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Thread: Pandora's Promise

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    Pandora's Promise

    I recently watched an incredible documentary on nuclear energy titled Pandora's Promise. It gave a fair amount of statistics, and two that stood out were: the amount of fatalities from nuclear energy and the amount of fatalities/deformities from Chernobyl.

    I had no idea that solar energy has more fatalities than nuclear, in fact the only source of energy that had less fatalities than nuclear was wind.

    I also didn't know that at Chernobyl, according to the WHO, only 47 workers died of ARS, 9 children died of thyroid cancer, and 4,000 could have shorter life spans due to cancer.

    I thought that nuclear was really bad, but I'm liking it more and more. Especially considering where I live is nicknamed "Cancer Alley" because of all of the refineries we have. Cancer in South Louisiana is 30% higher than the national average, in part because of the oil refineries.

    What is y'all's thoughts?
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Lies! All lies!

    Everyone know in the future all our energy needs will come from so-called "renewable" resources... like pixie dust and unicorn farts.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    I did do a comprehensive study on unicorn farts, that does seem to be the most promising too.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I recently watched an incredible documentary on nuclear energy titled Pandora's Promise. It gave a fair amount of statistics, and two that stood out were: the amount of fatalities from nuclear energy and the amount of fatalities/deformities from Chernobyl.

    I had no idea that solar energy has more fatalities than nuclear, in fact the only source of energy that had less fatalities than nuclear was wind.

    I also didn't know that at Chernobyl, according to the WHO, only 47 workers died of ARS, 9 children died of thyroid cancer, and 4,000 could have shorter life spans due to cancer.

    I thought that nuclear was really bad, but I'm liking it more and more. Especially considering where I live is nicknamed "Cancer Alley" because of all of the refineries we have. Cancer in South Louisiana is 30% higher than the national average, in part because of the oil refineries.

    What is y'all's thoughts?
    Like many documentaries you have to consider the source and who benefits. For example looking at fracking...the industry and the opponents both quote boatloads of facts supporting their positions. That being said the very first hit I got on Google looking for "chernobyl death toll" quotes these numbers:

    "It concludes that based on records now available, some 985,000 people died, mainly of cancer, as a result of the Chernobyl accident. That is between when the accident occurred in 1986 and 2004. More deaths, it projects, will follow."

    That comes from here:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-boo...m-cancer/20908

    Is that anymore or less reliable? I don't know but it points out what I'm saying.

    Scrolling down a little and you come to Wikipedia, which I trust but could be wrong, counts:

    "The environmental NGO estimated a total death toll of 93,000 but cite in their report that “The most recently published figures indicate that in Belarus, Russia and the Ukraine alone the disaster could have resulted in an estimated 200,000 additional deaths in the period between 1990 and 2004.” In its report, Greenpeace suggested there will be 270,000 cases of cancer alone attributable to Chernobyl fallout, and that 93,000 of these will probably be fatal compare with the IAEA 2005 report which claimed that "99% of thyroid cancers wouldn't be lethal".[68]"

    It is an interesting read for many of the other effects on nature and the environment.

    So my only point here is most often when I see a source quoted I look for counter points. There are periods when one side had the money and politicians in their pockets long enough to make their ludicrous arguments keep them making profits. One was the tobacco lobby. Nobody to this day can prove smoking causes cancer. That's because if you smoke you may not get cancer. But anyone with common sense knows it is extremely bad for you over a lifetime.

    I'm not making any comments on which source is more accurate, just that there are very different counts than what the OP quoted.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Sep 23rd, 2014 at 07:07 PM.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Yeah, the only one I quoted was the World Health Organization. There is no doubt that other sources(especially green-based groups) have the statistics that back a completely different view.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    I was very very young when Chernobyl happened. I remember that we were advised - not allowed to eat vegetables and fruits. The nuclear cloud was traveling all over Europe (search for that) and everyone was scared. So if i have to go, i prefer to go with more clear energy ways. Like a burning ray of Sun melt me like a marshmallow rather than a slow and painful cancer. Anyone that like nuckes so much then maybe Europe can import them to your country for a fee and get it's energy from there.
    On another note Greece has a lot of sun almost 8 month per year but our Politic basterds high taxated the clear energy sources. I hope they get cancer as well.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    The far bigger problem with Nuclear is not how safe it is while its running, it's what to do with all the Nuclear waste when the power station comes to the end of its life.

    A Nuclear Power Station tends to last around 20 - 30 years, and at the end of it you have a bucket load of depleted Uranium that you need to dispose off.

    In the past i know in the UK we paid poor African countries to take it and bury it in there country but it is becoming harder to find a country that is stupid enough to do that. So what happens when you cant and your government has to bury the nuclear waste in your own country?
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Then you bankrupt a country make it depend of you on loans and you make an agreement to remove some of the economic weight in contrast with the country bury your waste in it's soil.
    Hmmm...O S$IT!! Greek Politicians traitor of your country and secret admirers or Microsoft MVC!? May you eat a nuclear winter in your Pita Giros!
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Also i got solar energy all summer and i got burned a lot so i am also a solar energy victim (since i am of the whiter side of Greeks and i get burned A LOT). Next time i will take suntans, or should i shay, nuketans, in my convenient nuclear waste burring spot.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    One of the statistics was that if you stacked all the nuclear waste 3 meters high, side by side, it'd span the length of a football field. And of that, less that one percent have a long half life.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    One of the statistics was that if you stacked all the nuclear waste 3 meters high, side by side, it'd span the length of a football field. And of that, less that one percent have a long half life.
    In the United States alone, the Department of Energy states there are "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" as well as "thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material"
    Probably both of our quotes are true, but one sounds relatively good and the other relatively bad, so i always take those stand alone statistics with a pinch of salt, you need the context.

    In my opinion Nuclear Fuel is not the long term solution to our energy problems. Nuclear is actually one of the most subsidised forms of power generation, and each new reactor costs £Billions to build.

    Much of the spent fuel is highly radioactive and can take hundreds / thousands of years to decay and become safe. The only real way we have of decommissioning it at the moment is to bury it and seal the site for generations !

    In fact this article explains much of my opposition to Nuclear Fuel - Here
    Last edited by NeedSomeAnswers; Sep 25th, 2014 at 03:28 AM.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    I think nuclear can supply us with a temporary solution as fossil fuels run down but it will be temporary at best. I'm not sure that our capacity to deal with the waste will be the choke point on it, though, it'll be the supply of radioactive material to power the stations. That stuff's no less finite than fossil fuels are - we've just started tapping it later.

    Ultimately the only permanent solution is renewables. It'll be expensive but, let's face it, the clue's in the title.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I think nuclear can supply us with a temporary solution as fossil fuels run down but it will be temporary at best. I'm not sure that our capacity to deal with the waste will be the choke point on it, though, it'll be the supply of radioactive material to power the stations. That stuff's no less finite than fossil fuels are - we've just started tapping it later.

    Ultimately the only permanent solution is renewables. It'll be expensive but, let's face it, the clue's in the title.
    And since the Greece = Sun, our lovely Politicians, along with the loaners are trying to get their hands on photo voltaic's so that we can supply Germany with cheap energy but of course not our own country.

    Another goal is to extract petrol and let oi companies get it all and give us 2-4% of the profits.
    I feel like i live under Uganda laws down here but the time will come that the traitors will pay!
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Ultimately the only permanent solution is renewables. It'll be expensive but, let's face it, the clue's in the title
    Right now you're able to use up to 3 generations of nuclear waste and a fourth generation "local" reactor is currently being developed.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    The far bigger problem with Nuclear is not how safe it is while its running, it's what to do with all the Nuclear waste when the power station comes to the end of its life.

    A Nuclear Power Station tends to last around 20 - 30 years, and at the end of it you have a bucket load of depleted Uranium that you need to dispose off.

    In the past i know in the UK we paid poor African countries to take it and bury it in there country but it is becoming harder to find a country that is stupid enough to do that. So what happens when you cant and your government has to bury the nuclear waste in your own country?
    i suspect mankind will find a way of sending it to other planets.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Right now you're able to use up to 3 generations of nuclear waste
    What does that mean? Do you mean you can re-use the waste to fuel a second reaction?
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    What does that mean? Do you mean you can re-use the waste to fuel a second reaction?
    You can make some pretty decent bullets from it...
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    This thread reminded me of our own, United States, accident. Does anyone remember Three Mile Island?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

    That link is a good read. Very few deaths but it is a big reason Nuclear power didn't fast track in the US like other places in the world.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    What does that mean? Do you mean you can re-use the waste to fuel a second reaction?
    Yep, you basically recycled nuclear waste.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    This thread reminded me of our own, United States, accident. Does anyone remember Three Mile Island?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

    That link is a good read. Very few deaths but it is a big reason Nuclear power didn't fast track in the US like other places in the world.
    I actually never heard of the incident until I watched the movie. They actually mention that in the movie.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    ...I thought that nuclear was really bad, but I'm liking it more and more. Especially considering where I live is nicknamed "Cancer Alley" because of all of the refineries we have. Cancer in South Louisiana is 30% higher than the national average, in part because of the oil refineries.

    What is y'all's thoughts?
    If people only knew/understood the really pollution cost of the fuels we used I think nuclear would be looked upon much more favorably.

    The current fossil fuel system is a pig in terms of radiation and other nasty stuff, but they are are allowed to use the old paradigm of "dilution is the solution to pollution" to whitewash its image. Just run a search on "coal Heavy metals" or "coal mercury" to get an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I think nuclear can supply us with a temporary solution as fossil fuels run down but it will be temporary at best. I'm not sure that our capacity to deal with the waste will be the choke point on it, though, it'll be the supply of radioactive material to power the stations. That stuff's no less finite than fossil fuels are - we've just started tapping it later.

    Ultimately the only permanent solution is renewables. It'll be expensive but, let's face it, the clue's in the title.

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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    The long term consequences of the damage done at Oak Ridge and its neighboring "black" nuclear research installations ("well this place is a mess now anyway") won't be known for decades due to the heavy blanket of security over so much of it to this day. Just based on what is known things look pretty darned ugly though.

    This is one of the downsides of nimbyism: by simply moving something ugly to a "who gives a damn" location you may put it into the hands of locals far too incompetant to deal with it safely, making the problem even larger. While Hanford, WA suffers from WWII-era contamination too the scope is far smaller. It is still pretty awful though, and that's just the part that has been declassified.

    The WGN TV show Manhattan is pretty interesting.

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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    The contamination at Hanford Washington is a significant issue, as well.

    The problem I have with nuclear is all about the waste. Perhaps you create very little, but NOBODY in the US is willing to house it, and most states won't even let it be transported through them. There was that facility being proposed, but it was actually just being stuffed on the weakest state...until their senator became the majority leader, at which point they weren't weak anymore and all the geological issues with the site suddenly because a lot more serious. The point is that the only way we will come up with a disposal facility is by clubbing senseless everybody from the area, and even then we might not be able to transport the material there.

    Ultimately, I believe that the solution will be solar. There are two main issues with solar: The sun only shines during the day, and the efficiency of conversion is really bad. There are solutions to both of these problems already demonstrated pretty convincingly. Take a look into stacked solar arrays. The technology is not mature, yet, but seems likely to boost efficiency from 18% up to around 60%, which would be a game changer. As for storing the energy for round the clock generation, there are a couple demonstration plants coming on line that look really promising. In the longer term......the term has totally slipped my mind, but there's a quantum effect design (quantum photo-dynamics?...that doesn't seem quite right) that is theoretically possible, and if it could be turned into production could get to 70%, or better, efficiency.

    The point is that nuclear probably is never going to solve its problems. Fusion is about 20 years out....and always will be, so it is the perpetual solution of the future. Solar is an area where technological progress is likely, is happening, and could solve lots of problems. I'm not going to vote against technological progress, especially when solutions have been demonstrated (even the Economist had an article on stacked photovoltaics, so it isn't exactly bleeding edge). The problems with solar can be overcome, whereas the problems with nuclear can not. Ultimately, people simply hate and fear nuclear, so one of the biggest costs is that people will fight it as vigorously as they can for as long as they are able.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I actually never heard of the incident until I watched the movie. They actually mention that in the movie.
    It was about 400 miles east of where I lived at the time. I was in my early twenties.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Ultimately, I believe that the solution will be solar. There are two main issues with solar: The sun only shines during the day, and the efficiency of conversion is really bad. There are solutions to both of these problems already demonstrated pretty convincingly. Take a look into stacked solar arrays. The technology is not mature, yet, but seems likely to boost efficiency from 18% up to around 60%, which would be a game changer. As for storing the energy for round the clock generation, there are a couple demonstration plants coming on line that look really promising. In the longer term......the term has totally slipped my mind, but there's a quantum effect design (quantum photo-dynamics?...that doesn't seem quite right) that is theoretically possible, and if it could be turned into production could get to 70%, or better, efficiency.
    There are only so many known places to go for energy. You can burn stored solar power (fossil fuels, wood, GWB's infamous "switch grass", etc.), use indrect solar power (wind), use direct solar, and then you're left with fission and fusion. Since fusion remains a pipe dream we're down to fewer.

    I'm far less of a fan of the "future concept" I used to like as a kid: solar power satellites beaming microwaves to rectenna farms. This now seems to have all sorts of potential drawbacks I ignored because of the "cool factor." In any case we're not really any closer to that than we were in 1970.

    Wind has its good and bad points but will probably always be a piece of the puzzle. And perhaps that's really how we'll have to deal with this, more or less as we always have with a patchwork of alternatives.

    Storage is an issue for wind and solar and this will also probably require a diversity of solutions. There are a couple of "pumped storage" plants you can think of a "secondary hydroelectric" plants. These use turbines to pump water uphill to store energy and reverse the process to draw power. The ones I can think of have been in use for decades now with pretty good track records once the issues with fisheries interference were moderated (not solved but not as bad as when they opened). This doesn't work everywhere. For one thing you need water and for another you need topography that supports development and long term operations at acceptable cost levels.

    The one at Ludington, MI has served us well, and the parts of our subgrid more directly connected to it ride through Eastern Interconnection blackouts pretty comfortably once the switches trip and isolate us. Our Yoopers REALLY want to be trimmed from MRO and connected to our portion of the RFC, and howl about "damned Wisconsin Power" quite a bit. Frankly we'd love to be separated into our own district like Texas' TRE but we don't have the political clout. If we figure out how to get off coal we can make a better case.

    Sadly Ludington is primarily storing power generated at nuclear plants today though.

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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Pumped water is great for those places that can do it, but it takes a huge amount of area. I recently read about a large-scale demo plant being built for an interesting hot-sand solution. I think it is British based, though I'm not sure. It's all about storing energy and recovering it effectively. It may not even have to be terribly efficient, as long as it is location independent.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    There seems to be some promise with Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors on the horizon.
    Thorium is considered Fertile not Fissile and is much more common than Uranium.
    According to the literature I've read melt downs are not possible,
    half life break down is on the order of a couple of hundred years.

    There are pros and cons, but the cons do not appear to be horrible IMHO.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    The pumped water thing is interesting to me. Just a few months ago we took a tour round Snowdon where they do that.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    We have a lot of Hydro-power in the Greater Northwest. The problem is we are on the same power grid as California. They suck up a lot of the juice. Lower the water levels in the dams and thereby raise the cost of electric power.
    ---

    One idea I saw for wave power was to build concrete tubes below the low tide level at the base of sea cliffs. The sea water rising and falling in the column blew air threw turbines in both directions.
    Never heard of it since then. I would assume the moist salty air would corrode the heck out of any mechanism. Still it was an interesting idea.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post
    One idea I saw for wave power was to build concrete tubes below the low tide level at the base of sea cliffs. The sea water rising and falling in the column blew air threw turbines in both directions.
    Never heard of it since then. I would assume the moist salty air would corrode the heck out of any mechanism. Still it was an interesting idea.
    That is an interesting idea, but I'm sure corrosion would've eaten it up like you said.

    By the way, I'm not against alternative fuel sources such as wind and solar. It's just I really don't think that we should be using coal or petroleum whenever we could be using something like nuclear. The arguments against coal and petroleum far outweigh those against nuclear in my opinion.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    That is an interesting idea, but I'm sure corrosion would've eaten it up like you said.

    By the way, I'm not against alternative fuel sources such as wind and solar. It's just I really don't think that we should be using coal or petroleum whenever we could be using something like nuclear. The arguments against coal and petroleum far outweigh those against nuclear in my opinion.
    I agree and part of that goes back to my initial post:

    "There are periods when one side had the money and politicians in their pockets long enough to make their ludicrous arguments keep them making profits."


    Coal and petroleum will be dominant as long as those groups making very big money and they have the politicians in thier pockets. At least in the US. It will continue in China and India for different reasons but even in China, where babies are wearing dust masks with disney land characters on them, they may start to shift.

    It is a crying shame our politicians sell us out to keep getting elected by siding with groups that are hurting mankind as a whole to keep themselves rich.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post

    but the cons do not appear to be horrible IMHO.
    You mean, just white-collar, petty-theft, and things like that?

    One of the issues with things like tidal power is that they are so regional that larger companies may not be interested due to the narrow market potential. Coal and gas are pretty universal. Making one or two demo power plants here and there doesn't seem to be a strategy that anybody wants to work with. Companies seem to want a technology that allows them to keep building more of those plants for more people. That's understandable, since the power company itself is generally not building the plant.

    Nuclear has some issues, but I do agree it is better than coal from an environmental perspective. I also think that it is nearly hopeless due to the fact that it is political poison. The technology is there, it's just that nobody wants it anywhere near them, which means that the only way one of those plants gets built is by ramming it down the throats of a very unwilling populace. I'm hoping for a better solution, and feel that solar holds that promise because technological advance is already happening and has strong future potential. It'll have a cost, too, but it will likely be FAR more palatable to the neighborhood where it is built.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    I'm hoping for a better solution, and feel that solar holds that promise because technological advance is already happening and has strong future potential. It'll have a cost, too, but it will likely be FAR more palatable to the neighborhood where it is built.
    My reservations with solar is the same as yours on tidal power, it's regional. Not so much as tidal, but still. Some regions that preform well are: death valley, west Texas, and eastern California where as some regions that do badly are the northwestern states, even my state(Louisiana) and eastern Texas.

    Wind is the same thing, only much more so than solar.

    The argument with nuclear where it will have to be placed in a location against the community's will is not a valid argument. The same thing could be said about the oil industry. Look at South Louisiana, we have the Gulf of Mexico which produces a ton of oil which in turn produces a ton of offshore jobs. We also have a good bit of refineries which in turn produces a ton of jobs. Both offshore jobs and refinery jobs have an incredible amount of risk, not just physical risk but also mental. Not to mention that the long term risk far outweigh the short term. But my point is... There will be a large amount of people that follow the money, this includes nuclear jobs.

    I don't think that there will be an issue finding a place to hold a nuclear plant. Will it be harder than finding a place to hold a McDonalds, sure. Will it be harder to than finding a place to hold an oil refinery, doubt it.
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    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Wind farms are great as long as they do not build them near you.
    I hear the noise level is nasty. Further they play hell on birds. (Slice and dice.)

    The other downside is that they are an ugly mark on the landscape.
    No way to pretty them up.
    ---

    As a lad like dilettante I was in love with the idea of beaming power down from orbit.

    That is until it was pointed out that that much power could obliterate anything the beam touched.
    (If it ever lost its lock on the receiving station.)

    I recently watched a video of an interview with Elon Musk where he said he looked into beamed power solutions and the numbers just do not add up.

    Power loss is huge apparently.
    Last edited by Gruff; Sep 29th, 2014 at 04:19 PM.
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    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post
    Wind farms are great as long as they do not build them near you.
    I hear the noise level nasty. Further they play hell on birds. (Slice and dice.)
    It's not just wind farms that threaten birds...

    'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say

    What would be worse for a bird? Being sliced in half mid-flight or being burned to death?
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    It's not just wind farms that threaten birds...

    'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say

    What would be worse for a bird? Being sliced in half mid-flight or being burned to death?
    Omg, I laughed so hard when I read this. It's like something that you'd see in a cartoon.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    It's not just wind farms that threaten birds...

    'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say

    What would be worse for a bird? Being sliced in half mid-flight or being burned to death?
    Omg, I laughed so hard when I read this. It's like something that you'd see in a cartoon.
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, it is bad." - Cory House
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  38. #38
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
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    Re: Pandora's Promise


    One crow to another. "Geez that solar farm nearly singed my tail feathers off." "Say what's that sound" *** Slice ***
    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  39. #39
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    My reservations with solar is the same as yours on tidal power, it's regional. Not so much as tidal, but still.
    I don't think that the location of Solar farms or Wind farms matter as long as they are plugged into the National Grid, the bigger problem is the fact that you don't always get enough Sun and the Wind doesn't always blow.

    This is why Power Storage is so important, if we can find a cost effective way to store power ( and there are a few in development) it will make it irrelevant, we could store power for times when there is no wind / sunshine.

    I do agree though in the shorter term we wont fill all our energy needs with green energy, there will have to be a mix. In reality this will include Coal, Gas, Nuclear and Renewable's.

    One of the big attractions to me of Renewable's is they are technology led, and like most technology as you innovate the costs come down and the efficiency goes up. This is already happening with Solar Panels for instance which are a lot more efficient now then when they were first produced.
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    Re: Pandora's Promise

    Imagining a dual purpose facility, "Arizona Fast-Roasted Buzzard Stand and Power - We cook out the juices while delivering the juice."

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