

    i don't think we need to panic, Olaf is on a mission and if he want it closed, so be it, if he open it, im sure nothing would happen, the only thing is that we all can learn from it, im sure we will use part of it, but in the end, Olafs project is the original one and nothing can change that. a lot of projects are open and like some of you say, nothing happen, contrary, it grow and get better. but its Olafs projects not ours so he can do what he want with it and no matter what he do, i hope he success with it, why wouldn't i? it would benefit me and a lot of us.

    right now, if i want to go beyond gdi i need to find open sources, because i want to "learn" not just "use". i want to see how "I" can make my own functions, good or bad, its a way to grow and experiment and its fun. maybe not the best, maybe crap, but still its how i want to do it. its open source that i learn from, without that i would be clueless. this forum we share and help each other, and its not by sharing compiled dlls, its by sharing examples and sources. is that bad?

  18. #58
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    Jumping back into bed with Microsoft after how they've treated the VB6 community reeks of Stockholm Syndrome...but they have a near monopoly on business desktops which is where most of my market is...Apple seems to be increasingly distancing themselves from "work" computers, so I don't think there's a saviour there. My hope beyond hope is that there is a viable cross-platform solution that minimizes the pain of moving existing VB6 code, but even a Windows only solution would be enough for me for now (with cross platform stuff to come later in order to open up new opportunities and stay flexible with regard to market changes). This is why I want to get started on the larger RC5 ecosystem as I think it is our best hope.
    VB6 still works on Windows 10 and VB6 apps will still run on Windows 10, that is 12 years after the product officially left support and about 9 years after the product officially left extended support, that seems a pretty decent way to treat people. I can't think of many pieces of software that were released pre 2000 that I would still expect to be supported by a vendor, I would be pleasantly surprised if software that old still ran on a modern OS at all.

    I know the feelings of a lot of people here are against .Net and see VB.Net as some form of treachery but things do come to an end and although I no longer do anything with VB6 I personally thought the changes at the time were worthwhile and 17 years of development later I do honestly think the .Net platform is worthwhile and far superior to VB6. If you had asked my opinion of VB 20+ years ago I was a massive fan of VB3, 5 and 6 (not 4, that was a mess) and certainly better than things that had gone before. However things change, companies move on and need to make money and our old favourites eventually stop being supported.

  19. #59
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Problems in Open Source tells a tale that is all too familiar. This is a path I have been down myself.

    "Formal" open source is great if you are living off your parents, research grants, are independently wealthy, or... as in many cases you are subsidized by some major corporation with devious goals of undermining competitors or just avoiding taxes, regulations, and corporate liability.

    Anything else such as hobby-produced or "sideline" or "by product" open source may as well be given away as either public domain or with the most generous open source license terms available. You are going to have an impossible time maintaining any control over the direction or quality anyway.

    You are lucky when people don't just take your name off the code and slap their own on it. If you are really lucky they might leave your name buried in a comment here or there, which is about the most you can expect considering how sleazy many "programmers" are about this sort of thing. Often enough somebody will just hijack your code or the algorithms and concepts behind it (sometimes even the name of the software) and post their own rendition of your work someplace else as open source and take the credit for it. Why do the necessary R&D yourself when you can steal it, eh? After all, scruples are for suckers.


    My point being that I can sympathize with anyone who chooses not to release the source code for anything non-trivial, assuming it isn't misappropriated open source. A lack of proper documentation is another story though.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jan 19th, 2018 at 12:05 PM.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    guilty... (not of stealing) but the general sentiment, and of lack of documentation.
    Imagine what it would be like to set breakpoints in, or step through subclassing code;
    and then being able to hit stop/end/debug or continue, without crashing the IDE.

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  21. #61
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    Jumping back into bed with Microsoft after how they've treated the VB6 community reeks of Stockholm Syndrome...but they have a near monopoly on business desktops which is where most of my market is...Apple seems to be increasingly distancing themselves from "work" computers, so I don't think there's a saviour there. My hope beyond hope is that there is a viable cross-platform solution that minimizes the pain of moving existing VB6 code, but even a Windows only solution would be enough for me for now (with cross platform stuff to come later in order to open up new opportunities and stay flexible with regard to market changes). This is why I want to get started on the larger RC5 ecosystem as I think it is our best hope.
    I don't agree with the first statement, but Plausibly Damp covered my point, and likely did it better than I would. I'd add that there isn't anybody out there with a BETTER track record than MS has with VB6...and VB.NET, for that matter. My understanding is that Delphi has made a few breaking changes to that language over time, Java has a fairly sordid track record (possibly due to peevishness between companies), and Apple has freely cast off from its past a couple of times. So, while people may well be miffed at what MS has done with VB6....is there anybody better?

    And that's the bigger problem, from my perspective. I will probably spend the rest of my career in VB.NET and JavaScript/Cordova, but that's largely because my career is likely not to need to go all that much further, at which point I'll retire to the woods and find a moose to talk to. In a way, that's a relief. Looking at the landscape, it's easy to see nice languages out there, but when I look for languages that seem likely to remain a going thing for the long term...that's pretty empty. If you are willing to stick with Apple, you might have a good decade or more before they abandon Swift. You have at least that much for .NET, but almost the same may work fine with VB6. However, JS doesn't seem likely to remain as it is for that long (it's a language to swear at, rather than by), and replacements for it are already starting to emerge. What else is there?

    If I were starting out on a career, and wanted to pick the language that I could work with for the length of my career....I'd go hide under the bed.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Actually, all things considered VB6 has had a very decent run. It is hard to complain if it eventually dies for good, though it will be a disappointment.

    People are just getting complacent. Few programming systems have ever had the kind of stability that VB6 has aside from some Cobol and Fortran implementations that focused on batch and green-screen programming.

    Personally I am very happy that with a few touches here and there the VB6 tools still install and work even on the latest Windows 10. Even the tweaks required so that your programs can deal with changes and a lot of new features are pretty minor.

    The downside of such stability is... the stability. You just don't get easy access to new things, and some new things are almost impossible to to use without helper DLLs written in C or C++ or something. You don't get language improvements (even something useful like more generalized escaping in String literals, or a Byte array Const type accepting a literal in hex).

    But you deal with it or you can cry about it.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    ...im sure we will use part of it, ...
    ...no matter what he do, i hope he success with it, why wouldn't i? it would benefit me and a lot of us.
    See baka, what you wrote above is exactly the stance (shared by a lot of other members in this forum) which will not help.

    Nowhere in your larger posting did I find a single thing, which suggests that you would help me along with the project,
    which - as you write: "would benefit me and a lot of us".

    All I see is: "...im sure we will use part of it..."

    This is neither helping me, nor is it helping you - (since you'd be "wasting your time", when you bother with the implementation-details of the RC5).
    The RC5 will be opened, after the new IDE and compiler are finished - not before.

    As for "learning things"...
    Wouldn't it be equally worthwhile for you as an aspiring developer to learn:
    - "how to write a decent IDE"
    - "how to write an Alpha-Widget supporting Form-Designer" (I'd guess that's more to your interest)

    All that is stuff you could learn by looking at "open VB6 sources, which work on top of the existing RC5 as it is",
    and by doing so you would (at least indirectly, if you not contribute to those sources) already help the project
    and the community with that larger goal (making the language and its extended runtime independent from MS).

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    ... its open source that i learn from, without that i would be clueless.
    this forum we share and help each other, and its not by sharing compiled dlls, its by sharing examples and sources. is that bad?
    The RC5 is not "your usual Dll" which covers a single topic.
    It's a larger Framework in the true sense (functionality-wise on par with GTK+ or QT for example - but only "a third as large" as those binary-wise).

    If you find (and learn from) "Open Sources" for DirectX or Direct2D for example,
    then you are only parsing "code-examples, which work on top of those closed libraries".

    If you learn from "Open Sources" for the RC5, you will also parse examples, which work on top of that (currently) closed library.
    If you want to take a peak at a lot of RC5-based Alpha-Widget-Implementations for example - these are sitting in this public Repo:
    https://github.com/vbRichClient/vbWidgets

    And no, I have absolutely no problem, when you include these sources (as Private Classes) directly into your own Projects
    (same goes for RC5-examples I posted here in this forum).

    Olaf

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    VB6 has had a great run no doubt, and I'm grateful for it...my problem with MS is that they essentially abandoned such a hugely popular language. We wouldn't be here having these arguments if there had been a true VB7 (or at least a true upgrade path from VB6 to .Net) years ago.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Then look at Eduardos comments, who's absolutely convinced that the RC5-Class-Interfaces are of "totally wrong design".
    He would probably start to put RC5-Class-Code back into *.bas Modules, to be "more like original basic".
    What could have led you to think that from my comments, is beyond my understanding.

    What you said there, seems to me as a straw man argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    There we have the next scattering-effect - and the next set of incompatible "basically RC5-based" code-examples,
    which will float around in the forums after some time.
    Do you believe that everyone that doesn't like something will publish a modified version and start competing with the original?

    I think you should think of that project more as like the Mozilla project. Do you think that they are afraid that someone could fork the Firefox project, make another version and cofuse the people?

    But seeing how the things are... may be it's better that you keep it closed source.
    In my opinion, being open source need to be accompanied of being open minded.

    If you don't even consider the arguments that other people (trying to help) expose, you are not ready to lead a team where some other people can have some good idea that it wasn't yours.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Now, if the question arises "which GUI should we use, to implement a new IDE", some will probably
    "vote" for "the Baka-engine" - some old-style guys who "never had some real use for Classes" -
    will perhaps favour Eduardos approach to things, and so on.
    Keep insulting. That's your usual way of leading a conversation that intended to be productive...

    More info:
    Straw man fallacy.
    Ad hominen argument.

    And you call other people arguments "emotional". But it is you the one that seems emotionally biased.

    I've never read from you "you are right" or "you may be right" or "I'll consider what you say". Never.
    When you have no argument, you start attacking with insults and fallacies.
    That has happened time over time over time, again and again.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    for me RC5 is new, i tried it once, but not fully as only 1 dll registered, so i couldn't run it in IDE, only the compiled reg-free worked.
    its not that i don't want to contribute, its that im a newbie here, i can't even use it.
    also, i already wrote that im busy and the projects i have take all my time, its my free time we are talking and i don't have unlimited of that.
    to dig into a new framework is a lot of work that im not against but right now not the time or even possible.

    you say like i just want to "use you", but its not true at all. i will only "use" the part i need for my projects. like i do now with vb6. i exclude most of the old component and work with mostly APIs. your RC5 could be the next step, but i need more motivation, time and also to feel is the right choice for me. im not there yet. i can't force it. like i don't spend time with dx9, its not that i don't want to learn, its not for me right now.

    still i tell you its your decision, im not trying to make you share your project. i just tell you how i feel and think of it. theres no agenda behind my words and im honest when i write i want it to success. but still, not sure what i can do to contribute. RC5 have given me nothing, only nice pictures and code here on the forum that i can't even try.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Baka - only 1 DLL needs to be registered for RC5, the vbRichClien5.dll. All other DLLs just need to sit in the same folder as the registered vbRichClient5.dll.

    From there you just add a reference (Projects menu > References) to vbRichClient5 and you should be able to do everything in the IDE (with or without reg-free). The reg-free stuff is completely optional BTW, you can just use the library like any regular ActiveX DLL.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    VB6 still works on Windows 10 and VB6 apps will still run on Windows 10, that is 12 years after the product officially left support and about 9 years after the product officially left extended support, that seems a pretty decent way to treat people. I can't think of many pieces of software that were released pre 2000 that I would still expect to be supported by a vendor, I would be pleasantly surprised if software that old still ran on a modern OS at all.

    I know the feelings of a lot of people here are against .Net and see VB.Net as some form of treachery but things do come to an end and although I no longer do anything with VB6 I personally thought the changes at the time were worthwhile and 17 years of development later I do honestly think the .Net platform is worthwhile and far superior to VB6. If you had asked my opinion of VB 20+ years ago I was a massive fan of VB3, 5 and 6 (not 4, that was a mess) and certainly better than things that had gone before. However things change, companies move on and need to make money and our old favourites eventually stop being supported.
    No, it's not like that.
    If someone invested 10, 15 years on learning a language, a company should't be allowed to say: OK, that laguage is our, and we will no longer let it live.

    There should be a law protecting the people that learned a language. What I can think of it, is a law that when a company decides to not continue with a language, it shout be enforced to open its sources to the developers community that are using it.

    It would be difficult and controversial to find a good law, I admit.
    But something should be done, I guess.

    Or... when you are about to buy a product that it is a programming language, you would have to sign a contract with big red letter stating clearly in the first page "you agree that if this company discontinues this product, all that you have learned and invested about it will be rendered useless, even if you spend decades on it. Use it at your own risk".
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    "Formal" open source is great if you are living off your parents, research grants, are independently wealthy, or... as in many cases you are subsidized by some major corporation with devious goals of undermining competitors or just avoiding taxes, regulations, and corporate liability.

    Anything else such as hobby-produced or "sideline" or "by product" open source may as well be given away as either public domain or with the most generous open source license terms available. You are going to have an impossible time maintaining any control over the direction or quality anyway.
    Very true.

    I think that Olaf has in mind to sell some accesory libraries, perhaps aimed to enterprises.

    Any other developer could also do that.

    Then, those people that would be making money (indirectly) from the project, will be very interested in keeping the project alive and up to date, perhaps donating money or contributing with source code.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    No, it's not like that.
    If someone invested 10, 15 years on learning a language, a company should't be allowed to say: OK, that laguage is our, and we will no longer let it live.
    That's a fine sentiment, but it's not reality. As long as a company owns a language they can do whatever they please. The only way around that is to make some kind of ANSI standard language. The history of THAT is certainly fraught. I'm sure people would have loved to have VB as an ANSI standard language free from MS, but you have to remember that Bill Gates started out with an open letter saying that sharing software is essentially theft, so you can't be surprised that his company wasn't too keen on open source. Things have changed a bit, recently, but not back in the 90s when it would have mattered.
    There should be a law protecting the people that learned a language. What I can think of it, is a law that when a company decides to not continue with a language, it shout be enforced to open its sources to the developers community that are using it.

    It would be difficult and controversial to find a good law, I admit.
    But something should be done, I guess.
    By who? The US Congress can't get out of their own way.

    People want some higher power to descend from heaven and make things work out their way. It has never happened, and won't be starting now. Just review the fighting between Lotus and Borland over 1-2-3, or Microsoft-Sun over Java

    Or... when you are about to buy a product that it is a programming language, you would have to sign a contract with big red letter stating clearly in the first page "you agree that if this company discontinues this product, all that you have learned and invested about it will be rendered useless, even if you spend decades on it. Use it at your own risk".
    I've written for a few platforms that no longer exist. Had I known how short they would live at the time, I might not have bothered. I generally get torqued at people who feel that they are entitled to not have the world change on them, just never thought I'd hear that from a programmer. We stand on shifting ground. It's the nature of the game.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    No, it's not like that.
    If someone invested 10, 15 years on learning a language, a company should't be allowed to say: OK, that laguage is our, and we will no longer let it live.

    There should be a law protecting the people that learned a language. What I can think of it, is a law that when a company decides to not continue with a language, it shout be enforced to open its sources to the developers community that are using it.
    If a company owns a language then they can do what they want with it, that is their prerogative. They are well within their rights to cease work on it at any time and not release the source code, after all there could be considerable IP in that code that is being used by the company elsewhere. Any law that attempted to force this would be more likely to stifle innovation and prevent organisations developing new languages. Plus the language still works, there is nothing stopping people using it as it currently stands it is simply no longer supported or maintained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    It would be difficult and controversial to find a good law, I admit.
    But something should be done, I guess.

    Or... when you are about to buy a product that it is a programming language, you would have to sign a contract with big red letter stating clearly in the first page "you agree that if this company discontinues this product, all that you have learned and invested about it will be rendered useless, even if you spend decades on it. Use it at your own risk".
    Isn't that pretty much what is covered in a typical EULA? http://download.microsoft.com/docume...a9b76b4f60.pdf is the VB6 one, can't say I have bothered to read it all myself but I bet amongst all the legal waffle it pretty much states that. Although the fact you can still use a legally owned copy all these years after it is out of support does go against the argument of " all that you have learned and invested about it will be rendered useless,"

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That's a fine sentiment, but it's not reality. As long as a company owns a language they can do whatever they please.
    That's not reality because nobody cared so far in changing the reality.
    Comments like yours and PlausiblyDamp's won't change that reality, but surrender to that reality.

    Some time ago (not too far) there was slavery, legally.
    That was the reality at that time.

    If all people would had thought "being free is a fine sentiment but not reality", nothing would have changed and slavery would be the reality still now.

    But there were people that did care about it in that regard.
    That didn't happen in regard to programming languages so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    By who? The US Congress can't get out of their own way.
    Yes, the US Congress.
    what do you mean with "can't get out of their own way"?

    Or may be the European Parliament can be the first. Europeans seems to be more prone to fight big american companies unfair practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    People want some higher power to descend from heaven and make things work out their way. It has never happened, and won't be starting now. Just review the fighting between Lotus and Borland over 1-2-3, or Microsoft-Sun over Java
    There has been advances in legislations mainly from Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I generally get torqued at people who feel that they are entitled to not have the world change on them, just never thought I'd hear that from a programmer. We stand on shifting ground. It's the nature of the game.
    You have to differentiate when things change naturally, and when a big company changes something because of their desission, and harming lot of other people.
    They are two very, very different scenarios and it seems that they are permanently confused.

    I'm not saying that I want MSX BASIC because I used it in the past.
    It was naturally surpassed by other technologies.

    That's not what happened with VB6, you should realize the difference.

    But well, if that's the "reality", then I think I won't invest any time now and in the foreseeable future in a closed source technology.
    With one bad experience, I already learned the lesson.

    Then nobody ask me anymore why I don't want to spend time learning this or that closed source environment, OK? You already can figure why.

    I value my time. The time that I spend learning something I consider it an investment, and asset.
    And I don't like to loose what I made with effort.
    Last edited by Eduardo-; Jan 19th, 2018 at 06:56 PM.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Some time ago (not too far) there was slavery, legally.
    That was the reality at that time.
    Equating a company stopping support for a programming tool with slavery? Seems a bit of an extreme comparison.Personally I would say a more realistic comparison would be with a car manufacturer no longer supporting a particular make and model of car, or a TV manufacturer no longer supporting a 20 year old TV set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I'm not saying that I want MSX BASIC because I used it in the past.
    It was naturally surpassed by other technologies.

    That's not what happened with VB6, you should realize the difference.

    But well, if that's the "reality", then I think I won't invest any time now and in the foreseeable future in a closed source technology.
    With one bad experience, I already learned the lesson.

    Then nobody ask me anymore why I don't want to spend time learning this or that closed source environment, OK? You already can figure why.

    I value my time. The time that I spend learning something I consider it an investment, and asset.
    And I don't like to loose what I made with effort.
    What did happen with VB6 in your opinion that is different to any other programming language ceasing to be supported?

    Learning any programming language is an investment, in fact learning more than one language is a better investment as you get a better overall appreciation of programming techniques and approaches. I don't consider the time I spent learning VB3, 5, 6 or any version of VB.Net, C, C++, C#, Javascript, Typescript and even a brief dabble with F#, Smalltalk and 6510 assembler to be a waste despite the fact I rarely do much in anything other than C# and Javascript / Typescript these days. Experience with those languages has made learning newer languages easier and given me a better appreciation for programming in general.

    Times change and tools change accordingly, these days the web, ajax and the cloud are common place - 20+ years ago VB3 on 16bit windows 3.11 was the norm. Things change. Nobody is stopping you developing in VB6, just the same as nobody is stopping you developing in VB3, Cobol, Fortran, or Turbo Pascal for Windows.

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    Equating a company stopping support for a programming tool with slavery? Seems a bit of an extreme comparison.Personally I would say a more realistic comparison would be with a car manufacturer no longer supporting a particular make and model of car, or a TV manufacturer no longer supporting a 20 year old TV set.
    Absolutely disagree!
    I see two alternatives to understand your point of view:
    1) You don't invest much time learning a language, that means you don't try to be an expert in the field.
    2) You have a mindset similar to an slave. Stockholm syndrome was already mentined here.
    3) A third option, see Edit (*)

    Your argument could well have been taken from MS, perhaps you've read it from them (and that's probable).

    You could have found some more similar case. For example: a plane pilot expends much time learning to fly the Boeing 747-400. Then, the company where he works sells all 747-400 and buy Airbuses A380.
    He'll have to learn all again.
    But in that case the pilot could try to go to work to another company, where he could fly 747-400's.
    Or the company that made those changes could pay for the pilot's training with the new plane, and pay his salary meanwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    What did happen with VB6 in your opinion that is different to any other programming language ceasing to be supported?

    Learning any programming language is an investment, in fact learning more than one language is a better investment as you get a better overall appreciation of programming techniques and approaches. I don't consider the time I spent learning VB3, 5, 6 or any version of VB.Net, C, C++, C#, Javascript, Typescript and even a brief dabble with F#, Smalltalk and 6510 assembler to be a waste despite the fact I rarely do much in anything other than C# and Javascript / Typescript these days. Experience with those languages has made learning newer languages easier and given me a better appreciation for programming in general.

    Times change and tools change accordingly, these days the web, ajax and the cloud are common place - 20+ years ago VB3 on 16bit windows 3.11 was the norm. Things change. Nobody is stopping you developing in VB6, just the same as nobody is stopping you developing in VB3, Cobol, Fortran, or Turbo Pascal for Windows.
    I think I already made my points clear enough.
    If you don't see the difference... I'm a bit tired of explaining.

    I feel responsability with the clients of my programs, they are not my slaves by any means.
    And my programs are easy to use. So figure...

    Edit: from (*) 3) Another possible option is that you like so much to learn new technological things, that you don't consider that an investment but simply a fun time. You enjoy it so much that it doesn't matter to you to "waste" that time.

    I prefer other things. I prefer to spend time with my family, friends, to watch movies, to read (not technical things), Etc.
    I see this just as a work. I do really enjoy it, but only as work.
    Last edited by Eduardo-; Jan 19th, 2018 at 09:55 PM.
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    What could have led you to think that from my comments, is beyond my understanding.
    What you said there, seems to me as a straw man argument.
    Eduardo - it is not a strawman when it's true.

    You don't have much experience with VB-Classes, end of story...
    If you did, you wouldn't have to ask what the RC5's "New_c" is for.
    Another hint that you don't know what you're talking about is, that
    you "feel alienated" by RC5-code - and that its "interfaces are suboptimal".
    That's the exact opposite of the feedback I get from people who use the
    RC5-classes in their daily work intensively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Do you believe that everyone that doesn't like something will publish a modified version and start competing with the original?
    No, not everyone - but already one or two are sufficient to torpedo the whole thing.
    I've seen that already a few times, so you don't have to bring up Mozilla, one of the "big elephants"
    (a foundation which has a sub-corporation that pays its developers, that's not comparable to our scenario here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    But seeing how the things are... may be it's better that you keep it closed source.
    In my opinion, being open source need to be accompanied of being open minded.
    Then make up your mind, offer serious help - and stop acting so "childish".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    If you don't even consider the arguments that other people (trying to help) expose, ...
    Well, that's the problem right there Eduardo - I've *read* your "arguments" -
    but so far wasn't able to detect anything that was helpful, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Keep insulting. That's your usual way of leading a conversation that intended to be productive...
    And you call other people arguments "emotional".
    Hmm, then please point out to me, where you offered any topic-related technical of factual information
    in all those text-snippets from you, which I've cited above - the only thing I see there is
    "Eduardo coming off the rails".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I've never read from you "you are right" or "you may be right" or "I'll consider what you say". Never.
    Not true at all - I don not feel myself "above being corrected", in case I posted nonsense.
    Last example was only a few weeks ago, post #18 in this thread: http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...=1#post5247591
    Which in turn led me to editing post #4 again, to not leave wrong information behind.
    And yesss! "it hurt" that it had to be dilettante (of all people) who was pointing that out to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    When you have no argument, you start attacking with insults and fallacies.
    That has happened time over time over time, again and again.
    More allegations and lies - if you don't tune that down a bit soon,
    I can imagine you'll get "slapped with a fish" or something...

    Olaf

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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Eduardo - it is not a strawman when it's true.

    You don't have much experience with VB-Classes, end of story...
    I can only say LOL!
    Sorry, I'm now working and I don't have time to keep reading right now.

    If you are believing your own imaginations, I'll start thinking that you are not in your right mind, and that would make me very sad, if that really is happening to you.

    You always end up trolling. It seems that nothing can be discussed with you.
    vbExtra: Print preview for VB6, print FlexGrids and more.
    MSDN online for VB6, Language reference.

  38. #78
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Does that mean your REALLY believe that you should have your livelihood guaranteed? If so, then by whom?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  39. #79
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Everyone's attention is different. Here, most people seem to be more concerned about whether RC5 is open source, rather than what is the future of VB6?

    IMO, RC5 open source or not, it will not have much impact on VB6 developers. Because RC5 has been there. Some people might still not use RC5 even after RC5 open source, as they are unwilling to accept new things and they will still find a lot of reasons for doing so.

    But Olaf's new compiler and new IDE will have a big impact on the future of VB6. So I'm more concerned with the new compiler and the new IDE.

    When I made up my mind to leave my familiar job and completely switch to web-app and cloud-database, which I'm completely unfamiliar with, I actually had a lot of alternative development tools, C#, C++, Python, Golang, Delphi, all these languages I know a little about, I don't have any problems learning and using them. But I still decided to use VB6 to complete my work. Why? Because I like VB6, working with it can bring me a lot of fun.

  40. #80
    Fanatic Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Vb6 , the Future, and what I have discovered

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Absolutely disagree!
    I see two alternatives to understand your point of view:
    1) You don't invest much time learning a language, that means you don't try to be an expert in the field.
    2) You have a mindset similar to an slave. Stockholm syndrome was already mentined here.
    3) A third option, see Edit (*)
    I have probably spent more time learning various languages over the years than I can count, just because I don't have an attachment these days to a language I used to used extensively does not imply I didn't invest much time in learning the language.

    At the time I needed to understand COM+ (and DCOM before that), MTS etc and how to create these components in VB. I used to understand the issues behind the various COM threading models and how to do multithreading in VB6. I estimate that I probably spent about 15 or so years of my life mainly developing in VB6 and earlier, not sure if that made me an expert but I would certainly have classed myself knowledgeable in the areas I needed to know about. I could probably still remember how to configure DCOM activation permissions and open RPC ports if needed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Your argument could well have been taken from MS, perhaps you've read it from them (and that's probable).

    You could have found some more similar case. For example: a plane pilot expends much time learning to fly the Boeing 747-400. Then, the company where he works sells all 747-400 and buy Airbuses A380.
    He'll have to learn all again.
    But in that case the pilot could try to go to work to another company, where he could fly 747-400's.
    Or the company that made those changes could pay for the pilot's training with the new plane, and pay his salary meanwhile.
    Not sure what your argument is here, a person working for a company that uses VB6 could always retrain if the company decided to start developing in a different language or seek employment somewhere that still used VB6. In fact looking at https://scandinaviantraveler.com/en/...aircraft-model it would appear that yes pilots do constantly retrain as new planes are brought into usage. Why should a developer not also keep their skills up to date if their job required it? It is not a company's responsibility to choose the tools and approaches the staff know best, the company should be making choices based on what is best for the company. If suddenly their clients want cloud hosted, containerisation, micro services and web based systems then the company is going to need to provide these things and if that means switching languages to be more productive then so be it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I think I already made my points clear enough.
    If you don't see the difference... I'm a bit tired of explaining.

    I feel responsability with the clients of my programs, they are not my slaves by any means.
    And my programs are easy to use. So figure...
    So you can continue to develop in VB6 for your existing clients and things still work, I am still not seeing how this makes anyone a slave or a comparison to slavery a valid one. If you are happy with VB6 and your clients are happy with what you provide where is the problem? I am genuinely not seeing what makes this comparable to slavery. You describe a situation where you and your clients are getting what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Edit: from (*) 3) Another possible option is that you like so much to learn new technological things, that you don't consider that an investment but simply a fun time. You enjoy it so much that it doesn't matter to you to "waste" that time.

    I prefer other things. I prefer to spend time with my family, friends, to watch movies, to read (not technical things), Etc.
    I see this just as a work. I do really enjoy it, but only as work.
    I will admit to enjoying learning new things, not just technology either, however as a professional programmer I consider keeping up with advances in the field part of the job description. Tools change and improve, methodologies change, languages change, requirements change, environments change - being able to adapt to change and learn new things is part of the job as far as I am concerned

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