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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
I understand that corporate evil exists but isn't it really the exception?
I don't like the word evil but if you were to use "Selfish" or "Greedy" I'd say it's the vast majority. If your talking about corporations it's 100% because that's their single purpose: to make as much profit for their shareholders by any legal means they can.
I don't mean to imply that every interaction between employers and employees is exploitative or that every company or organisation engages in exploitation, but a significant enough proportion does to make some level of protection necessary.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
To argue another point though - I understand that corporate evil exists but isn't it really the exception?
Doesn't Google offer incredible benefits? Isn't that how they get and keep the best workers?
Err No i am completely with FD on this. Evil is probably not the right word but Corporations are not Moral entities there main interest is to make profit.
Companies should be looking to make a good profit but at times i think they should also have more responsibility to look after there workers. Again we need to look past ourselves here as companies tend to look after skilled workers by necessity due to the value they add to the business.
Google offer great benefits because they have / need a highly skilled workforce for which there is competition, if they don't offer those benefits then those workers will just go to Apple or Microsoft or some some other company that does offer the benefits.
There are a vast amount of lower or unskilled workers out there working for companies like Walmart or Target or others and they cannot demand the same benefits so they don't get them. Its is those workers that i would argue need some level of protection.
Holidays whether paid or unpaid for me are a vital part of work / life balance and having a right to holiday i really don't see as an entitlement, and really should benefit the Employer and Employee in the long term.
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And isn't that just the free market and capitalism driving all that?
I think this is something we will never completely agree on
I am all for a capitalist system but a completely free market system is just open to abuse. You only have to look at what has happened in the financial markets and all the recent rate fixing scandals (Forex / Libor e.t.c) so show you what happens when you allow traders to regulate themselves.
People are greedy and the more money they are gambling with the greedier they get, especially when there are few if any consequences.
Err No i am completely with FD on this. Evil is probably not the right word but Corporations are not Moral entities there main interest is to make profit.
Isn't that also descriptive of the individual: their main interest is to make a profit?
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
Very often, yes. But we're not arguing that individuals should be allowed to exploit others where companies shouldn't. Neither should be allowed to exploit others.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
They did this and They did that - garbage - it's just us.
The CEO is your neighbor. Standing right in front of you at Starbucks. If that CEO is Enron's Kenneth Lay then him and just a few other bad guys did all that damage. Those same people probably stole kids lunch money on the play ground.
I see more honest people - just they don't get rewards for that - so they aren't noticed.
People can make change. Truck driver's have been organized and protected forever. The janitor at your local elementary school has all the benefits and vacation they need.
The Stop & Shop grocery chain - owed by some Dutch firm (argh) - they are union and all protected and organized - that benefit package negotiated every few years.
Do all your European countries agree on how to hand out entitlements? Do you all like the way the people or Greece are managing their debt to the EU? Or is it the Greek Government and that protects the reputation of the people?
Bottom line - the level that entitlements to vacation time have grown over in Europe has never happened here. And the "live free or die" philosophy that so many of us have makes it a hard spot to get to.
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Much of this thread has been about corporations being the "evil" ones or not. It seems the kind of exploitation we are talking is rife throughout our history. Whether you were hauling stones up a pyramid, laying blocks for the create wall of China, or plowing her majesty's fields, the poor have always had it put to them by the rich.
I wonder if the Pharaohs gave the pyramid workers Ramadan off?
Very often, yes. But we're not arguing that individuals should be allowed to exploit others where companies shouldn't. Neither should be allowed to exploit others.
Isn't employees demanding that companies give them money when they are not working be exploitive? So is it really the company exploiting the worker, or the worker exploiting the company...
</pedantic rhetoric>
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
Isn't employees demanding that companies give them money when they are not working be exploitive? So is it really the company exploiting the worker, or the worker exploiting the company...
</pedantic rhetoric>
It seems that goes back to exempt or non-exempt again. I'm exempt from the fair labor laws so getting paid days off is part of the package we both agreed to.
It seems that goes back to exempt or non-exempt again. I'm exempt from the fair labor laws so getting paid days off is part of the package we both agreed to.
Does the mandatory Paid time Off in the OP apply to only non-exempt or both? If to both, then it doesn't matter what you may want to agree to with your employer, the employer must pay you for the time you take off.
If I recall, however, but in the UK, don't some companies have pay in lieu of time off, or has that been outlawed?
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
Do all your European countries agree on how to hand out entitlements?
No and to be honest in a federalized system (which Europe is loosely) like the US i would suggest that many entitlements should be decided at the state level, as conditions can vary quite drastically from state to state.
I don't think the right to Holidays leave is one of them though and in the EU legal holiday entitlement is indeed an EU wide legal directive. (not that its my decision what you guys do : ))
Do you all like the way the people or Greece are managing their debt to the EU? Or is it the Greek Government and that protects the reputation of the people?
Greece does have a problem but mainly due to the fact that it has a horrible record of collecting tax receipts. Dodging taxes is something of an art form in Greece. But Greece is also a victim in that a lot the debt it currently has was caused by foreign banks. The bail out funds were just the cherry on top.
As for do i like they way Greece are managing their debt to the EU?
I don't think they have a lot of choice, the cuts that they have implemented at the behest of the EU has shrunk there economy and has yet further shrunk there tax receipts, they are stuck in a debt spiral which i don't see them getting out of unless a portion of those debts are written off or they leave the EU (which would see them default on those debts).
Really we (the EU) shouldn't have allowed Greece to borrow as much as they did in the first place.
Bottom line - the level that entitlements to vacation time have grown over in Europe has never happened here. And the "live free or die" philosophy that so many of us have makes it a hard spot to get to.
You say Europe but the USA is an outlier around the world for Holiday entitlement. The vast majority of countries around the world have some sort of legal minimum holiday entitlement.
I can see though that the American philosophy of self reliance and the fact a large proportion of the population distrust the state will maintain the status quo for some time at least.
I wonder if the Pharaohs gave the pyramid workers Ramadan off?
I very much doubt its as Ramadan is an Islamic festival and the Egyptians in those times worshiped very different gods but primarily Ra the sun god !!
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...You say Europe but the USA is an outlier around the world for Holiday entitlement. The vast majority of countries around the world have some sort of legal minimum holiday entitlement.
Might that be due to some British colonialism during the past couple of centuries?
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Does the mandatory Paid time Off in the OP apply to only non-exempt or both? If to both, then it doesn't matter what you may want to agree to with your employer, the employer must pay you for the time you take off.
If I recall, however, but in the UK, don't some companies have pay in lieu of time off, or has that been outlawed?
I'm not sure what you mean. I was responding to this:
Isn't employees demanding that companies give them money when they are not working be exploitive? So is it really the company exploiting the worker, or the worker exploiting the company...
Might that be due to some British colonialism during the past couple of centuries?
haha you might think so but holidays were not something we tried to export with the empire. We were much more interested in what natural resources we could plunder.
We didn't even give a toss about the rights of most of our own citizens during the Empire days let alone foreigners!
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I'm not sure what you mean. I was responding to this:
So what was your point, again?
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
haha you might think so but holidays were not something we tried to export with the empire. We were much more interested in what natural resources we could plunder.
We didn't even give a toss about the rights of most of our own citizens during the Empire days let alone foreigners!
You do realize the Queen still holds a bit of sway in these postcolonial countries - they never really left her rule, really.
So when the government rules on something, it's only by the good grace of the Queen. Since she says it's ok, then the colonies follow suit...
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
Isn't employees demanding that companies give them money when they are not working be exploitive? So is it really the company exploiting the worker, or the worker exploiting the company...
Then I said:
It seems that goes back to exempt or non-exempt again. I'm exempt from the fair labor laws so getting paid days off is part of the package we both agreed to.
Meaning it is not exploitation if the parties agree.
Then you said:
Does the mandatory Paid time Off in the OP apply to only non-exempt or both? If to both, then it doesn't matter what you may want to agree to with your employer, the employer must pay you for the time you take off.
If I recall, however, but in the UK, don't some companies have pay in lieu of time off, or has that been outlawed?
Which I took to mean you ere addressing more than just the one line I meant.
Then I said:
I'm not sure what you mean. I was responding to this:
And now you are saying:
So what was your point, again?
Clear as mud? So what I'm saying is, it is not exploitation if both parties agree.
Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 11th, 2015 at 11:46 AM.
I went away for a week and have lost track of this thread.
Isn't the entitlement the job itself in a fundamental sense? The employer has no more right for your time than you have a right for their money. It's all just an agreement, one way or another, or else it's slavery. The agreememnt may be asymmetrical in that one party may have a more pressing motivation than the other, but it's still just an agreement. In this way, everything that the government does, whether it is mandates, exemptions, taxes, or anything else is just a pressure on those agreements that pushes in various ways. I don't really see it as right or wrong. It can be mistaken or prudent, but no more than that. After all, work isn't the purpose of our existence, if there even is one. It's just a condition of our current existence.
You do realize the Queen still holds a bit of sway in these postcolonial countries - they never really left her rule, really.
So when the government rules on something, it's only by the good grace of the Queen. Since she says it's ok, then the colonies follow suit...
Well what a load of nonsense that is, firstly the Queen has zero constitutional power in the UK it's a ceremonial role at least politically anyway. If you think any different then you really don't know the history of how the UK parliament came about in the first place or what the Queens role is now.
Maybe ask one of the Australian members of this site what they think about your statement that they never left colonial rule
Also its far easier to name those countries without some sort of legal holiday entitlement.
USA, India, Kiribati, Liberia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Pakistan, Palau, Sri Lanka, Tonga.
And India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan all have some legal holiday entitlement for certain workers (for instance Pakistan has it for Factory workers)
And the fact the India and Pakistan are on that list kind of scuppers your argument.
So depending on how you read it the USA is 1 of 7 or 1 of 10 countries in the whole world with out a legal holiday entitlement of some sort.
Last edited by NeedSomeAnswers; Jun 13th, 2015 at 12:14 PM.
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...and there goes NSAs head off the chopping block.
Some of the serfs just don't know their place. Sheesh.
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
Do all your European countries agree on how to hand out entitlements? Do you all like the way the people or Greece are managing their debt to the EU? Or is it the Greek Government and that protects the reputation of the people?
Only two weeks later and we are about to find out exactly how everyone feels about the Greek debt.
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Only two weeks later and we are about to find out exactly how everyone feels about the Greek debt.
Maybe we should have a separate thread about this as its got little to do with Holidays, but hey ...
Its a very sad thing this, if (which to be honest is looking more like when) Greece leaves the Euro it will hit them and many of the other Euro countries hard, and have a knock on effect into world markets.
It didn't need to happen, i feel both sides ( Greece and the EU / IMF) could have done more to keep Greece in.
There is a feeling in Greece that the IMF are basically punishing them for there Debt rather than helping them finding a route out of it.
In the EU there is a feeling that Greece is not prepared to reform enough or change they way there internal markets operate (which in many ways contributed to the debt in the first place) to deserve a better deal.
They have been at an impasse for weeks now with neither side prepared to move enough to find a way out of this.
Unless there is an 11th hour deal done, which is possible but doesn't look likely then Greece will leave the Euro sooner rather than later.
What kind of ironic about this is the Germans own a large chunk of the Greek debt and if Greece defaults it will hit them pretty hard.
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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
If I was Greek I'd be voting to leave. Whatever they do is going to be painful but I just don't see any way out for them without the ability to devalue their currency and make their exports more competitive.
It sucks but it is what it is.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
If I was Greek I'd be voting to leave. Whatever they do is going to be painful but I just don't see any way out for them without the ability to devalue their currency and make their exports more competitive.
Hmm i am not sure what i would vote, the only thing i would say being devils advocate is they maybe be able to devalue there currency for exports but looking a this graph
Who is going to buy anything from Greece if they do default ??
They would have to find some new markets that for sure. They wont be able to sell much to Europe or the US
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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
Who is going to buy anything from Greece if they do default ??
Based on that graph, Finland.
I know what you mean, though. That graph shows quite starkly that a Greek failure is likely to have some serious knock on to their potential major markets. Seeing Italy and Spain so high up there is particularly surprising and worrying. Those two have a high probability of failing on their own, let alone with the extra pressure of a Greek default.
None the less, I still see only two paths to a Greek recovery. One would be some major debt relief from it's creditors but that seems politically unlikely. It would also apply all the same outward pressures on it's creditors' economies as a default because, in financial terms, it's the same thing. The other is to get out and devalue so it's exports are more competitive in whatever markets remain. This would mean a substantial drop in Greek living standards as imports became prohibitively expensive but it would give the domestic economy a chance to recover.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
None the less, I still see only two paths to a Greek recovery. One would be some major debt relief from it's creditors but that seems politically unlikely. It would also apply all the same outward pressures on it's creditors' economies as a default because, in financial terms, it's the same thing.
The other is to get out and devalue so it's exports are more competitive in whatever markets remain. This would mean a substantial drop in Greek living standards as imports became prohibitively expensive but it would give the domestic economy a chance to recover.
I agree and after seeing the information that came out yesterday which pretty much said that even with accepting all the Austerity measures, Greece will still have unacceptably high debt levels up to 2030 (at 118%) it seems to me that Greece would be actually better off leaving the Euro.
The Troika (as the media call them) have basically admitted in private that there plan will keep Greece in poverty for over 20 years, and i would bet my house they could turn there economy round in less than that time if they leave the Euro even if it might mean more immediate pain.
What they really need to try and try and do is find a way to leave the Euro but not the EU
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Hmm i am not sure what i would vote, the only thing i would say being devils advocate is they maybe be able to devalue there currency for exports but looking a this graph
Who is going to buy anything from Greece if they do default ??
They would have to find some new markets that for sure. They wont be able to sell much to Europe or the US
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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
What they really need to try and try and do is find a way to leave the Euro but not the EU
Agreed but I'm not convinced it would happen. I've always believed that the Euro was really just stick to bludgeon us into a fully federalised Europe and there's too many vested interests pulling in that direction to relax the rules now. Over time you will simply see the haves in Europe (chiefly Germany and France) using debt to exerce increasing political control over the have nots (Greece, Spain, Italy etc) until a de-facto federation forms... unless the have nots decide to bail on the whole project which is looking increasngly likely.
Here's the thing, you will always have economic disparities within the geographical boundaries of a particular currency. In the UK London generates almost all the revenue for the country. Meanwhile the regions tend to have much higher levels of unemployment and much lower local tax takes. Many of the regions are not self financing, nor can they be without taking investment out of London so, as a consequence, London effectively bank roles much of the UK. Nobody has a problem with this because we recognise that we're all one nation and we don't mind sharing the burden. Additionally, London does not expect the disparity to be paid back
Europe wants to be like that but isn't. In the UK selfish regional interests don't typically win out because we don't elect, tax and spend at a regional level. In Europe, National interests do win out because that's the level we elect at. The Germans and French are some of the chief Euro Federalists but unless they're willing to go the whole hog and start bank rolling Greece instead of lending to it then you can't treat Eurpope as a nation. And they never will go the whole hog because it would be an impossible sell to their electorate.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
... And they never will go the whole hog because it would be an impossible sell to their electorate.
Never underestimate the power of patriotism.
With all the attempts to create 'One World' (or one Europe), at the individual level it is a cultural identity which can become squashed when a homogenization is created out of necessity.
On a side note, is it coincidental that Greece is a popular tourist destination, in a thread about Holiday Entitlement?
"Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt. "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk. "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."
Many of the regions are not self financing, nor can they be without taking investment out of London so, as a consequence, London effectively bank roles much of the UK. Nobody has a problem with this because we recognise that we're all one nation and we don't mind sharing the burden.
I have a problem with it
Also considering the startling lack of investment in many places i would contest that London bankrolls the rest of UK Most of the Investment happens in London, just look at Cross Rail for instance and then show me a Rail project anywhere else in the UK that has anywhere near its budget. If you went up to Newcastle or Sunderland for instance i think they would probably punch you in the face for even suggesting it
I actually think we are coming to something of a tipping point regarding London, soon no-one who isn't really rich will be able to live there or even nearby (as House Prices are ridiculous), which will begin to effect business as certain businesses just wont be viable in London anymore which will push those businesses out to the rest of the country.
I don't think it is healthy the amount of money that is concentrated in London right now and a spread out into the regions would be a good thing. I am fine with London being the biggest center of wealth and business i just think the balance has gone to far towards London at the moment.
Manchester where i live is actually doing very well probably the best of all UK cities outside London, but there are plenty of places which could do with some more investment that would have the knock on effect of taking a bit of strain off property prices in London which might mean Teachers and Nurses and the like can still afford to live there in years to come.
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Re: Holiday Entitlement ?
I agree with all that and didn't mean to imply that the centralisation of wealth around London is either sensible or fair.
Rather, we generally pull in the same direction and we try to make decisions that benefit all of us. You don't have Londoners refusing to cover the benefits bill of the regions and, while the regions really could do with some extra investment, they're generally not preaching cessation or refusing Londeners travel permits, which is essentially the rhetoric you hear betwen the nations of Europe.
Our investment is very London centric, but not to the point where we'd be happy to watch folks from Newcastle starve.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd