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Thread: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

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    New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    https://www.visualstudio.com
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/mag...or=-2147217396
    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vbteam/archi...-basic-14.aspx
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...vs.110%29.aspx

    Today Microsoft released a brand new VS 2015 with VB 14 and .NET Framework 4.6, and one of the key features is native code compilation which uses back end C++ compiler like VB6 (finally, some lesson from the past). Also, it compiles .NET libraries which are used in the project into DLL and statically links them to the EXE.

    So, I think that they gave a good reason now to VB6 developers which are not so much left, to switch to .NET. I personally will test that feature and decide whether to switch to it and make .NET Native applications or not. How about you?
    Last edited by MikiSoft; Jul 21st, 2015 at 07:57 AM.

  2. #2
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    That's some cool stuff... I didn't see anywhere any thing related to native compiling... but this "the Visual Basic compiler is now open-source" ... was an interesting tidbit... I may have to get my personal system backup so I can download that and take a look.

    -tg
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    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    "Lambdas and LINQ Expressions in a Watch Window "
    "Null-Propagating Operators"

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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    "Lambdas and LINQ Expressions in a Watch Window "
    "Null-Propagating Operators"

    Finally
    Wow! I can't believe VB finally becomes a language of choice...
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    So, rather than taking the trivial time to see for myself, can somebody tell me: Do you need an internet connection for VS2015?
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    So, rather than taking the trivial time to see for myself, can somebody tell me: Do you need an internet connection for VS2015?
    I've only installed "VS Express 2015 Desktop" (on 2 Win7 PCs), seems to run just fine w/o internet connection.

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    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    But does it install w/o a connection. That's been part of some of the contention lately. The installer really isn't... but rather it's a front end which downloads the installer.

    -tg
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    But does it install w/o a connection. That's been part of some of the contention lately. The installer really isn't... but rather it's a front end which downloads the installer.

    -tg

    Well for express desktop there was no ISO. Download "wdexpress_full.exe", The first time you run it add the "/Layout" switch, that lets you DL & save all the files to a folder, (creates sub folder "packages" and copies the exe to the destination also), once you have those files you should be able to install on other PCs wo/internet, just run the exe, it will see the packages sub folder and install from those files.

    There is also a NoWeb switch, etc, see url,.
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/e2h7fzkw.aspx

    I was surprised Express 2015 Desktop is only 1.25GB...
    Visual Studio Express 2015 Desktop (English)...
    packages (folder) : 1.25 GB (1,352,439,460 bytes) 322 Files, 137 Folders
    wdexpress_full.exe : 2.79 MB (2,933,472 bytes)
    Last edited by Edgemeal; Dec 27th, 2015 at 02:42 PM. Reason: add link to MS VB 2015 installer page

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    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    But does it install w/o a connection. That's been part of some of the contention lately. The installer really isn't... but rather it's a front end which downloads the installer.

    -tg
    I'm curious: why is this a point of contention?

    While I must admit, it is annoying to see that download button and have a small 100k executable download, but at the end of the day, it didn't really matter. While many developers are behind firewalls, with security protocols to adhere to, as a developer you should generally have access to the internet beyond what your standard user has. Indeed, you have 'administrative' rights for a short period (download and install) but are a 'general user' while working, which is the majority of time.

    I recall being annoyed and surprised that the Mac Mini didn't have a DVD drive of any kind - until I realized that the DVD drive on my existing computer has become a cup holder for the past 2 years. Some things are expected, so are these migrations to a different mechanism a problem because it's a different way of doing things?
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    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    I'm curious: why is this a point of contention?

    While I must admit, it is annoying to see that download button and have a small 100k executable download, but at the end of the day, it didn't really matter. While many developers are behind firewalls, with security protocols to adhere to, as a developer you should generally have access to the internet beyond what your standard user has. Indeed, you have 'administrative' rights for a short period (download and install) but are a 'general user' while working, which is the majority of time.

    I recall being annoyed and surprised that the Mac Mini didn't have a DVD drive of any kind - until I realized that the DVD drive on my existing computer has become a cup holder for the past 2 years. Some things are expected, so are these migrations to a different mechanism a problem because it's a different way of doing things?
    For me? Pfft! I don't care. Shaggy was the one asking about the connection. To some people I can see it being an issue. Spotty connections, or an infrastructure that has stability issues... I imagine that when Shaggy goes on his walkabout each year that he's probably in a remote area that has no connection. So if he planned on downloading and installing it during that time (I think he's be a fool to do so) he's going to find that there's issues with that. That's all. I get why it is the way it is, then I'm only downloading just the pieces I'm going to use (or say I'm going to use, I may never use them, but I might). So for me it's not an issue in anyway. I'm in a developed part of the country with a mostly decent connection (It is TimeWarner though, so take it for what it's worth, which is to say it's my only choice and I'm sure I'm over paying for it).

    Installation aside - if it still requires a connection post-installation to just run... I see that being a far larger issue.

    -tg
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    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    ...

    Installation aside - if it still requires a connection post-installation to just run... I see that being a far larger issue.

    ...
    Totally agree.

    Lost power a few weeks ago (had generator so no problem), then 12 hours later lost internet (UPS on the cable substation gave out, I suppose). While losing entertainment is one thing, when you lose the ability to work is quite another.
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    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    Totally agree.

    Lost power a few weeks ago (had generator so no problem), then 12 hours later lost internet (UPS on the cable substation gave out, I suppose). While losing entertainment is one thing, when you lose the ability to work is quite another.
    Oddly, neither of those (entertainment/work) bother me too much... as long as my Kindle has power, I'm good, I always have at least two books on device for such situations (which reminds me I need to re-load a book, I'm almost done with my current one and I have Jury Duty next week - yay) - actually I shouldn't say that - it does bother me... but mostly because the kids start wigging out after a while. Oddly it's the loss of just simply being able to move air that we find to be the hardest part - You know what I mean, SC in July, Aug, Sept... turns out I'm much more acclimated or accommodating of it than the rest of the family. My wife would keep it at 68 24/7 if I let her. Since they're not usually home during the day, I've got it set to 74 for the day, then in teh afternoon, it starts a stepped cooling process so that by early eve it's down to 70 and then at night 68. Then there are the days when all I want to do is open all the windows and just let the breeze do it's thing. Aaaahhh.... I love those kinds of days. Today isn't one though. Tomorrow and the rest of the week should be.


    Anyways, I went WAAAAAY OT there.

    -tg
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Installation aside - if it still requires a connection post-installation to just run... I see that being a far larger issue.

    -tg
    I've tested both the Express and Community editions. They run offline but you have to connect to a Microsoft account within 30 days or it quits working. That updates the license. I've heard that the 2013 edition had to be connected at least once a year to keep the license current but I haven't tested for that.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Requiring a connection for install isn't a serious problem for me (the fact that my internet connection is pretty pathetic might prove to be, though). My concern was entirely with requiring a connection to use the program, which is clearly not necessary, so that's all that matters.

    I'm contemplating another coding/biking vacation for September, and it would be good to know what my limitations are.

    That whole license expiration thing was a hassle in 2013, but MS said they were going to fix it. I didn't pay much attention to it, though, since I wasn't using 2013 in a mobile way. I expect to do so with 2015, so I'll have to see what options I have.
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    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    They try to sweeten the deal as your 2013 settings are backed up through your microsoft account. New installations on other PC's can automatically use those settings.

    I don't know about 2015.

    I recently broke my arm and didn't launch 2013 for a couple of months. The automated log in stopped working and and I had to manually log in to straighten things out. I don't think it stopped me from using the product. It just complained a bit.
    Last edited by Gruff; Jul 22nd, 2015 at 10:57 AM.
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    That's some cool stuff... I didn't see anywhere any thing related to native compiling...

    -tg
    Are you sure that native compiling regards classic desktop applications?

    I have a feeling it only deals with Windows Store apps.

    I have installed VS 2015 Express (for Desktop) and I have found absolutely nothing regarding native compiling. The final exe still requires the FM.
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    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by esposito View Post
    Are you sure that native compiling regards classic desktop applications?

    I have a feeling it only deals with Windows Store apps.

    I have installed VS 2015 Express (for Desktop) and I have found absolutely nothing regarding native compiling. The final exe still requires the FM.
    I have no expectation of native compiling, because quite frankly I don't really care. I was responding to the OP who stated
    one of the key features is native code compilation
    But I think that's because I missed that half of that sentence was a link to some thing... the original four links though don't mention it. Native compiling for the store apps though isn't anything new.

    -tg
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    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    The way I read that link it indeed sounds like Native compilation is only for Windows Store Apps.
    (It is worded sort of odd.)

    Code:
    Whether you are writing a new Windows app for Windows 10 or you are migrating an existing Windows Store app, you can follow the same set of procedures. To create a .NET Native app, follow these steps:
    
    Develop a Windows store app that targets Windows 10, and test your app to ensure that it works properly.
    
    Handle additional reflection and serialization usage.
    
    Deploy and test your app.
    
    Manually resolve missing metadata, and repeat step 3 until all issues are resolved.
    If Mikisoft really wants Native for his commercial programs then I would assume he would have to make his product a Windows store app. Doesn't sound like a show stopper to me, but for vb6 hold outs it might be.
    Last edited by Gruff; Jul 23rd, 2015 at 12:29 PM.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Store apps can have a deployment issue, from what I've seen, though perhaps MS has improved that. It seems like a route to take for commercial apps, but not for LOB apps. On the other hand, I didn't think native compilation was going to be restricted in that way. I'm not in a position to try out VS2015 at the moment, so I haven't been paying much attention to native compilation, but ultimately, it does sound interesting.
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post
    If Mikisoft really wants Native for his commercial programs then I would assume he would have to make his product a Windows store app. Doesn't sound like a show stopper to me, but for vb6 hold outs it might be.
    I don't want to rely completely on Windows Store. I've read after creating this thread that only Store apps are supported for now (it really seems like they are avoiding to mention that). I'm waiting for desktop apps to be supported for native compilation too, and then I can think about moving on .NET and creating apps with it. But I don't know whether will that come true, because Microsoft is forcing Universal App philosophy so they are currently focused on Windows Store system.
    Last edited by MikiSoft; Jul 23rd, 2015 at 06:48 PM.

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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by MikiSoft View Post
    I don't want to rely completely on Windows Store. I've read after creating this thread that only Store apps are supported for now (it really seems like they are avoiding to mention that). I'm waiting for desktop apps to be supported for native compilation too, and then I can think about moving on .NET and creating apps with it. But I don't know whether will that come true, because Microsoft is forcing Universal App philosophy so they are currently focused on Windows Store system.
    I couldn't agree more with you: I am under the impression that MS are trying to trick the user into believing that desktop apps and Store apps are the same thing. Unfortunately, desktop apps still require the .Net Framework. I have already uninstalled VS 2015 Express from my PC as I am not in the least interested in developing non-native software.
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    This is what they said about .NET Native last year: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archi...rformance.aspx

    "The current preview only supports Windows Store apps written in C# and running on x64 or ARM machines, but we’re hard at work adding support for other scenarios."

    I assume the other scenarios are desktop applications because that's about all that's left. I don't see their push for Universal (a.k.a. Windows Store) apps succeeding any better than their the-desktop-is-dead-Metro-is-the-future disaster from Windows 8. There's little point to writing Universal apps when Windows Phone is dead and the only Windows tablet that succeeded is running full Windows anyway.

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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    The .NET Native FAQ provides more detail:

    Is this just about performance, or does this also allow for building C# code (say) that is natively compiled to Win32/64 and doesn’t require an install of the .NET Framework on the target machine?

    That is correct: .NET Native is not just about performance, but also about productivity and a consistent device experience. .NET Native allows you to write code using managed languages and upload MSIL packages as always. However, apps will get deployed on end-user devices as fully self-contained natively compiled code (when .NET Native enters production), and will not have a dependency on the .NET Framework on the target device/machine...

    What scenarios were considered while designing this?

    The scenarios we had in mind was Store apps for devices – allow developers to keep the .NET and MSIL productivity advantages and upload MSIL packages to the Store, and provide end-users native code (C++) like performance (with the compilation happening in the cloud similar to Windows Phone 8).
    (emphasis mine)

    It's a decent first step, but I find myself in the same camp - tying the feature to Store apps makes it a non-starter for my projects and clients.
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  24. #24
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    The .NET Native FAQ provides more detail:

    ...with the compilation happening in the cloud similar to Windows Phone 8...


    It's a decent first step, but I find myself in the same camp - tying the feature to Store apps makes it a non-starter for my projects and clients.
    I think, IOW, the native code compiler does not reside on your development machine. I can imagine some reasons, some of them actually supporting the 'Microsoft hates us' thread...
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Be careful, don't move immediately on .Net 4.6 because it has some issues for now: http://nickcraver.com/blog/2015/07/2...-on-dotnet-46/
    Last edited by MikiSoft; Jul 28th, 2015 at 07:17 AM.

  26. #26
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Doesnt look like the issues are something that would prevent me from installing it as long as its not released to production. Hotfix(s) sound like they will be coming out soon.
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    Visual Studio 2015 Update 1

    FYI -
    Visual Studio 2015 Update 1
    November 30, 2015


    Download: Visual Studio 2015 Update 1
    http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691129
    "VS2015.1.exe" - 737 KB (754,776 bytes)

    To save and install later & other PCs, run the exe with the /Layout switch,
    VS2015.1.exe /Layout
    Adjust the destination folder to save all files, Click OK, wait for download to finish.

    When done the target folder will have one exe file and one folder,...
    VS2015.1.exe - 2.74 MB (2,873,648 bytes).
    packages (folder) - 3.17 GB (3,412,526,547 bytes) - 1,806 Files, 826 Folders.

    Total:
    1,807 Files, 827 Folders
    3.18 GB (3,415,400,195 bytes)

  28. #28
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    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Quote Originally Posted by MikiSoft View Post
    ... and one of the key features is native code compilation which uses back end C++ compiler like VB6 (finally, some lesson from the past). Also, it compiles .NET libraries which are used in the project into DLL and statically links them to the EXE.

    So, I think that they gave a good reason now to VB6 developers which are not so much left, to switch to .NET. I personally will test that feature and decide whether to switch to it and make .NET Native applications or not. How about you?
    Sorry but .Net Native only exists for Metro applets, not for real programs.

    Will Server/Desktop apps benefit from .NET Native and/or the Compiler in the Cloud?

    Desktop apps are a very important part of our strategy. Initially, we are focusing on Windows Store apps with .NET Native. In the longer term we will continue to improve native compilation for all .NET applications.

    Will F# or VB or my favorite language be supported?

    This preview release supports only C# code because it’s the .NET language used by most Store apps. But nothing prevents us from supporting any .NET language when we broaden our focus.

    Compilation with .NET Native is slower than with MSIL. Why?

    Normal app development uses the standard MSIL/JIT development experience in Visual Studio. The .NET Native compiler isn’t invoked until the application is deployed to the device, after most of the development process is finished and the focus shifts to optimizing the app. At this point, the compilation times are similar to optimized C++ with Link-Time Code Generation.
    Microsoft .NET Native FAQ

    So it doesn't compile like VB6 or normal C++ at all. And the list of gotchas and "hold your mouth rights" and other disclaimers goes on and on and on. Plus you still have GC to deal with in your Metro applet (halt and sputter operation) so no gains there.
    Last edited by dilettante; Dec 5th, 2015 at 06:12 PM. Reason: provided link

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    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    461

    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    I was too enthusiastic/optimistic. :/ I already figured out that .NET Native won't compile "normal" apps, but that happened after creating the thread.

  30. #30
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,719

    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

    Yep. And as such even assuming that it works at all it has no significance whatsoever to 99.999% of .Net programmers.

    One wonders if it was nothing more than an effort financed solely to calm Wall Street jitters about the impending death of Windows on mobile devices. One pictures Microsoft melting away next to its .Net winged monkeys, crying "But, but, but we compile to native code now! What a world, what a world..."

  31. #31
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,719

    Re: New VS 15 with VB 14, .NET FW 4.6 and .NET Native

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    Forever out of reach

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