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Thread: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Princess Leia is not just the most famous, she's also the ONLY female character in the first three episodes with the exception of the blue gal that got fed to the beast in Return of the Jedi.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I think someone needs to put their tin foil hat back on.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    It's a bit of a leap from "the main character is too powerful" to "this is feminist propaganada".

    There's plenty of discussion and debate as to whether Rey is too powerful for the film, and that discussion can completely abstract gender if we feel so inclined. I don't know where I sit. In the movie canon, we've only seen 2 Jedi trained, and one of them went from 8 to something like 17 without any insight as to his progress, so he's a bad model. I'm sure in the EU there's more treatment, but keep in mind Disney wiped most of the EU out of canon so they're operating in what comics fans will note is an alternate universe. All in all I find the discussion boring and akin to "looking for something to get mad about". I'd rather talk about why code that uses default instances is hard to maintain than how quickly I think it's possible for wizards to learn magic spells.

    But I think it's OK for a woman to be on-screen and demonstrating the same ridiculous prowess that male action heroes exhibit. There's maybe some worthy discussion about whether Star Wars is the appropriate venue for that kind of hero. It's certainly got more action in its pedigree than Star Trek, but now it seems action films are all we get. That's something worth lamenting. It has little to do with whether there's a woman onscreen or not, and when you make "...and she did it while being a woman" the issue it shows a really ugly side of yourself you should try to buff out.

    But if the kind of "feminist propaganda" you dislike is the kind where "women do the kinds of things we see men do", then I think you're going to be increasingly frustrated as time goes on and more of the world leaves you behind.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    she's also the ONLY female character in the first three episodes
    Nah, all the storm troopers were gals. You could tell by the shimmy.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Give me Top Cruise saving the world any day!
    Ummm, the schedule's a bit booked for the next decade. How long can you wait?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    I'm sure in the EU there's more treatment, but keep in mind Disney wiped most of the EU out of canon so they're operating in what comics fans will note is an alternate universe.
    So....are you saying that if Britain votes to leave the EU they will suddenly be operating in an alternate universe? I think that would influence the vote a bit, though I'm not sure in which direction. Still, it's bad enough that the Brits are bouncing off pillars in their train stations, now they have a chance to get to an alternate universe. It's a slippery slope, I tell you.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I can't tell how much sarcasm's there. In this case, the "EU" is the "Extended Universe", a term for the dizzying array of novels and other materials endorsed in some way by Lucas and forming a much larger canon than the films. One of Disney's first moves was to say "None of that happened, except for this specific list."

    Also there were a few other female characters in the original trilogy:
    • Mon Mothma was real high ranking in the Rebel Alliance, I can't remember if she ran the whole show or not. She was present on Yavin in ANH and had a few lines.
    • The Special Edition of Return of the Jedi added a female alien singer to the band in Jabba's palace and focused on more of the Twi'lek slave girls.
    • There's also a six-breasted woman in Jabba's palace that has her own story in the novel "Tales from Jabba's Palace". I forget exactly how it went but I seem to remember she was a badass.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    It's a bit of a leap from "the main character is too powerful" to "this is feminist propaganada".....

    But I think it's OK for a woman to be on-screen and demonstrating the same ridiculous prowess that male action heroes exhibit. There's maybe some worthy discussion about whether Star Wars is the appropriate venue for that kind of hero. It's certainly got more action in its pedigree than Star Trek, but now it seems action films are all we get. That's something worth lamenting. It has little to do with whether there's a woman onscreen or not, and when you make "...and she did it while being a woman" the issue it shows a really ugly side of yourself you should try to buff out.

    But if the kind of "feminist propaganda" you dislike is the kind where "women do the kinds of things we see men do", then I think you're going to be increasingly frustrated as time goes on and more of the world leaves you behind.
    Its make believe, they can do whatever they want. Their lack of consistency is simply bad storytelling which can be forgiven. Even the best movies have gaping plot holes, and other inconsistencies. In most cases, its simply that some writers are more talented than others. However, in this case, they butchered what would have otherwise been a fine story, with their over eagerness to cater to feminist dogma. They would have gotten away with just making her "far too powerful", in which case, it would have simply been poor writing and that would be that. But when they decided to deliberately make the male lead an incompetent fool that depends on her to tell him how to pee properly, that's where it all became clear. That attribute is blatantly and undeniably feminist. At this point, there's no mistake that this movie is at its heart, a propaganda film that panders to the worst aspects of feminist ideology.

    When I watch a movie like this, I expect some kind of entertainment, not to be indoctrinated. This type of propaganda is an insult to the intelligence of any human being with a lick of sense. I mean I tried to enjoy it, but every minute more I watched this movie, I saw the plot being bent more and more to facilitate their feminist nonsense and the plot eventually stopped making sense all together which is quite an accomplishment for a movie about laser swords and telepathic monks.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    So....are you saying that if Britain votes to leave the EU they will suddenly be operating in an alternate universe? I think that would influence the vote a bit, though I'm not sure in which direction.
    To Leave god damn it, even i want to leave now if an alternate universe is the out option!!!

    Don't let them hire you for there campaigns Shaggy no matter how much money they throw at you... unless your serious about the Alternate Universe option!!!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Nah, all the storm troopers were gals. You could tell by the shimmy.
    Which reminds me: what's with the silver stormtrooper?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    ...

    When I watch a movie like this, I expect some kind of entertainment, not to be indoctrinated. This type of propaganda is an insult to the intelligence of any human being with a lick of sense. I mean I tried to enjoy it, but every minute more I watched this movie, I saw the plot being bent more and more to facilitate their feminist nonsense and the plot eventually stopped making sense all together which is quite an accomplishment for a movie about laser swords and telepathic monks.
    Seriously, this is a completely different movie. Are you sure you were in the correct theater?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    When I watch a movie like this, I expect some kind of entertainment, not to be indoctrinated.
    I don't think there is any Danger of that!!

    Well what you see as Feminist Propaganda a i just saw as bad script writing.

    To draw a parallel i watched Oblivion (yes i am returning to my earlier Tom Cruise theme) the other day (it was on TV and i had nothing else to do) and boy that film had more holes in its plot lines than a sieve.

    In the Movie the main premise is that there was a war between humans and some aliens, which the humans won, and now Tom Cruise and a red headed women are essentially a drone maintenance crew, some of the few humans left on earth, as the Moon and much of the Earth has been destroyed or been irradiated.

    The drones defend some big machines that are pulling up water and other resources for the rest of humanity's journey to colonise Titan.

    We are told that both Cruise and the redhead have had there memory wiped for the mission (which is hardly a mission as it just appears to be repairing some drones) they are currently undertaking which they do not question at all.

    But my favourite thing in the Movie is the real humans spend quite a bit of effort in trying to convince Cruise that he is on the wrong side and is being tricked, eventually he believes them when he sees the drones killing some humans ..... but then sometime later they reveal that when the war started, millions of clones of Tom Cruise were what the aliens used for soldiers in the war in the first place !!!!

    So how does that work then!! How could he not know he was on the wrong side if he and cloned versions of himself where at war and killing humans??

    Thats just the biggest hole, there are tons of them in this movie which i attributed to bad writing and Not Tom Cruse-ism

    Needless to say good old Tom saves the day in the end, and it does make me wonder if Scientology has anything to do with his more recent foray into Sci-fi films in which essentially Tom Cruise saves the Earth (and or his family).
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    Which reminds me: what's with the silver stormtrooper?
    As long as the weapons are laser weapons, wouldn't you want reflective armor?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    I can't tell how much sarcasm's there. In this case, the "EU" is the "Extended Universe", a term for the dizzying array of novels and other materials endorsed in some way by Lucas and forming a much larger canon than the films. One of Disney's first moves was to say "None of that happened, except for this specific list."

    Also there were a few other female characters in the original trilogy:
    • Mon Mothma was real high ranking in the Rebel Alliance, I can't remember if she ran the whole show or not. She was present on Yavin in ANH and had a few lines.
    • The Special Edition of Return of the Jedi added a female alien singer to the band in Jabba's palace and focused on more of the Twi'lek slave girls.
    • There's also a six-breasted woman in Jabba's palace that has her own story in the novel "Tales from Jabba's Palace". I forget exactly how it went but I seem to remember she was a badass.
    How much is sarcasm? Ummm, let me give you a hint: It's Chit-Chat. I'm MOSTLY looking for puns, but sarcasm is good, too.

    By the way, I note that two of your three bullet points were not in the original three movies. You also left out one with a speaking part: Luke's aunt.

    Still, those were some frustrated rebels!!! They'd probably go for hairy wookie-nookie.

    Also: Niya's gone off the deep end.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    As long as the weapons are laser weapons, wouldn't you want reflective armor?
    ooohhh, good point! But what about the force thing holding a blaster bolt? Is it really a glowing bolt?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    As long as the weapons are laser weapons, wouldn't you want reflective armor?
    ooohhh, good point! But what about the force thing holding a blaster bolt? Is it really a glowing bolt?

    Is this why laser weapons are actually pretty useless? just make everything shiny!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    ...

    By the way, I note that two of your three bullet points were not in the original three movies. You also left out one with a speaking part: Luke's aunt.

    ...
    Luke's Aunt: Want some milk?

    Director: OK, thank you, uh, 'Luke's Aunt'. We won't be needing you anymore. Props! Bring in the charred bodies!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Wasn't there another line when she calls up to Luke from down in some kind of pit about telling Uncle Owen to get something?
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    what's with the silver stormtrooper
    I didn't spot the silver storm trooper but I assume he's a disco diva drag act. So not technically a gal but still FABULOUS, darlink.

    Niya, I've got to say, I think you're reading too much into it. I do know what you mean that men are increasingly portrayed as buffoonish foils to women, far more so in advertising than in films BTW, but I don't see it as any kind of agenda. It's just lazy writing. The truth is that us fellas still hold most of the cards in this world and switching the roles has been a dramatic device since Chaucer. It's why Jerry outwits Tom, it's why an x-wing can blow up a death star and it's why men in adverts are reduced to gazing in awestruck bewilderment as their wife breaks out a fancy new steam cleaner to beat them in a race to clean the most windows.

    There definitely are some women with an agenda to push, but there are just as many men pushing back the other way. Most of us, on both side of the gender divide, just don't care that much but don't make enough noise for out indifference to be noticed. Our gender agenda is gentler.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I didn't spot the silver storm trooper but I assume he's a disco diva drag act. So not technically a gal but still FABULOUS, darlink.
    The silver storm trooper was played by Gwendoline Christie who's famous for playing Brienne of Tarth on Game of Thrones.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Niya, I've got to say, I think you're reading too much into it. I do know what you mean that men are increasingly portrayed as buffoonish foils to women, far more so in advertising than in films BTW
    Most of these ads have a comedic tone to it so its all in good fun. By that reasoning, if Star Wars was marketed mainly as a comedic, I wouldn't have perceived it as propoganda. It would just be the writers trying to be funny. While Star Wars does have a comedic tone to it, its mainly a space drama. Its meant to make some kind of sense in between its funny moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    ...but I don't see it as any kind of agenda. It's just lazy writing.
    Yes it is bad writing, but not for lack of talent but because the writers wanted remind us every 10 minutes that their female lead was a super woman. This movie has far too many feminist tells for it to be anything but feminist propaganda. Every movie since Xena Warrior Princess was aired has been touched by feminism. This difference with this new Star Wars is that they really over did it and as a result, spoiled the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    The truth is that us fellas still hold most of the cards in this world
    You mistake me. I don't really care one way or another about those issues. I simply wish they would stop using movies that have nothing to do with these issues as a platform to win converts. Why don't they make a movie about this or use other platforms like Documentaries and such to get their message out. Why do they have to butcher a good franchise like Star Wars for something I care little about.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    and switching the roles has been a dramatic device since Chaucer. It's why Jerry outwits Tom, it's why an x-wing can blow up a death star and it's why men in adverts are reduced to gazing in awestruck bewilderment as their wife breaks out a fancy new steam cleaner to beat them in a race to clean the most windows.
    Again, comedy doesn't really qualify. It's meant not to be taken seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    There definitely are some women with an agenda to push, but there are just as many men pushing back the other way. Most of us, on both side of the gender divide, just don't care that much but don't make enough noise for out indifference to be noticed. Our gender agenda is gentler.
    Well they can make their own movies to promote their respective ideologies and stop hijacking other films for this.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    It's not a damn comedic tone for Doritos to imply the only reason a man will spend time with his daughter is if she tempts him with chips. Here's what it is:

    "Sexism is funny if men write it and men laugh at it. It's feminist propaganda if a woman writes it."

    It's not funny for me to say, "How do you drown a man? Glue a can of Mountain Dew to the bottom of a swimming pool." That's just a "dumb blonde" joke repackaged to play towards stereotypes of masculinity that only exist because of sexism against women. It hurts men, and it's used to "justify" the similarly damaging stereotypes used against women.

    For example.

    "Men don't talk about feelings" is the reason, in general, more men have untreated depression (that leads to more suicides) than women. Why do we say that? Because "women are the emotional ones, men are tough". There's nothing tough about being sick and not going to the doctor. This is why feminism is important: sexism against women promotes views of masculinity that are killing men.

    The sooner we can equate "being a man" and "being an adult" the better off we are. "Being a man" should involve "keeping promises, taking responsibility for actions, and striving to minimize the people one hurts." It shouldn't involve how many beers one can drink, how many women one can bed, or how willing one is to kill another man for implying one isn't a man. That's playground behavior for children, and adults don't have time to waste on really old children.

    But if we want to promote "only men can be overpowered action heroes", then we subtly support all of the constructs that keep that childlike mentality around. Star Wars may be feminist propaganda, but you are sexist propaganda. And I like the world where women are my friends better than the one where I put them "in their place".
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    And I like the world where women are my friends better than the one where I put them "in their place".
    Yeah! 'Cause there's only so much space in front of my kitchen sink!


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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yeah! 'Cause there's only so much space in front of my kitchen sink!


    Sorry, I just couldn't resist it.
    Don't hide the truth, bro!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    But if we want to promote "only men can be overpowered action heroes"....
    There are other franchises like the Expendables where this would be acceptable. Despite being a space fantasy, Star Wars is quite a different beast. And despite being quite over the top with their portrayal of its universe, Star Wars has traditionally maintained a somewhat sensible plot throughout all of its incarnations, right up until this garbage called "The Force Awakens".

    For the record, if it had the exact same plot but with a male lead, I'd still find it to be rubbish. Only difference, instead calling it feminist propaganda, I'd have called it millennial propaganda or something, the idea being that they would obviously have been catering to this lazy generation that wants everything now now now and without paying any kind of price for it. That's exactly what they would have been portraying: "This guy is awesome without even trying". Nothing wrong with that but when I'm in the mood for completely mindless entertainment, I'll watch a Sylvester Stallone or a Dennis Rodman movie.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I can't read past "where this would be acceptable". You don't get to decide where women belong.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    I can't read past "where this would be acceptable". You don't get to decide where women belong.
    Who said anything about deciding where women belonged ? Quote where I said that please. If you're gonna engage in debate(or an argument ) with me at least read what I said and stop making stuff up.

    In no post did I say that women don't belong where ever...not even sure where you say I say they didn't belong.......Do any of you even understand what I was saying in any post I made ? You totally lost me now
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 29th, 2016 at 08:46 AM.
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  27. #67
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    For the record, if it had the exact same plot but with a male lead, I'd still find it to be rubbish. Only difference, instead calling it feminist propaganda, I'd have called it millennial propaganda or something, the idea being that they would obviously have been catering to this lazy generation that wants everything now now now and without paying any kind of price for it.
    So really you have the exact same problem with the Movie as me, but .... you just threw in the Feminist propaganda argument as well because, well just because your Niya

    Do any of you even understand what I was saying in any post I made ?
    Well what you seem to be saying to me is, i don't mind that Feminist stuff if it's in an Advert or Comedy, just don't mess with Star Wars OK!!!!!
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Your posts are dripping with implication, forgive me for reading "There are other franchises like the Expendables where this would be acceptable." as anything but, "I want feminism's messages to be limited to films that I decide are appropriate."

    Feminist messages belong in any media where the artists responsible feel they belong. If they are wrong messages, and society disapproves, there will be discussion to that extent. Society isn't deciding what it believes in when messages are suppressed: that is the suppressors deciding what society will believe in.

    To some extent, if we continue this 'discussion', the thread will become this, with either of us as either party. I'd rather talk about Star Wars. I think you've made it clear what bugged you, and that the responses weren't what you expected might be something you should reflect on. I re-assert what was my real point:

    If Rey was a problem in the film, it has nothing to do with her status as a man or woman. I think there's a ton of problems with each character's presentation except for maybe Han and Leia. To focus on the woman in that group is a little fishy, and to imply that "she's only powerful because they want to elevate women" is spot-on but demands an answer to, "But why would it be 'good cinema' instead of 'also bad' to elevate a man like that instead?" I think you've already provided your answer, and reinforced it when people raised eyebrows. I also think you're going to be very disappointed by mainstream media in the coming years.

    (And, oddly enough, today's Wondermark has a Star Wars theme.)
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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    So really you have the exact same problem with the Movie as me, but .... you just threw in the Feminist propaganda argument
    Feminism had a part to play in why it's plot was bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    as well because, well just because your Niya
    Missed me yet ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitten Spynne View Post
    Your posts are dripping with implication, forgive me for reading "There are other franchises like the Expendables where this would be acceptable." as anything but, "I want feminism's messages to be limited to films that I decide are appropriate."

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Well what you seem to be saying to me is, i don't mind that Feminist stuff if it's in an Advert or Comedy, just don't mess with Star Wars OK!!!!!
    Not even close to what I was saying.

    I'm saying the movie was garbage because it's plot is not true to the Star Wars franchise, i.e the plot was terrible. The plot was terrible because their lead character made no sense at all. Their lead character made no sense because she was very one dimensional, boring and predictable. The lead character was one dimensional, boring and predictable because the writers wanted to lick the boots of feminism by giving feminists exactly what they wanted, a perfect woman that can do no wrong, cannot fail and is good at everything she does, even things she has never done before.

    I'm also saying that action flicks like The Expendables and such are exactly the types of movies where one dimensional, and otherwise boring and predictable characters belong because people watch those movies just to see stuff explode. Star Wars for all its weirdness has always had some kind of interesting character development. Half the reason Star Wars is so popular is because of its very rich and intriguing lore. Star Wars is not a mindless beat-up-the-bad-guys kind of franchise. This is what they turned it into with this latest installment, a side effect of trying to appease feminists.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 29th, 2016 at 11:07 AM.
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  30. #70
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    The Expendables was loaded with inside jokes about the other movies made by the stars. I always thought the point of those movies was an Easter egg hunt.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Niya, I was with you right up until this:-
    ...because the writers wanted to lick the boots of feminism ...
    She was indeed one dimensional boring and predictable but I don't think the motivation for that was to appease feminists. I doubt feminism even entered Disney's thinking. Of course, we can't know either way but I can cite plenty of examples from Disney's canon of work where the main characters were over simplified to support big effects but I struggle to cite many where they appeared to be supporting feminism (quite the opposite if you view the whole canon but most of the films were made in different times so that wouldn't really be a fair comparison).
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Yeah, you got the wrong word. Boots are something you wear on your feet.
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  33. #73
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Niya, I was with you right up until this:-
    I doubt feminism even entered Disney's thinking. Of course, we can't know either way but I can cite plenty of examples from Disney's canon of work where the main characters were over simplified to support big effects but I struggle to cite many where they appeared to be supporting feminism (quite the opposite if you view the whole canon but most of the films were made in different times so that wouldn't really be a fair comparison).
    You and others would probably miss the connection because you're not familiar with what feminism is about. With regards to the latest Star Wars, Anita Sarkeesian comes to mind.

    Anita Sarkeesian is a crackpot Youtube personality that makes videos complaining about all manner of inane nonsense while making sweeping and far-fetched claims about how these "things" are used by men to oppress women. She has a particular taste for complaining about how men use video games to oppress women. Anita Sarkeesian is not the only one like her, she's just the most well known but there are about a dozen or so clones of her all over popular culture. The thing about her and her clones is how much mainstream support they have, so much so that any off hand comment from anyone of these lunatics about anything that even slightly offends them could result in some poor dude losing his job. Hollywood bigshots are not immune to it. One bad word from any of them them and even J.J. Abrams could become a pariah overnight. The whole GamerGate controversy is a good example of just how much power these crackpot feminists wield in mainstream culture.

    This latest Star Wars seems EXACTLY tailored to satisfy people like Anita Sarkeesian. The connection is so clear to me that its practically a fact in my mind and not conjecture. If Anita Sarkeesian or her ilk made a bullet point list of things a movie had to have to satisfy their lunacy, trust me, the new Star Wars checked every one.

    Its entirely plausible that Star Wars was made this way to avoid incurring the wrath of feminists like Anita Sarkeesian. It's pretty common knowledge that their attacks are relentless and their witch hunts have broken many a man for the most trivial of perceived offenses.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 29th, 2016 at 08:07 PM.
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  34. #74
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    I've deleted the last couple of posts in this thread because it was descending into name calling and baiting.

    If you have a point of view which is controversial you may express it as long as you do so in a manner which is courteous. If you want to challenge that point of view you may do so as long as it is in a manner which is equally courteous. There is no need to descend to descend to name calling, baiting or trolling of any kind.

    Keep it civil.
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  35. #75
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    You and others would probably miss the connection because you're not familiar with what feminism is about
    Nope, I'm quite familiar with it, thanks.

    I'm also quite familiar with the work of Anita Sarkeesian and the response that came from it. For the record I think most of what she says is broadly true although I think she does tend to overstate the case somewhat - or at least, her followers do. Most of what she writes about is the unconscious sexism that's prevalent in the media and any fool looking at out film and games industries, in particular, can see that that sexism does exist and is very real. Where I differ from her and her ilk is that they tend to portray that sexism as a conscious decision, which I don't believe it to be, and use that to demonise men, often all men.

    However, I look at radical feminism and see it as largely a shrill voices in the wilderness along with a very few more logical voices that are actually worth listening to. I also see that it is doing a very bad job of actually effecting any change. The feminist cause really hasn't advanced the cause of women in any significant way since the early nineties. Us fellas are still more likely to find employment, more likely to sit on a company board and more likely to achieve political success. Women are still more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault and more likely to be the victim of domestic violence. Despite a sixty year old feminist movement we've still got it good.

    On the other hand, I look at the response that Sarkeesian and like of Quinn and Wu received and find it to be extremely dangerous. Threats of rape and murder aimed at both the individuals and, more pointedly, their families, are not something which I believe can be ignored. And I don't buy into the argument that it's OK because it's on line and anonymous - particularly when the address and personal details of the individuals were made publicly available. It is every bit as credible a threat as one that is made in person.

    And, given the sheer volume of the response I believe that the threat was not the only thing to be concerned with. I think that did represent harassment and that is criminal in its own right. I don't think arguments like "they should learn to switch off and not take it seriously" carry any water because, even if the individual stops listening, they know that everyone else is continuing to do so. It's the justification that every bully through the ages has used and it has never held validity.

    Neither do I buy the free speech card. I'm a firm believer in free speech. We should all have the right to criticise and challenge each other. We should all have the right mock and even insult each other. However, if the only justification a person can offer for insulting someone is the right of free speech then it becomes an empty concept. Free Speech only has value if it is exercised to further a higher cause.

    Anyway, that's my position on the whole feminism thing. As it applies to your position in this debate I believe you've reversed an inference. You've essentially said Daisy is a cow so all cows are Daisy. Feminism calls for strong female characters therefore any strong female character must be an example of feminism. I'm afraid that just doesn't hold water. At best you've spotted several such inferences which would indicate a correlation but to infer a causation from it is bad programming
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  36. #76
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm also quite familiar with the work of Anita Sarkeesian and the response that came from it. For the record I think most of what she says is broadly true
    Anita Sarkessian lost all credibility with me from the very first video I ever saw of her. Up until then, I believed as you and Sitten Spyne did, that feminists were just people fighting for a better world. The video was a piece about sexism in video games. I sat and watched the whole thing. I was in awe at how someone could be so bold with their lies. The whole thing was one huge propaganda piece. You see I'm something of a gamer. I've played many many video games over the course of my life and I could say with certainty that everything she said in her video was patently false.

    She prattled on about how developers only used the damsel in distress trope in video games and how it hurts women. Firstly, why make a big deal over something so petty and its not even true to boot.

    She used the Princess from the Mario games as an example but I heard nothing about Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, other games from that era which portrayed women as tough and very capable warriors. And those aren't the only ones. We have Aida from Unreal 2 who's a tough capable soldier who's backstory was that she was a strategic genius who was key in developing a strategy that saved humans from alien conquest. We have Sarah Kerrigan and Nova from the Starcraft franchise, highly elite and deadly soldiers. Sarah Kerrigan in particular conquered an entire sector in space by defeating two very powerful empires single handedly. I could go on and on. In fact, almost every game I've ever played had the strong female trope embedded somewhere.

    According to her, the damsel in distress trope is the default which is absolutely not true. In fact, its more common in movies. Video games have had the strong woman thing for quite a long time now. I've played many popular and not so popular video games so I can testify to that. Anita Sarkessian doesn't know what she is talking about. No one should be taking that woman seriously. She's out for blood and the truth be damned.

    That video was what actually made me decide to dig into feminism and what I found was quite ugly. Up until then I knew relatively nothing about feminism. Anita Sarekessian and her ilk are very unhealthy for society because they have no problem perpetuating lies to push their agendas. And the power they obtained from their wholesale endorsement by the mainstream is unjust because their entire point of view is based in half-truths and outright lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Feminism calls for strong female characters therefore any strong female character must be an example of feminism. I'm afraid that just doesn't hold water.
    You see, this is why we are having problems in this thread. You guys are so concerned with attacking me that none of you are actually reading what I posted. I only mentioned feminism and you guys go crazy. None of you are hearing me over your own internal prejudice against me. You guys are supposedly intelligent individuals yet I find I have to keep repeating myself.

    I mentioned Master Luminara, Assajj Ventress and Princess Leia. None of you caught that. I also mentioned that feminism is not my primary problem with it as I said if they did this with a male lead I'd still think the movie was garbage, none of you caught that. To be honest, I'm quite disappointed to find such blind fanatical loyalty to any dogma here. I've always thought of you guys as very intelligent and intelligent people can think critically and tend to look at things objectively. Yet, when I took issue with feminism, you guys were ready to pull out your pitchforks. You refuse to accept even the remote possibility that another point of view might have some kind of merit. You guys refused to even read my posts. All you took from all I've said is that apparently I'm some kind of crackpot MRA(actually had to look that one up when Sitten called me that ). Your responses seemed almost like a pre-programmed kneejerk reaction that's set to go off at the slightest mention of certain topics. Usually you guys are willing to debate anything reasonably but as soon as I touched feminism, this thread turned into a witch hunt. It actually changed my opinion of you guys.

    Anyways, I'll repeat myself once more:

    Star Wars has always had its share of capable women. As I mentioned there are quite a few like Assajj Ventress. The problem I have with the Force Awakens is not that it has a female lead or even that she is capable. Its that she is too capable. While Star Wars is an over the top kinda show with all kind of whackyness, it has been up until now, consistent with certain themes. I've also said that I cannot go into details without spoiling it so my hands are kind of tied. Nonetheless, the portrayal of the main character is quite different to past Star Wars flicks and it's very clear that it was influenced by feminism particularly the brand endorsed by the likes of Anita Sarkessian. Apparently there's even a term for it. The main character in this latest Star Wars flick is called a "Mary Sue".

    In case nobody has every heard the term, here is one definition quoted from as impartial a source as I could find:-
    A "Mary Sue" (or "Gary Stu" for males) is a character who is overly perfect. Usually found in fan-fiction, these characters are nearly invincible, multi-talented to the extreme, and loved by everyone except the readers. Often, Mary Sue represents the author's idealized version of him- or herself projected into the world of the original fiction, also known as canon.
    I was also surprised to find when I looked up Mary Sue, that the Wikipedia page on it mentioned Star Wars The Force Awakens at the bottom. Apparently, I'm not the only one that caught on to this. And before any of you lose your minds, know that the term "Mary Sue" has no direct relation to feminism so its "safe" for you lmao.

    Anyways, this might be my last post in the thread. Sitten's deleted post proves that this website is quite possible a feminist stronghold which is quite surprising to be honest. I never would have thought. While I have my issues with feminism, I wouldn't leave over it but I will have to be very careful about interacting with people here in the future. I was quite polite and thorough in presenting my point but Sitten ended up resorting to calling me all kinds of nasty stuff which is a typical feminist reaction to criticism. It's not something I'm really willing to put up with. Those of you who have seen me post in religion threads should know that I'm no fan of blind fanaticism because it cannot be reasoned with.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 30th, 2016 at 01:11 PM.
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Disney + Abrams + Star Wars (Episode 4) = Disappointing All-But-Reboot for Millenials and their Kids.

    But what did you expect?

    Take what joy you can from it, there are things to like and the entire flick is a nice ride. Basically a vacuous rehash emphasizing "empty calories" in order to sell licensed merchandise. That doesn't make it less enjoyable.

    But this is barely more Star Wars than Fury Road was Mad Max.

    Definately a must-see movie, I don't question that. I seriously doubt this will become a classic like the 1st three movies though. See it once. Maybe watch it again in a few years.


    Hilarious to see the interwebs making much of Finn. Sorry, a nobody with a trivial story. Rey? Another nobody, sort of a "somebody else with a Luke-ish journey."

    No, this movie basically killed the franchise when it let Harrison Ford off the hook. At least he didn't Crystal Skull this one but beyond that.. yawn.

    So now the Star Wars brand has become another merchandising-only vehicle, akin to Transformers or Game o' Throwup. I presume the next one will add a few emo-vampires as major characters too?
    Last edited by dilettante; Jan 30th, 2016 at 02:37 PM.

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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post

    You see, this is why we are having problems in this thread. You guys are so concerned with attacking me that none of you are actually reading what I posted. I only mentioned feminism and you guys go crazy. None of you are hearing me over your own internal prejudice against me.
    I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know what you all are talking about. However, I HAVE read your posts, I'm just wondering whether or not YOU have. After all, you're being more than a little disingenuous in your indignation. Phrases like "licking the boots of the feminists" are hardly 'mentioning feminism'. One message came through loud and clear: You were vilifying the movie over because it was written for a feminist agenda. If that wasn't the message you wanted to convey, then I'd say that the evidence suggests that the fault is in your writing, not in our reading. This IS a pretty reasonable place, with pretty reasonable people, and everybody read your posts the same way. You communicated a message quite clearly. Nobody appears to have missed your point.

    Sure, you may have had other points, but if you review your posts, you should be able to see how any other points were posted without the hyperbole with which you decried the feminist slant. Did you wax as eloquent with any other denunciation? If so, which one?
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  39. #79
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Phrases like "licking the boots of the feminists" are hardly 'mentioning feminism'. One message came through loud and clear: You were vilifying the movie over because it was written for a feminist agenda. You were vilifying the movie over because it was written for a feminist agenda.
    You want me to sugar coat it ? Sorry, it's not in my nature. I'm calling it what it is, a piece feminist filth meant to push a crackpot agenda. However, I did explain why. No one bothered to get into the why. No one bothered to wonder "Hey why does Niya think like this ?". No, you just assumed I'm crazy and pull out your pitchforks. This is not the way reasonable folks behave.

    As far as you guys are concerned feminism shouldn't be criticized. Any criticism of it must be met with harsh retaliation. What is it about feminism that makes people so deathly afraid of saying anything bad about it ? It's pretty clear to me now why deceitful human beings like Anita Sarkessian are never called to the carpet for their dishonesty. It's because people are afraid to speak for fear of this kind of retaliation I experienced here.

    Nonetheless, I think my mistake was that I didn't realize there were feminists here as I didn't think anyone here could be that nuts. Its like going on a Christian forum and saying God doesn't exist. It would cause the same reaction.

    Anyways. Each to his own. Thankfully I live in a place untouched by feminism so I don't have to deal with these kinds of silliness anywhere but the internet.

    EDIT:

    I just remembered. I've had this type of discussion before. In dilettante's Ender's Games thread. My beef with it was another trope I despised that had gain some steam in movies. I didn't like this whole "children saving the world" nonsense. If I remembered we had a very nice discussion about it. There was non of this witch hunt behavior in that thread. My tone was exactly the same. What is the difference here ? Is it feminism ? lol.....If I didn't like feminism before, I really hate it now lmao. If this is the way it programs people to behave.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 30th, 2016 at 11:15 PM.
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  40. #80
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: STAR WARS - The Force Awakens (NO SPOILERS)

    One last bit of advice. If you guys want to spread the word about how great feminism is, misguided as that might be, your examples in this thread are not the way to go about it. You do not convince people to join your religion by resorting to ad hominem attacks and shame tactics. You have to be reasonable in your words. If anything, your approach only pushed me more against feminism. While I have read a lot of feminist literature online, this thread is the 1st time I've ever directly interacted feminists online(or ever. There's no such thing as a feminist where I'm from) and your behavior pretty much confirmed what I suspected about feminists. Its not serving your cause if you wish to win converts. You guys need to check that.

    If you guys had a different approach, I might have left this thread thinking, "Well feminists aren't so bad".
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    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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