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Thread: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

  1. #121
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    The way that open source teams are structured means that they are much more fluid. There are no static teams just gatekeepers and people who drop in and contribute as they can, in any way they can. Those contributions can take many forms not just code. eg. In Joomla I have contributed by identifying bugs, contributing to discussions on IRC, code suggestions, documentation, 3rd party enhancements (modules) all contributing to the Joomla sphere without ever writing a single line of core code. Allowing and encouraging contribution in all ways was Joomla's success in the early days. The teams can be considered huge if you take unofficial contributions that never even make it into the core.

    Making comparison to closed source products like MS Word. Who ever contributes to the MS Word 'sphere'? - no-one.

    I think this chat has gone silly. Someone put it back on the rails please with something about VB6 and something constructive if possible.

  2. #122
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Well one thing people can do is to look at platforms where there is no VB and ask what they use for desktop development.

    If you look at Linux for example you basically find Java with JavaFX, then C++, C, and a flotilla of script-based systems cobbled together with one of thousands of UI widget libraries. Sure, you can find other things in use but they have pretty small user communities.

    None of it has a lot of long-term stability either.

    If you want a language syntax similar to classic VB there are very few options. The most viable one still standing with support and a non-zero user community is probably B4J, which compiles to Java bytecode and uses JavaFX for UI support.

    That has already been mentioned here much earlier but I don't think many are exploring it. People seem to want to indulge in pipedreams about ill-defined vaporware instead.

    Has anyone ever tried using Lazarus? That's about the best thing you could expect and it is pretty clunky.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Say please our chinesse brother, what one guy running this direction based on visual studio.
    For why neccessary make new ide?
    All peoples know about VS.
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    vbvs homesite

    Earlier I had already opened a similar post
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  4. #124
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    *snipp*

    If you look at Linux for example you basically find Java with JavaFX, then C++, C, and a flotilla of script-based systems cobbled together with one of thousands of UI widget libraries. Sure, you can find other things in use but they have pretty small user communities.

    None of it has a lot of long-term stability either.

    If you want a language syntax similar to classic VB there are very few options. The most viable one still standing with support and a non-zero user community is probably B4J, which compiles to Java bytecode and uses JavaFX for UI support.

    *snipp*
    On Linux there is Gambas, which is very close to "native" VB6-Syntax

    And yes, i've tried Lazarus/FPC, and i don't find it "clunky", on the contrary, it gives me way more freedom without having to change my "style" of programming.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    I found Lazarus to be clunky but that is because the IDE imposes a workflow/methods based upon the requirements of Pascal and some historical baggage from the Borland/Emberacdero way of doing things I suppose.

    As an example, I created a new form without creating a new project first, populated it with a number of buttons/text objects and then I closed Lazarus and tried to reopen that form - but found it next to impossible. Each time it was empty or corrupted.

    I am sure it is because I am doing something wrong. So for me it was clunky and counter-intuitive. I am sure that the Lazarus IDE flies for a dedicated Pascal dev. who is familiar with the IDE from years of use.

    That is the point of my search for a VB6-like IDE, I am familiar with it and I'd want to fly without relearning an IDE that I may have to abandon again... Every task within Lazarus has its own set of issues/methods of doing things and I know none of them.

    IF I could code in VBscript, javascript and VB6 within that VB6-like IDE I would be thrilled.

    Re: VisualStudio - I find most MS products since VB6 to be bloated and slow in comparison to the slimline tools I now use. Their lifetime is also short and the bundling of UI interface changes and bug fixes together really annoys me. I don't want to have to learn a new GUI on a regular basis. Having MS drop support from the current framework is a sword of Damocles that I have suffered from in the past and I am loathe to adopt a new MS tool just to have it abandoned as I get up to speed.

    PS. The non-zero community is such an important aspect of a product. The fact that VB6 has such a community of dedicated programmers and has still been unable to get something off the ground astounds me! I think the bar of an all encompassing language that is the be-all and end-all of all our language desires is the root of the problem. The community should have progressively built a set of tools that could grow/adapt. I cannot believe that Olaf's hard work has come/will come to nothing.

    For me, javascript is the replacement for the VB6 language on a spiritual level. It allows you to build apps quickly. The absence of a decent IDE and the dearth of support for desktop native programs is another let-down that a VB6-er has to overcome. I overcame it in my own unique way using photoshop and obsolete desktop javascript engines but it isn't a serious path I could recommend.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jun 25th, 2018 at 05:39 AM. Reason: added javascript

  6. #126
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    That argument is a non-argument IMO.

    It's like comparing manual gear against automatic gear in a car: Both are designed for you to reach your goal.

    After close to 30 years driving manual-gear cars only, last month i had to use a company car with automatic gear for the first time in my life.
    And what do you know: Driving it is still familiar, you just have to get used to its quirks and specs.

    In your case i read it as:
    "Oh no Sir, i don't want to abandon my manual gear!"
    "Your problem, automatic gear is what you get from now on. Stay with your old car, or move on"
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  7. #127
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    That argument is a non-argument IMO.

    It's like comparing manual gear against automatic gear in a car: Both are designed for you to reach your goal.

    After close to 30 years driving manual-gear cars only, last month i had to use a company car with automatic gear for the first time in my life.
    And what do you know: Driving it is still familiar, you just have to get used to its quirks and specs.

    In your case i read it as:
    "Oh no Sir, i don't want to abandon my manual gear!"
    "Your problem, automatic gear is what you get from now on. Stay with your old car, or move on"
    If that was a return to my post, I'm not sure it is - but if it is then I'd say the same about your comment. It is a non-argument and as far as I am concerned a non-response. Almost null space. Forgive me if you were responding to someone else.

    I have to settle for nothing. I have a fully customisable environment for what I want to do. There is the choice of not following the corporation's enforced route at all, in which case my money stays in my wallet. Free and open source choice abounds and no-one has to be forced to use anyone's technology any more.

    VB6 has fewer choices but for VB6 there at least exists the possibility of a new IDE and the remoter possibility of a language replacement.

    The use of an auto box is a poor analogy as I would consider a manual box to be the better option and not an improvement. Lucky you aren't in charge of any major software development?

  8. #128
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    If that was a return to my post, I'm not sure it is - but if it is then I'd say the same about your comment. It is a non-argument and as far as I am concerned a non-response. Almost null space. Forgive me if you were responding to someone else.

    I have to settle for nothing. I have a fully customisable environment for what I want to do. There is the choice of not following the corporation's enforced route at all, in which case my money stays in my wallet. Free and open source choice abounds and no-one has to be forced to use anyone's technology any more.

    VB6 has fewer choices but for VB6 there at least exists the possibility of a new IDE and the remoter possibility of a language replacement.

    The use of an auto box is a poor analogy as I would consider a manual box to be the better option and not an improvement. Lucky you aren't in charge of any major software development?
    Yes, it was an answer to your post, especially your comment about not wanting to learn a new IDE, just because you're familiar with your current one.
    The thing is: The IDE's are basically still the same, they just look different, the tools are in a different place, they're even called different names.
    That's what my car-comparison was about.

    And you're contradicting yourself:
    Free and open source choice abounds and no-one has to be forced to use anyone's technology any more.

    VB6 has fewer choices but for VB6 there at least exists the possibility of a new IDE and the remoter possibility of a language replacement.
    And what are you going to do, if Olaf decides to abandon the "Immediate Window" and call it "Console"?
    Face it: Even if you get a new IDE for VB6, you're still dependant on the author's decision, how to name what, where to place what tool etc.
    The Question is not: I can only be productive, if my environment is what i'm used to, but what am i prepared to invest in possible new ways to be productive?
    And this includes sitting down, and learning the way of an IDE (or even a new language), no matter if it's open source or not

    And no, i'm not responsible for any software-developement (minor nor major), since i have a "normal" job paying my bills
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  9. #129
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    I didn't like the transmission analogy, but I liked the point. If all you have ever driven was manual, going to an automatic isn't hard. If all you have ever driven is automatic, then going to manual is difficult, and if you are going to a manual that requires double clutching...forget it.

    However, I did like the general point that you always have to learn a new system. There is no IDE for JS that is quite like the VB6 IDE, nor is the language all that similar, yet you learned it just the same.

    On the other hand, there's a larger point to this: The reason there isn't a replacement for VB6 is because you can't find two people who want one who also want exactly the same thing. Everybody wants it to be the same....except for one or two things. Some people want the IDE to be the same, some want the IDE to improve, but if they want it to improve, you'd end up with a fight over what "improvement" means.

    So, whenever anybody tries to create a replacement, it will leave 50% opposed, and another 45% willing to use it, but with varying amounts of complaining all the way. At least there will be 5% who will thoroughly enjoy it, though. Best be prepared to be happy with that.
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post

    So, whenever anybody tries to create a replacement, it will leave 50% opposed, and another 45% willing to use it, but with varying amounts of complaining all the way. At least there will be 5% who will thoroughly enjoy it, though. Best be prepared to be happy with that.
    Well, I suppose that is the point of open source. You can have it any way you choose if you have the skill and the source.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Jun 26th, 2018 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Removed the snark.

  11. #131
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Well, I suppose that is the point of open source. You can have it any way you choose if you have the skill and the source.
    I'm not following this thread that closely, but I think the closed-source state of VB6 makes it painfully clear what the advantages of open-source could be.

    In a 32-bit world that has OS platforms with an enormous base rooted in Windows, the VB6 we have is a wonderful language. However, that world is slowly shifting out from under us. Specifically, even if we primarily focus on business desktop apps, 32-bit will eventually fade. Microsoft is even starting to offer options to uninstall (or never install) the WOW64 option.

    And, if the VB6 IDE were open source, I have virtually no doubt that we'd have a 64-bit compiler by now. We'd probably also have several somewhat annoying bugs fixed in some version (such as UDT array type checking in arguments), and some nice enhancements (such as native unsigned integers).

    Even when it's a globally traded company (such as Microsoft), with closed-source, we're obviously always at the mercy of that company, and more so if it's just some individual out there doing their thing.

    Regarding any language (or major language features/libraries), there's no way I'd touch anything that was closed-source (beyond how I'm already trapped with VB6).

    Best Regards To All,
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Thoroughly agreed!

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    The only reason the VB didn't evolve is that Microsoft dropped it in order to push .Net, it is as simple as that.

    Visual Studio took cue after cue from what VB's IDE had become and then expanded upon it. Sometimes for good and sometimes not so much.

    Yes, you can get something to work using Lazarus. But it is an awful lot like the old joke: http://www.realnothings.com/famous%20jokes/suit.htm

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    BTW: Where are all of these whizzy alternatives brought to us by the open sores community?

    Yeah, I thought not.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    BTW: Where are all of these whizzy alternatives brought to us by the open ssoooooouuuuurce community?

    Yeah, I thought not.
    Well, freebasic with firefly3 is an open source alternative to the VB6 language and the IDE is relatively easy to get to grips with whilst being no clone. There's one for a start. It is on my desktop and I'm using it to build small basic apps to demonstrate to my children, nothing more professional at the moment but it works... It is about the closest thing that you will get to replace VB6 that is supported, thoroughly implemented, documented &c.

    QB64 is open source but closer to QB than VB, it has an accurate approximation to the old IDE and it creates 64 bit apps. The language is a very close copy to QB with enhancements The IDE lacks "Stop and continue" as I believe the code is not interpreted and so a run is really more of a compile and run. If you liked QB then you'll like QB64. It is also installed on my desktop as a curiosity more than anything as I loved working with QB45 and was quite productive.

    Basic4GL recently went open source. It has a simple IDE and is designed for graphical games using GL.

    Then there's GAMBAS for Linux and if you don't mind running it under a VM or building it to run under windows.

    So there's a few open source alternatives. There are other basic variants open sourced and still maintained that I haven't mentioned. The internet is your friend.

    Shall I bring some salt for you to make your words a little more tasty?

  16. #136
    Fanatic Member wqweto's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Don't feed the troll, everyone.

    Just follow yereverluvinuncleber's profile and use "Add to Ignore List" link there (putting a direct link for convenience).

    cheers,
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    Don't feed the troll, everyone.

    Just follow yereverluvinuncleber's profile and use "Add to Ignore List" link there (putting a direct link for convenience).

    cheers,
    </wqw>
    That wouldn't bother me one bit. Might result in less silly posts. I try at least to make a cogent comment with some factual support rather than just salty opinions and snide digs. Can we get back onto VB6?

  18. #138
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    That wouldn't bother me one bit. Might result in less silly posts. I try at least to make a cogent comment with some factual support rather than just salty opinions and snide digs. Can we get back onto VB6?
    I was tempted to remove the last two posts, but then you added that final question:

    When it comes to discussions ABOUT the VB6 language itself, it has never failed to end up with "just salty opinions and snide digs." People bring a real passion to this subject, in every different direction (there are far more than just two). That's why I noted that you can tell the threads about the future of VB6 by looking for threads with more than two pages. If there isn't moderation, it turns into bomb throwing and flame wars, or pure insanity like the many threads in Visual Studio UserVoice. The trick, is to balance the rightful passion with a respectful dialog....but it usually does just end up as salty opinion and snide digs.
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    BTW: Where are all of these whizzy alternatives brought to us by the open sores community?

    Yeah, I thought not.
    here ya go

    Those devs will have tons of options for community supported versions if they fall out of favor.
    Last edited by DllHell; Jun 26th, 2018 at 10:18 AM.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Well, problem solved.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Well, problem solved.
    I know you are trying to be snarky but isn't MS doing exactly what we would like them to do with vb6? We could avoid all the charlatans and their ****** vaporware if they would open source c2.

  22. #142
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    MS has been moving (slowly) in the direction people would prefer, at least with development tools. I'm cautiously optimistic.
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Me too. I am optimistic, probably from not knowing enough about the subject. VB6 resurgent as open source is the sort of kick-start VB6 requires and it really might help Microsoft with a generation of new programmers.

    Whilst on this subject, at this moment I am teaching my youngest boy BASIC, declaring variables, types, prints and inputs and if...then constructs.

    I would love to have utilised VB6 but the rigmarole of getting VB6 to work and then pointing my boy down an obsolete path that most likely will expose him to grief later on is just not a route I could choose for him.

    Instead I have opened QB64 and we created a couple of simple and fun programs and when he has this under his belt we will migrate the code to FreeBasic with the Firefly3 IDE showing him how to compose a form and assign events.

    I would have loved to use VB6 to do all this but it makes little sense. If VB6 was open source it would have been installed by now on all my systems.

  24. #144
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    I'm optimistic about the direction MS is going with development tools being more open source. I'm NOT optimistic that VB6 will ever be open sourced by MS.

    I have no idea how their archiving system is. I'd say it's pretty likely that nobody who worked on VB6 is still with the company, and if they are, they are several projects removed from VB6. That's a lot of institutional knowledge that has gone away. I seriously doubt they have the old VB6 code base sitting around in a shape where it could simply be released, and I also doubt they have the will to either assign new people to getting something that old into shape, or dig up old people with some memory of the stuff. It's been some 18 years, or so, since 6.5 was abandoned, after all.

    The business case for open sourcing tools and languages that they are currently developing, and giving away for free, is fairly obvious: Get more people onto that system. However, they've also clearly been pushing this in systems that have the objective of being cross-platform, which was the original goal of .NET (as it was with Java, because of which .NET was created). They've been slow to do the same for desktop, though they are moving in that direction. What's the business case for a language they no longer support in an IDE that is many generations out of date? Personally, I don't believe there are throngs of people out there pining away for a chance to get back into VB6. There are certainly enthusiasts, and they'd be thrilled....perhaps...or they'd be pissed about the language not having been updated, or not updated the way they wanted it to be updated, but I doubt the number is all that high. Without new people moving into the domain, the business case just doesn't exist.
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    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    You know? I wish VBForums would create a forum named "Language Opinions, Developments, Selection, Advice, and Alternatives". And then I wish they would move all these types of threads to that forum.

    I have a few different people (at client sites) assisting with the maintenance and enhancement of my primary (open source) VB6 project. They're well aware that it's forever a 32-bit project and that there are certain limits with it, and that's not problematic (at least not in the near-term).

    I often think about turning them on to VBForums, but I always think twice, and don't do it, precisely because of threads like this. Sure, if they want to explore the future/alternatives to VB6, they could go find that other forum. But I just cringe when I think of them seeing all the bickering that goes back-and-forth in these types of threads.

    All The Best,
    Elroy
    Last edited by Elroy; Jun 26th, 2018 at 04:23 PM.
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    I often think about turning them on to VBForums
    if they've ever googled a vb6 programming question, there is a good chance they have already been here

  27. #147
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by DllHell View Post
    if they've ever googled a vb6 programming question, there is a good chance they have already been here
    hahaha, yeah, I know. But I still wish we could shuttle these bickering (non-technical) threads off to somewhere else.

    EDIT1: For grins, I Googled "VB6 Help" (no quotes), and a VBForums page was the third hit. I also tried "VB6 Question" (again, no quotes) and it was the fourth hit. I'm a bit surprised it wasn't even earlier.
    Last edited by Elroy; Jun 26th, 2018 at 04:48 PM.
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    I often think about turning them on to VBForums, but I always think twice, and don't do it, precisely because of threads like this. Sure, if they want to explore the future/alternatives to VB6, they could go find that other forum. But I just cringe when I think of them seeing all the bickering that goes back-and-forth in these types of threads.
    If you really think that this sort of thread makes you cringe due to the conflict you perceive then feel content that you aren't on other forums that are many times as toxic. This place feels like a pleasant kindergarten in comparison and the mild trolling here can be easily ignored. The good thing is that even the trolls here must have some technical knowledge...and knowledge is often a good thing in itself leading hopefully to some sort of self-moderation?

    I always try to read positivity into other's comments unless they are obviously and completely designed to troll. They tend to be the least technical comments so easy to identify.

    Don't you think it is sometimes good to hear other's opinions even if you think they are wrong? I think it is. I enjoy hearing Olaf's opinions as they are based on some technical knowledge and truth that cannot be denied. Still though, there is room for other opinions that may be just as correct but using different criteria to measure. So, it is good to listen and is good to express.

    The nice thing is we are talking about VB6 on a non-zero forum and that's positive.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jun 26th, 2018 at 05:15 PM.

  29. #149
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I'm optimistic about the direction MS is going with development tools being more open source. I'm NOT optimistic that VB6 will ever be open sourced by MS.
    I think that is realistic.

  30. #150
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    If you really think that this sort of thread makes you cringe due to the conflict you perceive then feel content that you aren't on other forums that are many times as toxic. This place feels like a pleasant kindergarten in comparison and the mild trolling here can be easily ignored. The good thing is that even the trolls here must have some technical knowledge...and knowledge is often a good thing in itself leading hopefully to some sort of self-moderation?

    I always try to read positivity into other's comments unless they are obviously and completely designed to troll. They tend to be the least technical comments so easy to identify.

    Don't you think it is sometimes good to hear other's opinions even if you think they are wrong? I think it is. I enjoy hearing Olaf's opinions as they are based on some technical knowledge and truth that cannot be denied. Still though, there is room for other opinions that may be just as correct but using different criteria to measure. So, it is good to listen and is good to express.

    The nice thing is we are talking about VB6 on a non-zero forum and that's positive.
    Hi Ber,

    Yeah, I'm not saying suppress it. Much (but not all) of it just sounds like bickering and hidden agendas to me. IDK, maybe I'm just a bit tired today. I did have my thumb operated on this morning, and it still hurts. Luckily, it wasn't on the bottom side I use for hitting the space-bar.

    I'd still vote for shuttling it off to another forum though (still within VBForums), and keep this forum for the truly technical stuff. Just my 2¢.

    Take Care,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  31. #151
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Look after your thumb! Either hand you still need it for typing, unless you type like me with a subset of your fingers...

  32. #152
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    There are only two other places that anything like this has shown up, and that was a long time ago in CC and General Developer. In both cases, the threads followed the same pattern with a flurry of discussion, then the thread fades away.

    At this point, I'd say that the only place people who want to talk about the subject frequent is right here. If the threads were moved elsewhere, they'd simply fade away like they did in those other places. For that reason, I'd say that moving the threads anywhere, whether a dedicated forum or otherwise, would be about the same as closing them, since the result would likely be the same, and in short order. Whether there are similar discussions regarding any other language, I can't say. I've never seen one, but I don't frequent a few of the forums, like C#, so maybe there are. Still, I have yet to see one, so a dedicated forum would be something like "Debate VB6", and that doesn't seem likely to be much good.
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  33. #153
    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    @Shaggy: Oooookkkk.

    @Ber: Well, I've been noticing lately ... I seem to use 9 fingers to type. My left-thumb rarely gets involved, just sort of hanging out there. But unfortunately, it's my right-thumb that has the problem. Some kind of small tumor-type thing decided to grow out of the end of my finger, just under my nail. For three weeks, it's only been getting bigger. This morning, they anesthetized the thing, whacked it off, and then cauterized everything. Nothing more pleasant than the smell of burning flesh, especially when it's your own. Typing isn't a problem, but buttoning buttons is, as it seems that's the exact spot of my thumb I use to get it done.

    Hmmm, oh yeah, you guys in China, be careful with your thumbs (said to make this post relevant to the title of the thread. *ducks for cover*)

    Y'all Take Care,
    Elroy
    Any software I post in these forums written by me is provided “AS IS” without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and permission is hereby granted, free of charge and without restriction, to any person obtaining a copy. Please understand that I’ve been programming since the mid-1970s and still have some of that code. My contemporary VB6 project is approaching 1,000 modules. In addition, I have a “VB6 random code folder” that is overflowing. I’ve been at this long enough to truly not know with absolute certainty from whence every single line of my code has come, with much of it coming from programmers under my employ who signed intellectual property transfers. I have not deliberately attempted to remove any licenses and/or attributions from any software. If someone finds that I have inadvertently done so, I sincerely apologize, and, upon notice and reasonable proof, will re-attach those licenses and/or attributions. To all, peace and happiness.

  34. #154
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Nothing like being opposable!

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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Light-hearted interlude over.

    Rather than responding to comments and getting my point over gradually, if I'd known how the thread was going to meander I'd have simply said what I'd make do with for a simple VB6 replacement - given that the thread was going to generate this sort of chat.

    At the least I'd settle for a VB6-like IDE, if it could install easily on any system, be free to install so I could put it anywhere, allow me to code in VBscript possibly, be compatible with and able to build VB forms and open VB projects to view the .BAS source then I'd be content, even if 50% of the real VB6 IDEs functionality was missing. If it was open source and able to grow then I'd be thrilled, if it was partly written in VB6 then I'd be more than happy.

    If it failed on all the elements that Olaf suggested are necessary, being able to build controls &c and made no attempt to build a new form of the language simply creating an alternative workflow for a casual VB6er then I'd still be content with just an IDE, it would be a curiosity but also a useful tool. A sort of VB6-lite for easy use.

    If it was complete with a variant of the language that was exactly the same as original VB6 then I would use it to build 32bit apps for bundling with ReactOS. I need nothing more and for me it could act as a good starting point for a 64bit VB7 yet to come.

    Re: fingers and lumps - I had a similar lump on the middle of a second digit on my right hand, now excised and cauterised. Now have a mere scar. I asked to keep it but they sent it off for analysis and I heard no more...

    PS That thread sidetrack re: open source software was a little strange - there are clearly some open source haters here. My whole operating environment is now open source except for Windows itself and three other tools that I am slowly migrating myself from. I still love Photoshop, that javascript engine I mentioned earlier and RJtextEd which is so good I really can't stop using it.

  36. #156
    Fanatic Member wqweto's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    @yereverluvinuncleber: Is the bitterness because you come here every 4 years and put forth your preferences for vNext but OSS community does not respond to your requests?

    You know one of the definitions of madness: doing the same thing over and over again but still expecting different outcome. . .

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  37. #157
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    To get back to the original topic (...wanna write a new basic language)

    Yes, i've read the whole thread some days ago, and no, i'm not going to read it again, but i just wonder how the thread got derailed into a discussion about a new IDE (and yes, i admit, i was in there too), when the thread originally was about a new language (which points back to my argument about learning a new language).

    Honestly?
    If a VB7 would give me my own Constructors/Destructors for classes,
    real inheritance (ClassB inherits From ClassA) so i don't have to copy/paste modules around my harddrive resp. importing them explicitely into my project,
    Procedure/function-overloading,
    unsigned integers,
    cross-platform-developement,
    standalone-EXE's
    and ...
    and ...
    i would seriously consider going back to Visual Basic (right now, the only stuff i do is actually VBA/Office for the company i work for).
    If all of above (well, mostly everything from above) were to be realized, i wouldn't give a damn if the IDE is open- or closed-source as long as
    the debugger leaves me the option to single-step through the code and check my variables and i have a WYSIWYG-Form-Designer (and to everyone else: Be honest: That's 90% of what you actually do in the IDE).
    Everything from above resp. everything from above missing in VB6 is the reason why i looked at Xojo and Lazarus/Freepascal and in the end decided for Lazarus/FreePascal
    One System to rule them all, One IDE to find them,
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Zvoni, the thread was side-tracked to an IDE as the IDE is 50-75% of the experience of writing code (being the whole environment). It is the end-user that experiences the results of your code whilst the BASIC language for many was just the glue allowing access to the inner workings of the WIN API.

    In addition, the VB6 IDE was often deemed to be best part of VB6 (even when you derided the language itself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Everything from above resp. everything from above missing in VB6 is the reason why i looked at Xojo and Lazarus/Freepascal and in the end decided for Lazarus/FreePascal
    Perhaps you could start a new thread and show a VB6er what are the pitfalls of migrating (oneself and not necessarily the code) to Lazarus/Pascal. I believe that the major reason for Borland Pascal's resurgence is that Lazarus IDE. I think the IDE is more vital to many, than you'd think.

    I think the code being open source is essential now. Unless there is a corporation dedicated to it, making money from it and without an internal agenda that goes counter to VB6's needs. The only way to ensure a future for any tool that you depend upon is a team of dedicated personnel, one of whom might be YOU.

    PS. Wqweto, followed your good advice and utilised the ignore list a while ago...it is a useful function.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jun 27th, 2018 at 05:51 AM. Reason: added open source as a necessity

  39. #159
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    I think you misunderstood what i (and a lot of others) tried to point out here:

    Yes, you're right that an IDE is 50-70% of the programming experience.

    BUT: A new IDE doesn't matter a jot, if the underlying technology doesn't progress with it! Independant of open vs. closed-source!!!

    I think, that's what Olaf tried to point out (Olaf, correct me if i'm wrong) with his inquiries about the compiler.
    Any new IDE, which features this, and features that, and is rainbow-colored, brews coffee in the morning (a Nobel-Prize for the Developer who implements this feature!) is basically useless in the long run, if it still uses the same technology/components (compiler, VB-Runtime, supporting dll's, OCX's and what not), because the End-Result would still be same technology-wise.

    Of course, nobody of us wants to go back into the stoneage, when you wrote your code in a simple texteditor, compiled it using the commandline, and then hoping and praying if the result would be to expectations (nevermind GUI's). That's what IDE's are for after all.

    But as i said: Just getting a new IDE without progress of the underlying technology is like giving two kids exactly the same xmas-present but in different wrappings. One might like and admire the wrapping, the other would just tear it away to get to the content
    One System to rule them all, One IDE to find them,
    One Code to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
    in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  40. #160
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

    Don't feed the troll, everyone.

    Just follow yereverluvinuncleber's profile and use "Add to Ignore List" link there (putting a direct link for convenience).

    cheers,
    </wqw>
    You've intimated that yereverluvinuncleber is trolling a few times now but I just don't see it. You may disagree with his position (I disagree with it myself, for the record) but he's stating it civilly and respectfully. Your post, on the other hand... not so much.

    Personally I think this debate highlights exactly why there isn't going to be a next generation of classic VB and it's what Shaggy averred to: you all want different things. For Olaf cross-platform is king, for yereverluvinuncleber that's irrelevant and it's all about a familiar but updated ide. Zvoni wants " my own Constructors/Destructors for classes, real inheritance (ClassB inherits From ClassA) so i don't have to copy/paste modules around my harddrive resp. importing them explicitely into my project, Procedure/function-overloading, unsigned integers, cross-platform-developement, standalone-EXE's " (to be fair I get that Zvoni's making the same "y'aint gonna get it" point that I am).

    No commercial undertaking (MS or otherwise) is going to touch this with a barge pole because the feature list is huge and the consumer base small. An Open Source project is unlikely to succeed because many of these decisions need to be built right into the architecture - they're not "features" you can make a fork for later. A one man band or tightly focussed team might stand a chance but I doubt it - the workload's huge and they're likely to end up producing something that only suits the needs of a small proportion of the user base.

    I don't enjoy being a doomsayer but I've seen so many threads/kickstarters/marketing pitches and they pretty much all follow the same formula: Huge enthusiasm, quickly followed by multiple detractors, lots of early activity in spite of the detractors then a gradual petering out. I've yet to see a single one that could be objectively viewed as a success.
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