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Thread: Forum Template / Layout Change

  1. #1

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    Post Forum Template / Layout Change

    Here it comes....

    I've put it off for several years, but it is now time for VBForums to align with our other forms in regard to some of its layout. Because we've had trouble with over-sized ads the last few days, I figured now was the time. You are going to see a layout change coming very soon - could be today. We are shifting the ads and article list to the right side of the page and there will be a shorter ad at the top. This will move the content up on the page a bit, but at the cost of some of the right side of the screen.

    For those on high-resolution monitors, this should have very little impact. For tablets and lower width, this might annoy a little bit, but there is a link that will let you expand the current view if there is a wide code listing or something.

    This is how our other sites (Codeguru, DevX, etc.) have been for years. I've pushed to keep the right rail off of this site because you guys have asked for that. At this time, however, I think it is best to align with the other sites so that we have similar structures. This should also help as we look closer at mobile too. VBForums is less likely to get ignored or pushed to the bottom of the queue because of its overly unique layout).

    All in all, I know a couple of people have already protested. It is hard to say the change is horrible when other large forums (of ours) are already using the layout.

    Here is a look at a mock:

    <image removed since forum now updated>
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  2. #2

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    10...9....8....7

    My countdown for RhinoBull's post about how bad this is....



    (He tries to keep us honest after all)

  3. #3
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Gee, can you ashcan the social media mashup stuff and any other fiddly Ajaxy junk?

    Most of this is just noise. While I can understand the need for advertising the rest of it just makes for massive page downloads.

  4. #4

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    It's the age of social media....

    The items you mentioned are tiny relative to the avatars, and other elements of the page.

    Regardless, one of the things we are doing is reviewing the overall structure of all the forums to determine changes that should be made. This will include working to optimize them for social media, for search (which includes keeping pages small and fast), and for multiple platforms (including mobile).

    I can't promise anything in the next few days, but there is a bigger project being evaluated. VBForums will be better aligned for that project with this change.



    Let me take a look over the next few days and see if we can possibly shift the social buttons at the top

  5. #5
    Software Carpenter dee-u's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Can the "Expand" be a permanent setting for a member? I'd think with this current layout there seem to a lot wasted space on the right side since only the upper part has the ads.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    It's the age of social media....
    PMs are bad enough here now, nagging, whinging, sometimes demanding in-depth individual assistance.

    I'd hate to be a "twit" or a "facebooger" or whatever social media mavens like to call themselves!

  7. #7
    College Grad!!! Jacob Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Want to buy Facebook integration. If I see an awesome post I wanna click



    Not sure if I like the entire forum squished everytime I goto a new page. It should be a one time thing for members after one visit. The rest of the time browsing should be permanent until 24 hours or something.

  8. #8
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Just bought a new laptop, the new change doesn't bother me one bit. I am surprised at the resolution on this laptop.

    On my MacBook... its smaller, but It doesn't bother me.

  9. #9
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Now I have to tilt my head to the side in-order to stop seeing the advertisement.
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
    If this thread is finished with please mark it "Resolved" by selecting "Mark thread resolved" from the "Thread tools" drop-down menu.
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  10. #10
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Oh God no! I always fear this day would reach. This is just....God I don't even have the words and it isn't even working properly. Sometimes the horizontal length of the entire page exceeds the browser window's width when the side rail is closed. This means I have to scroll now to read long posts. Hell I have to scroll right now to compose this post. I don't think I could put up with this. I'm really sorry but I think you guys are probably going to see less of me. I'm not trying to be bitter or self important or anything, Brad said it was a long time coming but this is really annoying to work with and I'm not sure I could get used to having to close the side rail to recover space every time I navigate to a new page and this over wide page glitch makes it even worse.
    Last edited by Niya; Feb 21st, 2014 at 01:42 AM.
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  11. #11
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Here is a pic of the wide page glitch:-

    Name:  widepage.png
Views: 373
Size:  93.7 KB

    Notice that I have to scroll horizontally to read posts now. It happens about 1 in 3 times when I open a thread. Its incredibly inconvenient. Reading a thread now is no longer a matter of simply scrolling down anymore.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  12. #12
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Very narrow on tablet screen.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #13
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    This is probably one of the worst design/layout decision I have ever seen.

    At least, fix the 'scroll to right to view text'-issue...
    Last edited by Arve K.; Feb 21st, 2014 at 05:13 AM.
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  14. #14
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by _powerade_ View Post
    This is probably one of the worst design/layout decision I have ever seen.

    At least, fix the 'scroll to right to view text'-issue...
    Brad said that side bar was going to come eventually....I was hoping he meant like 10 years or something. I never imagined it would arrive so soon. And the wide page glitch that came with it is making it unsable for some threads. I have to side scroll now when composing posts or reading posts. This very post I have to scroll right to see the "Post quick reply" button and not a short scroll either, I have to scroll quite a bit.

    Its funny in a way. Now there are two problems, the page is either too narrow(side bar) or too wide(glitch). *Scrolling now to post reply*
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  15. #15

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    This particular thread is scrolling right because there are large images in it that have increased the width. I removed the big image from my post, but there is another wide image in this post as well. If its width were reduced, then this thread width would also reduce. As such, the scrolling in this thread would be occurring regardless of the layout change.
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  16. #16

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Another option to help would be for the profile on the left to be moved to the top of a post. That is how it is on forums.codeguru.com. Do you want that change?
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  17. #17
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    This particular thread is scrolling right because there are large images in it that have increased the width. I removed the big image from my post, but there is another wide image in this post as well. If its width were reduced, then this thread width would also reduce. As such, the scrolling in this thread would be occurring regardless of the layout change.
    Code and Quote blocks also seem to do it when before they didn't. I found myself accidentally scrolling left and right in a thread... thinking it was a big image, I went looking... the only thing in that thread were Code (highlight) blocks.

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  18. #18
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    This particular thread is scrolling right because there are large images in it that have increased the width. I removed the big image from my post, but there is another wide image in this post as well. If its width were reduced, then this thread width would also reduce. As such, the scrolling in this thread would be occurring regardless of the layout change.
    This is not true because it is happening with this thread and there are no images there. Besides, that thread was displaying fine yesterday before these changes.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  19. #19
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Another option to help would be for the profile on the left to be moved to the top of a post. That is how it is on forums.codeguru.com. Do you want that change?
    I also post at CodeGuru although very very infrequently and even that still isn't pleasing. The wasted space is only half the issue, the side bar is distracting in general especially with all the funky colours some of the ads have. I'm just not used to reading web pages plastered with ads so prominently. In fact I avoid websites that are over zealous with their ad placement. It makes for a very confusing and unpleasant experience. I can't count the amount of times I clicked a link expecting a download on some sites only to realize that it was some ad I clicked. I HATE HATE HATE HATE webpages with an over abundance of ads.

    I'm sorry, I really hate to have to be complaining like this. I know you guys need ads to make revenue and that, and that's understandable but I just can't help but hate this new layout and hate doesn't even come close to describe how I feel about this change. I could more than live with the ads on top or even the bottom but not so intrusively on the side like this.

    And this right scrolling issue, could you guys look into that. It makes posting in stretched out threads a real chore. I'll try to learn to live with the side bar but definitely not this wide page issue.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  20. #20
    PowerPoster RhinoBull's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    10...9....8....7

    My countdown for RhinoBull's post about how bad this is....
    Why even bother if you know it yourself. You know it's bad so why did you do it? You know there is a lot of wasted real estate... You know it's bad on mobile devices...
    This is exactly the reason I stopped visiting devx and codeguru. Change it back please.

    Thank you.

  21. #21
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Another option to help would be for the profile on the left to be moved to the top of a post. That is how it is on forums.codeguru.com. Do you want that change?
    I prefer it on the side.

  22. #22
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by dclamp View Post
    I prefer it on the side.
    Actually I just went over to codeguru website. Its not that bad. I wouldnt mind that. As long as my snow still works, I'm fine.

  23. #23
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Wow, just wow.

    You almost have to maximize your browser window just to use the site this way.

    This thread is currently a mess, as is for example http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...01#post4618801

    Of course a lot depends on your browser and browser version, but a lot of people are running locked down employer-managed PCs and often that means only some older version of IE.


    I can't see how this is going to encourage a new user to join. How can the site not be considered broken right now?

  24. #24

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    I'd like to reiterate --

    If you click on the 'expand' link on the right, the page should look exactly like it did before (with a lot less stuff at the top). If you don't believe this is the case, then tell me where you see the difference.

    THIS THREAD would be scrolling to the right the way it was before because of the images that were added above -- NOT because of the right rail.
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  25. #25
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Click on the thread link in my post #23 above. Even after "expand" I have to size the browser window quite wide to avoid the need for horizontal scrolling.

  26. #26

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Then that is an issue that is independent of the right rail change. As I mentioned. clicking the 'expand' link puts things like the originally were. I have someone looking into whether the quote or code boxes are messing things up. (Just like the two wide images are messing this thread up.)
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  27. #27
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    I pity the poor fool in the cube next to me (I'm working at a customer site but packing up to head home). He is stuck with a 4:3 monitor over in that cube and would probably have to H-scroll any page here.

  28. #28
    PowerPoster RhinoBull's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Awful! Awful! Awful!

    I had few colleagues of mine asking what's wrong with vbf because I was who recommended in the past.
    I tried to be positive and my respond was "new look, the same content" but they all said "looks like codeguru and we hate it". They probably will never come back here again...
    VBF was always unique and that's what people loved about this site. Before it's too late change it back.

    Sorry Brad.

  29. #29
    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    VBF is/was the only site out of 22 that didn't have the right rail ads... No one on the other sites say a word... You too can get used them in time.

    As Brad mentioned, the tech people are looking to fixing the scrolling issues... My guess it we'll also have to put a file size limit on attachments.

    And I've also voted that the Member information be placed on top in the horizontal position. That would buy use some more real estate. You can see it action Here

  30. #30
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    File size limit on attachments? Do you mean attached image dimensions?

    Sorry to sound negative, just trying to offer feedback. Maybe when I get back home the issues won't have the same severity there.

    Off to the airport!

  31. #31
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    The image size has nothing to do with the scrolling problem. There are a couple of threads here without images that were fine before the right rail was added that are now stretched. Its a glitch of some kind that accompanied thechange.

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    As I mentioned. clicking the 'expand' link puts things like the originally were.
    Now I have to click that every time I navigate to a new page or refresh a page. That is excruciatingly annoying.
    Last edited by Niya; Feb 21st, 2014 at 02:40 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  32. #32
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    You know the more I think about it, the more I realize that putting a right rail for ads on a forum is the dumbest idea ever conceived by the hand of man. Only hack sites and warez sites do stuff like that. No respectable site would violate their userbase so cruelly.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  33. #33
    PowerPoster RhinoBull's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    VBF is/was the only site out of 22 that didn't have the right rail ads... No one on the other sites say a word... You too can get used them in time.
    Not sure I agree with getting used to because I won't but that's besides the point.
    VBF is no longer UNIQUE and this will drive people away. You guys have to realize that as well.

  34. #34
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    I haven't seen any size glitch, not even on the link that Niya mentioned. I do remember seeing something like that in the past, but a long time back. Is this browser related? I'm using Chrome, at the moment, and can't find any size issues.

    The site appears fine on a wide-screen monitor. It would probably cramp badly on a regular format monitor.

    As for my opinion, the big expanse o empty space seems kind of silly. I prefer the old format, but can live with the new format. I'd say it comes down to a question of function. From the perspective of the users, the purpose of the forum is for learning (or something like that, but I won't get into that). On the other hand, from the perspective of a business...it's a business. People can vote with their feet, and that's about it. Since there currently isn't anything quite like VBF, it's hard to say where to go.

    This change decreases the functionality of VBF for the purpose of the users, so the change isn't done for our benefit, but for the benefit of the business. The change makes the site a little worse for the user, but from my perspective it is only a little worse, not a dealbreaker. If it becomes so, I'll go, as well, but not just yet. For now, it's just a trade-off as might well happen in a business.
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  35. #35

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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    A few quick comments on a crazy Friday afternoon....
    • Something changed beyond the right rail. We are looking into it. The width of the images will cause horizontal scrolling. We are fixing that to do a max image width of 600. That will help with that. It looks like something else changed that is also causing widths to be too wide. I'm not sure if that is the quote box or code box, but the techs are looking into it. This thread in particular is a pain to respond to because of the width -- but that is regardless of the right rail. The right rail should scrunch things, not stretch them....
    • Yes, there was a business reason for doing the change - a couple. The biggest was that the ad position at the top was causing issues because the ad system doesn't know there is a limited ad height. The ads have variable height and more and more ads were pushing the page. This ad unit is used on dozens of sites, and this is the only one where there is a negative impact. If you can suggest a different location for this ad that works, I'm all ears. As such, something had to change (and removing ads is not an option I'm being given). We couldn't keep doing the fire drills to remove individual ads because they kept messing up the template.
    • This site is unique. The layout is not what makes this site unique. Really. This is a pretty bland, standard vBulletin layout, so you can't start saying that changing the right rail destroyed the uniqueness of the site because it isn't a unique layout. This site is unique because of the topics it covers, the community that is here, and the discussions that are had. It is unique because most of the time, people here respect one another and are hear to learn or help others learn. It is unique in that people (for the most part) can have discussions and state their opinions and thoughts and be heard and taken seriously. (I really am listening and taking the feedback in this thread seriously).
    • There are a few other options we can do.... Consider that we could put the items in the right rail under the first post in each thread. You'd get the width, but you'd have the stuff in your face between posts and I don't believe you'd be able to scrunch it out. Posting ads between each post is something that has been discussed and is a feature of vBulletin. I see a lot of sites do that. I've seen this on many forums and consider it much worse than the right rail. That is, however, an option.
    • "Decreases the functionality" -- what functionality do you no longer have that you had before? There might be a decrease in screen width, but you can do the same functionality....

  36. #36
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    My my my... we are a touchy lot aren't we?

    Here's what I'm getting out of this... haters are gonna hate... whiners are gonna whine...
    Quite honestly, I'm getting a little tired of it... every little change sets people off... how in the world did we manage to move from VB4... or from VB6 (ok, there are still a few people that are having some heartache over that)... but the point is, there really are bigger problems with the world and our industry than the ad placement on one forum. Don't like it? Fine, you've made your voice heard. Now either quit b!tching about it, or carry through on the threat.

    I keep seeing the comment about how "plastered" VBF is now... and it wasn't before? (for the record, this is NOT plastered... there's another, much more prominent tech site that is MUCH more plastered than this one, the four... FOUR ads on this side are far less intrusive than some of the crazy sig blocks some people have... no one complains about that.

    Moving the user profile... that's something I'm not a huge fan of, but mostly because, as I get older and my eyesight fades even more... on sites that do that, I find it hard to know, "Ok, is the post for this poster up here? or the one below?" inevitably, I get it wrong... so that's not a change I'm in favor of, but it's not my choice and I'll either live with it, or I won't and I find some other place. I'll have to balance that with how valuable I think the site is to me.

    VBForums IS unique ... It's community is what makes it unique. The members that come here day in and day out (and in some cases hour after hour) to help each other out. Heck, 90% of the information on this site is available out there on hte interwebs. Fortunately we have a lot of noobs out there that haven't figured out how to use Google just yet, and come here to get the help they need. How many sites go y'all belong to that allow threads like the Golden Chair to run endlessly like that? Heck, how many have a truly off-tech-topic kind of place where we can just chit-chat, let our hair down and eat a Twinkies?

    Not that I want to give any one an idea... be glad that some powers that be haven't decided to just fold us into the CG forums permanently. Be glad we have this little corner of the universe to be VBers... and that we're not just some sub-forum tucked away under a sub header somewhere.

    -tg
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    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
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  37. #37
    PowerPoster RhinoBull's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    If you click on the 'expand' link on the right, the page should look exactly like it did before (with a lot less stuff at the top)...
    Can you at least make viewing right panel optional?

  38. #38
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    Would that not mean that you are not seeing ads? I can't imagine that it would be acceptable to give users the ability to not see ads.

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  39. #39
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    I favor keeping the user profile where it is. I realize that moving it to the top of the post would free up space, but I fear that I'd have the same problem that TG mentioned. Putting the user profile to the left makes it VERY clear which post is with which person.

    Just tried out the new format on the Surface Pro 2:

    1) In portait orientation...it's a mess, but it's a better mess than I had feared it would be. What I thought would happen would be that it would fit to the screen by shrinking the thread down to a useless size. Instead, it just extends the whole thing off the right side so that you have to scroll back and forth to read a post. It's unpleasant, but useable, whereas it would have been unuseable if the thread had been squeezed between the right rail and the user profile such that all three fit on the screen.

    2) In landscape orientation it's fine.
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  40. #40
    WiggleWiggle dclamp's Avatar
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    Re: Forum Template / Layout Change

    What about the possibility of when we click the "expand to full width" it stays shut for an hour. Using cookies, just have it active for an hour (or more/less). Its better than having to click it on every page.

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