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Thread: Too late for that...

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    Too late for that...

    From the Washington Post:

    Rep. John D. Dingell (D-Mich.) will retire at the end of his current term, capping a historic career as the longest-serving member of Congress in history.

    Dingell told the Detroit News for a story published Monday morning. "I donít want people to say I stayed too long."

    Dingell, 87, has served in the House for nearly 60 years. He became the longest-serving member of Congress last summer.
    "I donít want people to say I stayed too long." It seems a little late for that to me.
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    PowerPoster boops boops's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    "I don’t want people to say I stayed too long." It seems a little late for that to me.
    Is this just for the sake of argument? If no one has yet complained that he stayed too long, it is in my view not too late. If you are now complaining that he has stayed too long -- well that is too late.

    BB

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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Maybe he figures he needs a year or so out of Congress to atone for...

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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by boops boops View Post
    Is this just for the sake of argument? If no one has yet complained that he stayed too long, it is in my view not too late. If you are now complaining that he has stayed too long -- well that is too late.

    BB
    Nothing more to it then face value and that I find it ironic. I do think that is a good case for term limits.

    So then in your view, does it mean if one or many complained, then he did stay too long? It hard to figure out what you are saying

    On the plus side his wife is running to take his place.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 24th, 2014 at 07:48 PM.
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    On the plus side his wife is running to take his place.
    Is she 20 or 30 year old??

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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Is she 20 or 30 year old??
    Actually she a young and vibrant 59. Same age as me
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    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Dingell, Waxman, Levin, Harkin, Matheson, Moran, Rockefeller, Tim Johnson, George Miller, Carolyn McCarthy, Mike McIntyre... they all see what's coming in November. Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    Dingell, Waxman, Levin, Harkin, Matheson, Moran, Rockefeller, Tim Johnson, George Miller, Carolyn McCarthy, Mike McIntyre... they all see what's coming in November. Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.
    Or they are just fed up with the way Republicans have left polictics\government in the gutter.

    Oops..did I bring up politics

    Vote for Ted Nugent...he pretty much summerizes Republican politics.
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    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Dingell's replacement will be a Democrat. His district is staunch democrat; Ann Arbor, I believe.

    But yes: term limits. I'd also go further and say that Congress should meet a maximum of 2 months out of the year.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    I'd also go further and say that Congress should meet a maximum of 2 months out of the year.
    They already do. The rest of the time is just fund raising.

    Largely speaking, term limits are pushed by those who want to force out the incumbents. We are talking about governing a large, powerful economy and country. Do we really want the people doing that to be part-time folks with no experience? When has that ever been a successful management strategy?

    On the other hand, the system would survive in a different form. Exactly what shape the system would take on would be quite fascinating to see. There's a HUGE amount of money and power that would be in the hands of fairly inexperienced, uninformed, people, which would provide fertile grounds for those who wanted to get a stake. I would expect that what would end up happening would be that the hill staff would become more powerful as they would be able to make themselves increasingly indispensible to the constant churn of fresh meat. That would shift the focus of influence peddling without diminishing it. I think there have been a few examples of similar situations in various empires/monarchies where the staff had more real power and influence than the regent.

    It sure would be interesting, though.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    They already do. The rest of the time is just fund raising.

    Largely speaking, term limits are pushed by those who want to force out the incumbents. We are talking about governing a large, powerful economy and country. Do we really want the people doing that to be part-time folks with no experience? When has that ever been a successful management strategy?

    On the other hand, the system would survive in a different form. Exactly what shape the system would take on would be quite fascinating to see. There's a HUGE amount of money and power that would be in the hands of fairly inexperienced, uninformed, people, which would provide fertile grounds for those who wanted to get a stake. I would expect that what would end up happening would be that the hill staff would become more powerful as they would be able to make themselves increasingly indispensible to the constant churn of fresh meat. That would shift the focus of influence peddling without diminishing it. I think there have been a few examples of similar situations in various empires/monarchies where the staff had more real power and influence than the regent.

    It sure would be interesting, though.
    I never even considered that but it makes sense.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Vote for Ted Nugent...he pretty much summerizes Republican politics.
    Always amusing how some extreme partisans insist they know absolutely everything about what the other side thinks and believes.

    It's almost as amusing as celebrities who honestly believe the rest of us give two squirts of piss what they think about politics.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    I would expect that what would end up happening would be that the hill staff would become more powerful as they would be able to make themselves increasingly indispensible to the constant churn of fresh meat
    Do you guys get to see "Yes Minister" over there. Because you just described Humpy.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    It's almost as amusing as celebrities who honestly believe the rest of us give two squirts of piss what they think about politics.
    You don't. I don't. Most of the people here don't.....But, unfortunately, lots of people DO. I'm just not sure what that says about anything. Don't want to think about it. Wouldn't be prudent.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Do you guys get to see "Yes Minister" over there. Because you just described Humpy.
    The only "humpy" I know is a species of salmon...and I don't even remember which one.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    Always amusing how some extreme partisans insist they know absolutely everything about what the other side thinks and believes.

    It's almost as amusing as celebrities who honestly believe the rest of us give two squirts of piss what they think about politics.
    I'm also amused when sarcasm goes right over someone's head. It also seems like it is the other side of the aisle that considers the opposition "extreme". I wonder if I would have gotten a cheer if I made a similar comment about democrats? Finally, when someone starts calling others names they have usually already lost the debate.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 25th, 2014 at 06:59 PM.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    ...

    Largely speaking, term limits are pushed by those who want to force out the incumbents. We are talking about governing a large, powerful economy and country. Do we really want the people doing that to be part-time folks with no experience? When has that ever been a successful management strategy?

    ...
    No experience with what, though? There are specified age restrictions, as well as residency restrictions. In addition, it was envisioned - quite correctly - that the people manage [sic] the people. That such people would rather not be dragged to DC to discuss and legislate, to 'fill out the paperwork' of running the country, it is specified that our legislators must meet at least once a year (you can't get out of doing your duty).

    From what I have seen, a poor or inadequate manager will always be a poor or inadequate manager; no amount of experience in that position will change it (see: millions of books on 'how to be a better manager').

    Further, with term limits, we will be put in a situation where bad decisions can fairly readily be rectified. Fund raising would be minimal; what would you need to raise funds for (apart from a successor). You will be a 'working stiff' like the rest of us, but will be under tight scrutiny. Ones actions and achievements will be more of the message than the oratory (which is why the 'closed book' on our current president is quite galling - would you hire someone who's resume has significant sections redacted?).
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Term limits would not force out incumbents all at once (accept the spike at the get go) - after that it would be more of a flat line (hey - that can be taken two ways).

    I'm from CT - where Dodd came from - he needed to go a long, long time ago-. Had his hands in all this banking and real estate bubble/explosion. That banking lobby actually tried to get him a run for President in 2007 - what a travesty that would have been.

    We now have some pretty junior members in congress - I guess I'll wait to see how they perform...

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    Re: Too late for that...

    From this side of the pond, the biggest problem with US politics would seem to be the money involved. This in turn leads to political campaigning being unbelievably vicious (if TV dramas are to be believed, that is). Personally, my recommendation would be for tight caps on the amount that can be spent on campaigning, which would hopefully lead to more instances of the best candidate, as opposed to the candidate with the richest backers, winning.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    You see them sometimes talk about cap's on money involved - they should do this - do that. Then they use the excuse that not everyone is on the same playing field and forget the whole thing!

    What happens on your side of the pond? Do you have limits on money involved? Do you have term limits?

    It's all a financial pile of lobbying here - what happens on your side??

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    Re: Too late for that...

    There are limits on party spending during an Election campaigns, and there are different limits depending on the type of election being held - link

    There are no term limits on MP's or the Prime Minister they can pretty much stick around for as long as they keep getting elected.

    There are more rules on outside interests in UK politics though
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    No experience with what, though? There are specified age restrictions, as well as residency restrictions. In addition, it was envisioned - quite correctly - that the people manage [sic] the people. That such people would rather not be dragged to DC to discuss and legislate, to 'fill out the paperwork' of running the country, it is specified that our legislators must meet at least once a year (you can't get out of doing your duty).

    Further, with term limits, we will be put in a situation where bad decisions can fairly readily be rectified. Fund raising would be minimal; what would you need to raise funds for (apart from a successor). You will be a 'working stiff' like the rest of us, but will be under tight scrutiny. Ones actions and achievements will be more of the message than the oratory (which is why the 'closed book' on our current president is quite galling - would you hire someone who's resume has significant sections redacted?).
    This seems horribly utopian. You are WAY too cynical to really believe that replacing the entrenched with new people will cause a bunch of fresh-faced, idealistic people to come in and make wonderfully enlightened decisions. That's not going to happen at all. There is FAR too much money to be made by swaying the legislation of this country. Would these new people really be magically immune to that? Or vastly more beholden to that?

    To some extent, things like spending caps, term limits, and the like, require people to live with a certain amount of restraint. We have no such restraint. Our objective, since the 80s, has been a win-at-all-cost attitude, and not just in politics. If you can sway the legislation to improve your companies position, you nearly have a fiduciary responsibility to do so. That may mean lobbying, or it may mean pushing one candidate or another. If you cap one source of influence, the money will shift to the other. If you cap direct contributions, you open up all the other campaign mechanisms we have. As long as you are allowed to buy air time to advertise, you can ALWAYS make your message support one party or candidate.

    If Britain is not overboard the way the US is it is because of a cultural sense of propriety...or maybe a lack of either media outlets or money. Over here, the purchase of air time to influence the outcome of the next election is nearly detached from the election cycle itself. The amount of advertising for candidates ramps up before an election, but it is beginning to become perpetual. You can't put a legal end to it, either. You can limit direct contributions to an individual, to a campaign, or to a party, but that doesn't even begin to address the spending over here. What you can't limit is the contributions to a cause, and a cause can buy an ad for whatever they want. Even if you can't endorse a candidate or a party, you can certainly make it clear which candidate you support.

    You simply can't write a law that can stop people from saying that they will do everything within their financial ability to influence the outcome of an election. They can show restraint on their own, but if they won't self-regulate, you can't regulate them.
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    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I'm also amused when sarcasm goes right over someone's head. It also seems like it is the other side of the aisle that considers the opposition "extreme". I wonder if I would have gotten a cheer if I made a similar comment about democrats? Finally, when someone starts calling others names they have usually already lost the debate.
    Sarcasm? Yeah, right... whatever.
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    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Considering the bang-up job congress has been doing for roughly four decades now I would be more than happy to give someone else a chance. Problem is the last time we gave the repubs full control they decided to keep spending like drunken democrats and as a result their base decided to stay home in 2008 (and again in 2012) giving us the giant crap sandwich we've been dealing with ever since.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j View Post
    Considering the bang-up job congress has been doing for roughly four decades now I would be more than happy to give someone else a chance. Problem is the last time we gave the repubs full control they decided to keep spending like drunken democrats and as a result their base decided to stay home in 2008 (and again in 2012) giving us the giant crap sandwich we've been dealing with ever since.
    I know what you mean. I long for those days right before Bush left office:

    Hundreds of thousands - millions of jobs disappearing almost overnight.
    The financial system almost collapsed.
    The US was involved in two wars one based on faulty manipulated data.
    The beginning of the greatest recession in US history.

    Ahh..the good old days

    Now before you go off on me that was also sarcasim. Both sides were guilty of all that. Mainly we, the people, are the guilty ones because we continue to allow it to go on.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    This seems horribly utopian. You are WAY too cynical to really believe that replacing the entrenched with new people will cause a bunch of fresh-faced, idealistic people to come in and make wonderfully enlightened decisions. That's not going to happen at all. There is FAR too much money to be made by swaying the legislation of this country. Would these new people really be magically immune to that? Or vastly more beholden to that?

    ...
    Utopian? Not really...as you say, I am very cynical of the whole thing.

    Entrenchment, though, isn't getting the country run. Buying a politician is a long term affair, because they are in a long term position. If your money only buys something for 2 years, and the politician is going to have to do something after 2 years, there may be a change in where the money flows.

    If you are told when you hire on that you only have two years in the job to do the job, and whatever you do, you are coning to have to 'consume', will you change the way you do things; what will be your plan after 2 years?

    I'm still hoping for some change, though...
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    PowerPoster SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    This seems horribly utopian. You are WAY too cynical to really believe that replacing the entrenched with new people will cause a bunch of fresh-faced, idealistic people to come in and make wonderfully enlightened decisions. That's not going to happen at all. There is FAR too much money to be made by swaying the legislation of this country. Would these new people really be magically immune to that? Or vastly more beholden to that?

    ...
    Utopian? Not really...as you say, I am very cynical of the whole thing.

    Entrenchment, though, isn't getting the country run. Buying a politician is a long term affair, because they are in a long term position. If your money only buys something for 2 years, and the politician is going to have to do something after 2 years, there may be a change in where the money flows.

    If you are told when you hire on that you only have two years in the job to do the job, and whatever you do, you are coning to have to 'consume', will you change the way you do things; what will be your plan after 2 years?

    I'm still hoping for some change, though...
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Too late for that...

    I just feel that there is so much money to be made from congress that there is too much incentive for businesses/individuals to influence the direction of state. I feel that if we had term limits the problem would probably be worse rather than better. If you knew that you only had two years and then you were out of a job, would you be more or less inclined to push hard for something like a sugar subsidy? Suppose the sugar beet industry offered you a payout at the end of your brief term in return for the effectiveness of your service? That would be a change that you could live with (a trivial increase in the cost of sugary stuff), and it would provide you a windfall. You could be responsible on all the other things, even.

    As long as the money is there to be made, people will pry on the system with whatever levers they happen to have at hand.
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    Re: Too late for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    ,,,,
    I think there have been a few examples of similar situations in various empires/monarchies where the staff had more real power and influence than the regent.
    The Britcom "Yes, Minister" focuses on your very point.
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