Results 1 to 40 of 40

Thread: Java v VB

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    0

    Java v VB

    Hi
    all i could do with some advise i have never done programming and wanting to learn but i hear VB is dying over the years and been told i should start with java any advise appreciated. I have had a look around also and alot are saying go for VB and the other half are saying Java.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    The people who are sold on Java are saying that others are fading out. The people who are sold on VB will tell you that VB is not going anywhere. Nobody knows the true future, so everybody is saying whatever they want to be true in the future.

    The simple fact is this: Every language comes and goes. The industry is constantly changing and adaptation is always going to be necessary. Back in the 80s, people were seeing the end of COBOL (though it's still around in some places). They had C to go to, and a budding new language in C++. In the 90s, COBOL was dead, VB4-6 were great languages to start out in. C++ became an ANSI standard language. C started into it's second round of ANSI standardization (revising/updating the original standard). Java showed up with the promise of being able to write code one time and have it run on multiple platforms...which meant MS, Apple, or UNIX, though UNIX was rare and Apple suffered a near-fatal meltdown over the collapse of OS8. By the end of the 90s, the standards for C/C++ were out, Java was still being promised to be able to write once, run anywhere (though it had yet to live up to that promise), Apple was being reborn with OS-9 (based on a UNIX kernel), Linux was showing up.

    By 2002, MS switched from VB6 to VB.NET causing howls of protest that still echo to this day. In fact, you can find long threads both here and in General Developer from people trying to get people to sign a petition trying to force MS to bring back VB6 (though not as VB6, but as something newer in ways that nobody can agree on). C/C++ have largely been relegated to building device drivers, embedded systems, and cutting edge graphics. Hand-optimized, inlined ASM as part of C/C++ programs has diminished because CPUs became too complex to easily time instructions and compilers improved to the point where they generally do as well, or better, than people do at optimizing ASM. Folks have largely given up on the idea that Java can write programs that run everywhere. Apple has switched to Intel. C# is a rapidly growing language. JavaScript is probably outpacing Java.

    By now, the .NET that was released in 2002 is so old that nobody uses it anymore. It's almost a different language, which doesn't always upgrade all that well. People still complain about VB6 going away. Java still hasn't lived up to its initial promise, but is still kicking along. Other languages have taken a bigger chunk of various programming spaces. C/C++ still have their niche in high performance/low footprint (but not so easy to develop) apps. Apple is better known for their mobile devices which don't run the same OS as their desktops and laptops. Mobile is increasing for everyone. MS is trying to get an OS that runs on mobile as well as desktop.

    At some point in the future, .NET will probably go away because it isn't ANSI standard. Java will probably go away because there is so little need for it. Somebody will write a better replacement for Javascript, or a killer IDE for Android, either or both of which may shift the landscape radically. C/C++ will still have their niche. Apple will have Steve Jobs apparently stuffed and mounted in a glass walled booth where they will claim that he is sending them messages from beyond the grave...though in reality it is just a wax replica because they were too late in realizing the value he had, but unlike last time, they can't hire him back from NeXT.

    Nobody knows what the future holds. VB.NET will eventually die out, as well every other language. When will that happen? Nobody can say. VB6 is still hanging on even though the last version came out in 1998 and official support ended in 2006. COBOL can still be found in places, too. There are also a fair number of also rans like Delphi, which is based on Pascal and may be worth a look.

    If I was going to learn a new language today, I'd probably start with C#. Knowing the C syntax would make other languages more familiar, because Java, JavaScript, C, C#, C++, and others are all in the C family of syntaxes, yet there are probably more jobs in C# than the rest. Having said that, I feel that VB.NET is a superior language.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  3. #3

    Thread Starter
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    0

    Re: Java v VB

    great advise thank you so much think i am going to start learning VB excel as i do alot of my work in excel also

  4. #4
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,834

    Re: Java v VB

    In the 90s, COBOL was dead
    Whoa...hardly. Right up until after the Y2K change you couldn't find enough mainframe COBOL programmers to make all the COBOL programs compliant. Then those jobs started going to India and Brazil via outsourcing. It is still out there in some of the really big shops.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  5. #5
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    You can also sort of combine the two.

    Over the years there have been several Basic languages that compile to Java bytecode, run on a JVM, and make use of Java libraries. One of these is currently under development (still in beta testing and evolving) and is free: B4J. Most of the others that I'm aware of have either fallen away or ceased development before ever leaving beta stage.

    One thing they're good at is serving as a bridge from Basic to Java, i.e. as a learning tool.

    The advantage of Java (or Basic that compiles to Java bytecode) is far more portability than most other serious programming languages.


    VBA isn't really much like VB.Net anyway, so I wouldn't even consider VBA macro experience a reason to choose any fully compiled programming language besides VB6. Of course VB6 is hard to come by these days and is very late in its lifecycle so it isn't an appropriate choice for a newcomer.


    VB.Net isn't dead though a great deal of the traditional .Net ecosystem is now legacy: Does .NET Have A Future?

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Just as a disclaimer: Dilettante is our favorite anti-.NET member. He is always looking for signs that .NET is doomed.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  7. #7
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    You don't have to go far, the signs are all around us!

    The Future Of Microsoft .NET: New Options, New Choices, New Risks.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    That doesn't actually say that .NET is ending, it just says that the MS platforms are changing without giving any clear advice on the subject.

    However, I was really intrigued by the comments. Two comments, not very close in time, different authors, yet identical text. It's like they were posted by the lamest bot ever written.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  9. #9
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,900

    Re: Java v VB

    i am going to start learning VB excel
    Actually that's probably not the best choice. Dilitante did aver to the fact that VBA is not VB.Net but if you're brand new to programming you might not really understand what that means. The language used for programming macros in excel is VBA and it's substantially different from VB as we know it today. It's certainly a useful tool to have in your belt but it's not likely to se you up for a career as a developer if that's what you're after. Outside of Office Macros it's largely a dead language.

    I would recommend Java if you like the idea of an open source community. There's good and bad to that. It tends to mean documentation can be harder to come by, it can feel like the language lacks consistency of approach (because different people bring their own approach to the different bits they write) and you can find yourself spending an awful lot of time struggling with other peoples components and frameworks to get them to tie up with your own. On the other hand people are always releasing always new toys to play, there's lots of open source projects to get involved in and it's generally a much better place to "make your mark".

    I would recommend VB or C# if you prefer the idea of a more closed but stable environment. Ructions about VB6 apart, MS have always been sticklers for backwards compatibility, there's a wealth of documentation out there (not least MSDN), the approach is much more consistent and the "bits" that make up the language tend to integrate pretty seamlessly. On the downside, its harder for your star to shine and you don't get the same range of third party libraries and frameworks.

    C and C++ I would only recommend if you're the sort of bloke who like playing with circuit boards. Not because it has any particular attachment to electronics but rather because I think both reward the same sort of slightly pedantic, detail driven mind set. You can do amazing things with it very succinctly but you'd better get every minutiae right or it'll kick you in the teeth without warning. If you are the sort of person who gets off on that then it's definitely your lingo of choice because you'll be able to call yourself a specialist and ask for more money.

    Java is more portable but I don't think and language (java included) is really portable enough to really make that a deciding factor. The truth is that whatever you choose is going to need rewriting for different platforms unless you go for some form of web development in which case it'll need rewriting for every browser.

    And I equally wouldn't try to make the choice based on what might happen in the future. As Shaggy said, none of us know what's coming next... except Dilittante who apparently does but some of us remain unconviced by his arguments Java, C/C++, VB or C# have all got enough legs under them to keep them around for a decade or so. They'll all evolve a bit as time goes on.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Feb 25th, 2014 at 03:27 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  10. #10
    College Grad!!! Jacob Roman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Miami Beach, FL
    Posts
    5,339

    Re: Java v VB

    VB7 is coming back baby!

    Thats whats missing now and days. A true BASIC language for people to learn to get the feel for coding before jumping into tougher languages such as java, C++, and even any of the .NET languages such as VB.NET and C#. Sure you can learn from VB6, but we still need a VB7 to fill the void. Its why the war between VB.Net and VB6 continue to this day. Its 2014 for crying out loud and theres still petitions...

  11. #11
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,900

    Re: Java v VB

    VB7 is coming back baby!
    JR, I came across your VB7 thread in the project communication area off the back of the whole "bring back Classic VB" discussions that happened recently. Did anything ever happen with that or did it just fizzle out? From the thread it looks like there was a lot of initial noise then Schmidt took over and then... nothing. The reason I ask is that I think you're probably one of the few folks around who would have a fighting chance of succeeding, given enough time and resource. I imagine that latter bit's a problem but Id be curious to know how you got on.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    It can't be VB7, though, because that name was already used.

    A year or so back I went looking for a TRS-80 fan club. I wasn't sure that such a thing would exist, considering that the hardware was dicontinued over two decades back...and it sucked even then. There's a fan club for everything, though. There's even a market for TRS-80 hardware, and new things that can be added to a TRS-80.

    Nothing ever dies in computers, it just becomes a classic, then nostalgia, then a museum piece.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #13
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    imo - the tool is chosen after the job is scoped out. You can create EXCEL files from either VB or C# .Net - if the goal is create spreadsheets and you want to do more than just VBA macros I would suggest a .Net language. I've never worked in VBA so I'm not really sure where it becomes useful in EXCEL...

    And I kind of agree with Shaggy in that C# syntax flows nicely into several other languages making if a good choice. I'm a VB person from the old days, but at this point I do as much C# and VB (both .Net).

    If the goal is to create interactive web pages then I would suggest learning JavaScript. I only really started doing C# after I got dragged into JavaScript - it was not a choice I would have made over VB had I not done so much JS coding...

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Javascript is change waiting to happen. It's a stupid language that exists because nobody has come up with a good replacement...yet. It will happen, though.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  15. #15
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    Where have you found info that backs that up? I'm curious as I've invested a ton of my future (and my clients) in that path at this point ...

    I can't imagine the web browser boys being able to cooperate on the creation of anything new...

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  16. #16
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB


    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  17. #17
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    34,532

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    It can't be VB7, though, because that name was already used.
    VB-anything can't be used... VB is copyright by MS... you'd have to pick a new moniker for it... NexGen-B... or B-NexGen or... BShaggy... but in BShaggy all objects would have to inherit from Vase(Of Fish) and have the look of a Pineapple ... so that may be even more confusing.

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Where have you found info that backs that up? I'm curious as I've invested a ton of my future (and my clients) in that path at this point ...

    I can't imagine the web browser boys being able to cooperate on the creation of anything new...
    I have nothing to back it up other than the observation that languages tend to evolve over time. Javascript is a scripting language without typing. That leads to some inefficiencies and strikes me as being more error prone. I would expect to see a new language that is more robustly typed and has a safer IDE. Something like that does exist in TypeScript, which is a strongly-typed variant that results in pure Javascript. Still, that's just a nod in the direction I was suggesting, which is that the language will become more robust, or will be replaced by something more robust....except that I totally agree with your final sentiment. An inability of the browser boys to cooporate on the creation of anything seems to be a larger impediment to the web than anything else. HTML 5 took some time to roll out, and will take more time to be fully implemented. Then will come HTML 6.

    We are clearly progressing, it just takes time. I feel that javascript is an early step on a long road.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  19. #19
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    Trust me - I know the pain of JS. It's got no decimal or money data types and I'm creating financial apps! I had to write my own ParseMoney functions to turn "money strings" into "integers-with-assumed-decimal-points" so I could avoid the pitfalls of floating point math. JS does need to evolve. Having written an entire application with it has made me appreciate some of the freedom and power it has...

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  20. #20
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    There are a few things out there to translate other languages into JavaScript too. Some try to contrive "strong typing" and add language constructs, others just try to mask some of the nastier JavaScript warts.

    I can think of a few: TypeScript, Dart, and CoffeeScript. I'm sure there are others as well. Then there are things like asm.js that I'm less sure are serious contenders.

  21. #21
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    Microsoft has even begun to embrace Java, at least minimally (VS 2013 Online):

    Build your Eclipse projects

  22. #22
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,527

    Re: Java v VB

    I am still looking for developers to join my CSS only Operation System Movement. techgnome is lead of the Creative Team.

  23. #23
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    What happened to the one to turn MS Paint into a Linux replacement?

  24. #24
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,527

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    What happened to the one to turn MS Paint into a Linux replacement?
    I am not familiar with that project, however it sounds like a genius idea. Are they using SandPaperTM or JR's new PhysX?

  25. #25
    College Grad!!! Jacob Roman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Miami Beach, FL
    Posts
    5,339

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Microsoft has even begun to embrace Java, at least minimally (VS 2013 Online):

    Build your Eclipse projects
    I thought they did that when they created VB.Net, literally removing the BASIC syntax and slowely making it look more and more like java. Its not even BASIC anymore.

  26. #26
    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    South of the Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    2,256

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Javascript is change waiting to happen. It's a stupid language that exists because nobody has come up with a good replacement...yet. It will happen, though.
    Roger that! I'm currently on the JavaScript kick - you can do some nice things, if you add something like JQuery - in the browser. But it is a pain in the back side to get anything done quickly and and functional (and stable!). There does need to be a stable, function and strict client-side engine which interacts cleanly with server-side systems. I think we will be stuck with JavaScript for quite some time, no mater how many 'plugin-du-jour.js' someone comes up with.

    I do think the best solution for JavaScript is a more manageable editor - the ability to have intellisense which makes actual sense (I can't remember every stinking JQuery command - my brain is currently full). The ability to manage JavaScript 'objects' across multiple files - essentially just what Visual Studio does for .NET

    Over the decade(s) I've found Java is junk. It really is horrible. I truly wish it would go away. If 90% of your target audience is using Windows, then create a windows app. It looks better, functions better, is easier to develop, and a much greater support 'network' if you get stuck on any aspect.
    "Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt.
    "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk.
    "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."

  27. #27
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    @sjwhitely

    jQuery is so cool - I really like the interactive and fluid HTML that is can manipulate. And takes away all that low-level DOM work you would have to do without it.

    What version of jQuery do you use? I got stuck on 1.7 and I'm kind of afraid to upgrade to the latest for fear of what it might break.

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  28. #28
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,900

    Re: Java v VB

    If 90% of your target audience is using Windows, then create a windows app
    Wise words. Don't develop for the edge case. It might feed your ego but it won't feed your wallet.

    I got stuck on 1.7 and I'm kind of afraid to upgrade to the latest for fear of what it might break
    I'm probably being unfair picking on that but it does sum up one of the things I was saying about the Java ecosystem. With MS when they release a new framework you can be pretty confident your existing stuff's just going to continue to work. When I find myself working in Java land I never really have that confidence. But it can certainly make for exciting times.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  29. #29
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    My fear comes solely from the time it would take to vet it. I realize this might be giving me cross-browser issues with new versions of browsers (and old versions) - not good - I should bite the bullet and upgrade.

    I agree that MS doesn't give me that fear - I would change to a new .Net version or use a new VS IDE without hesitation.

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  30. #30
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,660

    Re: Java v VB

    Javascript is change waiting to happen. It's a stupid language that exists because nobody has come up with a good replacement
    I have nothing to back it up
    JavaScript is going nowhere too many website and web applications use it and it is built into all the core browser engines. Instead of getting rid of it people are creating frameworks like JQuery to evolve it and to make it better so i don't see it being replaced.

    I feel that javascript is an early step on a long road.
    Yep i agree but more a road of evolution than revolution.

    And what's wrong with loosely or weakly types languages anyway? i know some developers that use Ruby and Python who swear by them. To me it seems like loosely types languages have there places as much as any other languages.
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  31. #31
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Microsoft has even begun to embrace Java, at least minimally (VS 2013 Online):

    Build your Eclipse projects
    Not "begun to", more like "returned to". MS went into Java early on and got sued for it. Sun stated that they felt MS was breaking Java, but that was a matter of opinion. Sun started out saying that they wanted Java to be an open standard like C++. Like they and Borland did with C++, MS tried to extend Java, at which point Sun decided they wanted to retain proprietary control after all. MS has been hesitant about Java ever since.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  32. #32
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    JavaScript is going nowhere too many website and web applications use it and it is built into all the core browser engines. Instead of getting rid of it people are creating frameworks like JQuery to evolve it and to make it better so i don't see it being replaced.
    I agree. It will evolve. There is a chance that somebody will come up with a replacement, and that the replacement will truly replace. That's certainly happened before, but such events are unpredictable. What can be predicted is that JS will evolve, because it is clearly not all that highly evolved as it stands. JQuery is one path, TypeScript is another.

    i know some developers that use Ruby and Python who swear at them.
    Yeah. You said it (almost, though I had to edit that one typo to make it correct). Loosely typed languages tend to cause trouble. The advantage is that you can be sloppy. If you aren't sloppy, then there is no advantage.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  33. #33
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    18,263

    Re: Java v VB

    @shaggy - if you've not done any big-time JS work - check out this link

    http://earthintegrate.com/10-reasons...e-for-the-web/

    Check out #8 - once you start leveraging this it's wow! That point really isn't worded well - it's more that functions are first class objects

    http://helephant.com/2008/08/19/func...in-javascript/

    For example, I've got a JSON-array that feeds a SlickGrid on a webpage. Three years later I decide I want a filter on what records show. I can turn that array into a custom-object that has methods to allow for the filtering. All without changing a single line of code that references that array object.

    This is more technical: http://www.crockford.com/javascript/javascript.html

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

    Please remember to rate posts! Rate any post you find helpful - even in old threads! Use the link to the left - "Rate this Post".

    Some Informative Links:
    [ SQL Rules to Live By ] [ Reserved SQL keywords ] [ When to use INDEX HINTS! ] [ Passing Multi-item Parameters to STORED PROCEDURES ]
    [ Solution to non-domain Windows Authentication ] [ Crazy things we do to shrink log files ] [ SQL 2005 Features ] [ Loading Pictures from DB ]

    MS MVP 2006, 2007, 2008

  34. #34
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    24,482

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Not "begun to", more like "returned to". MS went into Java early on and got sued for it. Sun stated that they felt MS was breaking Java, but that was a matter of opinion.
    The problem was that Microsoft was in breach of contract with Sun in several ways. The only "matter of opinion" was that Microsoft wanted its own way.

    A look back in time sheds more light: Sun, Microsoft settle Java lawsuit.

    So while one could stretch things and look at this as a "return" it's really more of a "turnabout." The Java support Microsoft offers now is about the use of un-hacked standard Java as a server-side technology running on Azure in order to open up their market some more.


    It will be interesting to see how far Microsoft goes with its move to a hacked-up version of Android with its own "stank" upon it as they abandon Windows Phone:

    Hello, MS-Android. Good-bye, Windows Phone

  35. #35
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The problem was that Microsoft was in breach of contract with Sun in several ways. The only "matter of opinion" was that Microsoft wanted its own way.
    I don't disagree. At the same time that Sun and MS were tussling, there were others complaining about what MS was doing with their C++ compiler (and what Borland was doing with theirs, to be fair). Who was right and wrong is immaterial, MS was doing with Java what they were doing with C++, and what seemed to be something of a trend. It made sense, too. If you have an open standard language like C++, then there is nothing that sets your compiler apart from any other compliant compiler, so the big companies like MS and Borland were 'extending' the language in ways that would tie developers to their system. It is as easy to understand why they would do that as it is easy to say that it shouldn't be done. I agree, but it was what it was.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  36. #36
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    8,598

    Re: Java v VB

    I often wonder why MS didn't make a compiler that targets the Java Runtime by compiling VB/C# code to Java bytecode. I'm pretty sure that the Java Runtime has first class functions and generics which many of the cool stuff like LINQ in VB.Net/C# is built upon. Would have been real interesting to see that.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  37. #37
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Java v VB

    I think I know the answer to that, but it involved language from Bill that would violate the AUP. Essentially, MS wasn't all that keen on turning .NET into something that encouraged anybody they saw as a competitor. They were misguided in some of that.

    I have always felt that .NET was developed in response to a perceived threat from Java. To have .NET compile to Java byte code would not be the way to extinguish a competitor, if that was truly their objective. It's all just speculation, though. I haven't confirmed it.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  38. #38
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    8,598

    Re: Java v VB

    It would have been a good move in my opinion. I say this because of MS's strong tendencies to keep their stuff proprietary unlike Java which was more open and as a result was better in the arena of multiple platforms. Although .Net was conjured up with multiple platforms in mind, the truth is, Microsoft's tight rein on it has stifled its implementation on other platforms. You always read about how others have to dance around patents with their own implementations of the .Net Framework. It may have been better if their implementation was less restricted or under that GNU license thing that the open source people use.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  39. #39
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    110,302

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Roman View Post
    VB7 is coming back baby!

    Thats whats missing now and days. A true BASIC language for people to learn to get the feel for coding before jumping into tougher languages such as java, C++, and even any of the .NET languages such as VB.NET and C#. Sure you can learn from VB6, but we still need a VB7 to fill the void. Its why the war between VB.Net and VB6 continue to this day. Its 2014 for crying out loud and theres still petitions...
    But it's not the people who are just starting out programming who are asking for VB6+; it's the people who have been using VB6 for years and want to keep on using VB6 rather than using something else. They want something that is all that VB6 was plus more so that they can keep using it and not have to use VB.NET or something else. If you want something that is completely basic (as opposed to BASIC) for the rank beginner then you can use this:

    http://smallbasic.com/

    If you've perfected that then you can move onto VB.NET.

  40. #40
    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    South of the Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    2,256

    Re: Java v VB

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    @sjwhitely

    jQuery is so cool - I really like the interactive and fluid HTML that is can manipulate. And takes away all that low-level DOM work you would have to do without it.

    What version of jQuery do you use? I got stuck on 1.7 and I'm kind of afraid to upgrade to the latest for fear of what it might break.
    Two versions - 1.6 and 1.9.something, if I recall. There are multiple sections of the web pages I'm involved in. I try to 'up-version' on a regular basis, but I try to avoid any potentially esoteric stuff; after too many years programming, you get a feel what could be future breakageness.

    Web pages and web systems continue to evolve, so I encourage programmers to try out new things - ordinarily, I wouldn't necessarily push a cavalier attitude, but people are accustomed to web pages in a constant flux, and that 'things just break' (computer programs have always been thus, unfortunately).
    "Ok, my response to that is pending a Google search" - Bucky Katt.
    "There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets." - Unk.
    "Before you can 'think outside the box' you need to understand where the box is."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width