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Thread: Is programming for everybody?

  1. #1

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    Question Is programming for everybody?

    It looks like it is not, there are just people that don't have enough logic to get into programming, am I correct?
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    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Absolutely. There are a couple of people in particular who I see posting on this very site with about 2,000 posts who are still unable to grasp quite elementary concepts. Some people don't like my style because I expect them to make a reasonable effort on their own behalf but I've had numerous people thank me for doing it that way. I'll give them a few keywords and they go away and use those keywords to find the information they need to solve their own problem. Those are the sort of people who will make good developers. Some people are too lazy to do things the right way and will inevitably write bad code as a result and some people just don't think the right way to be successful, even if they are quite intelligent enough to be quite successful at other things. Just like I'm about as bad as it gets at art and music, so there are others who just couldn't be good developers no matter how hard they try. Then there are those who just aren't prepared to try.

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    PowerPoster Nightwalker83's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    It looks like it is not, there are just people that don't have enough logic to get into programming, am I correct?
    It's not for everyone but it is for dummies! Seriously though, yes, I agree. I think I have chosen the wrong career path.
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    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    It looks like it is not, there are just people that don't have enough logic to get into programming, am I correct?
    If you mean that there are people that can't wrap their head around programming in general then no, its not for everybody. There are people out there that are completely unteachable. I'm not talking about beginners who are having trouble hooking up an event handler or can't get a socket to work right. I mean people who just cannot seem to grasp how they can get a sequence of small commands can be put together to perform a complex task. I think these people lack some critical cognitive ability or something that blinds them.
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  5. #5

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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I administered a laboratory exam in Java this morning, in my point of view it will be basically a 10-minute task, it just uses a simple "if" command to determine the value of an input, and populates a variable based on that input. Argh, they had 3 hours to finish it and not one was able to.
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  6. #6
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Well, like I said, some people are unteachable. They just cannot think like a programmer. You either have it or you don't. People who utilize deductive reasoning a lot in their normal lives can be taught programming.

    Take for a example some non-tech person and show them how to say...create a Yahoo email account. Then ask them to create one at Hotmail on their own. If they can do that, you have a person you might be able to teach programing. This person is capable of recognizing patterns and extrapolating. If however, they cannot figure out how to create an email account at Hotmail even after learning well how to do it at Yahoo then this person is incapable of learning programming. I know tonnes of people that cannot recognize these simple patterns and always need a "techie" to show them how to sign in to Gmail even though they know well how to sign in to FaceBook. They just cannot see that both sites require you to do the exact same thing. The differences are only superficial. But even after doing it a million times, they just won't recognize that.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Super Moderator si_the_geek's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I agree with that.

    While there are many of us who fall somewhere within the group of being naturally "good" at programming, it is a different mindset to other skills.

    Over the years we've had several members on this site who have been around for a long time but don't seem to try to learn anything, they ask us to a write solution for them and just copy+paste (even when the question is almost totally identical to one they posted a few days earlier, and similar to one a few weeks earlier, etc). Sooner or later people stop feeding them code, and they just disappear.

    There are others who struggle to understand, but at least put in the effort - and they generally get where they are going, but slower than some of us.


    We've all got a variety of strengths and weaknesses; like jmcilhinney I am not good at art and music, and there are several other things I'm not good at!

    The trick is to find out what your strengths are, and try to make them work for you. Unfortunately there are lots of people in the world who don't find out, or can't find a way to make them work... in which case they have to just keep struggling with things that aren't ideal.


    In terms of the group you were teaching, it is hard to work out what the issues might be... it could well be that they all have the wrong kinds of mindset, or it could be something about the teaching, or it could be something else.

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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    It's not for everybody but not being able to program does not mean that they lack logic, they might just have other interests.

  9. #9
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    It looks like it is not, there are just people that don't have enough logic to get into programming, am I correct?
    I don't think it is but I managed to make a 28 year career out of it. I'm terrible at math and not very good at logic. I know I have an above average intelligence but also recognize I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have written some very successful business applications from scratch and been a competent, at least in my view, project leader at some major American corporations.

    I can't nail it down but programmers are a different breed. I think you need to be a little twisted to succeed at it and "succeeding at it" is open to interpretation. I do know I enjoy it and I don't mind going to work when I doing it.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Aug 7th, 2013 at 02:50 PM.

  10. #10
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I'm terrible at math as well but I'd disagree on logic. You cannot be a programmer, even a bad one if you do not possess the capacity for logical thinking. Like I said before, the ability to use deductive reasoning is essential but what I think is also key is the ability to abstract. Programming might as well be a synonym for abstractive reasoning. You have to be able to think in terms of algorithms which can go well beyond the field of programming. For example, I believe this guy, Leonardo da Vinci would have made a great programmer. He used to build a lot of mechanical contraptions which is basically programming, you're just doing it with levers, cogs and springs instead of subs and methods. Some people have it and some just don't.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  11. #11
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm terrible at math as well but I'd disagree on logic. You cannot be a programmer, even a bad one if you do not possess the capacity for logical thinking. Like I said before, the ability to use deductive reasoning is essential but what I think is also key is the ability to abstract. Programming might as well be a synonym for abstractive reasoning. You have to be able to think in terms of algorithms which can go well beyond the field of programming. For example, I believe this guy, Leonardo da Vinci would have made a great programmer. He used to build a lot of mechanical contraptions which is basically programming, you're just doing it with levers, cogs and springs instead of subs and methods. Some people have it and some just don't.
    Just agreeing on what is logical thinking can get sticky. I remember when I was taking my first college course on logic speaking to someone that never went to college but was a bright girl. She questioned how someone could even take a course in logic. It seemed to her that "logic" was just cut and dry. I think she was confusing common sense for logic.

    Logic can be broken down into many aspects. For instance:

    · Formal Logic
    · Syllogisms
    · Constructing proofs and refutations
    · Propositional and predicate logic
    · Modal and fuzzy logic
    · Symbolic logic
    · Deductive and inductive reasoning

    Telling a machine how to take specific steps to reach a certain state doesn’t require being good at logic at all to me. For example, to me being good at logic means you can answer this question and explain how you arrived at the correct answer. Some here may remember hearing it before:

    There were three men being held captive. One had two eyes, one had one eye, and the other was blind. Their captor had three red hats and two white hats. He blindfolded each of the three men, put one of the five hats on each of them and threw the rest away. The captives did not know what was thrown away or what they had on. The captor told the captive with two eyes “I’m going to take off your blindfold. If you can look at the other two captives and tell me what color hat you have on I’ll let you go”. He did that and the captive with two eyes said out loud, I do not know what color hat I have on”.

    The captor said the same thing to the captive with one eye…”I’m going to remove your blindfold and if you can look at the other two captives and tell me what color hat you have on I’ll let you go. The captive said out loud “I don’t know what color hat I have on”.

    The captor wasn’t even going to ask the blind man but he chirped in “I know what color hat I have on”.

    What color hat did he have on and more importantly how did he know?

    That is a very “logical” puzzle and I think most programmers’ eyes would glaze over trying to answer that.

    My point is we probably have different interpretations of what logic consists of and I don’t think, under my way of thinking, a good programmer has to be “good” at logic. Setting out a serious of steps to reach a set position doesn’t really require being good at logic. Don’t get me wrong though…I’m not trying to make a case that good programmers aren’t logical or that it isn't a desired trait. I’m just backing up what I said about me.

  12. #12
    Karen Payne MVP kareninstructor's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I will take a different approach to replying

    Sadly all it takes is a willing customer and a person with the dollars to purchase a adequate machine and developer software (or free IDE software) to be in business making money building crappy software that is in constant need to repair. So in reality anyone can be a programmer which of course is not what is being asked here yet this is how some label themselves as programmers and truly believe they are. How does it go, just because you own a piano does not mean you can play it.

    But seriously speaking nope, not everyone can be a programmer just like not everyone can be a surgeon.

  13. #13
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Telling a machine how to take specific steps to reach a certain state doesn’t require being good at logic at all to me. For example, to me being good at logic means you can answer this question and explain how you arrived at the correct answer. Some here may remember hearing it before:

    There were three men being held captive. One had two eyes, one had one eye, and the other was blind. Their captor had three red hats and two white hats. He blindfolded each of the three men, put one of the five hats on each of them and threw the rest away. The captives did not know what was thrown away or what they had on. The captor told the captive with two eyes “I’m going to take off your blindfold. If you can look at the other two captives and tell me what color hat you have on I’ll let you go”. He did that and the captive with two eyes said out loud, I do not know what color hat I have on”.

    The captor said the same thing to the captive with one eye…”I’m going to remove your blindfold and if you can look at the other two captives and tell me what color hat you have on I’ll let you go. The captive said out loud “I don’t know what color hat I have on”.

    The captor wasn’t even going to ask the blind man but he chirped in “I know what color hat I have on”.

    What color hat did he have on and more importantly how did he know?
    I've never seen this puzzle before but I don't think its that difficult. Definitely within the realm of a programmer. I haven't solved it but at a cursory glance I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that the blind man heard that the other two didn't know what colour they had on. I'm guessing if I put pen and paper to this, I would find that there can be only one arrangement where both seeing men cannot determine what hat they're wearing.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  14. #14
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevininstructor View Post
    Sadly all it takes is a willing customer and a person with the dollars to purchase a adequate machine and developer software (or free IDE software) to be in business making money building crappy software that is in constant need to repair.
    Well even the number of people who can do this is small compared to the number of people who can't and will never be able to. Even bad programmers "have it".
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Karen Payne MVP kareninstructor's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Well even the number of people who can do this is small compared to the number of people who can't and will never be able to. Even bad programmers "have it".
    No disagreement here, just thought I would point this out. Over on Microsoft Social forumns I noticed a fair amount that appear to fit this (and yes there are not many) type GetType(WannaBe).

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    PowerPoster dunfiddlin's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I'm guessing if I put pen and paper to this, I would find that there can be only one arrangement where both seeing men cannot determine what hat they're wearing.
    Well kinda. There is only one arrangement in which the second man to look can both know that the first man did not know and still not know himself.
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Anyone that has the logic to speak a language has the capacity to program, because after all, programming is just telling the computer what its supposed to do. It takes time to master all languages, some learn quicker and others learn not as quickly. Or am I wrong?

  18. #18
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I suppose you have a point, however, we as humans when communicating can expect other humans to fill in the gaps. With a CPU, you must tell it exactly what must be done. You cannot count on it to use common sense. This aspect is pretty hard to grasp.

    As we're on the topic, here's a joke, something I can never forget. The very first time I ever laid hand on a computer. I'm mean I've never ever used one before that point. I remember typing to the computer, "Draw a fan". I kid you not! And I actually expected it to be able to follow this command. I remember anticipating a correct response only to be disappointing that all that I saw in movies were really exaggerations. Human language and CPU language might have similarities but they're totally different worlds. Some people just can't grasp the idea of an entity that needs to be told in every detail how to carry out a task.
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Some people just can't grasp the idea of an entity that needs to be told in every detail how to carry out a task.
    Exactly! I hate it when someone asks me to do something and they don't give me all the details.

  20. #20

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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I suppose you have a point, however, we as humans when communicating can expect other humans to fill in the gaps. With a CPU, you must tell it exactly what must be done. You cannot count on it to use common sense. This aspect is pretty hard to grasp.

    As we're on the topic, here's a joke, something I can never forget. The very first time I ever laid hand on a computer. I'm mean I've never ever used one before that point. I remember typing to the computer, "Draw a fan". I kid you not! And I actually expected it to be able to follow this command. I remember anticipating a correct response only to be disappointing that all that I saw in movies were really exaggerations. Human language and CPU language might have similarities but they're totally different worlds. Some people just can't grasp the idea of an entity that needs to be told in every detail how to carry out a task.
    I once typed "Virus" and pressed enter in Command window and waited what it would do but it did nothing. =(
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  21. #21
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    I once typed "Virus" and pressed enter in Command window and waited what it would do but it did nothing. =(
    You make me feel a little better about my stupidity now Thought I was alone
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  22. #22
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Lol View Post
    Exactly! I hate it when someone asks me to do something and they don't give me all the details.
    lol
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  23. #23

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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    You make me feel a little better about my stupidity now Thought I was alone
    We are just curious, not necessarily stupid. ;-)
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  24. #24
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    We are just curious, not necessarily stupid. ;-)
    Curious ? I tried to instruct a PC of the late 80s to draw a fan.....I can't help but feel pretty stupid especially with what I know now lol.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  25. #25
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    lol
    I was actually being serious.. I've been programming since I was 9 years old, I find simple questions to be very advanced.. I was told I think too much.

    Basically when someone asks me a true/false questions with multiple conditions, i go blank.

  26. #26
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I doubt there is any simple answer.

    In part it can be like any other complex skill, and sometimes a person just won't stick with it until they get better at it. Perhaps they don'y really enjoy it enough, perhaps they have a mentel model of the process that clashes with reality and makes it harder for them.

    Few people can keep both broad and deep detail inside their own heads, so we rely on reference materials. But using those effectively requires some skill with the use of indexes and search engines, which can be improved if you've actually been over the material once. Reading and comprehension skills well above elementary school level make a big difference in success.

    The last point is why I am so impressed with successful non-native English speaking programmers. So much relevant material still isn't widely available in other languages, either at all or written/translated properly. Of course Technical English is its own subset and can be learned well without a high level of proficiency in Literary English or other subsets. And reading can be learned without being proficient in a spoken language for that matter.

    Still, impressive.


    Then there are other foundational skills, primarily topics in mathmatics and some of those a little esoteric even among people who major in mathmatics at the university level. To get a B.S. in Electrical Engineering requires more than a Math(s) major requires, often through Tensor Calculus. Computer science requires working knowledge of another branch that the 4 year Math major doesn't get in depth: finite or discrete math. This covers or overlaps some of the topics already mentioned above. See Discrete mathematics.


    I know of people who made entire careers as programmers with nothing but a high school diploma they scraped by to obtain, followed by a few trade school classes. These are the "foot soldiers" of computer programming, and they write in VB.Net, C#, and Java today. In prior decades they wrote Cobol and RPG.

    Some of them have pretty awful programming skills and as a result may find themselves doing nothing but "maintenance programming" for much of their careers. They rely on others such as co-workers and in-house programming consultants with deeper skills and background, and today they rely on posting in forums like this one to squeak by.

    But they always have (and do) squeak by.

    Just as in farming, construction, or any other complex activity there are different roles requiring different skills and levels of skills. I'm not sure programming is any different. Not everyone is cut out for rough carpentry either.

  27. #27
    Fanatic Member namrekka's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    It looks like it is not, there are just people that don't have enough logic to get into programming, am I correct?
    Well.....for hobby? Or for profession?
    As long people have fun I guess.
    I know some painters (art) doing it for hobby...but.....
    Repairing cars for hobby.....but...

  28. #28
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevininstructor View Post
    I will take a different approach to replying

    Sadly all it takes is a willing customer and a person with the dollars to purchase a adequate machine and developer software (or free IDE software) to be in business making money building crappy software that is in constant need to repair. So in reality anyone can be a programmer which of course is not what is being asked here yet this is how some label themselves as programmers and truly believe they are. How does it go, just because you own a piano does not mean you can play it.

    But seriously speaking nope, not everyone can be a programmer just like not everyone can be a surgeon.
    Sounds like someone wronged you big time once

  29. #29
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfiddlin View Post
    Well kinda. There is only one arrangement in which the second man to look can both know that the first man did not know and still not know himself.
    That's the key to it...

  30. #30
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    I'm going to go counter to the general opinion and say that, while there are certainly some people who flat out will never be able to program, I think they're actually pretty rare. I think the amount of raw abillity required to program at a basic level is actually pretty small. A bit of boolean maths, an understanding of how a program "flows"and a great deal of pedantry are all that are really neeed and I think most people can conjure that up from somewhere.

    What's much rarer are people who could progress to being senior developers/architects. That requires a much wider range of talents and I think logic is actually one of the least of them. It needs diplomacy, the ability to speak "user", creativity, the ability to research, curiosity, a bit of project management, a bit of team leadership, a thick hide, grim determination, business intuition and, most of all, the ability to blind your manager with bull. Unless you're working in a few specialist areas (games, for example) the level of logic required doesn't grow much between a beginner and a lead.
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    What's much rarer are people who could progress to being senior developers/architects. That requires a much wider range of talents and I think logic is actually one of the least of them. It needs diplomacy, the ability to speak "user", creativity, the ability to research, curiosity, a bit of project management, a bit of team leadership, a thick hide, grim determination, business intuition and, most of all, the ability to blind your manager with bull. Unless you're working in a few specialist areas (games, for example) the level of logic required doesn't grow much between a beginner and a lead.
    Time to quote Albert Einstein???

    imagination is more important than knowledge
    logic will get you from a to b imagination will take you everywhere



    well too bad i lack creativity and imagination.

  32. #32
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    A big part of it is also what kind of programmer are we talking about. Someone creating games, launching spacecraft, CAD\CAM, new software development, etc. I'm in application support. I work in the IT department, people call me a programmer, but what I do for a living is all over the board. One morning one of ten different applications I support might be down because another group upgraded something without letting us know. You get that up and running and go to meeting to discuss business changes to another application. Later that day you may be making changes to an application to use new database tables. Or you could be upgrading reports to the next version of Crystal. There is always a backlog of projects that need everything done from cosmetic changes to the way it interfaces with another application.

    So I wear a programmer's hat but may go weeks without writing an actual program from scratch. I'm involved in server upgrades, software upgrades, new projects, old projects, day to day support but I'm still "a computer programmer" on the books. Someone mentioned you need to be able to stand back looking at the big picture one moment to deep in the bowels of a program finding out where decimal points are not defined correctly in another moment. I think that is right on in mine line of work.

    Kind of reminds me of that movie, I think it was "Head Office", where Rick Moranis is like a screaming banshee going on about his mercedes benz and them looks up and says' "I love this job".

  33. #33
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by namrekka View Post
    Well.....for hobby? Or for profession?
    As long people have fun I guess.
    I know some painters (art) doing it for hobby...but.....
    Repairing cars for hobby.....but...
    OK... I'll take that on directly...

    As a hobby, sure any one can be a programmer... even the worst of a script kiddie is a programmer to some degree... the problem with these types is when OTHERS start applying that term and expectations get out of control... all because someone programmed their uncle's Excel spreadsheet to do some coloring.

    I was taking this thread in the context of an actual profession... the daily job. And for that, I think the answer is no... not everyone is cut out to be a programmer any more than I think I could cut it as a mechanic even though I know how to tchange the oil, spark plus, replace the brakes, change a thermostat, or even replace a serpentine belt. I still wouldn't call myself a mechanic.

    I'm one of the lucky ones... and I know it... some how I ended up with the natural ability to do this job... I started off as a hobby programmer at the age if 8 ... I took an Apple BASIC class at a summer camp help by the local university... the next year I took the LOGO class... I had fun... a couple years later I got an I.B.M. PC... one of the original 8086 variety... I took my Apple BASIC books, learned the difference between the two and started programming what ever I could using PC BASIC... I started buying PC World, learning what I could there... taught myself some rusdimentry SQL to work with dBASE ... In high school, the teachers were trying to start up the Advanced Placement (AP) program at our school, so we saw Stand and Deliver (good movie) ... when I found out that there was a Comp Sci one... found out that the test was given in Pascal... went out, go Turbo PAscal 2.0.... read the Reference Guide (that's the SDK/API documentation in printed form for all you young'ns out there) from cover to cover... I spent the next 4 years programming thing in Pascal, games, applications, what ever... By this point I was hooked, and I knew that's what I wanted to do...

    Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it, I look at it as a good thing) college jsut wasn't in the cards for me... not that I couldn't get in - I was accepted to 3 universities - it turned out to be a cost issue... eventually, I went into the Air Force... that's when I found out that I have a knack for business logic and processes... That's also when I made the transition from procedural programming to event driven programming... took me 3 months before it finally click... I kept getting stuck on the "But where's the code that says, if this button is clicked, do that?" ... eventually the penny dropped... and it opened up a whole new world for me... And that's what I've been doing ever since... been working on enterprise-level, mission-critical business applications. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I love what I do. I've recently discovered another new niche in my career... I happen to also have a knack for numbers and accounting. I'll probably end up taking a couple accounting classes at the local tech college so that I can get a much more fundamental basis of understanding of it, but it's an area I'm willing and able to tackle that for what ever reasons, others can't or won't. But that's OK, because the areas they enjoy working with areas I'd rather not touch.

    What was my point? I'm not sure any more... I guess part of it might be that maybe these people that we think aren't cut out for it, just simply haven't found their groove yet. Or maybe the penny just hasn't dropped yet...

    I will agree with a couple points from others about some of the skills needed... boolean logic, to some extent mathematical concepts, listening and communication skills.... ability to eat crow from time to time w/o choking on it... curiosity, imagination... a lot of the thinks Funky mentioned... but I don't know that I'd say that "the ability to blind your manager with bull" is a needed skill... unfortunately the ability to play politics is becoming more and more of a needed skill (I guess that qualifies to some degree as what FD was saying) the higher up you go... which is why I'm considering sabotaging my career path to stay where I'm at... I don't like to play politics, nor do I want to... anyways...

    it takes a lot of skills from a lot of different areas to make it...

    -tg
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  34. #34
    PowerPoster dunfiddlin's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Lol View Post
    I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Anyone that has the logic to speak a language has the capacity to program, because after all, programming is just telling the computer what its supposed to do. It takes time to master all languages, some learn quicker and others learn not as quickly. Or am I wrong?
    Yeah, you're wrong. I always feel 'language' is a bit of a misnomer in this case. It's actually a logical system in much the same way as mathematics is. You can't learn a computer language in the same way that you do a spoken language. There are no 'insignificant' grammatical mistakes that can be ignored by interpreting context, for one thing. You can't make yourself understood with a smattering of words and a bit of patience from the listener. You can't abbreviate, misspell/mispronounce, or use idioms. You can't drop your aitches or use false plurals (it's octopods, you peasants!!!) or imply anything using tone. It's really not a language at all.
    As the 6-dimensional mathematics professor said to the brain surgeon, "It ain't Rocket Science!"

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  35. #35
    PowerPoster dunfiddlin's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Basically when someone asks me a true/false questions with multiple conditions
    Um .... er ....
    As the 6-dimensional mathematics professor said to the brain surgeon, "It ain't Rocket Science!"

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  36. #36
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    There are plenty of Torgo-like programmers.

  37. #37
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfiddlin View Post
    Yeah, you're wrong. I always feel 'language' is a bit of a misnomer in this case. It's actually a logical system in much the same way as mathematics is. You can't learn a computer language in the same way that you do a spoken language. There are no 'insignificant' grammatical mistakes that can be ignored by interpreting context, for one thing. You can't make yourself understood with a smattering of words and a bit of patience from the listener. You can't abbreviate, misspell/mispronounce, or use idioms. You can't drop your aitches or use false plurals (it's octopods, you peasants!!!) or imply anything using tone. It's really not a language at all.
    something else that doesn't work... t.y.p.i.n.g. s.l.o.w.l.y. or YELLING IN ALL CAPS ... then again, it doesn't work in spoken languages either...


    -tg
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    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  38. #38
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Before the internet and tech forums anyone every hear R.T.F.M. from another programmer? Read The F**cking Manual

  39. #39
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfiddlin View Post
    Yeah, you're wrong. I always feel 'language' is a bit of a misnomer in this case. It's actually a logical system in much the same way as mathematics is. You can't learn a computer language in the same way that you do a spoken language. There are no 'insignificant' grammatical mistakes that can be ignored by interpreting context, for one thing. You can't make yourself understood with a smattering of words and a bit of patience from the listener. You can't abbreviate, misspell/mispronounce, or use idioms. You can't drop your aitches or use false plurals (it's octopods, you peasants!!!) or imply anything using tone. It's really not a language at all.
    +1 If we could have repped in CC
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  40. #40
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Is programming for everybody?

    but I don't know that I'd say that "the ability to blind your manager with bull" is a needed skill
    I was joking with that one. Obviously it's the client you have to blind... your manager should be in on the scam
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

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