dcsimg
Page 16 of 24 FirstFirst ... 613141516171819 ... LastLast
Results 601 to 640 of 957

Thread: What if there was a NEW vb6

  1. #601
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Don't they already have that? I can't make myself into a novice again, so I can't be certain, but VB.NET sure seems as easy as VB6. The only thing that it is really lacking is that I would expect that a lot of VB6 programmers started with VBA, and no longer have that route. For my part, I think I would have picked up .NET faster than VB6, because I learned C++ early on, and really liked the OO model. I was always trying to get VB6 to appear more OO, though you could only go so far with that, since the language didn't allow much.

    What I think will bring in novices the quickest is gratification. The ability to create a Hello World application rapidly is a real plus. That's not so easy to do with C/C++, but is equally easy to do in VB6 and VB.NET (and C#, for that matter). The problem is that it may be even easier to do in HTML. The point is that there are sufficiently simple tools to draw in novices, but MS no longer dominates 90% of computing devices out there and that has nothing to do with the presence or absence of any particular language or suite of languages. There is no threat to Windows on the desktop. There is no success for Windows off the desktop. No language is changing that.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  2. #602
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    17,864

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by MikiSoft View Post
    In fact VB6 enabled the client to also be the programmer. A tool like that was clearly a threat to the programming community.
    I find this an absurd statement. First - when my clients start giving me programming suggestions I'm in trouble. Second - it's paranoid to think this was a real world concern/strategy!

    Matter of fact you are giving MS way too much credit for the state of programming in the world. PC's and VB2-3-4-5-whatever were ignored by the business community for years. There were minicomputers and mainframes around for decades with us programmers already aware of how to solve problems for clients with code.

    Until real database capability came along (MS SQL 2000) I personally ignored the PC realm. And MS had to buy that product.

    My clients are chomping at the bit to switch from my 15 year old VB6 UI to my new web based UI - we're talking tax collectors at town halls - payroll clerks - all kinds of municipal applications.

    VB6 didn't do anything special for my customers.

    All I read currently is how MS needs a win for Windows 10 and for that they need a large user base to (thus the free upgrade) to inspire developers to make programs for Windows 10.
    It's not developers - it's everyone. I can serve up apps in browsers - I can serve up apps on Android devices. I'll eventually do ios stuff. That's what business is looking for right now - not some VB6 long-in-the-tooth solution from a decade ago. MS has to somehow stay relevant - that is what the free upgrade is imo - and VB6 does not give them any props in that game.

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  3. #603
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    I find this an absurd statement. First - when my clients start giving me programming suggestions I'm in trouble. Second - it's paranoid to think this was a real world concern/strategy!
    I didn't disagree with that statement as much as you. I think he has a real point there, though not stated quite right. There was a goal with macros, VBA, BASIC, and early VB that was to make it easier for the average user to do programming. That never happened, of course. What DID happen was that some subset of users dipped their toes into the pool and found it to their liking. Most clients didn't end up doing any coding because they were either afraid of the water or dipped their toes in and found it not to their liking. So, those languages kind of allowed the clients to be the programmers, but in practice they tended to act as sieves to filter out an interest in programming.

    Secondly, there ARE people who would be threatened by this. Such behavior is seen in any even vaguely exclusive group. There will be some who want it to be more exclusive, and will be threatened by others joining. This can be seen in programming to some extent in certain cartoons and the like, so the feeling is there. I don't think it's either widespread or significant, but it does exist.

    So, I don't think the statement is absurd, I just don't think it was stated quite right.
    Matter of fact you are giving MS way too much credit for the state of programming in the world. PC's and VB2-3-4-5-whatever were ignored by the business community for years. There were minicomputers and mainframes around for decades with us programmers already aware of how to solve problems for clients with code.
    As DDay would say: Pffft, you guys is OLD!!

    I'll eventually do ios stuff.
    You'll be sorrrrryyyyyyy.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  4. #604
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    5,639

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Wow, people are still jiving over VB6 ? Jesus Christ!!
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  5. #605
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    What ELSE is there to do?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  6. #606
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  7. #607
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    1,187

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by MikiSoft View Post
    A good comment by Chuck:

    Lots of folks wonder why MS moved away from VB6 (or as they say moved on). I think the decision was partnered with the profession of programming. VB from beginning to VB6 made windows programming accessible to almost anyone. Not toss away programs but science and business all the way up to corporate and industrial type programs. A VB6 programmer didn't have to be a computer science graduate or have any MS programming certificates to make a living coding real world money making apps. In fact VB6 enabled the client to also be the programmer. A tool like that was clearly a threat to the programming community. MS would rather relegate "anyone programming" to useless programming using SmallBasic.
    I take beef with this statement. I'm not a CS major or certified in MS technology. I started with vba and eventually moved into vb.net. I was the "client" that you speak of. I write code every day now (outside of IT) to supplement mainframe systems. I used to do this with macros in excel, then vba in access databases, and now vb.net. All I care about is delivering a solution, and vb.net has enabled me to quickly and easily do that. The control, functionality, and scalability offered far surpasses anything else I have used including VBA.

    Microsoft has in no way made it more difficult to get the job done. The language is just an end to a means.

  8. #608
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    5,639

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    I take beef with this statement. I'm not a CS major or certified in MS technology. I started with vba and eventually moved into vb.net. I was the "client" that you speak of. I write code every day now (outside of IT) to supplement mainframe systems. I used to do this with macros in excel, then vba in access databases, and now vb.net. All I care about is delivering a solution, and vb.net has enabled me to quickly and easily do that. The control, functionality, and scalability offered far surpasses anything else I have used including VBA.

    Microsoft has in no way made it more difficult to get the job done. The language is just an end to a means.
    This would fall on deaf ears. All this whining over VB6 is not actually about how "perfect" it was, its about some misguided feeling of betrayal over the decision to halt development of VB6. More practical people would stew for a while and simply move on but the less mature people would make threads like this and continue to cry about it for decades after. This thread is really nothing more than a childish response to the cold pragmatism of the world. No true professional would actually waste time on a ridiculous venture to revive dead tech for no other reason than their own personal discomfort.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  9. #609
    Lively Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    120

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    <Edited ... Dont know how to delete it >
    Last edited by JackB; Jul 29th, 2015 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #610
    Lively Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    120

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by MikiSoft View Post
    A good comment by Chuck:

    Lots of folks wonder why MS moved away from VB6 (or as they say moved on). I think the decision was partnered with the profession of programming. VB from beginning to VB6 made windows programming accessible to almost anyone. Not toss away programs but science and business all the way up to corporate and industrial type programs. A VB6 programmer didn't have to be a computer science graduate or have any MS programming certificates to make a living coding real world money making apps. In fact VB6 enabled the client to also be the programmer. A tool like that was clearly a threat to the programming community. MS would rather relegate "anyone programming" to useless programming using SmallBasic.

    All I read currently is how MS needs a win for Windows 10 and for that they need a large user base to (thus the free upgrade) to inspire developers to make programs for Windows 10. I think MS fails to realize what made Windows great (in in many cases indispensable) in the past (and even now) was the vast world wide use of VB6 and the many "novice" and professionals programming windows apps because of not only the RAD but the ability to scale from RAD all in the same VB6 IDE.

    MS needs an active novice to professional development platform again and it would do well to bring back VB6 with some enhancements to work in 64bit and with the new OS 7-10.
    Too late.

    Billions of small beasts (smartphones) are out there , and they are hungry for data.

    And somehow they are feeded.

  11. #611
    Fanatic Member esposito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Perugia, Italy
    Posts
    961

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    More practical people would stew for a while and simply move on but the less mature people would make threads like this and continue to cry about it for decades after.
    I agree. The only thing we should point out is, however, what we mean by "moving on". To me, today's developers cannot ignore the proliferation of operating systems on the market. So, moving on actually means being able to develop applications for the major OSs: Windows and OS X for desktop computers (Linux has very little commercial potential), and Android and iOS for tablets and smartphones. The only programming languages that should be taken into consideration are the ones which allow the programmer to develop software for all of the platforms. Personally, I'm happy to have abandoned VB6 and switched to Delphi as the ecosystem of my apps has now expanded considerably.
    Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.

  12. #612
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I think that we can ignore proliferation on the desktop. Linux and OS X both seem to have a perpetual small share, but nothing huge. The growth area is mobile.

    I actually heard somebody on the news yesterday try to suggest that Microsofts goal with Win10 is to get people to come back to the desktop!! Does anybody think that MS believes a desktop OS could "bring people back" from mobile? That just seems like a ludicrous idea. I think they can coexist, but the only way I see MS destroying mobile is not via software, it's via hardware. When we get to the point that the power of the desktop is found in the form factor of a phone, then doing away with mobile OS would be possible, but not until then.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #613
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    The little bit most people ever do can be done on a mobile device. Most phones have grown to a size that lets them serve as canoe paddles in a pinch, cannibalizing much of the tablet market as well.

    This means desktop computers as we know them will probably become speciality devices, and the same might be true for dedicated non-phone tablets. Laptops will probably really become niche products since they have most of the disadvantages of a desktop with few of the advantages.

  14. #614
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,148

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    IMO Microsoft Lightswitch is a far easier-to-use RAD environment than VB5 (then VB6) ever was.
    If you want to throw together business applications, that is the way to go.

  15. #615
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Ugh. A weird IDE designer, an ad-hoc "framework" that has radically changed at least once, old ASP.Net 4.0, and the shambling nag of the deprecated Silverlight.

    It’s 2015, and LightSwitch is dead… Now what?

    Yep, hitching my career to that star... not!

  16. #616
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The little bit most people ever do can be done on a mobile device. Most phones have grown to a size that lets them serve as canoe paddles in a pinch, cannibalizing much of the tablet market as well.

    This means desktop computers as we know them will probably become speciality devices, and the same might be true for dedicated non-phone tablets. Laptops will probably really become niche products since they have most of the disadvantages of a desktop with few of the advantages.
    I agree with that, but I also think things could be different when a mobile phone has the computing power of a desktop (you know it's coming, it just hasn't gotten here, yet).

    We have yet to use a tablet for a canoe paddle, but we do have some tablets that would work fairly well for that, and now that you mention it, it's not a bad idea. We have some iPads in LifeProof cases for use in the field. For some reason, Apple designed the iPad with a crazy-low maximum operating temperature. At 90 degrees (F), it will shut down. That's not an unreasonable temperature to reach even in Idaho, so sometimes we have to dunk the tablets regularly to keep them operating. Using them as paddles would therefore serve double duty.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  17. #617
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Nothing like making lemonade out of lemons, huh?

  18. #618
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    On a personal note:

    I represent the aging segment of technological users.

    I do not have microscopic vision or teeny tiny fingers.
    cell phones are useless for me as a web portal.

    Tablets unless they are huge are also difficult for me to use.

    With diabetes I have numbness in my extremities, so I am constantly mistakenly swiping bad information with touch interfaces.

    These are a few of the reasons I stick to a desktop.

    Carp, Carp, Carp... and get off my lawn you dang kids.
    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  19. #619
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    806

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I agree with that, but I also think things could be different when a mobile phone has the computing power of a desktop (you know it's coming, it just hasn't gotten here, yet).
    I think we've already crossed that bridge.

    If we use Apple as a model (which is easy since they have very predictable mobile and desktop hardware), their mobile chips are consistently competitive with mid-range Apple laptops from 3-4 years previous. If you want hard numbers, the A7 in the iPhone 5s (September 2013) was comparable performance-wise to the Core 2 Duo in the fall 2010 MacBook Air. The gap between mobile and desktop CPUs actually decreased with the iPhone 6, thanks to a combination of Apple's aggressive hardware development and Intel's delayed rollout of new CPUs.

    What makes the comparison even more incredible is remembering that a laptop/desktop CPU and a mobile CPU have totally different thermal constraints. If you look at the far more relevant performance-per-watt metric, mobile CPUs already outperform desktop CPUs in many usage scenarios. GPU performance is also remarkably similar for the average phone vs average integrated-GPU desktop, given that most smartphones already drive desktop-class displays.

    Sure, there will always be a group of desktop CPU users (gamers, etc) who need the latest and greatest that Intel has to offer, and for them, mobile hardware may never be competitive. But for the average user, their phone/tablet already matches - or possibly even exceeds - the Windows 7 PC they're likely using.

    IMO, mobile computing power is no longer a problem for the average consumer. The form factor is, which is why owning a laptop/desktop is still a "necessity" for most.
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  20. #620
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,372

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    IMO, mobile computing power is no longer a problem for the average consumer. The form factor is, which is why owning a laptop/desktop is still a "necessity" for most
    You might be right. If so the only thing stopping us using our phones as desktops is the docking technology.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  21. #621
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    32,566

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post
    On a personal note:

    I represent the aging segment of technological users.

    I do not have microscopic vision or teeny tiny fingers.
    cell phones are useless for me as a web portal.

    Tablets unless they are huge are also difficult for me to use.

    With diabetes I have numbness in my extremities, so I am constantly mistakenly swiping bad information with touch interfaces.

    These are a few of the reasons I stick to a desktop.

    Carp, Carp, Carp... and get off my lawn you dang kids.
    Same here... which is why I went with the Nexus 6 when getting my most recent phone. It's got the larger (6" diag) screen... the OSK is subsequently larger ... I type with a lot fewer mistakes, and I can make stuff larger when I need to w/o sacrificing screen real estate.

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  22. #622
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I am still using a Samsung Galaxy S2.
    About all I can do with it is make calls.
    I use the voice translator to text to avoid having to thumb type.

    On a side note I have my kindle font set to about 1/4".
    Less text per page, but I can read it.
    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  23. #623
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    32,566

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I was on the Galaxy III - for three years - it was the first and only phone I've owned that went the full distance of the contract and then some... the only reason I moved to the N6 was because I was starting to have battery & performance issues with it.


    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  24. #624
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    You might be right. If so the only thing stopping us using our phones as desktops is the docking technology.
    Well, I think it isn't so much that as a mental shift. I'm mostly in agreement with Tanner_H, but not entirely. Apple is a pretty good example, but their share of the desktop is a stagnant minority. The majority of desktop users are still using Windows, and since Windows phone is...pretty much a joke, the comparison isn't quite there, yet. The CPU power of a phone is really impressive, but you can't run Windows on a phone because the CPU is a different architecture that is focused on low power. The code won't load and run.

    What I expect is that, as chips improve, we will have a device that CAN run Windows (and not because MS ports the code to some other chip architecture). We already have that, to some extent, in tablets. What I'm not sure that we have is the mindset that your tablet IS your desktop. At a recent conference, lots of the presentations ran off of Surfaces, so people are coming around, but I want to have one device. One device at the office, which I then unplug when I leave the desk. One device that allows me multiple monitors when I plug it into a docking station and a tablet (or light laptop, really) when I'm on the road. One device so that when Gruff swipes information, it isn't JUST bad information, but ALL of it (he may mistakenly swipe bad information, now, but if you had one device he could swipe the whole thing and decide later what was good and what was bad).
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  25. #625
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    One device so that when Gruff swipes information, it isn't JUST bad information, but ALL of it (he may mistakenly swipe bad information, now, but if you had one device he could swipe the whole thing and decide later what was good and what was bad).
    No clue as to what you mean by that. I was speaking about the interface. With a touch screen phone I do not get the correct feature in many cases when tapping on the screen or conversely just handling the phone will accidentally launch features or apps I don't want when making a call.
    Trying to use the virtual keyboards is an ugly experience. Press B I get V, Etc...

    Granted it has to do with my health and age but even so...
    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  26. #626
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,372

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    No clue as to what you mean by that
    Racoons are famous for swiping stuff. Don't come over all innocent now.

    I know what you mean about touch screen, though, and I said in another thread that I think it's being marketed beyond it's actual capability at the moment. It's certainly better than the various control mechanisms for mini-devices that came before (you'd be hard pressed to operate a modern smart phone with an old school d-pad) but it's still far from a perfect experience.

    The CPU power of a phone is really impressive, but you can't run Windows on a phone because the CPU is a different architecture that is focused on low power.
    Yeah, the docking technology argument felt wrong when I made it (it would be such an easy gap to close) but it did seem the obvious conclusion to draw from Tanner's post. Power's an interesting point in that our capacity to store energy in a solid state is still a limiting factor on so much we do and may still be causing us to use the "wrong" hardware technology on devices if we're hoping for a unified experience.

    I'm not sure I buy the psychology argument, though. I never cease to be amazed at how readily people will switch their mental position in order to consume a useless gadget so I don't see why we'd be so reticent to do so for a useful one.

    All of which begs the question: why aren't we there yet? I do wonder how big a factor the lack of a unified OS is. MS are the only people offering one and it took a pretty good drubbing on the desktop and barely even got noticed on mobiles. Win10 might gain more traction but I'm not convinced it's going to be enough.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  27. #627
    Fanatic Member esposito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Perugia, Italy
    Posts
    961

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I think that we can ignore proliferation on the desktop. Linux and OS X both seem to have a perpetual small share, but nothing huge. The growth area is mobile.

    I actually heard somebody on the news yesterday try to suggest that Microsofts goal with Win10 is to get people to come back to the desktop!! Does anybody think that MS believes a desktop OS could "bring people back" from mobile? That just seems like a ludicrous idea. I think they can coexist, but the only way I see MS destroying mobile is not via software, it's via hardware. When we get to the point that the power of the desktop is found in the form factor of a phone, then doing away with mobile OS would be possible, but not until then.
    I believe that desktop computers will never disappear, simply because they are ideal for office work. In the school I work for, we make large use of iPads in the classrooms, but when it comes to preparing exercises for our students, filling in application forms or writing any documents in MS Word, we go to our offices and use our PCs or Macs. Don't be so sure OS X only has a small share on the desktop. A couple of years ago, the vistors to my Web site who had a Mac were less than 5%. This year they are about twice as many.
    Last edited by esposito; Jul 30th, 2015 at 02:00 AM.
    Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.

  28. #628
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    806

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
    What I'm not sure that we have is the mindset that your tablet IS your desktop. At a recent conference, lots of the presentations ran off of Surfaces, so people are coming around, but I want to have one device. One device at the office, which I then unplug when I leave the desk. One device that allows me multiple monitors when I plug it into a docking station and a tablet (or light laptop, really) when I'm on the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    All of which begs the question: why aren't we there yet? I do wonder how big a factor the lack of a unified OS is. MS are the only people offering one and it took a pretty good drubbing on the desktop and barely even got noticed on mobiles. Win10 might gain more traction but I'm not convinced it's going to be enough.
    IMO, the more relevant question is: why do you assume that unification is a better thing than specialization? Why is "one OS to rule them all" better than "separate OSes with separate strengths"?

    I have a different perspective on this. Before I went all-in on the Apple ecosystem, I was mainly a Linux user. Between 2009 and 2013, my phone was a Nokia N900, a phone that I adored not just for the typically great+eclectic Nokia hardware (slide-out keyboard! stylus! weird built-in features like FM and infrared transmitters!) but because it ran Maemo, a full-blown version of Linux.

    Even on its 2009-era phone hardware, the N900 could run just about any desktop Linux software. Whipping out the full version of something like OpenOffice was a neat parlor trick, but within 30 seconds, you realize something obvious: there's not actually much point to running desktop software on a phone. Even if an alternate or adaptive interface is available, the usage models are so completely different that it's obviously preferable to have two versions of the software, versions that emphasize the strengths of whatever form factor you're using.

    To stick with OpenOffice as an example, on the desktop an install takes something like 400 mb, 390 of which is niche features that you use every once in a blue moon. On a phone, I'd much rather have a 10 mb version that emphasizes battery life and brevity over "everything and the kitchen sink", even when the phone is physically capable of running the full version. Same for everything from a media player to a photo editor to a web browser.

    So for me, convergence is a red herring. It's no different from the way we all have toasters and microwaves and blenders in our kitchens, specialized devices that do specialized jobs just fine, instead of an all-in-one magical kitchen gadget that does all those tasks equally poorly.

    With my current Macbook / iPhone / iPad assortment, if I get a text message or phone call, it pops up on all devices and I can use whichever one is convenient to answer/reply. I can use the stripped-down mobile version of Numbers (Apple's Excel) to read and review spreadsheets, or I can pop onto the laptop to do hardcore editing or revisions. Fundamental tasks like web browsing are handled by browsers that emphasize different things: on the phone, battery life + readability, vs performance and extensibility on the laptop. But my passwords and bookmarks and settings are all happily synched across all devices. I can keep my full music collection on the laptop, which has a nice big hard drive, but on my phone I prefer to use the cloud to stream whatever music I'm in the mood for on a given day, to avoid bogging down the device with albums I may only listen to once a year.

    Anyway, after trying both models, I prefer the Apple model: different devices that do different things well, but they share relevant information via a mix of local networking and the cloud. I honestly don't want my laptop/desktop constrained by mobile device limitations, regardless of how powerful mobile hardware gets. (There will always be different constraints in a passively cooled device vs an actively cooled laptop/desktop, let alone the advantages offered by a larger physical size. Think of it this way: however powerful mobile hardware gets, you'll always be able to cram 20x of that hardware into a box the size of a desktop!)

    Now if Apple could just give me a phone with the iPhone's CPU+GPU+screen, and the hardware keyboard and weird niche features of my 6-year old Nokia, I'd be a truly happy man. (grumble touchscreen keyboards are the worst grumble grumble)
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  29. #629
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    The so-called "unified Windows" both is and isn't unified. And it has nothing at all to do with the CPU architecture.

    The ill-fated Windows RT was nothing more or less than plain old Windows NT with the desktop restricted so that only "Microsoft blessed" desktop applications could be installed there. Most Microsoft and nearly 100% of 3rd party software was only allowed for the WinRT subsystem.

    The fact that it was only released on ARM-based systems was nothing but a marketing choice. Windows RT for x86 and x64 was perfectly possible, you just couldn't buy it because Microsoft never released it.


    The claimed "unification" just means that Windows Phone (Windows CE based) was killed off. It was replaced by "Windows Phone 8" which was really just Windows RT offered for both ARM and x86 phones... with almost every application running in WinRT because Microsoft finally rewrote their Office, etc. applications for WinRT.

    Windows 10 is the same thing, renumbered. Windows 10 Mobile is just a Windows NT operating system with the desktop locked down so you can only run WinRT applets. Just as before it can run on ARM, x86, and x64. The only thing new is that Microsoft makes it available for all 3 architectures.

    However you can only install and run desktop applications in the desktop editions of Windows 10. Everything else is WinRT/Metro, which sadly hasn't been discarded yet in order to keep the vain hope of Windows-based phones alive.


    This can all be confusing if you don't realize that Windows RT and WinRT refer to two entirely different concepts.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 30th, 2015 at 04:14 AM.

  30. #630
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by esposito View Post
    I believe that desktop computers will never disappear, simply because they are ideal for office work. In the school I work for, we make large use of iPads in the classrooms, but when it comes to preparing exercises for our students, filling in application forms or writing any documents in MS Word, we go to our offices and use our PCs or Macs. Don't be so sure OS X only has a small share on the desktop. A couple of years ago, the vistors to my Web site who had a Mac were less than 5%. This year they are about twice as many.
    I agree that there is a lot more OS X out there today than a lot of people living under the Microsoft Dome realize.

    What I'd add is that two of my newer clients are small municipalities. While my work isn't in their schools, they have combined IT groups into one and this has had a spillover efect. At this point nearly all of their servers are Linux-based or in the Cloud, tablets are overwhelmingly Android with iPads here and there, and a lot of ChromeBook and ChromeBox devices have replaced their old desktops aside from a few Mac machines and a very few Linux desktops.

    The only Windows left in these places are a few legacy servers and a small number of desktops used by software developers.


    Today on the radio some Wall Street guy said Windows was on 97% of computing devices in 2000 and that has dropped to 20% today. I'm not sure it isn't an exaggeration but I believe it is the trend.

  31. #631
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    With my current Macbook / iPhone / iPad assortment, if I get a text message or phone call, it pops up on all devices and I can use whichever one is convenient to answer/reply.
    This is one benefit of a centrally-controlled device ecosystem.

    Since Microsoft long ago lost the mobile market when they killed off Windows Mobile 6.x they will never have the ability to offer this. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to cobble something similar together with the viable mobile platforms, but it can't be as graceful because they don't have the necessary level of control.

    Part of this can be cobbled together yourself, with limitations. See View Android Notifications On PC With Desktop Notifications App.

    Microsoft could improve on this by building compatible infrastructure into Windows. It won't have the elegance of a centrally-planned model but it would be less of a hack and easy for users to set up. Almost all of the limitations are on the Microsoft side though, and unless it helps them sell struggling products like Azure they have little motivation.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 30th, 2015 at 04:47 AM.

  32. #632
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruff View Post
    No clue as to what you mean by that.
    I was simply interpreting your previous post in the way that made it most interesting, rather than in the way that you intended it. After all, "mistakenly swiping bad information" could have two meanings, depending on whether you take "swiping" out of context.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  33. #633
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    To stick with OpenOffice as an example, on the desktop an install takes something like 400 mb, 390 of which is niche features that you use every once in a blue moon. On a phone, I'd much rather have a 10 mb version that emphasizes battery life and brevity over "everything and the kitchen sink", even when the phone is physically capable of running the full version. Same for everything from a media player to a photo editor to a web browser.

    I agree with most of what you said, but this paragraph stands out. Why do you not want an "everything and the kitchen sink" application on the mobile? You mentioned three things: Size, battery life, and "brevity" (that last one might be size, though). This is the point I was making. You care about size and battery life because they are currently limiting factors on lots of mobile devices. These are externally imposed hardware limitations. I have long held that the greatest shift in technology would come if we could come up with a battery with radically better energy density. Whether or not this will happen remains to be seen, but the situation is certainly improving all the time. Furthermore, the power consumption is declining, which makes existing batteries last longer. We could reach a day when "everything and the kitchen sink" didn't mean sacrificing significant battery life, and we are very likely to reach a day when application size doesn't matter. After all, I thought I was stylin' when my first computer had a 44MB HD (most people only had 20 or 30 MB drives, at the time).

    The point is that you are deciding on what to do with the phone at least in part because of the limitations imposed by the hardware. Those limitations are what I envision going away.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  34. #634
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I don't see how the problem of teeny/on-screen keyboards and touch-screen pointing as a mouse substitute goes away.

    Note that there are tons of external Bluetooth, USB, etc. peripherals on the market and lots of HDMI adapters and so on. But none of these are very effective to use. Look at Microsoft's laughable "touch cover" concept, worth only "points for trying" and being "somewhat better than the rest."

    There's a reason why laptop docks exist too. Hint: laptops have really low usabiity due to the physical constraints of portability.

    That doesn't mean they're useless. It just means for serious heads-down work they leave a lot to be desired.

  35. #635
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    806

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I agree with most of what you said, but this paragraph stands out. Why do you not want an "everything and the kitchen sink" application on the mobile? You mentioned three things: Size, battery life, and "brevity" (that last one might be size, though). This is the point I was making. You care about size and battery life because they are currently limiting factors on lots of mobile devices. These are externally imposed hardware limitations...

    The point is that you are deciding on what to do with the phone at least in part because of the limitations imposed by the hardware. Those limitations are what I envision going away.
    I guess my assumption is that most improvements in technology are matched by our ability to max out those improvements.

    Take storage, for example. In 10 years, maybe a terabyte of storage will be cheap and commonplace for phones. But I imagine we'll also have 3D photos, holographic videos, and 40-point surround-sound audio that quickly fills that space the same way our meager mp3s, h.264 videos, and JPEGs do now.

    And even if we do eventually reach inflection points where technology outpaces our ability to max it out, I still think there's the question of "why try to make a phone do something a laptop can do better?" I think we've seen this same "everything and the kitchen sink" approach tried elsewhere, for example Smart TVs, and the overwhelming response from consumers seems to be that they're fine with a TV being a TV, and a phone being a phone, and a PC being a PC.

    These technologies ultimately end up sharing certain features, but at least in our lifetimes, they've never really converged. They coexist. But I'm willing to admit that perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough about the benefits of convergence!

    (Also, by "brevity" in mobile software I mostly meant UI. If a program (like Office) does a million different things, I don't know how you expose those million different features on a tiny phone screen, regardless of how advanced the screen or processor or flash storage is. Human hands need a certain amount of space to accomplish things - but maybe the answer is a different paradigm, like voice commands? idk)
    Last edited by Tanner_H; Jul 30th, 2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: grammar is hard
    Check out PhotoDemon, a pro-grade photo editor written completely in VB6. (Full source available at GitHub.)

  36. #636
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    Also, by "brevity" in mobile software I mostly meant UI. If a program (like Office) does a million different things, I don't know how you expose those million different features on a tiny phone screen, regardless of how advanced the screen or processor or flash storage is. Human hands need a certain amount of space to accomplish things - but maybe the answer is a different paradigm, like voice commands? idk
    Ahh, you just haven't seen the successor to the wildly popular Office Ribbon, the 3D holographic Office Cheeseshop. It pops out from the screen and you twist your head around, following virtual corridors of sights and smells, winking and tapping selections with your tongue.

    Name:  Cheeseshop.jpg
Views: 72
Size:  12.3 KB

    Bonus: you'll never share a seat again on a bus or train. For some reason everyone gives you your space.

  37. #637
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    20,720

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Oops!

    Apologies to anyone who looks up "Cheese Shop" in the Urban Dictionary. I plead old guy here, not up on all the hip slang.

  38. #638
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I've been looking at several technologies that when joined might make for a more desktoppy experience for powerhouse cell phones.

    I think wearable eyeglass tech has come a long way and it wouldn't be difficult to provide the equivalent of a large screen monitor in eyeglass form.
    NOT the heads up see through google glass, or virtual world gear but an immersive 2D high res screen experience.

    For input large strides have been made in keyboard/mouse gloves.
    Here is an interesting keyboard simulator.

    Attachment 128771

    The thrust would be to provide an interface to a phone that would look and feel like a desktop.
    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

  39. #639
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    34,323

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    I guess I won't look it up then. The only thing I know about it refering to is Monty Python...which doesn't make sense, either.

    I didn't get into what I thought you meant by brevity, but I figured you meant exactly what you did mean. That really is an issue with small devices, because the interfaces are constrained. However, the rest of what you said put me in mind of a Dilbert comic that ended with the line: The test group preferred the virtual reality to the real thing, and they all starved to death.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  40. #640
    Frenzied Member Gruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Scappoose Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: What if there was a NEW vb6

    Burn the land and boil the sea
    You can't take the sky from me


    ~T

Page 16 of 24 FirstFirst ... 613141516171819 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Featured


Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width