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    Exclamation ... It Tolls For XP

    Microsoft warns Windows XP users risk 'zero day forever'
    "But after April 8, 2014, organizations that continue to run Windows XP won’t have this advantage over attackers any longer. The very first month that Microsoft releases security updates for supported versions of Windows, attackers will reverse engineer those updates, find the vulnerabilities and test Windows XP to see if it shares those vulnerabilities. If it does, attackers will attempt to develop exploit code that can take advantage of those vulnerabilities on Windows XP."

    Because a security update will never become available for XP after April 8, "Windows XP will essentially have a 'zero day' vulnerability forever," Rains [Microsoft's Director of Trustworthy Computing] said.
    A bigger problem for people who program casually, clinging to XP, is the jolt of future-shock they are in for. We already have to deal with one thread after another on the subject, but how bad are things going to get once all they can buy is Window 8.37?

    The differences between XP and a current OS like Win7 are large enough now to cause grief. But Microsoft plans to roll out a "new" Windows every 12 to 18 months from now on. When April 2014 rolls around the only thing for sale will be Windows 8.1 with 8.2 waiting in the wings. Postpone a move 2 more years until 2016 and some folks will hit a wall of too much to learn and too much of it gone (Microsoft drops some information about intermediate releases when a new Windows release gets near).

    It is one thing to try to support users on downlevel systems (I even have a few Win95/98 users to support), but it is hard to imagine trying to use ancient versions of Windows for development.

    VS 2012 doesn't even install on Windows prior to Win7 SP1 as far as I know.

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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    And BTW, forget "XP Mode" which also sunsets and won't get bug, security, etc. fixes either.

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    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Hmmm, that guy seems like he always Rains on every parade he visits.
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    I wonder if that put his resume for the job at the top of the pile when he applied?

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    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    They figured he'd be "right as rain".
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    I wonder why so few SOHO users seem to have grabbed the cheap Win8 upgrade? [Long expired now]

    I suppose part of the reason could be Win8 itself, or maybe dealing with ISO images (or paying a lot more to get it on a DVD). Or maybe Windows 8: The end of the full retail version? confuses matters.

    See Windows 8 Pro Upgrade for current pricing.

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    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    For my part, I'm not concerned about Win8, because JMC thinks it's great, and I trust his judgement. There are certainly things that I'm not sure about with the whole Win8 direction, the biggest of which is that MS seems to want to go strongly in an 'annual subscription' route, which would be appalling. The annual update of the OS seems like a step in that direction. I can understand the point, though. I currently have four functional computers at home. Three of them are running XP and one is running 7. Of the three running XP, two of them probably don't have the system resources to handle a bigger OS. I have no particular need for any kind of security on those three, either, but will need to do something with at least one of them in the next year. I suspect that I need to revamp hardware to get a reasonable Win8 box, at which point I'll try it. It would be good to have all three for some testing, but that will have to wait.

    The point of what I was getting at is that I haven't gone to Win8 because I have no need to. Win7 works great, as far as I'm concerned. I was pretty happy with XP, as well, but how long has it been since XP came out? I still have XP on three systems because I don't have any reason to upgrade. What price would get me to upgrade? None at all. Even free wouldn't be worth it because the time taken to perform the upgrade is greater than any perceived benefit. This is a problem with a fairly stable OS, or language for that matter. Win7 works great for me, and there is no feature of 8 that I feel like I really need. For a similar reason, I'm holding at VS2010. There are new features to Win8 and there are new features to VS2012, but they aren't sufficiently useful that they are real selling points. Similarly, the .NET language could have stopped at 3.5, as far as I'm concerned. The 4.0 version added a few little things that will ultimately be useful, but I have yet to use them. However, MS can't simply sell an OS or VS to a customer and never sell them another version for the rest of time. That's not sustainable for them as a business model.

    Back in the 90s, computers were getting so much better every year or two, and OSes were sufficiently weak, that upgrading every couple years made a lot of sense to people. These days, computers aren't changing all that much on the personal side, and you can't tell the difference with most apps, so there isn't the compelling reason to upgrade the hardware. Similarly, there aren't such new features to the OS that drives people to upgrade. I'm at the point with computers that I am with cars: I'd just as soon drive it into the ground rather than spend the money on a new one every couple years.

    The turnover, these days, is in phones and tablets, because that's where the technology is increasing fast. Eventually, the iX will not be enough different from the i(X-1) to motivate people to change. Android will also stabilize. At that point, phone sales will start falling just like PC sales are currently: There just isn't a compelling reason to buy when the "upgrade" isn't very far "up" in grade.
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    The majority of people probably don't have a reason to change to a new version of Windows until they have to buy a whole PC anyway. And then most business users below a certain size are in much the same position.

    But it's funny... as soon as a company is big enough to hire more than 1 or 2 "IT guys" (PC fetch and carry, self-styled "admins") they even go backwards, installing old versions of Windows over the newer one that new machines come with. I don't have any other customers besides these who are still pre-Vista. So people paying for in-house support are often the worst off!

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Win7 become the "new XP" though, getting an extension of its extended support. It is scheduled for death in 2017 as things stand.

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    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    As long as there are emulators to run the old XP capable software I'm happy.
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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    For a similar reason, I'm holding at VS2010. There are new features to Win8 and there are new features to VS2012, but they aren't sufficiently useful that they are real selling points. Similarly, the .NET language could have stopped at 3.5, as far as I'm concerned. The 4.0 version added a few little things that will ultimately be useful, but I have yet to use them.
    Have you taken asynchronous methods for a test drive yet ? It makes me blush to think about the kind of code I could write with such a powerful language feature. That was enough to sell me VS2012. I'm even willing to overlook how utterly ugly the IDE looks with all those capital letters and that dull gray theme. At the moment I'm still using VS2010 but my PC is long overdue for a format and re-install. I might just move to VS2012 when I'm good and ready to re-install Windows.

    [EDIT]

    BTW it was the Sub keyword for creating void return lambdas that sold me on VS2010 and it cannot be overstated what a huge life saver that simple keyword became. It made life easier and practically transformed the way I wrote code.

    Though I started late in the .Net game, I suspect that had I started with VS2002 or 2003, generics would have been the selling point to get me to 2005 and LINQ to 2008. I can't live without any of these things.

    I think language features are the strongest selling points for upgrading development tools for programmers. In the case of VB.Net and I suspect C#, they just keep making life easier and more elegant as they evolve.
    Last edited by Niya; Aug 18th, 2013 at 04:51 AM.
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    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Have you taken asynchronous methods for a test drive yet ? It makes me blush to think about the kind of code I could write with such a powerful language feature. That was enough to sell me VS2012. I'm even willing to overlook how utterly ugly the IDE looks with all those capital letters and that dull gray theme. At the moment I'm still using VS2010 but my PC is long overdue for a format and re-install. I might just move to VS2012 when I'm good and ready to re-install Windows.
    No, I haven't, and from the sound of it, neither have you. When I think of what was added with VS2012 (aside from Win8-specific stuff), it is only the multi-threading stuff that comes to mind, but that isn't particularly relevant to what I am doing, at the moment. Multi-threading in any guise is mostly about improving performance. In what I'm currently doing, the performance bottlenecks are all oddly tied to drawing UI controls, and multi-threading doesn't help with that.

    As for the rest, I'd say that generics was the single biggest step that .NET took, and removed 2002 and 2003 from the picture. Since I'm rather down on LINQ (everything you can do with LINQ will work faster without LINQ, though it will take more lines of code), that wasn't a selling point for 2008, for me. 2010 added some really nice IDE features and was a good looking, great performing, IDE with a few nice additional language features. Nothing compares to the jump from 2003 to 2005, though. I feel that the additions were HUGE with 2005, Large with 2008, modest with 2010, and dubious with 2012. In short, I think that .NET is stabilizing as a language around the current features, and that MS is stretching to add new features to justify new versions at this point.
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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    No, I haven't, and from the sound of it, neither have you.
    You really believe I'd have mention this without trying it myself ? Of course I tested it. We have 3 PCs home here and VS2012 is installed on one of them so I can play around with when I want.

    I don't think asynchronous methods have anything to do with threading by the way. I believe they run on the same thread. Its a compiler trick that splits a method or some such thing to produce the effect. Imagine my surprise when I attempted to update a control from a running asynchronous method only for it to work. It didn't generate a cross thread exception. And the patterns associated with asynchronous methods are quite elegant. Its more elegant than multi-threaded code but it will take a while to get used to. It does feel quite alien.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    When I think of what was added with VS2012 (aside from Win8-specific stuff), it is only the multi-threading stuff that comes to mind, but that isn't particularly relevant to what I am doing, at the moment. Multi-threading in any guise is mostly about improving performance. In what I'm currently doing, the performance bottlenecks are all oddly tied to drawing UI controls, and multi-threading doesn't help with that.
    Well its different with me. I tend to make heavy use of multi-threading, as least with my current project. I utilized it to a lesser degree in other projects. Though, I don't think I can live without it now to be honest, so you can see why I'm wild about asynchronous methods.
    Last edited by Niya; Aug 18th, 2013 at 03:38 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwalker83 View Post
    As long as there are emulators to run the old XP capable software I'm happy.
    No idea what you mean by this. XP running on a VM has the same problems as XP on hardware.

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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    No idea what you mean by this. XP running on a VM has the same problems as XP on hardware.
    Not the operating system I am talking about the games, software that run on Windows XP.
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    The point of what I was getting at is that I haven't gone to Win8 because I have no need to. Win7 works great, as far as I'm concerned...
    Same here basically - I recently purchase new pc with W8 but downgraded it to W7. None of my clients are using 8, they are all on either XP or W7 (vast majority) and have absolutely no plans to upgrade for a very long time.
    I don't see major security problem with running XP either since all of my XP machines are behind the corporate firewall.
    If you run XP at home then best you can do (and this should always be done imho regardless of any OS) is backup your system on a regular basis.
    So, generally speaking I don't know what the heck is the problem...

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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoBull View Post
    I don't see major security problem with running XP either since all of my XP machines are behind the corporate firewall.
    Firewalls have nothing to do with malware infection or preventing it. Exploits that work against security holes in your system services can reach you from an infected machine behind the same firewall.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoBull View Post
    If you run XP at home then best you can do (and this should always be done imho regardless of any OS) is backup your system on a regular basis.
    And back up the infections along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoBull View Post
    So, generally speaking I don't know what the heck is the problem...
    It's about trying to patch new exploits before they are widely exploited. Some of this can be addressed by anti-malware suites but (a.) they lag behind the malware technology, and (b.) they can't do anything about certain kinds of exploits - which have to be patched because an antivirus can't defend against them.

    If you don't understand this there is not much hope for you, or those attacked by the botnets your PC becomes a part of. You're like someone who continues to drive after having his license revoked for proven incompetance: a danger to yourself and others.


    Interesting:

    Microsoft will craft XP patches after April '14, but not for you

    They pick on China here but the same is probably true everywhere:

    Giving away patches for a longer period might help stifle exploits of XP PCs in China, for example -- and thus indirectly protect the global Windows ecosystem -- but even then, Microsoft may see no point in being generous. Most security experts believe few Chinese PC owners download and install patches, even though they can, because of their heavy reliance on pirated operating systems and an accompanying distrust of updates that they assume will sniff out the counterfeit and render it useless.

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    PowerPoster RhinoBull's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    You know, I cannot emphasize how much I disagree with your last post - where I worked people rarely got any malware, viruses, etc nonesense unless they brought something with external drive directly connected to their pc (in many places this is disallowed).
    And that was due to superb corporate protection. At home I still have one XP machine which I refuse to patch with any security updates - no issues since XP came out.
    Now, you can continue to theorize about how bad the future is going to be without MS protection and I will continue ignoring that part.

    Best regards.

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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    I also used XP for many years with auto updating disabled and never got any troubles with it.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Well gee, I guess malware is just a fiction made up by vendors and pundits.

    If your machine was part of a botnet you might not even know it for years. Thanks for being a spam relay!

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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Tell me what you suggest then ? How can I be 100% certain that I don't have malware, besides using a typewriter ?
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    @dilettante

    I think it would be a good idea if you change the thread title because I keep reading it as "It Trolls For XP".
    when you quote a post could you please do it via the "Reply With Quote" button or if it multiple post click the "''+" button then "Reply With Quote" button.
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Microsoft puts Windows XP laggards in a pinch

    Microsoft has policies in place that shut off sales to retailers of an older operating system one year after the launch of its successor, and which stop shipping the previous Windows edition to OEMs for installing on new PCs two years after a new version launches. If Microsoft stuck to those rules, it would halt sales to retailers of Windows 7 after Oct. 30, 2013 and quit shipping Windows 7 to OEMs after Oct. 30, 2014.

    The company website that marks those deadlines, however, doesn't yet specify "end of sale" dates for Windows 7 in retail or on new PCs, even though the retail cutoff is just five weeks away.
    Of course there are hopes and dreams, though unsubstantiated:

    While Microsoft could certainly take that step -- it would actually prefer that XP PC owners simply ditch their hardware and step up to Windows 8.1 with a new tablet or PC -- it's unlikely to. First, Microsoft has been beating the dump XP drum long and loud, with even top executives joining in.

    ...

    Second, the backlash to Microsoft nullifying an upgrade path would be swift and probably fierce; there has long been a contingent of Windows users who see conspiracy in every upgrade, believing that Microsoft is "forcing" them to spend more money.
    Though this might be a good reason why things are not quite that dark for XP holdouts yet:

    "Officially" is the key word, as Microsoft's sales lifecycle rules notwithstanding, Windows 7 will remain available at online outlets long after the Redmond, Wash. company's deadline. That's because retailers stock up on an OS before they're cut off from the supply. Amazon.com, for example, continues to fulfill orders -- through third-party vendor partners -- for Windows Vista, which officially met its retail end in Oct. 2010, and even Windows XP, which was supposed to disappear from retail in 2008.

  23. #23
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm even willing to overlook how utterly ugly the IDE looks with all those capital letters and that dull gray theme.
    Update 3 added a Blue theme that gives it more of a 2010 colour scheme and, in my opinion, is much easier on the eye than the default Light theme or the previously available Dark theme. Having been using Windows 8 for it's whole life, I'm well and truly used to the flat look now and, being an Office 2013 user too, I'm also well used to the upper-case menus. I didn't like them at first either but that's mainly because they were different to something that I'd be using for so long. Now that I've been using them for a while, they're really no big deal. I'm not going to say that I think that they're better than the old style but they're also no worse; just different. Also, VS 2013 looks mostly like 2012 but adds a bit more colour into the icons and the rest of the IDE so it takes the edge off a bit.

    I agree that people are not upgrading these days because they don't really need to. I do think that most XP users would be surprised at Windows 7. I installed it on an older laptop that originally came with XP and performance was very good. I'd installed Vista in between and it was noticeably slower than XP and 7. That said, would your average user really gain much from Windows 7? While a developer or other power user certainly does, the average Joe may not. There's even less reason to upgrade from 7 to 8 on your average PC. As much as I like it in and of itself, I don't claim that Windows 8 provides all that much extra to your average user on a non-touch-enabled PC. If you do have a touch-screen though, it's a great improvement. I have one touch-enabled device and using Windows 8 (now 8.1) is an excellent experience. On the rest of my touchless machines, it's no worse.

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: ... It Tolls For XP

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoBull View Post
    You know, I cannot emphasize how much I disagree with your last post - where I worked people rarely got any malware, viruses, etc nonesense unless they brought something with external drive directly connected to their pc (in many places this is disallowed).
    And that was due to superb corporate protection. At home I still have one XP machine which I refuse to patch with any security updates - no issues since XP came out.
    Now, you can continue to theorize about how bad the future is going to be without MS protection and I will continue ignoring that part.

    Best regards.
    You assume that you have no issues but how do you actually know? I would expect that you're less likely to do things that could lead to such an issue than many less savvy users but did any of the users whose machines have been used in DDoS attacks know beforehand, or even after for that matter, that their PCs had been become sleepers for hackers?

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