Do your part for VB6!!

[techgnome]

I recognize the system as similar to our company's idea bank... you sign up, you get 5 points... to spend as you want. Make a suggestion, get another point. Your idea gets accepted by products, you get any points you put on it back, plus another 10... So yeah, on those sites, as soon as I see "point totals" ... it immediatly looses cred. Because you could have 100 people each tossing in their 4 points, come out with 400 points... which means what exactly?

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, but it doesn't add up. In two of those polls, VB6 has more than 500 points while there is only 41 or 45 voters. That would mean 12 points, or more, per vote even if every single voter voted for VB6. The comments show that the voters for VB6 on the second and third thread have nearly all (perhaps all) voted since one particular person voted 6 days ago. That person started the first poll, too.

The comments also show what the vote was for many of the people, which shows that lots voted for something else. That means that the number of points per vote by the VB6 voters was FAR higher than 12. So....what do those points mean? It's almost as if it was some kind of exponential voting, or trend-based voting, both of which would be rubbish solely because nobody would understand them.

The breakdown of voters is downright fascinating. The voting is far from randomly distributed. In all three polls there is one place with FAR more voters than the rest, but it's not the same place in each poll, despite the fact that the same people have voted in each poll.

Poll 1: Germany has 1/3 of the total votes, none from Algeria, few from SE Asia.
Poll 2: SE Asia has 1/2 of the votes in two groups, none from Germany, none from Algeria.
Poll 3: Algeria has nearly 1/2 of the total votes, none from Germany, very few from SE Asia.

You don't have to be a statistical wizard to see that there is something very wrong about that voting pattern.

[Fatina]

These are weird. All three of them are seriously recent, and the number of votes is a fraction of the count. The largest has only 101 votes, the other two are 45 and 41 votes, yet the point totals are FAR higher. Therefore, it's not a simple tally of the number of votes for each. I tried voting to see what impact one vote would have, but I was unwilling to put up with the registration crap.

Yeeeeeeessssssssssss, it must be a conspiracy )))))))))))))

So, how are points allocated? At first I thought it was rank-voting: First choice gets 10 points, next choice gets 9, then 8, and so forth. That's not possible, because the point total for VB6 is more than 10 times the number of voters. So, the points per vote has to be something more than straight up rank-voting.

Yeeeeeeessssssssssss, it must be a conspiracy )))))))))))))

what kind of programmer are you if you have not figured out how the system works ?!

I then noticed the comments:

1) The polls aren't independent as the same people show up on all three polls. For another thing, the same people show up multiple times as having voted in the same poll, which means that people are voting multiple times. One person has a name that states they were pressured into voting, and they were apparently pressured into voting in all three polls and voted the same way.

"pressured" ?! man you are a joker ?! Can't you see that the username of that particular user is a joke for smart guys ?! Do you really think someone put a gun to that user's head to vote for Visual Basic 6.0 ?!

2) The comments for the third poll shows that there appear to have been no votes for VB6 until the starter of the first poll appeared only a few days back, at which point nearly all the votes were for VB6.

Yeesssss you smart guy: the votes have started for VB6 when someone brought VB6 into that rank ! I am very disappointed by your logic!

3) The comments for the second poll show that VB6 was in 9th place until the starter of the first poll appeared on the same day that person appeared in the third poll. From that point on, VB6 climbed rapidly to first place. The total number of voters in those 6 days was about 20, with at least one duplicate and possibly two. In other words, half the voters voted since that one person did.

Again: the votes have started for VB6 when someone brought VB6 into that rank too! Until then they haven't what to vote ..

In short: The polls are meaningless. The second two were clearly rigged by one partisan bringing in a group of people to vote in a poll with so few voters that two dozen people would constitute a majority. The first poll was started by the person who appears to have rigged the other two. Since some of the voters in all three polls are followers of the person who started the first one, and since they appear to have moved as a block, the polls are neither independent samples, nor are they representative of anything other than the influence of a single person.

Keep telling yourself that, I for one am very happy when you get angry like this )))))))))

You have a lack of imagination ?!, You can't comprehend that indeed there is a huge community of Visual Basic 6.0 developers that voted that ranks and you scratched your head seeking explanations ?! ...... keep seeking the explanations )))))))))))

By the way, why should we be for or against any language? Why should VB6 and VB.NET gang up on any others? I can see that VB has been looked down upon by some folks in some other languages, but most of us are probably not partisan. Personally, I get paid to work in .NET and if my employer told me to work in Java, Delphi, C#, or C++ then that is what I would work in (if they told me to work in ASM I'd look for another job...or just laugh). We work in a field that is changing so fast that we all have the red queen's dilemma: Sometimes you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in one place.

AHAAAAAAAAAAAA, you "get paid to work in .NET" ? so you are a .NET partizan I see )))) just joking !

VB didn't exist when I was in college. VB4 was just showing up as I got back into programming, but I learned C++ and a fair amount of ASM, since it was only for a hobby, at the time. I moved to .NET because VB6 didn't support mobile development (PDA's at the time, for which there was only the horrid eVB). I could easily forsee being pushed into C# for my job, or possibly Java. I could also forsee getting back into C++ for my job. Oddly, I think it's even more likely that I will become familiar with a language that doesn't even have a name, yet, before I end up with any of those others.

With all that change, and the constant promise of more change, what's the point in being partisan?

True the support for mobile development is needed in VB6! A new variant of VB6 (a true VB7) must encompass this too ...

[Fatina]

I recognize the system as similar to our company's idea bank... you sign up, you get 5 points... to spend as you want. Make a suggestion, get another point. Your idea gets accepted by products, you get any points you put on it back, plus another 10... So yeah, on those sites, as soon as I see "point totals" ... it immediatly looses cred. Because you could have 100 people each tossing in their 4 points, come out with 400 points... which means what exactly?

-tg

NOP! You have not got it ! You don't have extra points! theranking.com is a very serious site !

[Fatina]

Yeah, but it doesn't add up. In two of those polls, VB6 has more than 500 points while there is only 41 or 45 voters. That would mean 12 points, or more, per vote even if every single voter voted for VB6. The comments show that the voters for VB6 on the second and third thread have nearly all (perhaps all) voted since one particular person voted 6 days ago. That person started the first poll, too.

It is best to go and vote something there and you will see how it works! There is nothing unusual there, even if you wish it to be so !

The comments also show what the vote was for many of the people, which shows that lots voted for something else. That means that the number of points per vote by the VB6 voters was FAR higher than 12. So....what do those points mean? It's almost as if it was some kind of exponential voting, or trend-based voting, both of which would be rubbish solely because nobody would understand them.

man, this means that they voted only for VB6 ! nothing unusual there !

The breakdown of voters is downright fascinating. The voting is far from randomly distributed. In all three polls there is one place with FAR more voters than the rest, but it's not the same place in each poll, despite the fact that the same people have voted in each poll.

Poll 1: Germany has 1/3 of the total votes, none from Algeria, few from SE Asia.
Poll 2: SE Asia has 1/2 of the votes in two groups, none from Germany, none from Algeria.
Poll 3: Algeria has nearly 1/2 of the total votes, none from Germany, very few from SE Asia.

You don't have to be a statistical wizard to see that there is something very wrong about that voting pattern.

Oh my god, you can't even read a statistics sheet right !

Look again:

VB6 on place 1 (USA and EUROPE have the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/what-is-th...e-world_r55229

VB6 on place 1 (ALGERIA has the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/what-is-th...ge-ever_r43672

VB6 on place 1 (INDIA and INDONESIA have the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/best-progr...e-world_r36102

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeeeeeeessssssssssss, it must be a conspiracy )))))))))))))\

what kind of programmer are you if you have not figured out how the system works ?!

It's a bit hard to see how you would interpret my statements as suggesting a conspiracy. I'm pretty good at programming, and not too bad at math, either, which is why the points don't make sense. The amount of points per vote can't be linnear to create the results that are shown in that poll. So, how are points allocated in there? I don't want to do any direct testing, as the site wants more information than I'm willing to give it. Since you have probably voted, perhaps you could explain how points are allocated?





"pressured" ?! man you are a joker ?! Can't you see that the username of that particular user is a joke for smart guys ?! Do you really think someone put a gun to that user's head to vote for Visual Basic 6.0 ?!

Yeesssss you smart guy: the votes have started for VB6 when someone brought VB6 into that rank ! I am very disappointed by your logic!

Not just anyone. One particular person, who also brought the voters with him/her. Some of them are followers of the one person who showed up six days earlier in the second and third poll and started the first one. The others don't show any affiliations, but have voted in all three polls and only after the first person showed up. Naturally, it could all be a coincidence, but Occam's Razor says that we shouldn't expect that. Considering the very small numbers voting in any of the polls, bringing a block to vote is certain to sway the results.

Frankly, I expect that you are one of the people in the block and are far more familiar with exactly how those polls were rigged than you are letting on. I'm just curious as to which one you are?

Keep telling yourself that, I for one am very happy when you get angry like this )))))))))

You're a long ways from making me angry. I think that anybody who has been around here long enough would know I rather enjoy these kinds of debates.

You have a lack of imagination ?!, You can't comprehend that indeed there is a huge community of Visual Basic 6.0 developers that voted that ranks and you scratched your head seeking explanations ?! ...... keep seeking the explanations )))))))))))

There's no imagination to it, the voting list is found below the poll and the tally is found above the poll. Furthermore, the Statistics page backs up the other points. There is no huge community voting, there's a couple dozen according to the poll itself. Why bother making up data when it's all right in the link you provided?

AHAAAAAAAAAAAA, you "get paid to work in .NET" ? so you are a .NET partizan I see )))) just joking !

I doubt you do much joking. I've been paid to work in VB5, VB6, and a variety of flavors of .NET. I've enjoyed them all, but I always moved on to the next one when the time came. I actually started in one before VB5, but it wasn't exactly VB4 and I've heard so many different stories about that history I won't say what it was because something always seems to crawl from under that stone when lifted. I also did a little bit with eVB, but I can't say I enjoyed that one.

True the support for mobile development is needed in VB6! A new variant of VB6 (a true VB7) must encompass this too ...

That's the problem with the debate, as pointed out more eloquently than others. There's a real problem with bringing back VB6: Do you bring it back as a museum piece (nobody seems to want that), or do you bring it back as a living language with new features (everybody seems to want a different set of features added)? You seem to want the latter, but at what point does it cease being VB6? I'd want multi-threading and more Object Oriented design, at the very least. VB6 had a nod towards OO design, so MS was clearly sliding in that direction. Of course, .NET was entirely OO, so MS did go that way, but if an OO VB6 was developed would it outrage people like you as not being "really VB6"?

The bottom line would be: What makes VB6 VB6? How much improvement is allowed, such as the mobile development you want, before VB6 is no longer VB6?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Oh my god, you can't even read a statistics sheet right !

Look again:

VB6 on place 1 (USA and EUROPE have the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/what-is-th...e-world_r55229

VB6 on place 1 (ALGERIA has the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/what-is-th...ge-ever_r43672

VB6 on place 1 (INDIA and INDONESIA have the lead voters):
http://www.theranking.com/best-progr...e-world_r36102

I had 2 and 3 out of order because I opened all three links in different tabs and they opened in the order I reported. That's a pretty minor quibble. I see that the voting was meant to be Europe rather than Germany in the first one, too, though the point was over Germany. The result is still the same: That's some seriously non-random distribution. Three different polls that are roughly the same, yet draw the bulk of their voters from three different geographical regions, and the majority of voters in each poll clusters in one particular area.

By the way, how's the blood pressure? I think it's safe to say that you are the most fired up about a programming language of anyone who has ever been active on this site.

[Fatina]

It's a bit hard to see how you would interpret my statements as suggesting a conspiracy. I'm pretty good at programming, and not too bad at math, either, which is why the points don't make sense. The amount of points per vote can't be linnear to create the results that are shown in that poll. So, how are points allocated in there? I don't want to do any direct testing, as the site wants more information than I'm willing to give it. Since you have probably voted, perhaps you could explain how points are allocated?

then don't !

Not just anyone. One particular person, who also brought the voters with him/her. Some of them are followers of the one person who showed up six days earlier in the second and third poll and started the first one. The others don't show any affiliations, but have voted in all three polls and only after the first person showed up. Naturally, it could all be a coincidence, but Occam's Razor says that we shouldn't expect that. Considering the very small numbers voting in any of the polls, bringing a block to vote is certain to sway the results.

Frankly, I expect that you are one of the people in the block and are far more familiar with exactly how those polls were rigged than you are letting on. I'm just curious as to which one you are?

Your lack of imagination reveals only one word: "rigged". But the site does not permit it, it is the ******* theranking.com, a very serious site !

You're a long ways from making me angry. I think that anybody who has been around here long enough would know I rather enjoy these kinds of debates.

Good for you

There's no imagination to it, the voting list is found below the poll and the tally is found above the poll. Furthermore, the Statistics page backs up the other points. There is no huge community voting, there's a couple dozen according to the poll itself. Why bother making up data when it's all right in the link you provided?

Do you really expect that the huge VB6 community will stay and vote all over the Internet for you to see how big it is ?! The values ​​of these polls show what is the size of a community, without any doubt !

I doubt you do much joking. I've been paid to work in VB5, VB6, and a variety of flavors of .NET. I've enjoyed them all, but I always moved on to the next one when the time came. I actually started in one before VB5, but it wasn't exactly VB4 and I've heard so many different stories about that history I won't say what it was because something always seems to crawl from under that stone when lifted. I also did a little bit with eVB, but I can't say I enjoyed that one.

eVB ?! yes, me neither !

That's the problem with the debate, as pointed out more eloquently than others. There's a real problem with bringing back VB6: Do you bring it back as a museum piece (nobody seems to want that), or do you bring it back as a living language with new features (everybody seems to want a different set of features added)? You seem to want the latter, but at what point does it cease being VB6? I'd want multi-threading and more Object Oriented design, at the very least. VB6 had a nod towards OO design, so MS was clearly sliding in that direction. Of course, .NET was entirely OO, so MS did go that way, but if an OO VB6 was developed would it outrage people like you as not being "really VB6"?

you bring it back as a living language with new features, of course!

The bottom line would be: What makes VB6 VB6? How much improvement is allowed, such as the mobile development you want, before VB6 is no longer VB6?

A very hard question! I was thinking about a modular structure.


As some of the programmers poited out, some crucial points are:

1) The new version of VB6 must be cross platform

2) Old VB6 projects must work on the new version

3) The new version must have the same speed as VB6 has

4) The compiled executables made by the new version should not be dependent on any external files

5) No syntax change, only additions

[szlamany]

Wow - I'm glad I missed all this!

I used to have a first language - I used to have a first car...

[Fatina]

I had 2 and 3 out of order because I opened all three links in different tabs and they opened in the order I reported. That's a pretty minor quibble. I see that the voting was meant to be Europe rather than Germany in the first one, too, though the point was over Germany. The result is still the same: That's some seriously non-random distribution. Three different polls that are roughly the same, yet draw the bulk of their voters from three different geographical regions, and the majority of voters in each poll clusters in one particular area.

Man, this is an insult to those who voted in these polls. Look at each user that voted and you will see the light !

By the way, how's the blood pressure? I think it's safe to say that you are the most fired up about a programming language of anyone who has ever been active on this site.

it is high ))))))

[szlamany]

You must chillax - you are basically spamming yourself

[Shaggy Hiker]

then don't !

I won't, but please be so good as to explain how the points are awarded.

Your lack of imagination reveals only one word: "rigged". But the site does not permit it, it is the ******* theranking.com, a very serious site !

I wasn't suggesting that the site itself was rigging anything. The point I was making was that the votes in two of those polls are less than four dozen. One person showed up and appears to have brought along all the voters for VB6 in both of those, since that person started the first poll and is followed by those other voters who have indicated a following (the rest appear to have indicated nothing one way or the other). With vote totals that low, one person bringing other voters is certainly going to swing the vote. The outcome of such a vote is hardly a referendum.

Do you really expect that the huge VB6 community will stay and vote all over the Internet for you to see how big it is ?!

Are they all hiding behind the furniture?

(ok, that's a VERY obscure reference, but on this site there may be a few people who get it)

The values ​​of these polls show what is the size of a community, without any doubt !

The largest of the polls only has a bit over 100 voters, the smaller have only a bit over 40, and the population of VB6 voters is only a fraction of those. So...the size of the community is about two dozen people?

A very hard question! I was thinking about a modular structure.


As some of the programmers poited out, some crucial points are:

1) The new version of VB6 must be cross platform

2) Old VB6 projects must work on the new version

3) The new version must have the same speed as VB6 has

4) The compiled executables made by the new version should not be dependent on any external files

5) No syntax change, only additions

I like the modular structure, but, of course, that's how .NET is built, so I'm a bit surprised you'd suggest it. Everything in the framework is in dlls, which may or may not be included at the whim of the developer. As to the other points, they seem like a reasonable start, except:

1) Niya would probably have something to say about VB being cross platform because VB6 is based on COM, which may be a problem.
2) That's a good one. The one modification I'd make is that Integer should be 32-bit and Long should be 64-bit. That should be a change that would be simple to allow in the compiler.
3) .NET is already the same speed. That nonsense about it being slower is just that: Nonsense. I had a GA that took days to run to completion. It was essentially a single routine that took a couple days. I migrated that over to .NET and found there to be no difference between the two. Most apps are LOB apps where user input is the rate step, so they don't compare very well. That app was long enough running, and put the CPU to such a test, that it made for a good comparison. Of course, I could have sped up the .NET version considerably by threading it, since a GA is an example of what is known as an embarassingly parallel application, but I didn't bother threading it, so the comparison was a fair one.
4) The compiled executables of every language other than ASM are dependent on external files. The reason VB6 looked like it wasn't dependent on external files was because the VB6 runtime was built into the OS since early on. The .NET 2.0 framework has been included in the OS from XP on, and the 4.0 framework has been included in the OS from Vista on. Therefore, a person could believe the same fiction with .NET that you believe with VB6. The truth is a bit different. Also, back in the early days I was always including the VB6 runtime with every installation package. Perhaps it wasn't necessary, but it was always possible and easy, just as it is with the .NET framework.
5) That would be .NET. The syntax is the same, only additions.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Man, this is an insult to those who voted in these polls. Look at each user that voted and you will see the light !

How is it an insult to those who voted?

[Fatina]

I won't, but please be so good as to explain how the points are awarded.

You're on the third post on this subject and you still did not realize how it works ? Points are not awarded, they are only calculated! you're not so good at math neither on logics. I am not your tutor to explain you anything!

I wasn't suggesting that the site itself was rigging anything. The point I was making was that the votes in two of those polls are less than four dozen. One person showed up and appears to have brought along all the voters for VB6 in both of those, since that person started the first poll and is followed by those other voters who have indicated a following (the rest appear to have indicated nothing one way or the other). With vote totals that low, one person bringing other voters is certainly going to swing the vote. The outcome of such a vote is hardly a referendum.

I really do not care, I showed you some statistics on VB6 (and they are not the only ones), if you choose to find them bogus explanations, is your business!

Are they all hiding behind the furniture?

(ok, that's a VERY obscure reference, but on this site there may be a few people who get it)

Not only that they hide behind the furniture, but they hide behind the furniture with their computers in their hands and make a lot of open source software! VB6 developers do something you should do: code!

The largest of the polls only has a bit over 100 voters, the smaller have only a bit over 40, and the population of VB6 voters is only a fraction of those. So...the size of the community is about two dozen people?

It looks like you do not know population statistics at all ! For a study to be valid and to have a statistical significance, the number of individuals in the study must be at least 35! Again, I am not your tutor!

I like the modular structure, but, of course, that's how .NET is built, so I'm a bit surprised you'd suggest it. Everything in the framework is in dlls, which may or may not be included at the whim of the developer. As to the other points, they seem like a reasonable start, except:

1) Niya would probably have something to say about VB being cross platform because VB6 is based on COM, which may be a problem.
2) That's a good one. The one modification I'd make is that Integer should be 32-bit and Long should be 64-bit. That should be a change that would be simple to allow in the compiler.
3) .NET is already the same speed. That nonsense about it being slower is just that: Nonsense. I had a GA that took days to run to completion. It was essentially a single routine that took a couple days. I migrated that over to .NET and found there to be no difference between the two. Most apps are LOB apps where user input is the rate step, so they don't compare very well. That app was long enough running, and put the CPU to such a test, that it made for a good comparison. Of course, I could have sped up the .NET version considerably by threading it, since a GA is an example of what is known as an embarassingly parallel application, but I didn't bother threading it, so the comparison was a fair one.
4) The compiled executables of every language other than ASM are dependent on external files. The reason VB6 looked like it wasn't dependent on external files was because the VB6 runtime was built into the OS since early on. The .NET 2.0 framework has been included in the OS from XP on, and the 4.0 framework has been included in the OS from Vista on. Therefore, a person could believe the same fiction with .NET that you believe with VB6. The truth is a bit different. Also, back in the early days I was always including the VB6 runtime with every installation package. Perhaps it wasn't necessary, but it was always possible and easy, just as it is with the .NET framework.
5) That would be .NET. The syntax is the same, only additions.

I'm bored!

1) Who is Niya ?

2) one must be able to open and run the VB6 projects in the new version !

3) no it is not, VB6 with the new embeded ASM functions is faster than C++.
This proves you do not know what VB6 is capable of

4) true, but a minimal dependence is welcomed!

5) the syntax is not the same, there are not additions but rearrangements in the syntax!

[Fatina]

How is it an insult to those who voted?

When you say that a poll is forged, you mock the people who participated in it!

[Shaggy Hiker]

When you say that a poll is forged, you mock the people who participated in it!

Where did I say it was forged? I said that the distribution was non-random, which is clearly the case. That doesn't mean it's forged, it just suggests that there's a cause to the distribution. I'm pretty sure I know what the cause is, and it has nothing to do with programming in any way. I would guess that if you looked at all such polls with samples sizes that small you'd find a similar pattern, regardless of what the subject is.

I am curious about something, though. I really haven't encountered anybody who cares about one particular language quite as much as you. In fact, I'd have to say that I have rarely met anybody who cares about ANYTHING as passionately as you appear to care about VB6. You've gone to the point of losing civility and tossing about fairly random insults at a total stranger. So, I was wondering: Are you this fired up about lots of things, or is it just VB6? If there are other things, what else gets you going?

[Fatina]

Where did I say it was forged? I said that the distribution was non-random, which is clearly the case. That doesn't mean it's forged, it just suggests that there's a cause to the distribution. I'm pretty sure I know what the cause is, and it has nothing to do with programming in any way. I would guess that if you looked at all such polls with samples sizes that small you'd find a similar pattern, regardless of what the subject is.

I am curious about something, though. I really haven't encountered anybody who cares about one particular language quite as much as you. In fact, I'd have to say that I have rarely met anybody who cares about ANYTHING as passionately as you appear to care about VB6. You've gone to the point of losing civility and tossing about fairly random insults at a total stranger. So, I was wondering: Are you this fired up about lots of things, or is it just VB6? If there are other things, what else gets you going?

I'm sorry, really I am not mad at you or others from this forum. I am like you, an obsessive-compulsive individual, and I am proud of it ! but for a long time I was very quiet.

My problem is that I know with certainty that there are tens of thousands of VB6 programmers, but they are passive, silent, they do not care about anything except their VB6 source codes. I want to wake them up!

VB6 is the language of thinkers. The typical VB6 software developer (I am a VB6 outlier) is to design and publish it's software without too many words or discussions. This must change, they must speak and interact, is not enough to write code! I am angry on my own community !

[jmcilhinney]

VB6 is the language thinkers. The typical VB6 software developer (I am a VB6 outlier) is to design and publish it's software without too many words or discussions. This must change, they must speak and interact, is not enough to write code! I am angry on my own community !

"Your own community" has no obligation to care. Maybe this silent majority keep using VB6 because it's what they know and it does what they need but they'd be happy enough to move to something else if push came to shove.

It's a bit ridiculous to claim that VB6 is THE programming language for thinkers and no other language is for thinkers. Wasn't the whole premise of VB6 that it was easy to use for beginners? How does that make it the language of thinkers? Seems like it's the language for those who don't really want to have to think too hard to me. Don't get me wrong, I think that VB6 has its strengths and I think that a lot of good developers have written VB6 code over the years. To claim that the average VB6 developer is somehow superior to the average developer using other languages is baseless. Intuitively, I would say that the average C/C++ developer would be superior to the average VB6 developer, as do many C/C++ developers. That's due specifically to the fact that a language like C/C++ does take more work. More of the drop-kicks out there will gravitate towards the language that takes less work to get things done, thus bringing down the average.

[si_the_geek]

Fatina, you are pushing hard at the limits of what is acceptable, and have already offended at least one person. That needs to stop.

While passion is good, it needs to be kept under control rather than being pushed to extremes. You aren't convincing people of your case, because you are making spurious claims, and more importantly you are not justifying yourself (when people ask a sensible question about what you have said, you almost always respond with only some kind of insult).

As this is not a face to face discussion, you can take time a prepare a calm and reasoned response - and if you want this discussion (and your usage of this site) to continue, I strongly recommend you do that.

Further insults will not be tolerated.



Regarding one the points you have raised, I can well believe that there are "tens of thousands of VB6 programmers" (I would guess about 150 thousand), but that is not as good as it sounds.

A variety of sensible sources have come up with well reasoned estimates to the number of VB programmers, and it is generally around 100 million (at one point, VB6 was fairly close to that amount by itself). Based on that population, unless you can find a way of persuading at least a million people to vote, the chances of any kind of success are extremely low... and you don't seem to have persuaded 5 people to vote yet.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I am like you, an obsessive-compulsive individual, and I am proud of it ! but for a long time I was very quiet.

That's good. You should be proud of who you are. I'm not obsessive-compulsive, but I can understand that behavior.


I was thinking about you last evening, and I think you should really get into C. Frankly, the real tragedy here is that you have focused so much energy on a proprietary language that is owned, and can therefore be discontinued, by a single company. If you focused that energy on C, you'd find a language that meets all the criteria you mentioned in post #168 (with one exception), yet it would be an ANSI-standard language that is owned by nobody (or everybody), so it can't simply stop working. The one drawback is that it has a VERY different syntax from VB. Still, if you learned one language, you can learn another. The underlying structure of all programming languages is all the same. There are loops, conditionals, and so on, in every language, so if you know one you'd be able to transfer than knowledge to another. The glory of C, from your perspective is that it has real legs, and all the claims you have made for VB6, and which have been derided by others, would stand with no sound challenge for C. It is the fastest language out there, it can do anything that a computer can do, you don't really need a runtime (you can compile everything into one exe), and with some notable limitations, it can be compiled to run on any platform (each OS has some unique quirks, so only a trivial program can run on every platform without some changes).

If you were interested in Object Oriented languages, then C++ would be the choice, but if you were interested in Object Oriented languages you'd be a .NET fan rather than a VB6 fan. Therefore C seems like the ideal language for you. Aside from all the excellent features of the language, you can make lots of horrible puns with the name, and that's always a plus.

[szlamany]

I'm curious why someone or some group has not already created a VB6-like IDE - taking all that old syntax - and simply "write" that as "real vb.net" source.

The VB6-to-.Net converter was useless from what I've heard - I'm not suggesting that.

Seems like a rather simple task to write a "VB6-looking" language editor that parses that and writes it out as .Net-like source.

[Niya]

Wow. This thread sure took a turn to the absurd. Fatina trolled you guys hard.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm curious why someone or some group has not already created a VB6-like IDE - taking all that old syntax - and simply "write" that as "real vb.net" source

Someone was trying that in CC a while back. I can't remember who it was now but I downloaded the code they'd produced - it did almost nothing. It might have been ThEiMp but I'm not sure.

I think the reason's quite simple... it'd be chuffin' hard to do, certainly too much for one person. So it'd need a commercial venture for which there'd be unlikely to be any significant market. The VB6 purists wouldn't touch it because it wouldn't give them their small foot print or any of the other benefits they usually quote. Mind you, it might get some traction with folks transitioning from VBA. They're less married to Classic VB as a concept and are really just looking for "something familiar".

you can make lots of horrible puns with the name, and that's always a plus.

I c where you're going with this.

[Niya]

1) Niya would probably have something to say about VB being cross platform because VB6 is based on COM, which may be a problem.

Missed that one. Nonetheless, I would never think this particular point needs to be addressed because it should be obvious to experienced VB6 programmers. VB6 is based in COM. VB6 applications are essentially COM clients. COM servers can also be created by the VB6 compiler. The VB6 compiler has no alternate object based technology to rely on and since COM is a Microsoft specific technology, it is likely only implemented on Microsoft platforms which means you'd only find it on Windows or any OS with a kernel based on the Windows kernel. The very nature of this relationship between COM and VB6 makes VB6 the worst possible candidate for targeting multiple platforms. However, to be fair, there's nothing stopping anyone from developing an alternate IDE and compiler that uses the exact same language syntax and keywords to target multiple platforms but then again, this wouldn't be anything close to the VB6 the VB6 people are used to, specifically because this "new VB6" would have to abandon the normal runtime and use one built from scratch, one designed especially to target multiple platforms by not relying on COM.

Thing is, the .Net standard was created with cross platform capabilities in mind so what we have here is actually an argument in support of VB.Net over VB6

[Shaggy Hiker]

See? What did I tell you? Niya DOES have something to say on the subject.

[SJWhiteley]

This looks like some good 'ole fashioned entertainment, right here. Now where's that popcorn smiley? What kinda forum doesn't have popcorn smiley?! Man, we need a petition...

[techgnome]

Oh I don't know about that SJ... then we'll have a spate of threads asking how dare we change the smilies, and it was fine the way it was before, why can't we have it back the way it was...

Funny thing about petitions, just because someone starts it, and it gets signed by a number of people... doesn't mean anything has to happen.

-tg

[Niya]

Oh I don't know about that SJ... then we'll have a spate of threads asking how dare we change the smilies, and it was fine the way it was before, why can't we have it back the way it was...

If the smileys don't take up half the page I'll be fine.

See? What did I tell you? Niya DOES have something to say on the subject.

Am I that predictable ?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Am I that predictable ?

Not really, actually. I just felt that since you had said something to that effect in the other thread, and since it was even more valid in this thread, that you ought to have something to say about it.

[FunkyDexter]

At the risk of reviving a potential flame war I thought I'd post this:-
Stack Overflow survey

If I was to go looking at which languages are the most popular I'd have thought this was a pretty good place to start. Interestingly, neither flavour of VB (classic or .Net) makes it into the top 10 although C# is looking pretty healthy so us .Neters at least have a fairly painless route into the future. 6ers are boned though

Dilitante might also be interested to note that only 7.9% of respondents actually classified themselves as Mobile developers but 51.5% said their company had some mobile presence. There's a few different spins you could put on that but I'd probably take it to mean that the more traditional desktop/web/server markets still dominate but that there's a very healthy amount of cross over so having a variety of skills is a good thing. Android scores highest in the mobile market which should make him smile

[techgnome]

Interesting results there. But it just goes to show that statistics can mean what ever you want them to be. It's all about the sample pool and the questions. I was wondering what their respondent base was... and then you get to the section where it talks about SO usage... and that pretty much sums it up right there. It was of SO users. I'm sure that if you took a survey of 100 developers in my company, things like Python, Objective-C wouldn't make the top ten either.
that's the thing about these surveys... it's such a wide open area, with so many different possibilities and technologies and opportunities, that it's pretty much impossible (I think) to really capture the true nature of the landscape. The only annual survey I've really paid any attention to is the one that ComputerWorld puts out. I've done their survey a couple of times, and it's pretty indepth. There are several questions they ask in different formats, much like a psychological survey, that allows for tweaking of the calculations. They also do not only world-wide analysis, but national (US) and regional (6 regions I think it is)... and they look at more than just specific roles/jobs, but also at IT as a whole. So you can see what's happening to IT in the SE Region, but then it also breaks it down into different roles & jobs within that region. there's a lot of slicing and dicing going on. I suspect there wasn't as much thought that went into the SO survey. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just means that I'd hardly take it as an example of what's hot and what isn't.

Plus it probably doesn't help that sometimes I get the feeling that VB developers at SO are thought of as some what of a second-class citizen. But that's jsut my personal perception. Given a sample size of 1 respondent, that means 100% developers feel that VB is treated as a lower-class.


-tg

[FunkyDexter]

It was of SO users

I think SO is one of the more balanced sites out there but you're probably right that there's still at least some snobbery. It would certainly explain why C# scores high while VB.Net drops off the bottom despite being essentially the same language.

It's also worth mentioning that the question wasn't which language they thought was best but which language they'd used. While there's likely to be some correlation there it'll be far from exact.

Really I was just linking it as a counter to the previous TheRanking links as it's got a decent sample size and it's voting system isn't trivially riggable. But your right that it should be treated with the same caution as any other statistical survey.

it probably doesn't help that sometimes I get the feeling that VB developers at SO are thought of as some what of a second-class citizen. But that's jsut my personal perception. Given a sample size of 1 respondent, that means 100% developers feel that VB is treated as a lower-class.

There, there, TG. Round here we still think your great. <warm hug>

[RobDog888]

This looks like some good 'ole fashioned entertainment, right here. Now where's that popcorn smiley? What kinda forum doesn't have popcorn smiley?! Man, we need a petition...