Breaking News, few guys in China wanna write a new basic language

[dz32]

[...]

[labmany]

I am sure stuck-n-past is not interested in it anymore and I am pretty sure he has no intention to release it whatsoever!

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...=1#post5234385

[yereverluvinuncleber]

That is NOT my impression at all.

I think that he is wary of publishing something when there are so many that might be willing to rip his 'pet' project to bits. When someone posts on a forum there are always some ready to pounce. In addition, he does not have the time and the RoI is low for one man and his assessment of the workload.

I imagine he just needs to receive some enthusiasm and positive reception to the work he has already achieved.

One mistake he has made though is to gauge the likely popularity of such an IDE by showing glimpses of it here. If you want to gauge the popularity then you create a dynamic website, add a method of receiving donations and make a taster available for download and most important of all create a bug list/roadmap to show that real progress is being made toward a real project completion.

That has to be done to any project and only then will he be able to determine the popularity of such a tool. I would create that site for him. I am sure we could all recommend tools for publishing/handling bugs.

The likely market for any tool is not measured by the feedback of some devs on a forum, it is measured solely by the enthusiasm of the those that do the marketing. If they are enthusiastic then they'll make it happen. All the developers have to do is make the product happen and that is where the open source team comes in.

Create a team, let loose those skills and if their is enthusiasm in the team, harness it!

His IDE could be a starting point.

[labmany]

That is NOT my impression at all.

I think that he is wary of publishing something when there are so many that might be willing to rip his 'pet' project to bits. When someone posts on a forum there are always some ready to pounce. In addition, he does not have the time and the RoI is low for one man and his assessment of the workload.

I imagine he just needs to receive some enthusiasm and positive reception to the work he has already achieved.

One mistake he has made though is to gauge the likely popularity of such an IDE by showing glimpses of it here. If you want to gauge the popularity then you create a dynamic website, add a method of receiving donations and make a taster available for download and most important of all create a bug list/roadmap to show that real progress is being made toward a real project completion.

That has to be done to any project and only then will he be able to determine the popularity of such a tool. I would create that site for him. I am sure we could all recommend tools for publishing/handling bugs.

The likely market for any tool is not measured by the feedback of some devs on a forum, it is measured solely by the enthusiasm of the those that do the marketing. If they are enthusiastic then they'll make it happen. All the developers have to do is make the product happen and that is where the open source team comes in.

Create a team, let loose those skills and if their is enthusiasm in the team, harness it!

His IDE could be a starting point.

I hope so!

I believe in Olaf's work even though his IDE didn't see the light either.
I am working with .NET right now and I must admit that I see a great potential there!!!

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Me too!

If only they were to open source! I think that would not resolve everything but it would be the starting point. If I had the source, the tools and some build instructions I would be making contributions!

I need a RAD tool. My RAD tool of choice is still the old Yahoo widget engine as it allows design with Photoshop and coding with javascript and XML. My editor of choice is RJtextEdit. It has taken me a while to find an environment that I like to use, where I am productive. My trouble is that I am permanently working on tools that are obsolete due to being created or taken over, then abandoned by large corporations.

I need an open source IDE that meets my needs and I don't want to have to re-learn new skills just to keep up with the changes. I have enough learning to do in the languages I am trying to get under my belt and improving my graphical skills.

I was productive with the VB6 IDE and I'd like to contribute to make an IDE that matches the original as close as possible. No thin king required, you just pick it up and run with it. Then some optional changes and improvements to bring it up to speed with some of the more modern editors.

I'd like to find out what parts are written in VB6 and then I'd be able to contribute. If only to bugfix...

If, as it sounds the language syntax logic can be made into a discrete component that is separate from the core code the chance that others might contribute is greatly increased.

Being also able to code in VBscript and Jscript for example would be a great draw for those that want to script in an IDE that is built for RAD. VB6 for all the language shortcomings had a great IDE.

[Schmidt]

Not trying to "pick on *you* specifically" - just using your reply to point out the problem (because it's "typical",
and the reason why the idea of a new VB, carried by the community, apparently doesn't come along)...

I don't want to have to re-learn new skills just to keep up with the changes.

Because that's the problem right there - you will have to (learn new skills and methods) if a new VB7 shall ever see the light...
(even if it is 100% Syntax- and Coding-compatible to the old VB6-language, you have to learn new things -> libraries in that case).

My RAD tool of choice is still the old Yahoo widget engine ... + RJtextEdit.

See - you are still using "foreign tools" to accomplish some graphics-heavy stufff - although you could have written (or re-written)
most of what you produced (with that uncommon Yahoo-Widget-Engine and an uncommon Code-Editor) so far
completely within the VB6-IDE and the RC5-cairo-wrapper (using less code).

I've pointed this out to you already a few years ago - but as it is currently, you are not among those
who *could* help with a new (visual) successor to the existing VB6-IDE (even if you wanted to).

I'm quite sure here, that a successor to the existing VB6-IDE *has* to be build upon a platform-independent (Class-) layer,
which allows to *avoid* any Win32-API-Declare-statements - and is also not dependent on any other MS-GUI-tools or libs
(as e.g. DirectX, Direct2D, GDI+, or the Common-Controls).

Any "new IDE-attempt", which does ignore that, will be doomed to fail (IMHO, because at the time it'd be finished, it would only have a very short life-span).

Not sure, whether any of you follow MS's new (for the first time truly platform-independent) attempt at re-writing .NET...

It's a comparatively small package - called .NET-Core - and it contains (so far) no GUI-library or -GUI-Classes...
and that alone should raise a few alarm-triggers - because the only GUI-output it seems willing to address (e.g. with the accompanying IDE here: https://code.visualstudio.com/)
is based on a HTML5 rendering-engine - and "backend-wise" addressing "the cloud".

So, MS is clearly moving away from Win32 and any "MS-GUI-tools or libs as you knew them"...
(no CommonControls, no .NET.WinForms, no .NET-WPF, no .NET-XAML is used by .NET-core) ...

And at the same time, more and more Unix-Tools and -libs become part of Win10.

This may all be "cloud-based thinking and tooling" on MS's part - but the trend to "more platform-independence" among vendors and developers is undeniable.
So in my opinion - platform-independence (and development against platform-independent libs) are a must for any new development-tools.

That's why I think, that any efforts which do not take that into account (when plans for a VB6-successor are made) will "not fly" when they are finished
(are a waste of efforts and time).

Olaf

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Ooh, you are picking on me a bit -

Sounds as if you think my skills and opinions are rubbish.

Olaf, look, I know things can be done in other languages (even in VB6) and I know that YWE is obsolete too. However, VB6 has been obsolete for a lot longer than my currently preferred tool and I'm trying to find an environment that is supported and that is usable too. I want to retain my knowledge/skills at a rate that suits me, ie. building on an existing base. a future VB7 might well suit me even if it does move on fundamentally from VB6 - in any case I may be wrong but I thought we were talking more about an IDE here and not yet a complete new language? Forgive me if I misunderstand you.

I definitely don't remember you telling me that I was barking up the wrong tree before. My use of my current tools is based upon what I am productive in. I can currently create using a web-standard language that won't quickly go obsolete - using a GUI tool that won't go obsolete - based upon graphic objects that will be reusable elsewhere, all described in XML. Almost all of that is still in vogue.

That is why I persist with it rather than using a tool (VB6) that is getting even more obsolete as time goes on. It also suits my style as the tool is designed for doing what I do rather than just being possible at a pinch... I wouldn't revert to VB6 as it is now. I have a 64bit o/s and getting VB6 to install and function correctly would be a trial. I'd rather work with a new tool that would at least install.

There is something to be said about working on a new and upcoming tool rather than one that is suffering a long and slow death.

With regard to my skills and whether they would be applicable to helping - they definitely would be applicable (Tech. Project manager, VBscripter, VMS system admin, CMS admin, PHP, vbscript, .js, VB6, bug fixer, copy-writer, graphic designer). I'm not here to push my skills but just like most others here they are numerous and they do compare favourably to those of others. Those skills that I have access to from years of experience are even greater. I am not suggesting that I code an IDE myself (but I could do that but it would take many years) but what I was suggesting, if it wasn't clear (!), is that he gets a team together and starts to pull the skills together. Some of mine are useful and I am offering them. Perhaps you and others could be more positive and offer your own...

Forgive me if I am reacting to what appears to be subtle negativity. I know this job is huge Olaf, and I know that you are probably the one person that is closest to actually pulling it off. I'd say, come on do it! You have promised to for years.

At the least be positive toward those to others that would like to try. If I had your skills I would act as a father figure and give encouragement.

I don't secretly dig at anyone (I'd rather come straight out with it) and I'd prefer to be associated with a project that seems to be going somewhere rather than being skilled in a product that has no direction and appears to be going nowhere. I was told years ago that my VB6 skills were redundant. Those people's skills are probably more redundant now.

My feeling is that a resurgent VB6 IDE might help to put VB6 back on the rails and give it a direction. I am willing to give it my support and positivity because if I read between the lines the poor dev was plainly saying that sort of feedback was sorely lacking here.

PS. MS moving away from Win32 -hmmm, I think it will make Microsoft itself obsolete. MS has no crown jewels other than Windows and all its attempts to redefine itself have failed (Nokia, Windows phones, Surface tablets, RT &c). Microsoft is like Kodak or Polaroid. They have a massive share in the market but instead of being based on a product that is going slowly obsolete they are slowly dismantling their own product themselves. The result will be the same. I have no faith in MS to deliver.

My faith (possibly misplaced) is in ReactOS as a long term win32 inheritor. VB6 will work there, probably in perpetuity.

PPS. If ReactOS and a true VB7 were available now I would jump back in to them. I see the combination as akin to what the Raspberry Pi is doing, a cheap Intel board is available now and ReactOS would be fine on it. A resurgent IDE that can install and handle VB6 along with other languages. It could still transform RAD and derail MS plans ( or simply take over the win32 mantle ). Olaf, we discussed this once before I do see a day when a new VB could come bundled with an o/s and some hardware upon which to run your program... hardware is cheap, virtual hardware will be cheap, the o/s will be free, so do we really need the web just for a local program?

[Schmidt]

At the least be positive toward those to others that would like to try. If I had your skills I would act as a father figure and give encouragement.

Again (and I say this with all my years of experience, having invested *man-years* into exactly that topic, which we currently discuss here):

A potential successor to the existing VB6-IDE will have to be developed based on a platform-independent lib (GUI-wise) -
and this IDE has to have an integrated (nearly 100% VB6-language-compatible) 64Bit-compiler - otherwise it is doomed
(will not take off, when it's finished - dying along with the old Win-OS as we know it - and the more and more obsolete Win32-API).

So, before anyone argues further (against the above statement), I would like to hear of "a plan" or "a rough concept" -
how for example any new Visual VB6-successor-IDE plans to tackle the problem of VB6-coded Usercontrols ...
(visual Controls/Widgets always being a Key-part in VBs concept).

So, if there's anyone out there, who want's to comment on that - now is the time to "rise and shine"...

Olaf

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I do hear what you are saying Olaf but I'd still like to see his creation even it does not fulfil your (admittedly undeniable) minimum requirements, it might be something that some of us could work with. Windows without win32 in the foreseeable future? - yes, perhaps - but in the shorter term? I don't believe so... it might fill a hole.

[axisdj]

My take on this is extremely simple, and may not represent most devs here, but I use approx 5 to 10 max user controls per project vs 50-100 forms and 50-100 classes. So having to re-implement them is not a big deal by any means.

User controls are not an issue that would stop migration for me by any means.

So, before anyone argues further (against the above statement), I would like to hear of "a plan" or "a rough concept" -
how for example any new Visual VB6-successor-IDE plans to tackle the problem of VB6-coded Usercontrols ...
(visual Controls/Widgets always being a Key-part in VBs concept).

So, if there's anyone out there, who want's to comment on that - now is the time to "rise and shine"...

Olaf

[Schmidt]

Windows without win32 in the foreseeable future? - yes, perhaps - but in the shorter term?

In that shorter term you can of course still use the VB6-IDE - so,
what's the problem a new Win32-based, still fully MS-dependent new IDE would try to solve?

Olaf

[Schmidt]

...t I use approx 5 to 10 max user controls per project vs 50-100 forms and 50-100 classes. So having to re-implement them is not a big deal by any means.

Based on what tool (language or lib) do you plan to re-implement them - and what graphics-lib will you use for rendering content on them?

Also don't forget, that your own (user-written) Graphical-Containers are "one thing" (Widget-wise) -
the other thing is, the whole bunch of additional (Base-)Controls, which currently occupy your 100 Forms in the dozens.

Each and everyone of those has to exist in an (ideally interface-compatible) and platform-independent usable format.
And it doesn't stop with these Controls/Widgets - a new Form-Engine (which is later able to host and "site" these new platform-independent Controls)
has to be developed as well - in any new IDE-attempt somebody plans to invest a lot of time into.

The IDE from stuck-in-the-past (which you want to see the sources for), does not address any of the requirements I've just mentioned -
and it is also not written around an integrated (real) compiler (which produces binaries, that are independent from the VB-runtime-dlls).

So I'm not really sure, what you plan to do with the sources, once you have them...

Olaf

[dz32]

[...]

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I just want an IDE that works like my old familiar VB6 IDE. I'd like it to be language aware. Bugger a future VB6 if the whole project has to be so complicated, future proof and encompassing. I assume the compiler can be called from the command line? If so a workflow could be established.

VB6 - I have no solution, obviously. The IDE however, I'd settle for stuck-in-past's 'hack' at the moment. The real thing can come later or not at all - from what Olaf states, it will never come given that so much effort has already been put into it and years later we still have nothing...

If that is the case then let stuck-in-past's IDE stand for what it is, a RAD design, a mere example, a foretaste of what is to come even if it is built from old rope and shoes. Kickstarter projects have been built from less.

[dreammanor]

At the least be positive toward those to others that would like to try. If I had your skills I would act as a father figure and give encouragement.

A father will not encourage his children to walk in the dark towards a path leading to a cliff, he will tell his children that they are in the wrong direction.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

A father will not encourage his children to walk in the dark towards a path leading to a cliff, he will tell his children that they are in the wrong direction.

Quite true - and to continue the analogy, sometimes you have to let your children learn from their own mistakes... and occasionally something new and better springs from that. In any case it may be merely an opinion on whether it is actually the wrong direction.

Let us say it is just not the direction the father would like them to go - but perhaps they like rock climbing!

[dreammanor]

There is a Chinese saying: Climb to the tree to find fish (缘木求鱼), which is a metaphor: The direction or approach is wrong, it is impossible to achieve the goal.

If we're all kids and we go to the cliff during the day, maybe we want to go rock climbing. In fact, we are not children, we are adults and we want to find an escape tool from a ship that is speeding up sinking. If we choose the wrong tools or methods, then we will waste a lot of time and may lose the opportunity to escape. Therefore, it's very important to find the right direction. Platform-independence is the right direction.

[Schmidt]

I just want an IDE that works like my old familiar VB6 IDE.

We already have such an IDE - it's called VB6 (and yes - one can install it on Win10 in half an hour or so).

The IDE however, I'd settle for stuck-in-past's 'hack' at the moment.

What would you use it for then, once you have this 'hack' available on your machine?
What benefits do you think it offers - over the existing VB6-IDE (which - so far - runs well and stable on Win10)?

Sorry to "stress you" again with those questions, but they are important ones to ask IMO
(because if you really think about them, answering them to the best of your knowledge -
I think you'll gain a better understanding, why a potential new IDE has to be developed in a certain way).

If all you can come up with is "I want nothing to change - everything shall remain as it is ... just different" -
then sorry, that's not a realistic view on reality - just stick with VB6 in this case - until it goes out of scope.

The main-reasons for investing (man-years of) efforts to write a new IDE are, to have (in the end)
something available which is able to "address new things" (the most important among those would be,
to gain - for the first time - independence from MS).

And of course "new things" have to be learned (they require time-investments on the side of the user).

Olaf

[wqweto]

But Olaf. . .

What people want is New Things™ to happen with the old IDE -- it's *that* simple!

People want VB6 projects in the cloud (latest thread), people want VB6 projects in the browser like WASM/asm.js target (latest thread), people want to *finally* celebrate the year of Linux on the desktop FWIW! :-))

There is a *demand* and the community does nothing to address it!

LOL

cheers,
</wqw>

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Olaf, I really liked to code on the old IDE.

The idea of a VB7 is a dead one I think. If anyone was going to do it, it was going to be you and I'm guessing due to the absence of anything solid over the last three or so years that a new VB7 is in reality a dead idea. We aren't going to see it.

So, accepting that, I just want to see his IDE. I want to see it, that's it. If it was almost usable and language-awareness was a possibility I might think of even using it.

This forum is for VB6 and I realised a long time ago that I suppose VB6 really is dead and that I should move away from it and that is what I've done. It functions, just - and it still installs if you have a fair wind behind you but it is probably best given all the hints from MS, to move on.

That IDE is not a solution to the VB world's requirements, it is just a curiosity.

So, in truth I'm talking about the IDE and you are coming from the direction of VB6. So, we are probably talking cross-purposes here but from my point of view anything that can blow a little more life back into VB6 is a good thing.

That IDE, does it do that? Not from your point of view - and I can see where you are coming from - but -

I'd still like to see it!

[Shaggy Hiker]

So, if you saw it, what would make you feel good about it? What could it do that would encourage you? What could it do that would discourage you?

The VB6 IDE was fine for its time, but as an IDE...it was only good for its time. Many features have been added to the VS IDE that has made it more and more productive. The languages have certainly changes a lot, but the IDE has also changed a whole lot, and certainly for the better...except that launching has gotten slower and slower as the IDE begins to resemble a game more and more. With 2015, the slide bar now has three different 'rails' in it that can show different things using different colors. All of that drawing takes processing power, which can slow things down. Whether that features is a good thing depends on whether you like having the information on the rails versus the slow down when launching. But the IDE has certainly improved in many ways, even if it may now be going a bit too far.

That's why I ask what features would make you feel good about a new IDE and what features would make you dislike it.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

So, if you saw it, what would make you feel good about it? What could it do that would encourage you? What could it do that would discourage you?

Sorry, I have no answer to any of this, assuming it is aimed at me.

I want to see it, that's it.

I'll draw any conclusions and make any assessment when I've seen it.

[dilettante]

I'm not sure any of this matters anyway.

IDEs are going to look a lot more like Atom or Visual Studio Code. Those are both Microsoft properties now and quite similar in architecture so they will probably merge eventually.

Most client-side application code will probably move toward JavaScript, TypeScript, Go, Dart, and the like. Stuff like Java and C# will linger for years of course while C, C++, and other niche languages will also have their place but fewer programmers will earn them as time goes on.


Look up the term "cargo cult."

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I think you are right, I'm bringing my javascript and associated technologies up to strength.

I think the time for a new VB6 was a few years ago and disappointingly although it might be the best of times to create such a tool (kickstarters, cheap tech., cheap o/ses and open source tools abounding), the will just isn't there or it is deemed just too complicated.

That glimpse of an almost-IDE just stirred my VB6 gland for a minute or two.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Not trying to "pick on *you* specifically" - just using your reply to point out the problem (because it's "typical",
It's a comparatively small package - called .NET-Core - and it contains (so far) no GUI-library or -GUI-Classes...
and that alone should raise a few alarm-triggers - because the only GUI-output it seems willing to address (e.g. with the accompanying IDE here: https://code.visualstudio.com/)
is based on a HTML5 rendering-engine - and "backend-wise" addressing "the cloud".

So, MS is clearly moving away from Win32 and any "MS-GUI-tools or libs as you knew them"...
(no CommonControls, no .NET.WinForms, no .NET-WPF, no .NET-XAML is used by .NET-core) ...

They did recently announce https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dot...-applications/ so at least on Windows net core will support Windows desktop development (WPF, UWP and Winforms) development
And at the same time, more and more Unix-Tools and -libs become part of Win10.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Sorry, I have no answer to any of this, assuming it is aimed at me.

I want to see it, that's it.

I'll draw any conclusions and make any assessment when I've seen it.

Yeah, I was just curious as to how you would evaluate it.

One thing that does seem to be lacking in the world is really good IDEs. People have noted the wide use of JavaScript, but there isn't an IDE for JS out there that is particularly good. There are tools, but you're barely getting past NotePad level of IDE for JS, which is baffling to me. MS has been doing better with each version of VS, and the 2017 JS IDE is considerably better than the 2015 IDE, but it's nowhere close to what exists in VS for C/C++, C#, or VB. They're moving in the right direction, they just aren't there, yet. As far as I know, you can say roughly the same thing about darn near every IDE out there.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Agreed, I gave up trying to find a good javascript IDE and so dropped a level to code editors and even then it was a struggle to find one that was current, supported and configurable and that offered some of the more advanced features of a code editor. I tried 10-15 editors for weeks at a time over a period of two years.

In the end I settled upon Kate, a text editor from the KDE/Kubuntu stable that functions well on Windows. However, I could not persist with it as some features are too unix-like for a died-in-the-wool-windowser like myself. I found RJtextEd just a month ago and it is my go-to code editor for .js. The dev implements features almost on demand as long as they are relevant and do-able.

As far as editors go it is brand new to the scene, only been around for seven or eight months or so. It is free to use and has an active forum and is one of the best editors around already.

In the absence of an IDE, RJtextEd does it for me as it language-aware and has decent multi-file search, tabbed documents, line numbers &c &c. Best of all it is massively configurable.



Shaggy, apologies for not appreciating what you were rooting for - I wrote an article about my search here that might help you understand what functionality I was searching for:

https://yereverluvinuncleber.deviant...itor-742180079

[axisdj]

Based on what tool (language or lib) do you plan to re-implement them - and what graphics-lib will you use for rendering content on them?

Also don't forget, that your own (user-written) Graphical-Containers are "one thing" (Widget-wise) -
the other thing is, the whole bunch of additional (Base-)Controls, which currently occupy your 100 Forms in the dozens.

Each and everyone of those has to exist in an (ideally interface-compatible) and platform-independent usable format.
And it doesn't stop with these Controls/Widgets - a new Form-Engine (which is later able to host and "site" these new platform-independent Controls)
has to be developed as well - in any new IDE-attempt somebody plans to invest a lot of time into.

The IDE from stuck-in-the-past (which you want to see the sources for), does not address any of the requirements I've just mentioned -
and it is also not written around an integrated (real) compiler (which produces binaries, that are independent from the VB-runtime-dlls).

So I'm not really sure, what you plan to do with the sources, once you have them...

Olaf

Olaf, I do understand what you are saying, I made the assumption the ide had a compiler build as does vb6 ide. So yes you are correct if it is just an IDE dependent on VB runtime and does not have a compiler built in, that would be a problem.

As far as the user controls, I would re-implement them using vbrich drawing engine in classes.

It was mentioned earlier about lazarus binding to the vb6 syntax, what are your thoughts on that?

WP

[dreammanor]

Agreed, I gave up trying to find a good javascript IDE and so dropped a level to code editors and even then it was a struggle to find one that was current, supported and configurable and that offered some of the more advanced features of a code editor. I tried 10-15 editors for weeks at a time over a period of two years.

In the end I settled upon Kate, a text editor from the KDE/Kubuntu stable that functions well on Windows. However, I could not persist with it as some features are too unix-like for a died-in-the-wool-windowser like myself. I found RJtextEd just a month ago and it is my go-to code editor for .js. The dev implements features almost on demand as long as they are relevant and do-able.

As far as editors go it is brand new to the scene, only been around for seven or eight months or so. It is free to use and has an active forum and is one of the best editors around already.

In the absence of an IDE, RJtextEd does it for me as it language-aware and has decent multi-file search, tabbed documents, line numbers &c &c. Best of all it is massively configurable.



Shaggy, apologies for not appreciating what you were rooting for - I wrote an article about my search here that might help you understand what functionality I was searching for:

https://yereverluvinuncleber.deviant...itor-742180079

The current VB6 IDE is actually good enough, the JavaScript IDE is another topic. IMO, the biggest problems with VB6 are the following four:

1. Cannot compile and generate 64-bit applications
2. Lack of web development frameworks
3. Cannot develop mobile applications
4. Not platform independent

I don't think the IDE from stuck-in-the-past can solve any of the above problems.

Similarly, if "a New Basic Language" (comes from china) mentioned by loquat(OP) cannot solve the above problems, then this "new Basic Language" is meaningless.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Shaggy, apologies for not appreciating what you were rooting for - I wrote an article about my search here that might help you understand what functionality I was searching for:

https://yereverluvinuncleber.deviant...itor-742180079

Having read that, I realize I feel about the same way, which is why I stick with VS2010 for as much work as I can. It doesn't do JS, but I've long felt it was the best IDE that MS ever put out. A mix of performance and features that was nicely balanced, and looked good, too. Since then, they got feature heavy, before that, they were feature light.

[szlamany]

I wrote an article about my search here that might help you understand what functionality I was searching for:

https://yereverluvinuncleber.deviant...itor-742180079

TPU! I haven't thought of that editor in decades! Could write all your own cool little edit macros - like "go to the end of the line and put "&" in the last column" type stuff.

EVE!

[yereverluvinuncleber]

TPU! I haven't thought of that editor in decades! Could write all your own cool little edit macros - like "go to the end of the line and put "&" in the last column" type stuff.

EVE!

I have a full EDT editor for Windows if you want a copy, it is freeware.

I always ran TPU in EDT mode as all those EDT key bindings are still firmly hard-wired through my head and my fingers. I still use it from time to time in my job (occasional VMS sysadmin) and occasionally when I want to do some complex macro work.

[wqweto]

https://www.infoworld.com/article/32...ink-it-is.html

Look at any CNCF project, Ryan has shown, and you’ll see that virtually all of its contributions come from fewer than ten people. In fact, if you drill down deeper, you see that most work is done by just *two* people on any given project.

So, Olaf and who else?

cheers,
</wqw>

[Elroy]

https://www.infoworld.com/article/32...ink-it-is.html

Look at any CNCF project, Ryan has shown, and you’ll see that virtually all of its contributions come from fewer than ten people. In fact, if you drill down deeper, you see that most work is done by just *two* people on any given project.

Hey wqweto,

I haven't been closely following this thread, as I'm not sure I see where it's going. And, I do see the point that article is trying to make. But I think it glosses over much larger realities, and is probably largely propaganda put out by large closed-source shops to give them cover for making more money at our expense.

When I think of well known open-source projects, the ones that immediately come to mind are:
Gimp
Blender
Libre Office
Notepad++
VLC media player
Linux

That article would have us believe that projects like this are primarily written by one or two people. But it's a real stretch to make that claim. I think it would be much better to claim that these open-source projects go through pushes at various time periods. We could take any one of those and see that there was probably an initial development by a small group of people (possibly one) who released an excellent product. And then, over time, it needed to accommodate new hardware and OS advances. The original team may have moved on, but, because it was open-source, another team (or maybe one new person) picked it up and pushed it forward. In the case of all of those open-source projects I've mentioned, that's absolutely the case. In fact, in some cases, we can trace back several iterations of a push taken on by subsequent teams.

In some cases, there would be forks that competed with each other until the superior product (still open-source) won the day for a while. That's absolutely the case for Libre Office, VLC, and Linux.

Now, with that improved understanding, let's try and lay VB6 over that. Yeah, VB6 has also certainly had several pushes through the years (to become VB6). However, lets imagine what we might have if it was open-sourced as VB6, or possibly even earlier. I'm just speculating, but I have little doubt we'd have a 64-bit compiler by now, with many more improvements. I just don't see a downside for us VB6 developers (regarding VB6 or any clone of it).

And hey, sorry if I missed the point you were making with that post. I just feel the hair on my neck stand up anytime anyone suggests that open-source is a bad idea.

All The Best,
Elroy

[wqweto]

Bad idea? Nooo!

My point is that vNext is going to be a one-man show, two max. Just lowering expections of anyone reading such threads that community here is miraculously going to form a team of experts/hobbyists that are going to first plan, then implement. . . anything.

vNext might come up next month w/ a post on vbforums in Linus style: "Hey guys, here is something I've been workng lately. Enjoy!" or equaly possible this is not goint to happen in the next 10 years.

Here is my predictions how it's possible to happen: someone will compile LLVM w/ stdcall conventions, make VB6 wrappers and port kaleidoscope toy-language compiler in VB6. Then he or someone else will write a basic VB6-toy-language compiler. Then he or someone else will tweak it to use LLVM's interpreter for edit&continue. Then he or someone else will implement language services on top of symbol-tables and hook VSCode IDE. Then he or someone else will undertake VB6 Forms subsystem as a completely separate (dependent) project. Then Olaf will try to port RC5 (for Windows only) as a separate project. Then he or someone else will implement Win/COM compatibility layer for Linux as a separate project, etc.

In 2018 betting on LLVM for any future language development is a pretty safe bet. And as of now there are too many vNext IDE and none close to vNext compiler/interpreter efforts.

cheers,
</wqw>

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Palemoon, firefox, thunderbird, audacity, GIMP, Kubuntu, KATE, open hardware monitor, quake I, npackd, NVU/Kompozer, Joomla, Elxis, Wordpress - all open source products that I use continuously, all created with normal development teams of any size from small to large.

[wqweto]

Palemoon, firefox, thunderbird, audacity, GIMP, Kubuntu, KATE, open hardware monitor, quake I, npackd, NVU/Kompozer, Joomla, Elxis, Wordpress - all open source products that I use continuously, all created with normal development teams of any size from small to large.

No, all of these are started by small teams w/ size 1-2 devs e.g.

Elxis Team
Elxis CMS is being developed by the Elxis Team. Elxis Team is a small team that develops and coordinates the Elxis project. The eldest member and the chief developer of Elxis Team is Ioannis Sannos. Stavros Stratakis is also very active member of Elxis Team. Our headquarters are located in Athens, Greece. Besides this team there are the Elxis Community Team members. . .

This is one core dev, w/ second dev becoming his right hand soon after project commencement.

cheers,
</wqw>

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Whether an idea started with one person or not is not really relevant. All ideas normally start with one person - From that point they will have varying size teams, all those projects demonstrated that, from large to small dependant upon their lifecycle and the popularity of the tool. At various points during their lifecycles the team will grow, sometimes duplicate, sometimes shrink and finally fall back to a small and dedicated team. As do ALL projects. For example. The Joomla team was initially a commercial product with a commercial genesis and then shrank down when the company collapsed, then it was open-sourced and a small team took it forward. Then a team of several dedicated devs took it to 1.5 and beyond. The IRC chat will show you the number of devs involved in Joomla 2.5/3.0 and it wasn't a trickle... The others that contributed code via forks, 3rd party components, module and plugins was enormous. It all depends how, when and what you count. You can't just make a sweeping statement and say all o/s projects are small. That is disengenuous.

[wqweto]

You can't just make a sweeping statement and say all o/s projects are small. That is disengenuous.

That is statistics. Only 1-2 devs on any given OSS projects are committing most of the changes to the repo. It turns out the distribution is outrageously uneven, w/ distinct outliers doing most of the work. Most of these projects are like openssl: heavily depended on by commercial efforts and totally underfunded/staffed.

The expected distribution in any team (commercial or otherwise) is for the few top contributors to do most of the work. The so called Price’s "law" states that the square root of the number of people in a domain do 50% of the work. So in a team of 100 members only 10% of them will do 50% of the work.

cheers,
</wqw>

[techgnome]

That is statistics. Only 1-2 devs on any given OSS projects are committing most of the changes to the repo. It turns out the distribution is outrageously uneven, w/ distinct outliers doing most of the work.

Just because only a couple people actually make the commits, doesn't mean they are the ones making the changes. Take Wordpress... I was involved in it in it's early days. I made submissions to it. When I was active with it, there was close to 20 people working on it, making improvements. But we didn't have direct access to the repo... Only 3 people did. So, yeah, their names are what's on the commits, but the changes were coming directly from the community at large. There was a formalized process for it. If we saw something that needed to be changed/updated, we're submit a ticket, describe the problem and include the proposed changes. It was then reviewed. Sometimes it was accepted as-is, sometimes it needed to be tweaked before being accepted, sometimes it was rejected. But at least it was aa formal process and we all k new the rules going into it. So just beause there are only a couple names on the code in the repo commits, doesn't mean that those are the only ones involved. It might just mean that those are the gatekeepers, nothing more.

-tg