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Thread: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

  1. #41
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Why are they opening it up to read? I can't see a single killer reason. ... It means advanced developers can delve right down into the core if they need to. It means there's an increased chance of some open source project picking up the cross platform ball and running with it (though I personally doubt it and I suspect MS probably doubt it too).
    Actually, the source code for the FW has been available for reading for some time. They published the symbols library link back in .... oooh... at least by 2009... so you could actually step into a Datatable.Update statement, and see the underlying C# code behind it (a for each datarow loop, calling a command.executenonquery) So reading has been widely available for some time now. What's different now, is that changes can be committed back to the FW. It also means I can pull down a copy of a class for the FW, add it directly to my app, and allow it to be a little more self contained. I could gut all the pieces I don't need or if I want to tweak something, I can.

    For most developers I think this is largely a non-event. It will have the most significant impact on the small shops and the hobbyist. For those who exceed the revenue limits for the Community edition - we probably already work for a company that has shelled out for the Pro or Ultimate anyways.

    I think this may actually be a good thing for the likes of Mono and other non-Windows development tools. Previously, they would have needed to produce their own FW libraries (which is what has caused Mono to stall in my opinion) but instead can now use the published code as a base... it serves as a platform to begin with a running start (although the Mythbusters busted that, it doesn't really work).

    Part of the issues I think people are having, is that, yeah MS tried to keep things close and quiet, and if Balmer was still running the show, this wouldn't be happening... but there's been a regime change, a new attitude, and so as they make these kinds of changes, it's being eyed suspiciously. rightfully so. I just hope that that suspicion doesn't cause it to stall... kind of reminds me of the dog that finally catches the car, but then isn't sure what to do with it now that he caught it.

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  2. #42

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    I for one am looking forward to not having to purchase VS editions. Up until recent versions of express you could not work with solutions that had multiple projects - that's caused me problems...

    I'm lucky that my customers give me access to MS SQL Developer's edition - for when I get a 10 GB database and SQL Express doesn't handle that.

    What's this I hear about WPF coming back to life in the mind of MS??
    WPF 5 is in development so its active. Wheter it will continue on along side of WinRT is anopther story yet to be seen. Guess it depends on Windows 10 as Windows 8 was a failure.

    Good reading on WPF and its future:

    http://pragmateek.com/is-wpf-dead-th...future-of-wpf/

    http://greglevenhagen.com/is-wpf-dead-no/

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archi...p-for-wpf.aspx
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  3. #43
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    I love WPF. The event model is great - treading is a breeze. XAML is really powerful

    I just did some WPF coding that draws circles and ellipses on a CANVAS - connects them with lines. Puts labels around them - they are clickable - re-drawable. Had to use geometry I've not thought about since the 1970's.

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  4. #44

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Yea I love WPF too and looks to be in the mix for several more years at least.

    I forgot to reply to the comment that the FW has always been readable so yea releasing it as opensource is not that big a deal in that respect but its surely big part of their underlying plan (to take over the world? lol )
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  5. #45
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    My frustration with ASP.Net led me to write my own backend so I could customize it as my code base requires it. I can only imagine what I could have done with the source to ASP.Net backend - editable - in my project, so I could have tweaked it as needed. This has been a two year journey.

    I've got need to do low level HTTP stuff - to the point where I'm looking at HTTP.SYS and what all else is available to me. Afraid of MS releases in the future that can damage legacy stuff as it gets left in the wake.

    Source to stuff - that I can really use and edit and apply - seems like a really great offering.

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  6. #46
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    My frustration with ASP.Net led me to write my own backend so I could customize it as my code base requires it.
    You sound like a good candidate for Node.js, and even Microsoft is embracing it on Azure.

  7. #47
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    OmniSharp anyone?
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
    If this thread is finished with please mark it "Resolved" by selecting "Mark thread resolved" from the "Thread tools" drop-down menu.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    While we also have:

    Pity the poor Windows developer: The tools for desktop development are in disarray

    Analysis When Microsoft came up with Windows 8 a couple of years ago, the message was clear: the future is tablet-shaped. The Windows desktop is still there, but not much changed from Windows 7 - some things went backwards, such as translucent “Aero” windows, available in 7 but gone in 8. Now the company is scrambling to fix its desktop development tools.

    This lack of attention to the desktop was also reflected in Microsoft’s official software development frameworks. Visual Studio 2012 and 2013 included a ton of new stuff for Microsoft’s Windows Store apps, the tablet-oriented app framework new in Windows 8, and plenty more for Microsoft’s cloud and mobile efforts, but little for desktop developers.

    In Windows 10 Microsoft is putting a renewed focus on the desktop, and enabling Store apps to run there. But what of those developing old-style desktop applications? They have a range of unappealing choices.

  9. #49
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    dilettante, I received an email from Code Project entitled "Microsoft makes it less attractive for developers to create apps for Windows" however, there was not associated article link. Makes me wonder Windows is going to end up?
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    I think a lot of things are in transition at Microsoft.

  11. #51
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Perhaps this is it?

    Microsoft makes it less attractive for developers to create apps for Windows

    If so, that meager blurb isn't about Windows as such but instead the tiny worlds of WinPhone & WinRT.

  12. #52
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Can you tell me what restrictions you think are on the community edition?

    Who do you think these lots of people who still have to pay are?

    Because if the only point your making is that business over $1m turnover and 5 dev heads have to pay then i made that point earlier in this thread in post 4. - here i quote myself...



    the reality is this announcement means no individual should be paying for Visual Studio.

    You do appear to not have read the thread still!
    You seem to believe it's a lot more lenient than it really is.

    5 developers is not a lot.

    While yes, extremely small shops (i.e. as noted 5 developers) possibly won't pay for it, the reality is that there's a whole s*t ton of businesses with more than 250 computers, or >1million turnover, or more than 5 developers. It's not hard to have a company with $1million turnover. A company with 2 people can demonstrate more than 1/4 million, with significantly less profit. Adding a couple more engineers, a couple more companies on the books and turnover would exceed a million readily.

    Indeed, a company with 5 programmers using visual studio would need $250 to 1/2 million just to pay those employees a gross salary. Add-on the overhead, accounting and all the other employees (programmers are notoriously bad at math), and you will readily hit a million.

    Given that, $600 a year (or every two years, even) for a full blown VS Pro license isn't a significant part of that overhead. So, VS Pro for free is not a game changer in any way shape or form. Does it help the one-man bands? Sure. Is it going to create a larger developer base? Not really: anyone programming for Windows is already programming for Windows.

    What it will do is slow the migration away from Windows: android and iOS are the major players in the mobile market, and that's where the money is. Remember, there's a lot of talk of the desktop 'going away' - Microsofts Metro interface is an example - and the natural platform is Android and iOS, both with free, fully featured, tools.

    Further, while there were certain restrictions with Express, it had no restrictions regarding commercial application development, whereas VSC with the full blown Professional tools puts restrictions on its use, not necessarily commercially, but in an in-house situation.
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  13. #53
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quick point - I've been doing Android development and still need a robust backend. I like to do that in VS and like to leverage .Net for that.

    If I end up being able to code the Android side in VS - getting me out of Eclipse - and code and debug to the device (like I could with Pocket PC's years ago) - that would be all the better.

    MS seemed to be embracing things like jQuery a while ago - if things like that stay on the agenda then maybe VS can be a fuller dev platform for use on my web apps as well. Currently I could not imagine leaving the power of Firebug for doing JavaScript debugging. Granted I always have VS running as well (the web methods are VB.Net).

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  14. #54

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    What it will do is slow the migration away from Windows: android and iOS are the major players in the mobile market, and that's where the money is. Remember, there's a lot of talk of the desktop 'going away' - Microsofts Metro interface is an example - and the natural platform is Android and iOS, both with free, fully featured, tools...
    I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement.
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  15. #55
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    You seem to believe it's a lot more lenient than it really is.

    5 developers is not a lot.
    Not Really, i am not saying that MS gave all there tools away for free, and i am well aware exactly how few 5 developers is.

    Maybe i am wrong but you seem to take the view as to how this directly affect you, where as i was not. Non of it directly affects me really. I didn't pay for VS before, and i wont pay for it now.

    I see how this will potentially affect those learning .Net now, in particular with development moving more and more to the web and mobile. Express Editions Web Developer was really hobbled to the point where it was really hard work to use for a proper web application.

    The new VS is just much much better for Web Development and i think this move will make a difference in persuading new developers to try the .NET tools.

    Right now for instance i am creating a web app in ASP.Net using responsive design which is usable on a normal desktop, Tablet and Mobile phone.

    I couldn't have done this in the Express Editions due to the multiple projects issue and the fact i couldn't use some of the extensions i am using.

    While yes, extremely small shops (i.e. as noted 5 developers) possibly won't pay for it, the reality is that there's a whole s*t ton of businesses with more than 250 computers
    I don't see the problem with this, they can afford to pay and generally do pay.

    What i was getting at is as bigger business tend to pay for their developers MSDN licences, no individual should really be paying for Visual Studio now.


    Does it help the one-man bands? Sure. Is it going to create a larger developer base? Not really: anyone programming for Windows is already programming for Windows.
    Maybe in the windows desktop world you are right, very few new developers are going to start out today to become a windows desktop programmer, BUT ....

    The latest VS tools are much more geared towards Web & Mobile and i believe they do have an opportunity here to expand there developer base in that area.
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quick point - I've been doing Android development and still need a robust backend. I like to do that in VS and like to leverage .Net for that.

    If I end up being able to code the Android side in VS - getting me out of Eclipse - and code and debug to the device (like I could with Pocket PC's years ago) - that would be all the better.
    Yeh the only way to write native Android (and iOS) Apps in .Net at the moment is by using Xamarin which costs a fair chunk, (i think around $800 - $900 a year).

    But if Visual Studio itself gets this feature (or the costs come down) - where you can build 1 solution, with a common business logic project and separate front end projects for Win Phone / Android / iOS that would be really cool. (that's what Xamarin allows you to do)
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  17. #57
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    ...an opportunity here to expand there developer base in that area.
    And retain - or at least more fully retain.

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  18. #58
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    5 developers is not a lot
    Actually I think it is quite a lot, at least if you're using it as a yardstick to judge whether the company can trivially afford to pay for VS licences. Software's a profitable industry and if you've got 5+ developers and still can't afford to pay for licenses then you're doing it wrong.

    This isn't aimed at small development shops. It's aimed at one man bands and start ups for whom licensing costs would otherwise be an obstacle.
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  19. #59
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    This thread was about the "open sourcing of .Net" and that hasn't even occurred yet, if ever.

    .NET Core The Details - Is It Enough?

    Now enter .NET Core:

    ".NET Core is a modular implementation that can be used in a wide variety of verticals, scaling from the data center to touch based devices, is available as open source, and is supported by Microsoft on Windows, Linux and Mac OSX."

    This is wishful thinking in that .NET Core doesn't actually exist. All Microsoft have done is to start an open source project with the aim of creating something that fits the bill.
    He also talks about the 6 separate ".Nets" that exist today (5 from Microsoft and the withered stepchild Mono), and how the speculative .Net Core will be yet a 7th one if it ever comes into being.

    It is difficult to say how long we will have to wait for .NET Core and how much impact it will have. The project seems to be necessary mainly to clear up the mess that Microsoft has made of the .NET Framework. The only really new idea seems to be "app-local" deployment, which means moving away from shared libraries to code that is bound into every app. Well, in most cases storage and memory isn't an issue any more - is it?
    Nope, not an issue if you ignore the mobile world - where Microsoft is at its weakest and dying fast. Sadly, Xamarin mobile "solutions" are also quite bloated compared to actually native applications.

  20. #60
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    This is yet another article form the same place as your last 2, where some guy basically interprets a blog he doesn't even link to to support his own bias.

    There are precious few facts of any sort, but mainly a few images which are taken from another blog and the writer speculates around what they might mean which is mostly, DOOM i tell you DOOM !!

    It says nothing new, it just speculates a load again.

    Dillatente, with all your posturing about supposed .Netter posting on VB6 threads you seem to have no problem the other way!

    Just saying ...
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    The blog post is pretty easy to find:

    Introducing .NET Core

    Somebody saw fit to post this thread in General Developer instead of in the .Net ghetto here where it probably belongs, not really being of general interest. Yet here we are!

    That aside I have to wonder why the truth threatens so many of the wishful thinkers here who have been spouting all sorts of "facts" made up of whole cloth.

  22. #62

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The blog post is pretty easy to find:

    Introducing .NET Core

    Somebody saw fit to post this thread in General Developer instead of in the .Net ghetto here where it probably belongs, not really being of general interest. Yet here we are!

    That aside I have to wonder why the truth threatens so many of the wishful thinkers here who have been spouting all sorts of "facts" made up of whole cloth.
    Umm "ok". Well general is general as the topic can go in various directions of discussion. We dont have a general .net discussion forum.
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  23. #63
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Fair point to be sure.

  24. #64
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    The blog post is pretty easy to find:

    Introducing .NET Core
    So i have read that blog post, and i come to completely different conclusions to you and the guy you linked to, which isn't surprising really

    .Net Core is an attempt to bring all those separate Frameworks into 1 unified Framework which will work across all O/S's and Devices.

    In your mind it has already failed where as those of us less clairvoyant will see how successful this is in the coming months and years.

    That aside I have to wonder why the truth threatens so many of the wishful thinkers
    Once again putting your own view/beliefs onto others, firstly who's truth? as its certainly not mine, and secondly why on earth would i feel threatened? what is there to be threatened about
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Did you read the comments? Many questions were asked there and answered by the author.

    For example:

    @Yiannis Berkos: Let's say that I want to create a desktop application targeting windows, mac and linux. How can this be done?

    I'm not aware of any plans to provide a cross-platform UI framework, if that's what you're asking for.
    Once again you seem to be projecting a lot of wishful thinking onto the actual situation.

  26. #66
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Here is some more that helps dispel the murk:

    “.NET Core is the future”, but whose future is that?

    The simple question that popped up in my mind when I read about ‘.NET core is the future’, is: “if .NET core is the future of all .NET stacks, what is going to happen with .NET full and the APIs in .NET full?”
    The answer to that we already know of course. So-called ".Net full" fell into maintanance mode quite a while ago.

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    A colleague went digging and he did come up with a list of enhancements in the 4.6 Preview release of the .Net Framework, a subset of:

    What's new in the .NET Framework 2015 Preview

    So in truth there is still more going on than simply maintenance.

  28. #68
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Did you read the comments? Many questions were asked there and answered by the author.
    I did, and the full response to that comment was more interesting -

    I'm not aware of any plans to provide a cross-platform UI framework, if that's what you're asking for.

    In general, I don't think we believe in using the exact same bits on all platforms. From personal experience I'd say the goal of any successful cross-platform strategy is maximizing sharing while not compromising the experience due towards the lowest common denominator.

    So I'd say: think of your app as a burger, representing the layering. The bottom bun will require OS specific implementations, but we'll probably provide a good chunk of it. The top layer (UI) is also very likely to require leveraging OS/experience specific functionality. The beefy part in the middle represents your business logic and you should make sure you can share most of it across all platforms. OS specific concepts should be either pushed down or up (via inversion of control).
    His logic makes complete sense to me, and if i can create a solution with basically a shared back end and business logic layer and then just have separate projects for the various front ends that would be fantastic, it is a more sensible and better goal than think there will be 1 UI to rule them all.

    The thing is none of us know exactly where this will go, it is not that black and white. There is a lot up in the air, a lot in progress so we cant fully realise the shape of things, and a lot of positive sounding stuff (well to me, obviously not to you )


    One further reply by the author in those comments

    So basically WPF will die together with the old .NET Framework that will eventually be superseded by .NET Core?

    No. The .NET Framework doesn't die -- it simply versions slower. You can think of .NET Core as the faster moving younger brother.
    So in truth there is still more going on than simply maintenance.
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  29. #69
    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    I...
    His logic makes complete sense to me, and if i can create a solution with basically a shared back end and business logic layer and then just have separate projects for the various front ends that would be fantastic, it is a more sensible and better goal than think there will be 1 UI to rule them all.
    ...
    I'd agree with this. Trying to create a unified UI is a nightmare (Java is a prime example of crap UI). UIs have a fluidity to them, as we see across all our devices, that can and do change based on whims - and real reasons.

    Microsoft have been present on the Mac OS desktop for sometime with Office (It seems to be a much more polished product on the Mac than Windows, but that may just be the Retina talking). If the rest of Microsoft - the developers - can pare themselves away from relying on Windows, then Microsoft becomes a software provider and not just a Windows provider. The just so happen to offer an Operating System, also.
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  30. #70

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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    ...


    One further reply by the author in those comments

    So basically WPF will die together with the old .NET Framework that will eventually be superseded by .NET Core?

    No. The .NET Framework doesn't die -- it simply versions slower. You can think of .NET Core as the faster moving younger brother.
    So hes calling the FW the slower older brother. Why would anyone want to work with him when they can work with the younger faster brother. That would make one think that the older brother will get retired soon.

    Oh and what grounds does that author have to make teh statement that WPF is being retired? (sorry didnt read it all)
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  31. #71
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post
    So hes calling the FW the slower older brother. Why would anyone want to work with him when they can work with the younger faster brother. That would make one think that the older brother will get retired soon.
    What he was saying in the blog was that the existing .Net Framework for windows desktop development will still be developed but slower, but if you are doing any web or mobile development then you absolutely would want to be targeting the .Net Core Framework which will version faster.... when its ready, that's how i read it anyway.

    So they are absolutely looking to be concentrating more towards web and mobile and Windows App Store Apps, and pushing Azure services, not that that is a revelation in anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobDog888 View Post

    Oh and what grounds does that author have to make teh statement that WPF is being retired? (sorry didnt read it all)
    It wasn't the author that said that but one of the commenters. The Author actually linked to the WPF Blog which does layout some of a road map although its a bit vague as to what when.

    There are some nice sounding things though like -

    "We are super excited to announce that we are building a whole suite of debugging tools for WPF apps that enable you to inspect the live visual tree and modify the properties of the elements while debugging"
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  32. #72
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    It certainly wouldn't bother me to see the FW version slower. As far as I'm concerned, all the major additions have been made. The last couple versions added things that are nice for specific subsets of programming, but nothing huge for everyday use. The language has matured, so there isn't all that much need to keep adding features...except to keep making sales, but with the Professional version being released for free for most users, sales may not be the driving force in VS these days.
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  33. #73
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    Re: Microsoft Takes .NET Open Source

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    ...There are some nice sounding things though like -

    "We are super excited to announce that we are building a whole suite of debugging tools for WPF apps that enable you to inspect the live visual tree and modify the properties of the elements while debugging"
    That would be great! Just like FireBug can debug the html-DOM, having a way to poke at the WPF-xaml-like-DOM would be really great!!

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