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Thread: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

  1. #81
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I don't expect you to sugar coat anything. You said that you enjoy trolling, and I'm not sure that I believe anything you've said in this thread. I did go back and re-read your posts. There actually was one where you explained your position. It came after a bomb-throwing post that would reasonably annoy plenty of people. You did try to tack back towards reason, but had managed to flag yourself as a mysoginist before that. Had you explained yourself from the outset, it probably would have gone better.

    For myself, I happen to be a member of the least discriminated against subset of people in the history of the world. Those groups that are struggling to get where I am? I have no problem with that. I'm not threatened by it, nor does it sound like I would be bothered by the movie based on the descent description you gave. It didn't sound feminist to me, nor did it sound out of line with Star Wars past. The virulence of your delivery, on the other hand, totally masked your message. Now your acting offended that people didn't like the message, but what people didn't like was the delivery. You could have said the same thing in ways that weren't offensive, and you actually did at one point, just a bit too late. However, because you started off with some mysogynistic dog-whistling, you ended up saying more about yourself than you did about the movie. If you weren't aware that you were doing that, it's something you ought to think about. You may not be communicating the message you want to communicate.
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  2. #82
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It came after a bomb-throwing post that would reasonably annoy plenty of people.
    You see, this is what I don't get. I never ever in all my life would have expected calling something "feminist garbage" or "feminist propoganda" to be any kind of bomb or even offensive. It's not like I'm describing a person here. I'm describing a movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    You did try to tack back towards reason
    More like I was coming to the realization that there were some hardcore feminists here. I never expect here of all places to be a feminist stronghold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    , but had managed to flag yourself as a mysoginist before that.
    Now you lost me. Could you explain this one. I'm really curious. I'm not even sure I know what that word even means. Yes I know the dictionary definition but it still doesn't make sense to me to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    For myself, I happen to be a member of the least discriminated against subset of people in the history of the world. Those groups that are struggling to get where I am? I have no problem with that. I'm not threatened by it, nor does it sound like I would be bothered by the movie based on the descent description you gave.
    Again, I'm lost. What does anything I said have to do with anybody's struggles. This is what I'm talking about. You all are coming here with all kinds of preconceived ideas and stapling it to me as if I actually mentioned any of those things. Where in any of my posts did I talk about people struggling or being threatened by anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It didn't sound feminist to me, nor did it sound out of line with Star Wars past.
    This could be excused. Most people who's seen Star Wars probably don't really know much about it's lore and backstories and such. While I'm not a die hard fan like those crazies that dress up like Chewbacca, I really did like this franchise a lot. Take it from a fan of the franchise, they butchered it. I'm not even bothering with the franchise anymore after this ridiculous movie.
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  4. #84
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by fafalone View Post
    Did anyone else have trouble taking Kylo Ren seriously because he looked and talked like a whiny emo teen?
    Kylo Ren is worst villain I've ever seen in this franchise. Completely predictable and uninteresting and not even that threatening. Assajj Ventress was the most interesting villain I've ever seen in the franchise. They should have taken notes on how to make a proper villain from the EU writers that created her.
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  5. #85
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    You see, this is what I don't get. I never ever in all my life would have expected calling something "feminist garbage" or "feminist propoganda" to be any kind of bomb or even offensive. It's not like I'm describing a person here. I'm describing a movie.
    Naturally, I was refering to your first post on the subject, which was mildly worded, which is why I called it dog-whistling. You meant to give an impression of the movie, but you gave an impression of yourself, instead. It may well be a mistaken impression, but considering the responses from others, I feel that the way I interpreted what you wrote was commonly shared. Before I explain that, though, let me mention that I'm a large, hairy, white guy of a certain age, but with what appears to be a manner that puts people at ease. Therefore, it no longer surprises me when somebody spouts off with some racist rant in my presence. They just assume that I share their loathsome beliefs, so they often don't couch their words in any guarded tones.

    From that perspective, I read this line:

    It panders so mindlessly and blatantly to feminism, its actually quite sickening
    as coming from a person who has serious issues with women and was 'dipping their toes' into the pool to see whether their views were acceptable. It wasn't and several people called you on it. Your last few posts started getting defensive, as if it was us who had a problem. It isn't. If you are upset, as you sounded, it may well be our doing, but it isn't our problem. You left an impression of a person who has an issue with strong female characters. Perhaps that isn't the impression you intended, but it's certainly the one you made. Had your second post been your first post, I doubt you would have felt attacked. That second post said the same thing, and said it with more detail and explanation, yet didn't leave the same negative impression.

    Considered from a different perspective, with that first quote, is there any way to read that other than that you are sickened by feminism? My mother's gravestone has a saying on it that could easily (and probably should be) read as feminist. I don't see myself as a feminist. I don't feel much like an activist on any issue. However, when somebody is 'sickened by feminism', then are they not sickened by my mother? How, then, do you expect me to regard somebody who is 'sickened by feminism'? And yet, I pretty much refrained from any serious contribution to this thread until you started to get defensive about the actions of others. You created an impression. If it was the impression that you intended, then live with it. If it was not the impression that you intended, perhaps you should consider your words more carefully.


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  6. #86
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I'm saying the movie was garbage because it's plot is not true to the Star Wars franchise, i.e the plot was terrible. The plot was terrible because their lead character made no sense at all. Their lead character made no sense because she was very one dimensional, boring and predictable. The lead character was one dimensional, boring and predictable because the writers wanted to lick the boots of feminism by giving feminists exactly what they wanted, a perfect woman that can do no wrong, cannot fail and is good at everything she does, even things she has never done before.
    Wow that a rather large leap to make Niya, and its seems what you see as Feminism is just not what everyone else here sees it as. Feminism as far as i can see is just not what you seems to think it is.

    The Whole Feminism movement was started to give Women the vote and promote equal rights which in the not to distant past women just did not have. Feminism today is about equality of work, pay and life choices for women the same as men.

    You seem to see it as some virulent attack on men, and that feminist propaganda always tries to show that women are better than men, but you cant equate a minority of shrill voices to a whole movement.

    Of course you get extremists in any cause, but that is what they are extremists.

    Anita Sarkeesian is a crackpot Youtube personality that makes videos complaining about all manner of inane nonsense while making sweeping and far-fetched claims about how these "things" are used by men to oppress women. She has a particular taste for complaining about how men use video games to oppress women. Anita Sarkeesian is not the only one like her, she's just the most well known but there are about a dozen or so clones of her all over popular culture. The thing about her and her clones is how much mainstream support they have, so much so that any off hand comment from anyone of these lunatics about anything that even slightly offends them could result in some poor dude losing his job
    Hmmm, While i am not really close to gaming circles originally i thought that the Gamer's may have a point, but the response of rape and death threats are just not acceptable no matter the context.

    So even if they had a point, when people are prepared to go that low they have lost the argument!

    More like I was coming to the realization that there were some hardcore feminists here. I never expect here of all places to be a feminist stronghold.
    Haha your on a largely male programming forum hardly what anyone would call a feminist stronghold by any definition.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    i thought that the Gamer's may have a point
    they had a point in so far as not all female depictions in games are derisory. I'm not sure Sarkeesian ever stated that all depictions were derisory but she did slant things that way and some of her more rabid followers would certainly have been happy to take it that far.

    None the less, you really don't have to look far to find misogyny in games. Tekkens bouncing boobs mode anyone (or was it soul calibre - I can't remember)? And lets face it, that paragon of feminine independence Lara Croft was clearly designed to appeal to young boys before appealing to young girls.

    Oh, and as an aside, you really can't hold Princess Leia up as a female role model. Her entire role in Episode 4 is "damsel in distress". She's captured by the evil wizard, spirited away in his dungeon, rescued by the brave knights and then gets to send her brave knights back out to do righteous battle while she tends hearth and home. Sure, she's sassy rather than simpering but that's where it ends. And don't quote her accuracy with a blaster to me because that's an accident of editing - nothing more.

    edit> Had a google - it was Soul Caliber

    I'm not a die hard fan like those crazies that dress up like Chewbacca
    Shaggy doesn't have to dress up. He just goes for a hike and acquires the look naturally

    Niya, I actually agree with a lot of what you've said. There are rabid feminists out there. The new film is a bit crap. Rey is bizarrely overpowered. Finn is largely there as a foil. Not all female games characters are negative stereotypes, neither are all female file characters. We differ on two points:
    1. I don't put these things together and see a conspiracy.
    2. I think you overstate the dangers of (or are overly offended by - I'm not sure which) radical feminism.
    If I'm debating those two points with you it's not because I'm on a witch hunt, it's because debating the points on which we agree isn't very interesting.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Feb 1st, 2016 at 07:51 AM.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I told you the thread wasn't getting any better, but that wisdom was removed.

    If VBForums were a feminist stronghold (and I don't believe it should be), two things would be true:
    • I would be surrounded by women.
    • Niya's posts would have been met with a very strong message from forum administration that sexist comments are not tolerated.


    Neither of those is true.

    I'm not surrounded by women for reasons people have been trying to explain. There's certainly women in the software development industry. But not as many as in other mathematics/engineering fields. The ones that do exist tend to quit after fewer years than their male counterparts. There's been a lot of talk that they don't feel welcome, or that the community is toxic, or this or that. It's hard to speak of industry-wide circumstances, but it is notable that originally "programmer" was a "woman's job". And now it's not. Something happened.

    Now ask yourself, anyone but Niya. Say you're an intelligent woman VB developer, and you stumble on this thread. How do you feel about the VBForums community? I mean, there's counterpoints being made, and it's hard to say Niya isn't outnumbered. But has anyone stepped up and discussed whether what's going on here is, by nature, offensive and inflammatory to women? I don't think so. Is it hard to imagine yourself as a woman? Let's try again.

    Say you stumble onto another forum, and you find a long, ranty thread discussing how some company or other throws out a resume if it mentions Visual Basic as a proficiency. There's four or five members in dissent, but the OP goes on page after page discussing half-truths and unprovable claims that take more time to disprove than they're worth. Do you feel like posting on this forum, or does it grind your gears a bit? To me, it sort of taints the experience to feel like forum administration is fine with belittling an entire group.

    There is absolutely no value to me in 'discussing' anything further with Niya. I've seen all of his points, including the ones he hasn't made yet, in thousands of 'reasoned debates' in almost every other community I've been in. The most reasonable communities I have seen have handled it by an administrator descending from the heavens and making a firm statement that the entire discussion is off the rails, and that if both sides want to continue their gross discussion of whether women should have rights they should take it somewhere else that tolerates people who think there are "sides" to the issue. Sometimes, some smart aleck ignores it. Then Celestia banishes him to the moon. People get the picture pretty quick.

    That's not going to happen in this thread, not just because VBForums isn't a "feminist stronghold". There are disappointing, but understandable reasons why administration may not want to make that move. But the statement has been made, and barely refuted, that there are some films where women just shouldn't be allowed to be the protagonist. I think that bears a lot further explanation than "Rey is a Mary Sue". It's the kind of statement that makes someone feel uncomfortable at VBForums. And that's serious, in some communities.

    That's the only thing I want to discuss at this point. Why, exactly, do women not belong in certain films? We've discussed Rey to death. I think she's as much a Mary Sue as any of the other umpteen male main characters she accompanied. Why was it only unforgivable to make her a woman? That, I think, is the heart of this argument, and the reason no amount of film analysis is going to sway Niya.

    And I don't think it has an answer that can be considered acceptable.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post

    I'm not surrounded by women for reasons people have been trying to explain.
    No, we're good with it.


    but it is notable that originally "programmer" was a "woman's job". And now it's not. Something happened.
    It isn't "programmer" that was a "woman's job", it was "computer". The term was originally used for people who had the job of computing rather dull amounts over and over. These were often women. From there we went to the mechanical computer, which was a mechanical replacement for the computer position. That's where the name "computer" came from.

    Now, what was really amazing was playing Doom back then. Did you know that it took over 10,000 women to do the graphical calculations alone? You only got a few FPS, and those were on flip cards. It took a dozen women working on the rendering, despite it being decidedly low-res, and at least three had to do the card flipping. Once electronic monitors came along, most of those jobs were lost. There are only a few of them left, and they have to work at fights or wrestling matches.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Not quite so. When the computer came about, programming was considered a great profession for women and even marketed as such. These are the most interesting paragraphs:
    However, says Ensmenger, the presence of these women did not indicate that managers of the ENIAC project had modern attitudes toward women in the workforce. Rather, managers hired women because they expected programming to be a low-skill clerical function, akin to filing, typing, or telephone switching. Assuming that the real “brain work” in electronic computing would be limited to the hardware side, managers reserved these tasks for male engineers.

    The idea that the development of software was less important (and less masculine), than the development of hardware persisted for many years and women continued to work as computer programmers. Employers, says Ensmenger, were in for a surprise when they discovered a truth that we now take for granted: “Programming,” he says with a smile, “is hard.” The women involved in the ENIAC project distinguished themselves by engaging in complex problem-solving tasks and by advising their male colleagues on hardware improvements. For example, Betty Holbertson convinced skeptical engineers to include a “stop instruction” in order to guard against human error.

    As the intellectual challenge of writing efficient code became apparent, employers began to train men as computer programmers. Rather than equating programming with clerical work, employers now compared it to male-stereotyped activities such as chess-playing or mathematics. But even so, hiring managers facing a labor crunch caused by the rapid expansion of computing could not afford to be overly choosy. The quickest way to staff new programming positions was to recruit from both sexes, and employers continued to hire women alongside men.
    *edit*
    It struck me after posting this:

    There's a lot of different things we do in programming, but a lot of our programs are clerical work. Timesheets. Accounting. Updating this or that database. Not all of it's aerospace guidance systems or other exciting work.

    We made up a special derogatory nickname for software developers who focus on those kinds of work that once made it seem like a good job for women (in men's opinion). We call this developer Mort. And there's lots written on how we can get poor old Mort to play with the big boys. So even when we gave the work to men, we quickly established that there is "real programming" and "kids' stuff".

    I often think back to when teachers told me "Once you're out of high school, you can't... <thing I do every day now>." The more adults I meet, the more I realize I completely misunderstood the teachers. No one ever leaves high school. You just get a certificate that proves you stayed there long enough.
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; Feb 1st, 2016 at 12:16 PM.
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    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I'm not surrounded by women for reasons people have been trying to explain
    It's cos you ugly.

    I don't think it has an answer that can be considered acceptable
    I think there are potential reasons but that they don't apply in this case.

    If a role made no sense for a women to play it then it would make no sense to give it to a women. It would be bizarre to cast a women as the lead in The Theory of Everything because Stephen Hawking is a man. If I were making a film about the first male pregnancy it would seem pretty bizarre to cast a women. But that doesn't apply in this case unless you accept that a women can't be a force wielder, after all that's the reason Rey's mysteriously all powerful. Or just can't be capable, which would be equally (or more) ridiculous. I don't see anything in the Star Wars myth that prevents a character like Rey from being a women and I certainly don't see anything in "reality" to draw that conclusion either.

    More importantly, I think if you believed that the only reason a female was chosen for a role was to pander to any extreme pressure group then that would, in itself, be offensive and would therefore justify someone being offended in response.

    However...

    To me that falls fairly firmly into the realms of crackpot conspiracy theory. That's why I referred to Niya's reverse inference. The argument goes something like: Feminist Extremists exist (they do - I just think they're no threat at all to us blokes and largely irrelevant - I certainly don't believe they do much for women as a whole, it takes moderates to effect change). Feminist Extremists would want a film to have a strong female lead. This film has a strong female lead. => It must have been either produced by extremist feminists or in fear of them. That last step is just plain bad logic - it's a reversed inference and I see no other evidence to support it.

    If there was any pressure that caused Rey to be cast as a women while Luke was cast as a man 40 odd years ago it's that society as a whole has moved on and become far more liberal. A female Luke would have seemed weird because women simply didn't have dominant roles in the 70s - in film or in society. Now it's completely normal. Rey is a girl, not because Hollywood fears feminism, but rather because Hollywood embraces the current norm.
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  12. #92
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I disagree. High school sucked. I never left grade school. That's the level at which I work: Playing around in streams, wet, muddy, and destroying expensive equipment (it was a good grade school).

    By the way, it occurred to me that we were both right. Just after I posted that, I remembered that programmers were first women for the reasons you mentioned. They did the wiring. They also made the iron core memory, back in those days.

    One thing I have noticed, is that I often don't know where the really interesting programming problems will come from. I work with fish data. Most fish data is interesting because collecting it is entertaining (I'm going to be judging a cooking contest as part of deploying a program this spring). However, I've also found some fascinating logical problems hidden away in there. You just never know....and as I write this, I totally think that I have written it before, I just can't remember where, and I took it in a slightly different direction. Maybe I've reached the age where I start repeating the same story over and over.

    By the way, have you heard about this guy...I think his name was Sitten...something....he wrote a bunch of stuff on a programming forum back in the day. Now let's see....how does the rest of that story go....
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Well I did mean to point out that by defaming Mort we sort of ignore that "boring" clerical work can have as much ridiculous nuance as aerospace guidance systems. Part of what I've learned in my career is if something's easy, no one gets paid to do it. It gets lumped onto the responsibilities of someone else doing things worth getting paid for. You mentioned fish data, and I'm immediately asking myself questions like, "Dang, what the heck data /is/ there to collect about fish? If I had to collect it, I'd be terrible until I'd asked weeks of questions!"

    I also said long ago, and still uphold, there's a big difference between "overpowered" and "Mary Sue" and that Rey hasn't had her chance to pass the Mary Sue test yet. Luke didn't get his until way past the middle of Empire Strikes Back. That tells me Rey has a little bit of time. What's this distinction?

    When Mary Sue screws up, she mopes about it forever. No one can cheer her up, and the consequences of her failure are overshadowed by how gosh darn sorry everyone is for her since it tore her up so much. Then, it's discovered that for some reason, it wasn't Mary Sue's fault. Sometimes it's that anyone would've failed in that scenario, other times it's that someone else (usually someone that opposed Mary Sue) sabotaged her efforts. The end result is Mary Sue immediately cheers up, having proved that she is indeed flawless in every way. Orson Scott Card provided our prior art in Ender's Game. Sometimes Mary Sue's fun, because she represents self-projection and we need to see ourselves succeed.

    When the character is simply powerful, what happens is she realizes the consequences of her actions and resolves to never make the same mistake again. Then, at some point, we get a demonstration that she's grown. Blame falls squarely on her, she takes responsibility for making amends, and she demonstrates that she as a person has changed in a way that will not bring about those circumstances again. This is what a good character should do, and why we frown at Mary Sue in terms of critical analysis.

    As I mentioned, Luke doesn't really get a chance to pass his Mary Sue test in A New Hope. He doesn't really make any mistakes with impact. That's very different from making a mistake that he's later absolved from. In this setting, he's just a hero with some supernatural powers that we are led to believe can influence any aspect of his physical and mental abiliites, and he exercises them to become a hero. It's in Empire Strikes Back, where his desire for revenge nearly causes him to sacrifice himself to Darth Vader, that he makes his mistake. It's hard to analyze the consequences of this action. The confrontation could be said to stir feelings in Vader that ultimately lead to the end of the Empire. But Luke sort of did lose his hand, and at the climax of Return of the Jedi we see him remember this crucial moment in his history as he teeters on the brink of becoming "Anakin Skywalker II: Now with More Limbs". And then he refuses to walk the same path his father did. We see that Luke has grown. It takes 3 films.

    Rey's only had one film, and she's a very strong Luke analog in this one. She has supernatural powers that we're to believe influence any aspect of her behavior, and she exercises them a good bit more than Luke did. That doesn't make her a Mary Sue. That makes her powerful. No one ever said Luke was or would be the most powerful Jedi, outside of a notion like "He's the only Jedi." and "He's from a powerful Jedi family that has a long and storied one-generation history that reaches decades into the past of the thousand-plus-year Jedi Order." We don't even know who Rey's parents are, outside of fan theories that immediately sprung up and make decent sense. She hasn't made her mistake yet. We can't tell if she's a Mary Sue.

    I predict the next film is going to stick to the Empire Strikes Back formula:

    Finn and crew are going to get called away and Rey is going to train under a Jedi master in seclusion. Kylo Ren is going to be told to deal with Rey before she becomes a threat, and some vague secret about her past will be alluded to. Ren's going to spring a trap for Finn and company, which will probably include our favorite star Poe Whats-his-name, who will have asserted himself as filling the shoes of a character that doesn't exist anymore because it's one of the key spoilery moments in TFA. Finn's going to meet his father, thanks some random toymaker for spoiling that plot twist! Then, in a shocking twist, that moment will be the sprung trap and it's the dungeon for everyone. Rey will see it, in a vision, and demand that she be let go to go save them. Luke's going to point out this looks really familiar, and explain what happened when he did the same thing in the same scenario. Kids being what they are, she's going to sneak off without his permission. I expect a catchprase out of Luke at this point. Anyway, she'll race off and have a climactic confrontation with Kylo Ren coinciding with a simultaneous escape by the others. She's going to learn something about her lineage that will really hurt her feelings and make a lot of fans angry. Then she's probably going to lose a limb or so. Somehow it's all going to come back together, I'm pretty sure Finn's going to be captured by the First Order and he'll be the 'cost' for Rey's mistake. Then we get to wait two whole years to see what she does in response.

    Four years. That's how long it's going to take to find out if Rey's worth a snot as a character. If they try really hard, it'll take two years. But I bet we have to see two more films to know. And it has nothing to do with her biology.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    You mentioned fish data, and I'm immediately asking myself questions like, "Dang, what the heck data /is/ there to collect about fish? If I had to collect it, I'd be terrible until I'd asked weeks of questions!"
    It's just a matter of scale.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It's just a matter of scale.
    Now you are just trolling.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Perhaps, but I thought my post had allure.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Perhaps, but I thought my post had allure.
    Nobody's biting !!! ... oops
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  18. #98
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Yeah, but I thought I might as well cast that one out there anyways.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I'm starting to flounder.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  20. #100
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    No, no, no. We've gone over fish species puns. Now we're on to puns about fishing beyond a shadow of a trout.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    There's no flies on you, you've got all the best lines.
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  22. #102
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Ouch!!! That one left me reeling!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I thought surely we have tackled all the available fishing puns now, i trawled the other posts but then i noticed we had let a few fly under the radar!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Last I looked fish finders used sonar.

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I would say that would be a sound assumption.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Those BLR guys are funny. This one even has a few clips from Awakens in it.

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I just looked at this thread. It's typical of what you get on the forum lately!

    Starts off working - gets all my camp vs. your camp - fists are out - fires are being set.

    Then the puns start...

    Mine as just well spend all my time in the Post Race!

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post

    Mine as just well spend all my time in the Post Race!
    Might want to put down the bottle, first.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Starts off working - gets all my camp vs. your camp - fists are out - fires are being set.
    More like camp vs 1.
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  30. #110
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I watched it again last night, and I'm more convinced that there's a long flashback in our future.

    Kylo Ren seems to know who Rey is just at the mention that "a girl" helped Finn get off of Jakku. I remember noticing at some point Han's opinion of Rey seemed to shift dramatically, as if he connected some dots that laid dormant. (I was a little distracted here, this is when my burger arrived.) The first half of the film had a lot more character development than I remembered, and somehow I feel like there was more to Rey's flashback visions the first time I watched them. Something my wife recognized more readily than me is Leia/Rey seemed to know each other really well in that mournful hug scene for two people who'd never seen each other before.

    Finn's still an enigma, too. Everything we know about Stormtroopers suggests they can't have a conscience. But here he is, having a crisis on his first mission. Considering the inspirations from which the First Order drew, it's curious they don't have a brutal zero-tolerance process for dealing with this. Just a voluntary "go to reprogramming without an escort, we trust you". How nice. It makes one think it's so rare, they didn't really know how to handle it and didn't want to look like that's the case.

    And what's the deal with Hux? Is he of equal rank to Kylo Ren? Why? He sure seems to revel in pointing out when Ren looks stupid. He's a character that could be unnamed and it wouldn't take much away from the film. Grand Moff Tarkin he ain't.

    But I'm liking KR more than I did the first time around. He's much better at his archetype than Anakin was in 1,2,3. I get the sense he felt abandoned by Han/Leia, and that abandonment led him to see more of a father in Snoke than Luke, who was essentially Han/Leia to KR. Everyone whines that he's a wannabe Darth Vader, but that's the point. The viewer's supposed to know this brat's got no chance of being Vader, and part of that is because the viewer's supposed to understand that Vader wasn't evil, but lost. Just like KR. I'm personally starting to think KR won't be redeemed, in the end, and that he won't really ascend to Vader's presence. That's already been accomplished by letting him take off his mask and showing his struggles, something we didn't get out of Vader until the very end of RotJ.

    I still laughed. I still had a good time. I particularly liked the scant few space dogfight scenes, and I kind of hope for more of them. I like the maneuvers, and I like seeing the ships get torn apart by lasers. In the grand scheme of things, Rey doesn't do all that much by herself. She flies a ship once. She uses some Force powers. That's roughly as believable to me as Finn being able to shoot accurately as a Stormtrooper. Maybe it's the stupid helmets? I don't really care.

    I'm most concerned with "Who is Rey?" and "Who is Finn?". In this film, they're the plucky heroes. I hope the next films show us their flaws, let those flaws cause them serious trouble, and then we see them grow past those flaws.
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  31. #111
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    She uses some Force powers.
    Who taught her ?

    Luke Skywalker got taught by two legendary Jedi warriors only to have his hand cut off the 1st time he faced Vader. Mary S...errr I mean Rey on the other hand was hypnotizing stormtroopers not even a couple days after she only had only been told that the Force existed. To add even more insult, she goes on to defeat Kylo Ren, a man presumably training in use of the Force for years.....Are you kidding me ? Star Wars The Force Awakens is garbage. Lucas should be ashamed that he sold the franchise to these people only for them to butcher it.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Who taught you to walk? Tell me the story. You had to learn to coordinate many systems of your body to accomplish a task you'd only seen practiced by other members of the species. So surely you had a physical therapist who walked you through it and explained it to you, right? Probably not.

    I learned to read when I was 3. I hadn't been to any school yet. It turns out that kind of pattern recognition's just something my brain innately picked up. I'm sure a few dozen episodes of Sesame Street didn't hurt. But Mom had to start hiding her magazines because I started asking her exactly why she wanted to make her man scream within months. I was reading novels and bored out of my mind when school was still tossing phonics lessons at me.

    There are a lot of other very complex skills that human children pick up at very early ages. Many classical composers were adept with instruments before they lost their baby teeth. I'm sure history has other examples.

    So why is it so hard to believe that in our fantasy land with wizards, there is a late-teen prodigy force user?
    Last edited by Sitten Spynne; Feb 23rd, 2016 at 01:19 PM.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  33. #113
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Who taught her ?
    I felt they were trying to pass her off as a real natural - like having perfect pitch.

    Luke was all about his doubts - had to be convinced that he could control it.

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I think going around and around about it's counterproductive. I've been thinking about what "debate" really means lately, and realized that in a debate, no one expects either side to change their mind. Instead, there's a rigid cycle of speech, rebuttal, response, and then everyone goes home. (In Lincoln-Douglass, at least.) I like that, and I think it's OK to incorporate the notion that at some point, you've said all you want to say about something and sort of want to move on to another topic.

    I think yes, it's apt to say they want to portray her as a natural. That portrayal doesn't necessarily bother me, and I think I've laid out why I feel that way. Mostly: we're still in the first quadrant of the Hero's Journey, I want to see what happens after she falls. Luke hadn't had a chance to fall yet at this point, either.

    You don't like that view something fierce, and I disagree with what I've read. You could talk me into conceding that Luke's a better character than Rey, but my feelings are nowhere near as strong as calling the movie 'garbage' or that she's worthless as a character.
    This answer is wrong. You should be using TableAdapter and Dictionaries instead.

  35. #115
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Who is your post directed at?

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  36. #116
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    The first Star Wars wasn't the first of a series when it was filmed. It was a one-off with the option of a second act. They certainly laid the groudwork for a sequel right off by doing things like leaving Vader alive (though lost in space, which really should be a death sentence), leaving the Emperor out of it entirely, and so forth, but the first movie was a complete arc on its own, in case there was no sequel. With the new one, EVERYBODY knows there will be not just one sequel, but at least two. Therefore, it doesn't have to be a complete story.

    I still haven't seen it, though, and might not until after the next one comes out, or maybe all three. Then I can see them all in a series.
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  37. #117
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    though lost in space, which really should be a death sentence
    Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! Wait, wrong movie.

    Who is your post directed at?
    Niya, I suspect. Putting aside debates about the nature of feminism they both seem diametrically opposed on the quality of the film too and Sitten's probably right that they're never going to see eye to eye on either topic.

    Personally I'm somewhere in the middle. I enjoyed it s a good space romp but I didn't think it was anywhere near as interesting as the first three or even the first one. I don't love or hate Rey, I just found her dull. Same with all the other new characters, they just weren't interesting. (Mind you, I found Luke to be an unremittingly dull character all the way through the originals which were saved as films by all the other characters)

    I guess Kylo Renn is a bit more interesting but only because he's such a contemptible little worm. I get the argument that that was the point but my counter argument would be that, in that case, he was a piss-poor choice for the chief bad guy of a movie. I just don't want to watch a film about a winey brat. I'd much rather see some great dark menacing hulk, a martial arts ninja with a face like a devil or a big fat slug with a penchant for dancing slave girls.

    But the effects were awesome, the chase scenes were perfectly choreographed and the background aliens were cool as all heck.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Feb 24th, 2016 at 03:54 AM.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Next time they should write a totally new script, not just rewrite the Ep4.
    Last edited by si_the_geek; May 12th, 2016 at 05:48 PM. Reason: removed unnecessary link

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Well, it's more likely they'll rewrite Ep5 for the next one
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