dcsimg
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 46

Thread: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

  1. #1

  2. #2
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    It could be even bigger news that 18 years later VB6 remains such a successful development tool so late in life despite the lack of anything but minimal support in the past 11 years.

    There is a lot to be said for stability, something .Net does not offer at all and VB6 really only does because of the way it was orphaned. I think an argument can be made that VB6 users should be thankful for being abandoned to the Nile in a basket of reeds.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Yeah, try that out. Let us know how it goes for you.

    I think I agree with you. One of the advantages of ANSI standardization is that you get some stable feature set and things can stay put for a while. With .NET, there is always a need to sell a new version, but the language largely stabilized with VS2010. The additions since then, for the most part, have been minor. The exceptions is that there is an ongoing attempt to come up with a way to make multi-threading easier for people to grasp/include, which is becoming increasingly important since nobody makes single core computers anymore (there are still some around, but they're going extinct). Still, I work with VS2010 and 2015, at the moment. The biggest difference is in the IDE, not the language, and I personally think that the IDE may be trying too hard, by now.

    Still, one of my biggest gripes about the legacy crowd is the refrain, "We're better off this way....unless we hear some rumor of a suggestion that MS might revive VB6, then we'll cling to that until all hope is gone, then it's back to saying that we're better off this way."
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  4. #4
    Hyperactive Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    461

    Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Happy birthday, VB (the real one - classic)! I'm glad that I had great time with you!
    Last edited by MikiSoft; May 23rd, 2016 at 06:55 AM.

  5. #5
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,524

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Ugh, that link makes me sick. .NET isn't the same VB that started 25 years ago jerks.

    Lots of support for open sourcing VB6 in the comments... imagine what we could do with the source?? MS would never do it though, a few key modernizations and people would drop .NET in droves.

  6. #6
    Lively Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    73

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB! - Microsoft celebrate by censoring campaign

    On Saturday May 21st Sue Gee of i-programmer magazine www.i-programmer.info posted a call on the Microsoft UserVoice site.
    The call asked that, on the 25th anniversary of Classic VB, it should be returned to its programmers by open-sourcing the VB6 programming language and IDE.
    On the 25th anniversary of Classic VB, Return It To Its Programmers

    Sue said “Don’t deride the attempt to make Classic VB open source if you are happy with .NET. There is no doubt C# and VB .NET are sophisticated well designed languages and perhaps you, like me, have no desire to return to VB6 or anything like it. Vote for the proposal not because you want to use VB6 or that you think it is worth having – Vote for it because a company like Microsoft should not take a language away from its users.”

    The post rapidly gained support on the Microsoft UserVoice site.

    By Sunday evening, Microsoft closed down Sue’s call, preventing any further voting.

    Microsoft have made it clear just how they intend “celebrating” the 25th birthday of Visual Basic.
    Visual Basic Reaches 25th Birthday - Microsoft Censors Campaign To Open Source It

    Clearly Microsoft hold their users in contempt.

    Your shameful action, Microsoft, leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

    Happy Birthday, Visual Basic.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,527

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    It's good to see this debate hasn't lost any of its vitriol. There's staggering amounts of ill-informed opinion flying both ways in those User Voice comments

    I personally don't separate .Net from Classic and I see one as a progression from the other. Both have made enormous contributions to our industry and they deserve their quarter century of life. Long may it continue.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    The MS User Voice site started out as a source of entertainment, but I came to realize that it just raised my bile level to no purpose. A handful of people seem to think that the votes have meaning. To some extent, they do, but mostly they do not. The votes may reflect an interest in some topic, or they may reflect some passion on a topic, but they are not a plebiscite. MS won't be changing the name to VB McVBFace, no matter how many votes are cast on the topic, nor is there any suggestion that they might.

    The sites about getting ideas, most of which are not directly addressed one way or the other by MS. In fact, MS responds to only a very few of all of those threads. The highest voted item was never addressed directly (though it has been addressed indirectly), so number of votes doesn't even guarantee, or even seem to increase the odds of, MS responding to the thread directly. So, a group of angry folks has been spamming the site with repeated, generally duplicate, suggestions regarding VB6, and MS has decided to simply merge them all into declined suggestions. That doesn't result in outrage and calls for censorship with other ignored suggestions, but it sure does with that one.

    The whole thing should be a sociology experiment, but as for me, I've come to realize that it aggravates me more than amuses me. I will still visit to see what suggestions are popping up, but not very often.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  9. #9
    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    South of the Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    2,256

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The MS User Voice site started out as a source of entertainment...
    The whole thing should be a sociology experiment, ...
    It's simply a shutter on the dungeon door to let the denizens get a breath of dank air from the basement corridor.
    "Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt.
    "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk.
    "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Well, I happen to LIKE the musty, humid, odor of a cellar, as long as sewage isn't present.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  11. #11

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    You're suprised by hate on slashdot??? I thought that was the premise of that site.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #13

  14. #14
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    It will never be open-sourced, and even if it did that probably wouldn't help anyone. For all we know it can't even be built using VC++ since it may rely on proprietary versions of ATL or MFC or something as well as who knows how many other tools. C2.EXE is based on pass two of the VC/VC++ compiler and they won't open-source that either.

    Considering how much work was done on the codebase over the years from VB1 to VB6 it could also be quite a large can of worms to work on.

    I suspect some people think "open source" means "free to use the compiled product" anyway, which it doesn't.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    True, and open source has a checkered history, as well. I use LibreOffice, and quite like it. However, I chose LibreOffice over OpenOffice because OpenOffice had become moribund after an internal dispute in which a bunch of people split off to form LibreOffice. So, the OpenOffice open source project had flourished for a time, then died. That was then. Today, OpenOffice has been revived and is at about the same place as LibreOffice. Due to the choices made in open source licenses, LibreOffice can incorporate things added to OpenOffice, but OpenOfice can't incorporate things added to LibreOffice....but stay tuned, the next chapter has yet to be written.

    That's open source: As long as there are interested, competent, people engaged in advancing the program then it will advance. There is no guarantee that it will continue, or as to which direction it will go.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  16. #16
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    There are even incremental improvements that could be useful, but Microsoft has no incentive to make them and the .Net crowd would shout them down anyway.

    I'd settle for a new Service Pack that did nothing but make bug fixes, provide an updated C2.EXE with better support for newer CPUs, and maybe a "supported" OCX that duplicates the intrinsic set of controls with Unicode versions of them. If they wanted to update the API Viewer, add scrollwheel support directly to the IDE, and provide a reg-free COM packager to supplement the PDW and VSI 1.1 those would be handy too but less important.

    Any suggestions to expand the core language or radically enhance the IDE would certainly fall on deaf ears though.

    Lots of little things causing problems these days would require fixes deep within OLE and these will never happen.

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    That's the other problem. As far as I can tell, everybody who wants to revive VB6 wants it a different way. Some want it just as it was with no changes, others want to add more threading, others want it just as it was...except for compiling to 64-bits, and so on. One guy seems more focused on the VB6 IDE. That guy seems like he'd be incensed if VB6 were brought back, but as a member of VS in the modern IDE.

    Frankly, I think MS would be crazy to bring it back simply because whatever they did would make a fraction of that group deliriously happy, make another fraction mildly satisfied, and make the rest even more angry than they already are.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  18. #18
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    I don't think incremental non-breaking improvements would bother anyone. It wouldn't satisfy everyone by any means, but it seems odd they'd reject a few improvements.

    Personally I see little benefit in shoe-horning it into the VS IDE. The last thing I want is something bloated and buggy going through gratuituous changes every 6 months that wants to phone home all the time and has a slow and cumbersome Help system.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Does it have any help system at all anymore? I haven't even looked at that since 2008. I do think that 2010 had something, but I didn't use it. The web is so much better these days that help systems for something like this are a waste of time in most situations. The only people who would benefit would be those who don't have internet access and won't have internet access. I've been in that position, at times, but not frequently enough, nor for long enough, that I bothered looking for built in help.

    As for the features, the VB6 IDE has exactly one thing going for it: It loads fast. The rest of that is nonsense. I didn't think so much of the changes with 2013, until I started using them, at which point I realized they were really quite useful. I'm content to stick with 2010 for most things, so I can live without the added features of the newer IDE, but they DO speed up navigation. Other than that, though, the IDE is so vastly better than what was around in VB6 that it's painful to go back to it. You can do the same things, it's just that you do them slower. The IDE is lighter, so it loads faster, but from then on, it gets in your way more than it helps.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  20. #20
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Don't you pretty much have to fall back on the web for documentation?

    At the rate of mutation of .Net you'd need fiber data rates to download Help updates fast enough. No wonder you are willing to put up with 3rd rate documentation technology.

  21. #21
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Who wouldn't fall back on the web for documentation....for anything? Does anybody look anything up in books anymore?

    By the way, .NET isn't changing much at all. There are new features that are being added, though those tend to be in increasingly obscure sub-domains of the language, or with the addition of different technologies. The VAST majority of the language hasn't seen any significant addition since FW 3.5 came out in 2008. At that point, LINQ and Lambdas were added. If you don't use those, then the language hasn't changed since 2005. In fact, everything you would have learned with 2005 is still entirely relevant and unchanged today. There are new ways to do some things, and some of those new ways are better...others are just more concise. Prior to 2005, I agree that things changed quite a bit. The bulk of the language remained the same, but the addition of generics in 2005 greatly changed the best code for solving most problems, and the addition of the application framework changed how the startup of an app took place. Since 2005, though, you could ignore all the changes without any difficulty at all. Not that you should, of course, because there are all those incremental changes. More than were ever made for VB from 4 through 6, for that matter, but you can ignore them at no cost.

    By now, this flash in the pan that is .NET has been under continuous improvement for longer than classic VB was, even if you start at VB1. All things end, eventually, and then we move to the next thing. Sometimes, it's us moving to the next thing that causes the end of the old. I expect to go through one more major language iteration before I retire. I just don't know what it is, yet.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  22. #22
    You don't want to know.
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    4,580

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    You'd think we could come together for one damn thread and appreciate the language that put us all on this little corner of the internet. But no, that'd be asking too much. Let the record show, if we're going to play us vs. them, the first shots were fired by a VB6 developer before a .NET developer even showed up to say a word.

    For 18 years I struggled with the bad reputation VB has. I felt it was undeserved. Now I have come to believe it's not about the language itself, but the kind of people who set up shop as career VB programmers. And they work very hard to deserve that reputation, they wear it like a badge. In a lot of ways, participating in the VB community feels like being in a bucket of freshly-caught crabs, headed for the boiler, and every crab's fighting hard to push down all the other crabs. I've felt welcomed everywhere else but VB's community.

    There are exceptions. There's people honestly trying to do the best they can and advance their craft that use VB. I feel sorry for them, too, because I think they'd be happier in another community but odds are their boss won't let them switch to C#. They're the reason I tend to stick around. That and I'm probably going to outlive the worst of the community.

    So here it is, VB's 25-year legacy. 8 glorious years of pushing the envelope of Rapid Application Development, then 17 years of making fart noises and jerking-off gestures when someone asks, "Is this the best we can do?" Congratulations, VB. You earned this: 💩

    But the sad thing is, you can't render it.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  23. #23
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    It is probably inevitable.

    Remember, .Net comes to us from the Great Satan of Software. This is the guy who called his first Windows language "VB Killer" out of bitter resentment when the DOS world he was enjoying profits and glory from went by the boards as VB brought Windows application development to the masses. That sputtered and died. So he got hired by Microsoft then he tried to steal Java and got Microsoft sued. They bought off the owners of Java, huddled with lawyers and created a clone just different enough in key ways that another lawsuit wouldn't be likely to succeed.

    It has a very tainted pedigree.

    VB.Net is a little like having somebody who has avowed to kill you forcibly move into your home, take your name, rob you blind, then tie you up in a corner and beat you on a fairly regular basis - while the bought off corrupt "cops" turn a blind eye to it all.

    Why would anyone be surprised at some resentment?

  24. #24
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,527

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Personally, whenever I see this debate I'm reminded of a quote from American History X:-

    Bob Sweeney: There was a moment, when I used to blame everything and everyone for all the pain and suffering and vile things that happened to me, that I saw happen to my people. Used to blame everybody. Blamed White people, blamed society, blamed God. I didn't get no answers 'cause I was asking the wrong questions. You have to ask the right questions.
    Derek Vinyard: Like what?
    Bob Sweeney: Has anything you've done made your life better?
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #25
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Not much of a debate really.

    There are two different things: VB and VB.Net. One is almost entirely unsupported aside from "it just works" and the other is still undergoing evolution (even though that has apparently slowed).

    It seems very unlikely that Microsoft will either begin evolving VB again, and even less likely they'll "open source" it in any sense. I don't really see them promoting any other compiled language besides C and C++ in the future even though they've been playing with JavaScript and pre-processors that generate JavaScript a bit lately.

    So we have a few facts and a lot of supposition. As far as I can tell that sums it up and hasn't changed for quite a while.

    Is there anything to debate there?

  26. #26
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,527

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Is there anything to debate there?
    There shouldn't be, that's kinda my point. Everything you just said seems 100% correct to me and yet that discussion keeps coming up and lots of folks keep getting hot under the collar about... not much as far as I can see.

    Another apt quote from American History X:-
    Danny Vinyard: So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it. Derek says it's always good to end a paper with a quote. He says someone else has already said it best. So if you can't top it, steal from them and go out strong. So I picked a guy I thought you'd like. 'We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  27. #27
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    What the heck is American History X??? I never got past American History II. Heck, I didn't even know it goes that high.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  28. #28
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    One thing is certain: MS is sitting on a HUGE pile of cash. They don't seem any better than anybody else at predicting the future, but with that pile of cash, we can be pretty certain that there will continue to be a wide variety of paths followed in an attempt to find success in an uncertain future.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  29. #29
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    What the heck is American History X??? I never got past American History II. Heck, I didn't even know it goes that high.
    I think that was the course covering Malcom Little. In some schools it is just a 28 day course, some years 29 days.

  30. #30
    You don't want to know.
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    4,580

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    I sort of rest my case, there. There are a lot of problems holding VB back.

    The one we can't fix is behavioral. I don't need to go too deep into that one.

    The one that could be addressed is the insistence that VB must fill the desktop niche only. The world isn't really betting on Desktop solutions right now. VB had a chance at being a relevant web language with ASP .NET MVC, but due to an absolutely flaccid community demand for language features that boat's left and only C# gets to play that game. It has an opportunity on the table with Xamarin to position itself as a mobile language, but I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen: the community isn't going to look at it, and eventually someone at MS is going to save some cash by dropping VB support.

    You can blame .NET all you want. VB .NET was a very relevant language right up until 2010 or so, when desktop's grip on the market started faltering. Apple and Google pulled the trigger on desktop, and the community's always felt bulletproof vests were for wimps.

    The world changed. VB didn't, and got left behind. This isn't a novel situation.
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; May 25th, 2016 at 09:54 AM.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  31. #31
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    You can blame .NET all you want. VB .NET was a very relevant language right up until 2010 or so, when desktop's grip on the market started faltering. Apple and Google pulled the trigger on desktop, and the community's always felt bulletproof vests were for wimps.
    That's what I want for breakfast: Scrambled metaphors.

    Desktop is still around in most businesses. I don't see my livelihood ever being totally detached from the desktop for the rest of my career (which is saying a lot less than I would prefer, unfortunately). I'm doing a bit of mobile, now, but the shape of that is still a bit murky. Tablets are a really obvious field data-acquisition platform, but they're kind of lacking in the feature set, at the moment. Apple is downright bizarre with some of the choices they made (iPads shut down around 85-90 degrees, so we have to drag them in the water to keep them functioning). Google has made some unfortunate decisions regarding external memory, but that's a constantly changing situation, though it's getting worse, not better. MS....is too hard to find.

    VB.NET, or even VB6, could still be a good mobile device language. All it would require would be the right change in the constantly changing mobile market. It seems unlikely, at this point, but I'm not ruling it out. As powerful as mobile devices are, currently, I still feel like we're in the early days of that technology.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  32. #32
    You don't want to know.
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    4,580

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    That Desktop is still a career prospect for you doesn't mean it's an indicator of the industry as a whole.

    My dad's a desk jockey. Pipeline inspections for an oil company. He drafts, reads, prints, and criticizes several-hundred page documents all day long. Slam dunk for a desktop app, right? He's been using a Surface Pro for a couple of years. Loves it. Doesn't want a desktop PC again. Same with his coworkers. And friends at conferences.

    Microsoft already has a tablet-only version of Office. If they pulled the plug on what we call "Desktop", he wouldn't notice, nor would most of his compatriots. That's not one anecdote. It's an industry.

    And I'm starting to see this in client software everywhere: businesses not already incorporating tablets are starting to like the promise of the Surface's hybrid mentality. And once they're used to using a tablet, they don't notice the Desktop going away. Used to every POS terminal I saw was either custom hardware or a PC. Now they're about 50% iPads or some generic Android.

    More and more, tools that "can't make the transition" like Visual Studio are the exception. The people who use them pay a lot for them. I anticipate this means, at some point, we're going to treat Desktop like mainframe, where you either rent the hardware or remote into an instance hosted in some cloud somewhere.

    And then there's this:
    All it would require would be the right change in the constantly changing mobile market.
    I can't speak for Android, but I've done native iOS work. My first book was for Objective-C targeting iOS 4. Reading that book and comparing it to modern code is roughly equivalent to reading my .NET 1.x books and comparing them to my VS 2015 code. What I mean to say is, while there's been a bit of API churn from version to version, that 'old' code works on iOS 9, though it will get many 'obsolete' warnings.

    When iOS updates, there's a several-month-long beta period in which Apple publishes what they plan to deprecate and how they expect you to adjust. Usually, the changes are small, they don't do wide-sweeping changes to the entire system all in one go. It looks unstable if you're on the outside. But these changes only have major impacts if you have a large-scale application, in which case you also have largish development teams ready to adjust to them.

    Granted, it's not quite the same "10 years promise" we tend to get from Microsoft. But Apple developers have been used to this for decades, and it's part of why Apple's been outmaneuvering MS: they don't have to worry about carrying 10 years of legacy code around, and most companies that haven't updated their iOS software in that long are out of business.

    Xamarin Forms is close. For brevity, let's settle on "It's too unstable for large-scale development, but for simple front-end work I'd argue VB works on iOS/Android."

    re: scrambled metaphors:

    We're stuck with multiple metaphors for a while. It's not clear how or if all software can transition away from the desktop metaphor. This last year has shown some products that were 'impossible' to port creeping onto the new metaphors (Photoshop and Office come to mind). We're going to have to straddle both sides until one or the other becomes dominant.

    Right now, MS is betting on UWP, which sort of tries to mash Desktop and mobile together into something cohesive. They're the only platform doing this. In Apple's ecosystem, you choose iOS or Mac OS, and there's no intrinsic support for targeting both with the same codebase. But the feeling I get is they're moving much more towards iOS as the sole platform. The only thing approaching a "desktop" strategy from Google is Chrome OS, and that's distinct from Android.

    Where's it going? I don't know. But I'm not diving back into any Desktop technologies for a few years yet.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  33. #33
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    What's the problem with a "desktop niche" language though? For web or mobile there are already many alternatives that are all but useless on a Windows desktop.

    Slowly vanishing niche or not, it remains viable for many business applications today. For traditional PC users whether working in a business or as a hobbyist, one-off and small community programming still makes a lot of sense using traditional desktop technologies.

    The web is pointless there. Who is going to set up the web hosting (even locally) to create small one-offs anyway? Nobody.

    Mobile is nearly pointless there, but I can see a strong argument for "desktop like" tools there too (especially for tablets). Dealing with cross-compiler tools on a second platform and deploying via "app stores" just doesn't make any sense. Yet there are darned few "program on Android and run on Android" tools even for that major ecosystem, let alone the far tinier iOS world.

    See The Dr. Richard Feynman Observatory BASIC! for Android for one of the few popular ones.

  34. #34
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,524

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    An important principle that will hold true for the forseeable future: mobile is for consumption, desktop is for production.
    So yes desktop will go way down in popularity, but people doing real work in creating digital stuff need the large screen, keyboard+mouse, and component capacity of a desktop.

  35. #35
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    557

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Yes, Happy Birthday VB. It was a real fun ride, for a while anyway!

  36. #36
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,966

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by fafalone View Post
    An important principle that will hold true for the forseeable future: mobile is for consumption, desktop is for production.
    So yes desktop will go way down in popularity, but people doing real work in creating digital stuff need the large screen, keyboard+mouse, and component capacity of a desktop.
    Well aren't we self-congratulatory, annointing ourselves "the creative ones!"


    One problem is that centrally-planned economies (like those driven by Wall Street, London, Frankfort, et al.) have little room for diversity.

    As soon as fools buy into "gluten-free" the planners decide that's where the profit lies, and before you know it all widely available food is "gluten-free" unless you grow your own.

    The same thing is happening with "mobile" like it or not. As the planners have seen mobile grow in sales and repeat-sales and "desktop" fail to keep pace in sales growth... they've begun to crowd "desktop" out of the market. As that happens more and more, desktop hardware becomes a niche product and prices rise dramatically.


    So pat yourself on the back as hard as you like, but expect to see costs rise to a point where you get squeezed out eventually. Conventional PCs will never disappear, but they may well turn into a pricy "industrial" market niche as consumers walk away for tablets and phones. You might be left with little alternative but expensive Apple Mactard and Microsoft Doofus Pro products to choose among.

  37. #37
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    That Desktop is still a career prospect for you doesn't mean it's an indicator of the industry as a whole.

    My dad's a desk jockey. Pipeline inspections for an oil company. He drafts, reads, prints, and criticizes several-hundred page documents all day long. Slam dunk for a desktop app, right? He's been using a Surface Pro for a couple of years. Loves it. Doesn't want a desktop PC again. Same with his coworkers. And friends at conferences.
    OK, I didn't mean a literal desktop box. I, too, have a Surface Pro, and it's better than the laptop I have for work as far as performance. However, it runs all the desktop apps I have, including Visual Studio. I bought it so that I could do development while on a month long bike trip. I do count that as part of the 'desktop environment' simply because the only difference between that and any other desktop system I use is the form factor. I suppose that it isn't literal desktop, so the more accurate term would probably be Windows application development.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  38. #38
    You don't want to know.
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    4,580

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    What's the problem with a "desktop niche" language though? For web or mobile there are already many alternatives that are all but useless on a Windows desktop.

    Slowly vanishing niche or not, it remains viable for many business applications today. For traditional PC users whether working in a business or as a hobbyist, one-off and small community programming still makes a lot of sense using traditional desktop technologies.
    For a niche company, nothing! But I don't think MS is planning on investments in desktop technologies. And the effort of releasing VB6/whatever as open-source represents some investment in desktop tech.

    I don't think MS or their shareholders see value in the kinds of one-off applications anymore. I think their intended behavior for customers that need them, in the future, is to rent out Azure instances of Desktop machines to run those. "Who's going to set up the web hosting?" Their story is they've already done it for you. "Who wants to fool with a cross-compiler for tablets?" UWP apps are applications that run on any Windows 10 device, write once, run anywhere. That's their story. UWP is the desktop.

    That paragraph is my speculation. And I acknowledge the Azure/UWP model is not ideal. I'm just reading what their press releases tell me and trying to interpret what they think their 90% case is. It's like they're a log floating in a river, and I'm considering which way I should steer my boat so I don't run into it. My interpretation is if you are a Windows Client developer and you are not investing in UWP, the road will be bumpy over the next few years.

    I'm a Windows Client developer in spirit, and I'm not paying attention to UWP. I feel like if they want to charge me for their development tools, it's their job to clear those rocks. Right now the iOS/Android road's a lot smoother, unless you're using Xamarin, which happens to also be a Microsoft product. I'm getting tired of bumpy roads, and I'm taking the first smooth fork I find whether or not it's on Windows.

    I bet if we check in on future me in two years, I'll be on the platform I feel is smoothest.
    This sounded cute in 2007 or so. But the reality of 2016 isn't lining up with it. The comics industry's very much interested in the Surface Pro, until now to do digital work they had to work with expensive Intuos tablet/monitor combos that cost as much as a PC on their own. Now they get the screen, digitizer, and computer all in one. My dad, and all of his compatriots in his pipeline safety industry, find the Surface's size to be more convenient than bulkier laptops and are fine with the smaller screen size. When it is a bother, it plugs into a dock and suddenly, bigger screen!

    I see an increasing trend of production on mobile. I see a shift in form factors and functionality in mobile OSes towards features that facilitate more 'production' style situations. For example, all three major mobile OSes support multiple apps on the screen at once. Win8 and iOS restrict it to a 'split screen' functionality. Win10 supports "Windows". Android varies between the two based on version and OEM implementations. I can't see where the train ends. This is still a young hardware category, but it's making impressive swings at the markets everyone claims Desktop will always have.

    Do you think Adobe invested in a Photoshop for the iPad Pro to be trendy? I think porting an x86/x64 application to ARM represents too much R&D investment to make that leap without some bit of confidence. Is it arrogance? We have to wait and see.

    So pat yourself on the back as hard as you like, but expect to see costs rise to a point where you get squeezed out eventually. Conventional PCs will never disappear, but they may well turn into a pricy "industrial" market niche as consumers walk away for tablets and phones.
    That's been my stance in every one of these threads. My wager is within 5 years, "Desktop Windows" is a product you rent out either via Azure instances or expensive mainframe-style leases. I don't know if that's going to be 'better' or 'worse' for enterprises. But I'm pretty sure they'll manage to find ways to make money.

    I smelled blood in the water in 2013, and looked for a boat headed away from Desktop Windows. Now I don't have to worry every BUILD or MIX that some hammer will fall and a feature I rely upon will become expensive legacy. Now when I report bugs against my tools, they tend to get filed and scheduled instead of "won't fix". It's a good feeling.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  39. #39
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,914

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    I agree with most of that. I see a future where your computer is in your pocket. When you get to a desk, you plug it in and have the full screen/keyboard/etc, then when you hit the road you unplug it and it's a tablet (phone screens seem a bit too cramped, to me, and as phones are getting bigger, it seems like that's the general consensus).

    The one issue I still have is with games. There ARE games for all major platforms, but the games found on Windows are generally superior in reach to those found on other platforms. You can see this in stores. There are sections for the various consoles, and for PCs, but it takes a large store to also have a section for Mac, and an even larger store to have a section for Android. Partly this is because iOS and Android apps tend to be sold online, but partly it's because the big releases ignore those platforms.

    Leisure pursuits are a bigger driver of hardware than lots of people acknowledge, and that might still skew the future.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  40. #40
    Fanatic Member namrekka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    639

    Re: Happy 25th Birthday, VB!

    Well...happy birthday and many thanks to VB & VB.NET.
    I'm I the only one that earned money with it?

    Now I'm going to blow the candles and eat the pie.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Featured


Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width