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Thread: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

  1. #81
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Well he does have kind of have a point. I do see far more Android devices and Android like devices than I see Windows PCs, phones and tablets. Where I'm from, everyone is into this WhatsApp craze which means they're gonna need devices that can run that app which in turn drives the adoption of Android phones like nothing I've ever seen. Thankfully though, these phones and tablets can't run a whole business so there is still need for a Windows desktop PCs and servers. If cashiers started going mobile then we're done for. I'm really not looking forward to doing development work on some half-asses IDE that crashes half the time.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  2. #82
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Well he does have kind of have a point. I do see far more Android devices and Android like devices than I see Windows PCs, phones and tablets. Where I'm from, everyone is into this WhatsApp craze which means they're gonna need devices that can run that app which in turn drives the adoption of Android phones like nothing I've ever seen. Thankfully though, these phones and tablets can't run a whole business so there is still need for a Windows desktop PCs and servers. If cashiers started going mobile then we're done for. I'm really not looking forward to doing development work on some half-asses IDE that crashes half the time.
    It depends exactly which point you're referring to. There's no question that personal computing is going mobile. Exactly how far the balance will tip and how quickly an equilibrium will be reached is open to speculation and debate. As with a number of changes in the past, some people will go too far in the new direction and have to take a step back. For instance, my partner was provided with a MacBook Air as her work computer and has found it to be completely useless for what she needs to do. Despite Apple spruiking the fact that Macs can run Windows as a selling point, the fact that it's running Windows XP has only exacerbated the situation. That's not even truly a mobile device so trying to use a tablet would be even worse, unless it was a "proper" PC like a Surface Pro. Businesses particularly will have need of genuine PCs for some time, as will a lot of personal users.

    There's no doubt also that Microsoft is well behind the 8-ball in the mobile market. They were quite happy with desktop Windows and Windows Mobile and so were the general public. That general public didn't know that they wanted or needed anything else so it's not too surprising that Microsoft didn't. They were clearly taken off-guard by the successes of first iOS and then Android. They took some steps to remedy that and, while I don't think they made quite the hash of it that some seem to believe, the result is the same. I'm fairly confident that they have the products to do get them back on par from a technical standpoint. Unfortunately for them, the opposition has technical prowess too, as well as a head start. Convincing enough people of their technical merit is going to be hard enough when there are all sorts of reasons that people don;t even want to hear it. Even if they get that far, convincing people to switch platforms is pretty hard unless you can offer some genuine advantage. With that in mind, they really have no choice but to leverage their power on the desktop in any way they can and to suggest otherwise is naive. They just have to try not to destroy their lead in that area while trying to catch up elsewhere.

  3. #83
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Well I for one hope that MS succeeds in making significant gains into the mobile arena. Windows 8 is a small price to pay if it can hasten such a future. MS might not have done a lot right but development tools is where they really shine. I'd like to continue developing for MS platforms.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  4. #84
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Well I for one hope that MS succeeds in making significant gains into the mobile arena. Windows 8 is a small price to pay if it can hasten such a future. MS might not have done a lot right but development tools is where they really shine. I'd like to continue developing for MS platforms.
    I agree. I've said a few times here and elsewhere explicitly that I'm not a Microsoft fanboy because I wonder whether it may come across a bit that way sometimes. It's just that I have hitched my wagon to them in a number of important ways and therefore their success is my success. Not that I couldn't translate my skills to other areas if the need arises but, like you, I don't really want to. Sure, I'm keen to learn various new things but the longer I can spend the bulk of my professional life immersed in Visual Studio the better. Microsoft taking at least a reasonable slice of the mobile pie is one of the best ways to ensure that that happens.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    I don't know that I'd worry too much about Microsoft going away. They're still posting record profits, despite their various difficulties in the consumer space.

    I think a more likely outcome is that they eventually take the same path as IBM. The consumer space is tough, and as Microsoft makes less and less money in its various consumer endeavors, it might do the same thing IBM did - gradually sell off its various consumer divisions, and focus more and more on hosting, consulting, R&D, b2b-type stuff. They could be just fine doing that.

    @Niya

    If cashiers started going mobile then we're done for. I'm really not looking forward to doing development work on some half-asses IDE that crashes half the time.
    Not sure how it is where you are, but checkout via mobile devices (iPads or iPhones with attached credit card readers) is all the rage where I live. At first, I only use to see them at things like farmer's markets or swap meets, but now they show up at restaurants and other B&M stores a lot.

    Also, not sure if you've ever used Apple's XCode, but it's a fine piece of software. If you have eight minutes to watch a video, this might be enlightening:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l62x8Oq_QP4

    You can jump ahead to 3:30 for the live demo part.

    @jmcilhinney

    For instance, my partner was provided with a MacBook Air as her work computer and has found it to be completely useless for what she needs to do. Despite Apple spruiking the fact that Macs can run Windows as a selling point, the fact that it's running Windows XP has only exacerbated the situation.
    ...Why on earth was a Macbook running XP? I assume it was in a VM, since Bootcamp has only supported Windows 7 since 2009.

    I use a Macbook Pro for my Apple and Windows development work (it dual-boots Windows 8), and I'd genuinely challenge anyone to point out a better Win 8 laptop at the same price point. I searched for months for a Windows laptop that had comparable specs and performance to a Macbook Pro, and couldn't find anything comparable. Apple hardware is hard to beat, and once you get used to OSX, Windows 8 is that much more frustrating by comparison.

    (I say this as someone who genuinely hopes Windows 9 and Windows Phone are successes.)
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    @jmcilhinney



    ...Why on earth was a Macbook running XP? I assume it was in a VM, since Bootcamp has only supported Windows 7 since 2009.

    I use a Macbook Pro for my Apple and Windows development work (it dual-boots Windows 8), and I'd genuinely challenge anyone to point out a better Win 8 laptop at the same price point. I searched for months for a Windows laptop that had comparable specs and performance to a Macbook Pro, and couldn't find anything comparable. Apple hardware is hard to beat, and once you get used to OSX, Windows 8 is that much more frustrating by comparison.

    (I say this as someone who genuinely hopes Windows 9 and Windows Phone are successes.)
    I wasn't trying to make a point about Macs. I was trying to make the point that some businesses and people will think that they can get away with a device that promotes mobility, only to find that it's just too under-powered to do what they need to do.

    As for why and how it was running XP, I don't know all the details but I can tell you that it definitely was not in a VM. Some idiot responsible for procurement obviously let himself be hoodwinked by an Apple sales person. If they were using MacBook Pros then there would probably be no issue because they are "proper" computers. A MacBook Air might be easy to carry around but it's useless for the sort of work it's being used for in this case and should never have been considered in an environment where Windows XP was the SOE.

  7. #87
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    If cashiers started going mobile then we're done for.
    At restaurants the wine list comes on a tablet. At the Apple Store in NYC they check you out on a mobile device (probably not Android )...

    At the local appliance store I bought an air conditioner all on a mobile device.

    Even the big stores like Sears (in the US) use mobile devices on the sales floor.

    And they get to ask you for your EMAIL for a receipt - that's a hook they wanted anyway.

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  8. #88
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    I'm creating an Android app for local health departments to do INSPECTIONS at Food Establishments.

    They used to do this on paper - multi part form - tear off a copy for the restaurant owner. Then they would go back to the office and sit at an XP machine and enter the info from the form copy they kept (into an old FOXPRO app - we are porting that to MS SQL).

    Now they will enter this inspection data in the FIELD - at the restaurant - on a 7 inch Samsung tablet. Android app talks to the same web methods - using AJAX/Json - that my web app talks to. Written in VB.Net - hosted by IIS.

    Have a battery operated portable printer to print forms for the restaurant owners - if they don't want to just accept the email copy we can generate from the backend web methods.

    They are still going to go back to their XP machines - and get into a browser - and visit the inside-the-office web app that talks to this same database. They will see already entered inspection data - and can run all the bells and whistles they need at their desk. Output to EXCEL, graphing - reporting - whatever.

    At the moment MS is my backend. At the moment my customers use MS for their front end machines. My front end code - desk top version anyway - is O/S agnostic.

    My mobile version is O/S specific - because there is no O/S agnostic mobile world. Even Pocket PC's from 6 years ago were a blip on the timeline of mobile advancement.
    Last edited by szlamany; Aug 27th, 2014 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    At the moment MS is my backend. At the moment my customers use MS for their front end machines. My front end code - desk top version anyway - is O/S agnostic.

    My mobile version is O/S specific - because there is no O/S agnostic mobile world. Even Pocket PC's from 6 years ago were a blip on the timeline of mobile advancement.
    Very interesting to hear your experience, szlamany. Thanks for sharing. Mine is very similar.

    My main job these days is interaction design work for medical offices, and the modern medical office is pretty much what you describe - MS backend (typically XP, sometimes Win 7), while the doctors themselves do everything on an iPad. Different offices will connect the two via different means, but the "mobile front-end, MS backend" setup is pretty standard.

    Of course, this typifies Microsoft's toughest issue. 90+% of consumers (and businesses) can accomplish what they need with an XP-era PC. Some industries will always need the latest and greatest hardware, but that's the exception more than the rule.

    What's interesting is to see how doctors feel about this setup. They generally love their iPads, while loathing their XP PCs. It's not a fair comparison at all - one is brand-new, the other is a decade old - but over time, it colors their opinion of Microsoft vs Apple. Add the public perception of Windows 8 to the mix, and even though these doctors and their office workers have no first-hand experience with Windows 8, a lot of them will openly prefer Apple, despite never owning any Apple device besides an iPad or iPhone.

    That perception is going to be tough for Microsoft to combat.

    @jmcilhinney - thanks for clarifying. I'd say most people could be very happy with the performance of a 2014 Macbook Air, despite them being very overpriced, but certainly there are niches that need more power than what they offer. What's most silly is that a Macbook Pro has almost identical battery life to an Air, despite being way more powerful. (And more expensive, obviously - but if the company is paying for it, they should know these things!)
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I agree. I've said a few times here and elsewhere explicitly that I'm not a Microsoft fanboy because I wonder whether it may come across a bit that way sometimes. It's just that I have hitched my wagon to them in a number of important ways and therefore their success is my success. Not that I couldn't translate my skills to other areas if the need arises but, like you, I don't really want to. Sure, I'm keen to learn various new things but the longer I can spend the bulk of my professional life immersed in Visual Studio the better. Microsoft taking at least a reasonable slice of the mobile pie is one of the best ways to ensure that that happens.
    I think it is safe to say most of us that have not moved on to other technologies have a horse in the race. VS is a great IDE (compared to something like Eclipse). I think the focus for MS in VS should be allowing you to write native apps for other mobile OS across the board rather than just "Web-Enabled" apps and javascript. Mono has proved this can be reasonably done. Implement this and charge a subscription for it. VS should be more like a one-stop shop for your developer needs rather than "buy into our technology because we think its better, promise"

    Microsoft will never have a reasonable slice of the mobile market in their current business model. I don't care how much of the "desktop" they try to leverage, they need to offer something the competition doesnt (and Microsoft Office and XBOX Live doesnt cut it). The alternatives at this point offer way more, for little-to-no cost. Huawei just announced they will stop making Windows Phones because they lost money for 2 years in a row and there isn't a lot of interest.

    A Tanner said, the perception of Microsoft in the consumer market is not that great. I always hear about how everyone loves their iphones and ipads, but I never hear someone say "wow Windows 8 just makes my life so much easier!". People are sold on the cup-holders rather than the horsepower.
    Last edited by jayinthe813; Aug 27th, 2014 at 11:00 AM.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    I think it is safe to say most of us that have not moved on to other technologies have a horse in the race. VS is a great IDE (compared to something like Eclipse). I think the focus for MS in VS should be allowing you to write native apps for other mobile OS across the board rather than just "Web-Enabled" apps and javascript.
    As crazy as it sounds, this might actually be happening sooner rather than later:

    Microsoft wants Visual Studio to be your one-stop cross-platform dev shop
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    When I first got this job to make an Android app work with my MS SQL backend database I initially though "what can I do in VS". I did pocket PC stuff in the past - VS had nice emulators and could also run to the physical device for testing.

    VS offered nothing good for Android.

    This link you just gave - Unity? Who knows maybe they do work up an Android in VS good - I would be surprised.

    I was forced to use Eclipse - it's a big tool - very rough in lots of places. But it's just a debugger - setting a break and looking at variables - it's easy enough to get by.

    The bigger problem with Android apps is the lack of an industry standard set of libraries. I still cannot get a clean decode of JSON strings coming in from IIS - have to hand manipulate the data myself.

    What people complain about with .Net and VS - that MS .Net framework library. I wish I could find that for Android!

    The next problem is the Java world. Can't even compare two strings without using a .Equals or .EqualsIgnoreCase method. Of course once you realize why you need this it's all good. Things changes - things get more complicated.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Eclipse is the worst. I feel genuinely sad for people who use that as their only IDE. As I once heard someone say, "comparing Eclipse to Visual Studio is like comparing Notepad to Microsoft Word." Actually, I think I'd rather use Notepad than Eclipse and just compile everything by hand from the command line. (That's not a joke.)

    Microsoft seems to slowly be coming around on the cross-platform stuff. Besides just the Visual Studio link above, Office for iPad is a pretty nice product. I'm curious to see if they keep going down this road.
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    As crazy as it sounds, this might actually be happening sooner rather than later:

    Microsoft wants Visual Studio to be your one-stop cross-platform dev shop
    Unity is just a game engine. It seems to be like a cross-platform replacement for XNA. In my mind, this article reads "Use unity for all you game needs, use HTML5 for your applications". I dont want HTML5 apps, I want to write apps in VB that compile across the board into native apps. Perhaps I am asking for a bit much.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Well yeah, Unity is just a game engine, but as the article points out, it's the trend that's interesting. To quote it:

    What's notable here isn't the purchase per se, but what Microsoft is doing with Visual Studio. Since last year, Redmond has been cross-promoting Xamarin, the development environment that lets developers write apps for Android, iOS, OS X, Windows Store, Windows Phone, and Windows Desktop. The company is also directly integrating Cordova support into Visual Studio, to allow developers to write HTML5-based applications that target iOS, Android, Windows Store, and Windows Phone.

    Unity has support for Windows, Windows Phone, Windows Store, iOS, Android, OS X, Linux, BlackBerry, and even the Web with a plugin. It also supports consoles, with Xbox 360, Xbox One, PlayStation 3, PlayStation 4, Wii and Wii U all supported.

    With these purchases, integrations, and collaborations, Microsoft is making Visual Studio the development platform for mobile and multi-platform developers. It's simultaneously trying to make Azure the cloud platform for mobile and multi-platform developers, with toolkits and integrations for any platform.

    Microsoft wants developers using its tools and on its platforms, and if that means supporting cross-platform development and deployment, that's a price the company is willing to pay. One wonders how far the company will take it: will we see gcc or LLVM support next?
    The biggest problem with writing apps in VB that compile across the board into native apps is that Microsoft would need to develop some kind of technique for converting all WAPI functions to corresponding OSX/Android/whatever functions. I think it's safe to say that's never gonna happen. (It'd take decades, not to mention all the copyright/patent issues involved.)

    But Microsoft is doing what they can to support some level of cross-platform development, to their credit.
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_H View Post
    Well yeah, Unity is just a game engine, but as the article points out, it's the trend that's interesting. To quote it:



    The biggest problem with writing apps in VB that compile across the board into native apps is that Microsoft would need to develop some kind of technique for converting all WAPI functions to corresponding OSX/Android/whatever functions. I think it's safe to say that's never gonna happen. (It'd take decades, not to mention all the copyright/patent issues involved.)

    But Microsoft is doing what they can to support some level of cross-platform development, to their credit.
    Realistically speaking, Xamarin/Mono isnt that "great" in its current form. It also costs money to develop using their software inside VS. I guess this is why MS is promoting HTML5 first. I do not have much experience with HTML5 but I do not believe it has the power or flexability of native apps.

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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    HTML5 is still doing it in a browser - very different experience compared to WINFORM DESKTOP world.

    My WEB APP uses the jQuery JavaScript library and lots of freeware hope-it-works-type libraries. Goal is to get as close to WINFORM DESKTOP like in as many areas as possible.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    I think I'm misunderstood.

    The failure of Microsoft isn't in anyone's interest. I'll go further and say the failure of Windows (which Microsoft could probably adapt to and still survive) isn't in anyone's interest. Certainly not mine... though I suppose to be honest there would be some vendors and users who would profit from a "no more Windows" world.

    But I think we can discount those folks. They aren't members here anyway.

    What I'd like to see is for Microsoft to stop doing things that damage Windows. Forget mobile, that's a lost cause already.


    As for Android, my interest in it comes from (a.) a far more open deployment story than Microsoft's WindowsRT/Metro or Apple's iOS, (b.) a huge success story and user base to develop for, but mostly (c.) my existing clients move more computing there each day - and I don't just mean "mobile apps."

    Android actually makes a pretty good desktop client for typical LOB CRUD applications.

    Where it is weak today is as a "content creation" and "development" platform. However if trends continue and Microsoft keeps shooting Windows in the head over and over I hope things change for Android. All it really lacks is a broad and deep set of tools for those traditional desktop-heavy activities.

    I really don't like doing development and documentation on any of the Linux distros my clients are using. Mac might be a more practical choice there but I'd love to get focused on a single platform again.

    If that's Android long term, fine. If it's a revitalized Windows, so much the better.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayinthe813 View Post
    Realistically speaking, Xamarin/Mono isnt that "great" in its current form.
    Understatement!

    Even die-hards with a heavy investment in .Net skills are doing a lot of teeth-gnashing trying to get benefit out of it.

    The resulting applications have a lot of negatives. For one their bloated footprint (each app carries the CLR and its working subset of the Framework along). For another sad performance (not as fast as the AOT-compiled code iOS and now Android native apps run). And of course no access to certain platform features.

    Even more of a stranger in a strange land than Java or .Net on Windows!

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    The bigger problem with Android apps is the lack of an industry standard set of libraries. I still cannot get a clean decode of JSON strings coming in from IIS - have to hand manipulate the data myself.
    Well org.json is part of the platform and was from the beginning. That's what most people use.

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    HTML5 is still doing it in a browser - very different experience compared to WINFORM DESKTOP world.

    My WEB APP uses the jQuery JavaScript library and lots of freeware hope-it-works-type libraries. Goal is to get as close to WINFORM DESKTOP like in as many areas as possible.
    True cross-platform development has been the holy grail of developers since computers were first invented. The closest thing we have is web technologies, but despite ongoing improvements in performance and power, everyone knows these are still a long ways from native apps. (Depending on what you're doing, I suppose.)

    As far as cross-platform tools that produce native code, QT is probably your best bet. But like any toolkit, it comes with a large stack of caveats, and you obviously have to learn how to use their libraries. Also you should ideally be a C++ developer. (They have other plugins, but no languages are as well-supported as C++.)

    I think it's unrealistic to expect Microsoft - or Apple or Google, for that matter - to invest energy in a full, novel, cross-platform development tool. That's not in any of these company's best interests, as they all have ecosystems to protect.

    But that doesn't mean they can't make it slightly easier for cross-platform developers. To MS's credit, they seem to be realizing that, and even investing some resources toward it. (Whether they're doing it because they are just nice guys, or because they are hemorrhaging developers to other platforms, remains up for debate... )
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Understatement!

    Even die-hards with a heavy investment in .Net skills are doing a lot of teeth-gnashing trying to get benefit out of it.

    The resulting applications have a lot of negatives. For one their bloated footprint (each app carries the CLR and its working subset of the Framework along). For another sad performance (not as fast as the AOT-compiled code iOS and now Android native apps run). And of course no access to certain platform features.

    Even more of a stranger in a strange land than Java or .Net on Windows!
    After fooling around with Xamarin.Android, it's as if the whole purpose is just to skirt around using Java syntax, when after looking at all the inner-workings its probably easier just to use Java. The toughest part is learning how to program the UI and the UI is not portable across the board. Its definitely nothing like WinForms in C#, thats for sure.

  23. #103
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  24. #104
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    But more is starting to come out about "Windows 9" a.k.a. Threshold.
    Apparent, Microsoft are going to skip 9 and go straight 10.


    Microsoft has offered its first glimpse of its Windows 10 software that it hopes delivers a winning formula for powering tablets and smartphones, along with laptops and desktop computers.

    Read more here.
    What I do not get is why skip a number it is NOT the number that makes the product but rather the features and whether or not they actually work.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  25. #105
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwalker83 View Post
    What I do not get is why skip a number it is NOT the number that makes the product but rather the features and whether or not they actually work.
    True, but after all the bad feeling surrounding Windows 8, Microsoft need to do everything they can to get people interested and hopefully excited about Windows again in order to then let the features do the talking. If they feel that people are more likely to want to try Windows 10 than Windows 9 then that's reason enough I guess. I'm not sure what the logic is but maybe 10 conveys a new beginning more than 9 does. I would use it regardless but then I'm not the market segment that they're trying to win back.

    It does sound like it will do a good job of addressing the issues that people had with Windows 8.x as well as adding some new and useful features too. Ignoring the new features for a moment, I'd tend to agree with what a number of people are saying in that it's more like the incremental transition from Windows 7 to a more touch-centric world that they should have gone with for Windows 8 in the first place. While I do take issue with many of the specific criticisms that individuals make of Windows 8.x, the fact that a large portion of the market don't like it, whether fairly or not, speaks for itself. They just tried to push people too far out of their comfort zone too quickly. I can see why they did so but there's no doubt that it alienated many users. If Windows 10 can win back those users then, for a big, rich company like Microsoft, there's no real harm done.

    In fact, they may still benefit in two ways. First, because Windows 8 was considered to be bad, Windows 10 may appear better than it otherwise would simply by the favourable comparison. Second, if they had waited longer to push people towards Windows mobile devices then they may have ended up even further behind in that space. With a unified experience across all devices with Windows 10, there's every possibility that Microsoft can still mount a serious challenge in the mobile market. The going will still be tough, because Apple and Google both have very good products, but there's definitely reason to be optimistic. Some Apple and Google fanboys may dismiss Windows Phone as a bad product but it's not and you'd expect Windows 10 on phones and tablets to be better again. With a good product in place, it's just a matter of whether they can entice enough new users to attract more developers and enough new developers to attract more new users.

  26. #106
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    What I do not get is why skip a number
    Surely the reason's obvious. Everyone knows that every every other MS operating system is a flop, so they've just decided not to bother releasing every other one.

    Mind you, since 7 was a success and 8 was a flop they've aparently decided to shelve the successes. Now that is an odd decision.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

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  27. #107
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Surely the reason's obvious. Everyone knows that every every other MS operating system is a flop, so they've just decided not to bother releasing every other one.
    Yes, however, whether it is called Windows 9 or Windows 10 it would still be a flop.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  28. #108
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwalker83 View Post
    Yes, however, whether it is called Windows 9 or Windows 10 it would still be a flop.
    Why's that exactly?

  29. #109
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    No, by that logic, the odd numbers should be successes while the even numbers should be flops.

    (this one should go to eleven)
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  30. #110
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Why's that exactly?
    Well, the same features will be in it for one thing! Also, I am not saying it Will literally be a flop just that if it were the name change would mean nothing.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  31. #111
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwalker83 View Post
    Well, the same features will be in it for one thing! Also, I am not saying it Will literally be a flop just that if it were the name change would mean nothing.
    As a first look (mind you i really did not bother for an extensive look) they are out of their minds. They don't really know what to do. They have tried to incorporate W7 back again but keep the W8 features so they don't have to admit the w8 failure. I think their ego will again make a flop - flop - floppy A:
    Mobile is also a "nothing" Nokia L23234X with the new Windows "nothing" interface, get it now!
    Oh boy, i like it when i am right! I also depend on MS products but unlike most of you i prefer that MS finally fail and die, should just leave us alone with their idiotic ideas on W8 and Metro and mobile. If they don't got it anymore they can switch on making refrigerators.
    On another note, as good as some people are in programming they are poor at predicting if a product is destine to fail or not. Just saying, and i actually feel bad for people that bought MS mobiles because sooner or later it will be the end as (I've read an article but can't find that) Microsoft is thinking of dropping the whole thing as it just don't go anywhere.
    Slow as hell.

  32. #112
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Although, there are certain members here on vbforums that will kick up a stink if Windows 10 does NOT support VB6.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  33. #113
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    sooner or later it will be the end as (I've read an article but can't find that) Microsoft is thinking of dropping the whole thing as it just don't go anywhere.
    Well if that isn't cast iron proof of you being right them I don't know what is.

  34. #114
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    I just installed Windows 10 Technical Preview today (01-OCt-2014) on VmWare Desktop.
    Vb6 + SP6 installed easier than Win7/Win8 with no tricks necessary other than "Run As Administrator".
    Initial testing shows that Vb6 runs OK without any problems.

  35. #115
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Why did MS go straight to Windows 10 as a version number?

    well i think George Carlin said it best about the number 10 (in a slightly different context)

    "Why ten? Why not nine, or eleven? I'll tell you why. Because ten sounds important. Ten sounds official. They knew if they tried eleven, people wouldn't take them seriously. People would say, "What're you kiddin' me?" ...

    "But ten! Ten sounds important. Ten is the basis for the decimal system; it's a decade. It's a psychologically satisfying number: the top ten; the ten most wanted; the ten best-dressed."
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  36. #116
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    I was making a reference to Spinal Tap, myself.

    @Sapator: As long as mobile is a BIG deal, MS will ALWAYS be trying to get that market. As for them failing....I disliked the days when you chose your software based on the platform you had. There were some great programs that came out for Apple (only), or Amiga (only), or PC (only), or OS/2 (only...well, maybe there was nothing ever specific to OS/2). If you had one of the others...sucked to be you. I have no desire to go back to the bad old days.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  37. #117
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Why did MS go straight to Windows 10 as a version number?

    well i think George Carlin said it best about the number 10 (in a slightly different context)
    Not sure if this is true, but this article, says it is because too many people had code looking for something like

    os.StartsWith("Windows 9"), to catch Windows 95 and 98.

  38. #118
    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    os.StartsWith("Windows 9"), to catch Windows 95 and 98.
    .NET code seven years before .NET was around.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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  39. #119
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    @Sapator: As long as mobile is a BIG deal, MS will ALWAYS be trying to get that market. As for them failing....I disliked the days when you chose your software based on the platform you had. There were some great programs that came out for Apple (only), or Amiga (only), or PC (only), or OS/2 (only...well, maybe there was nothing ever specific to OS/2). If you had one of the others...sucked to be you. I have no desire to go back to the bad old days.
    Exactly. The suggestions by some that Microsoft should or are giving up on the mobile market are laughable. They may never become a major player but they have the cash reserves to play the long game. Even if they never overtake Apple and Google, they will still do well to take third place in what is going to be a huge market. Coming third is not necessarily failure.

    Also, the suggestion that they have done mobile badly is also simply not true. There are those who genuinely don't like the Modern UI but then you can find people who dislike anything you care to mention. Also, I think that many who claim not to like it do so on principle more than practicality. Some have never actually used a Modern UI on a touch device, or not for any length of time, and have simply gone by bad reports they've read. There are also those with a grudge against Microsoft who are determined to hate whatever they do. If Microsoft had copied iOS and/or Android in their touch UI then they'd have been criticised for that too.

    The simple fact is that the Modern UI is excellent for touch-based devices. I have a Windows Phone and a Windows 8.1 hybrid and the UI works well on both. Is it great for non-touch devices? It's certainly not an improvement, although it's hardly the detriment that some claim. Is it better than iOS or Android? In some ways it is, but overall I would say that it is current their equal at best.

    There's no reason that Micropsoft shouldn't be successful in the mobile arena based purely on the tech. The issue will be user perception. Microsoft may have simply given Apple and Google too much of a head start, to the point where they would have to produce a noticeably superior product in order to catch up. Doing that will be very difficult because iOS and Android are both very good products. Microsoft's best chance of converting users to its mobile platform is to convince them that they will benefit from a unified experience across all their devices and leveraging their existing user base on the PC to do so. Their first attempt to do that with Windows 8 has failed. If they can address the issues that people have with Windows 8 in Windows 10 and create a genuinely unified and enjoyable experience across all devices with one Windows for all, they may be able to do that. Making up the lost ground is still going to be slow though, even if that does happen, but if they can see themselves moving in the right direction that will be enough to keep them dedicated to the task.

  40. #120

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    Re: Will Microsoft carry you over the Threshold?

    Microsoft’s CEO doesn’t care about Windows Phone’s 3.4 percent market share

    Microsoft’s CEO Satya Nadella doesn’t really care about Windows Phone’s humble market share. Wait, what? How can this be? There’s a very good reason, actually. Nadella spoke to the Seattle Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce this week, and was asked how the company intended to build the mobile OS into a true contender. In essence, his reply revealed the company is more interested in developing a mobile ecosystem for now, than it is in making Windows Phone a world leader.
    The tablet story is, if anything, far weaker.

    And the truth is:

    According to Strategy Analytics most recent data, Windows Phone has a mere 2.7 percent global market share, while ComScore puts the U.S. share at just 3.4 percent. Nadella may not be focused on market share, but we’d imagine those numbers aren’t met with many smiles at Microsoft headquarters.
    Nobody is creating applications for Microsoft's mobile platforms. Nobody. Stick a fork in it, it's cooked.

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