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An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
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7,902
Re: Alternative to VB.net ?
I used to use VisualCafe years ago and it used to compete pretty well with Visual Studio 6. I think VS6 was a bit better but they were both pretty good for the time. I have no idea whether VisualCafe has kept up though.
By the way, what is that Audi you used to represent VB.Net/C#?! I came over all unnecessary when I saw that.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
Yes, it does - in general. And so does Python (GUI via wxwidgets), Ruby, FreePascal (http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/) and others.
Of course you have options to call exits to platform specific features as that is needed in some cases to integrate on platform x with a and on platform b with y. If you use such features then of course your program or parts of it then only run on that particular platform.
There are a few platform specific behaviours that might affect also behaviour of your program. For example file locking is working completely different on Linux than on Windows. On Linux you can update your application files without problems. You will never get an error that you cannot update your file because it is in use. Therefore when programming cross-platform you should not design your application to rely on a behaviour that is Windows-only. Example for this: When you have a multithreaded batch job that is processing several files in parallel, it is not a good idea to just check if the file is locked to avoid parallel processing of the same file again. - So when starting platform independent in development it helps knowing about such differences on other platforms and design your program accordingly. Then it runs the same way on all platforms.
However, the language basics work in the same way on all platforms. Partly this applies also when trying to run a .net app on Mono under Linux. However, this is not as seamless and more limited as for other languages (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_%28software%29).
This could also be said of C/C++: As long as you don't get into OS calls and platform specific coding, it will run on all platforms. The problem is that such restrictions are WAY too severe for most uses.
On the other hand, JS will run in browsers, and browsers will run on all platforms, so you can make a very broadly applicable web app. Of course, that, too, has it's limitations.
For all languages, you end up making a trade-off between those features that are portable and those features that are not. Java doesn't appear to fulfil the promise of true cross-platform applicability anymore than C++ does. It is cross platform...up to a point. Beyond that....not so much.
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
That's a good idea. The next VB6/VB.Net thread that pops up, I'm gonna champion ASM as the way of the future. Its sure to settle arguments. No runtimes, all native code and high performance. There would be nothing to complain about anymore
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
Posts
7,902
Re: Alternative to VB.net ?
What do you mean by "I came over all unnecessary when I saw that." ?
I work in an office full of women. Suffice it to say that it would have been innapropriate for me to stand up for at least 10 minutes after seeing that car. Nuff said?
I personally think we should go back to a valve system.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Considering how well Apple has done at emulating Windows
Apple doesn't have any emulators for Windows. Mac OS X runs on Intel architecture so a Mac is today just another PC on which you can install and run Windows. Of course you still need some specific Apple drivers just as you would need specific Dell drivers on a Dell PC or HP drivers on a HP PC.
About the promise of write-once run everywhere; it's never been fulfilled. Yes, you can write a Java program that runs on multiple platforms but only if you go for the least common denominator. Try for example to write a program that runs on Android in Java and then just move that to any other platform and it will fail (unless it's very basic), simply because you want to use the specific APIs that exists on the platform you're writing the code for. Actually the Android platform makes it even worse because of the many different devices that uses it. Just have a look in the Google Play store and see how many applications that exist in there that is only available for certain devices as opposed to any Android device.
The only thing that seems to be really platform independent is HTML5 (with CSS3+js) but even then you have to tweak the code for different devices and screen sizes and the fact that some browsers take advantage of things like the GPU and other hardware if they exist while others don't (especially not mobile versions of browsers).
It is true however that you can use Java to write for many different platforms but don't think you don't need to tweak the code for each and every platform you want to develop for. However with Xamarin the same can be said for .Net. With Xamarin you can develop for Mac OS X, Android, and iOS (try to write a program for iOS using Java, OK I know there are Java to Objective-C compilers out there, but they don't do a very good job). Of course you need to learn new APIs to develop for other platforms, but then again I have yet to be involved in any major project where I didn't need to learn some new APIs, the difference is that you can still leverage from the knowledge you already have invested in your language/framework of choice.
Last edited by Joacim Andersson; Aug 27th, 2013 at 04:30 AM.
Yes, you can write a Java program that runs on multiple platforms but only if you go for the least common denominator. Try for example to write a program that runs on Android in Java and then just move that to any other platform and it will fail (unless it's very basic), simply because you want to use the specific APIs that exists on the platform you're writing the code for. Actually the Android platform makes it even worse because of the many different devices that uses it. Just have a look in the Google Play store and see how many applications that exist in there that is only available for certain devices as opposed to any Android device.
I would not expect Android Java to be portable mainly because Android applications follow a specific model rather similar actually (amazingly?) to the model used by WinRT appplications. This is not how a "desktop" application's flow commences at all.
Conventional Java desktop (WIMP) applications and command line applications can be quite portable though. Probably the biggest platform difference for these is packaging for deployment. If you're willing to just drop a .JAR file somewhere and run that (no Start Menu shortcuts, no app data folders set up, etc.) then portability is almost a given. Such simple programs can be very useful, things on the level of most projects we get question threads on here which consist of a lot of personal use or limited shared in-house use.
It is quite true that every platform has differences that need attention if your program is to "look right" and act as users expect it to. Of course at the same time in question threads here people reveal that they routinely break Windows Guidelines left and right anyway even using Microsoft tools.
The biggest advantage Java has is that the language itself can take you anywhere. You aren't locked into a dying platform (WinPhone, WinRT, and Win8).
I work in an office full of women. Suffice it to say that it would have been innapropriate for me to stand up for at least 10 minutes after seeing that car. Nuff said?
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
The biggest advantage Java has is that the language itself can take you anywhere. You aren't locked into a dying platform (WinPhone, WinRT, and Win8).
Xamarin under the direction of Miguel de Icaza is hard at work to make that a reality for .Net languages as well though I suspect their strongest focus would be on C# but still.....
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
Xamarin under the direction of Miguel de Icaza is hard at work to make that a reality for .Net languages as well though I suspect their strongest focus would be on C# but still.....
It is already getting stable at 2.0 from what I've read and each app only adds about 5MB of bloat now if you can live with the "lightweight profile." That would add another option for mobile development, as long as users don't care about their precious storage real estate on mobile devices or the overhead of thunking between the Mono environment and the native environment.
It is already getting stable at 2.0 from what I've read and each app only adds about 5MB of bloat now if you can live with the "lightweight profile." That would add another option for mobile development, as long as users don't care about their precious storage real estate on mobile devices or the overhead of thunking between the Mono environment and the native environment.
Its a price I'd gladly pay to stick with something I'm familiar with. I'm not too keen on being forced one day to learn something like Objective-C. I looked that up upon a time and that language is strange as hell. Looks like one hell of a learning curve. No thank you. You do raise a good point though, users. Then again, they never care how stuff works, just that it works.
Never seen that. Looks interesting though. I'd place my bets on Xamarin however, Miguel is practically a superstar in the Mono community and has been in this cross-platform world ever since I can remember. He has lots of experience and he has a publicly available blog and you can tell from it that he is really passionate about this and knows quite a lot about how all these different platform work. In contrast, I know nothing about NSB or its developers. Maybe its someone out to make a quick dollar.
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
I would not expect Android Java to be portable mainly because Android applications follow a specific model rather similar actually (amazingly?) to the model used by WinRT appplications. This is not how a "desktop" application's flow commences at all.
So you agree that Java isn't portable on the largest growing platform in the world on which you just as well could develop your programs using .Net?
Originally Posted by dilettante
Conventional Java desktop (WIMP) applications and command line applications can be quite portable though.
Yawn.... Who cares? Nobody has during the last 10 years...
Originally Posted by dilettante
It is quite true that every platform has differences that need attention if your program is to "look right" and act as users expect it to. Of course at the same time in question threads here people reveal that they routinely break Windows Guidelines left and right anyway even using Microsoft tools.
Yupp, that's my point; you need to engage in the platform you develop for if you want to be successful. That people have broken guidelines is just proof of that point, how successful have they've been?
Originally Posted by dilettante
The biggest advantage Java has is that the language itself can take you anywhere. You aren't locked into a dying platform (WinPhone, WinRT, and Win8).
My point is that you cant! If you want to be successful on any platform you have to obey to the API of that specific platform. If you truly think that all Windows platforms are dying then I would sincerely advise you to make the move and change to the next success, if you think you know what that is.
I know Java and I've developed in that language since it appeared almost 18 years ago, that fact have never however driven me away from the MS platform nor hindered me from learning the .Net platform after I learned Java. I do some development in Python (though I have to say that that is not very much on a professional level). I make a pretty good living developing mainly on the Windows platform but I'm very well aware that that might change however I do not think that that change would be to Java. No way, no chance! If there will be a change then it will be a change but Java is most likely not the answer for that change.
Edit: Even though everything I said above is a direct response to dilettante I hope you understand that this is in no way an attack on him personally.
Last edited by Joacim Andersson; Aug 27th, 2013 at 04:24 PM.
Edit: Even though everything I said above is a direct response to dilettante I hope you understand that this is in no way an attack on him personally.
Sad what we've come to!
I sure didn't take it that way. Those are good points, well stated, that provide balance to my own comments.
My remarks about the "Win World" dying are a real concern I have. Things have changed a lot and the market doesn't seem to be embracing most of those changes. The big shifts have also come at a time when users are beginning to have real alternatives again, and may just walk out on Microsoft. The cozy Win/Mac duopoly shows some real weakness right now.
I can also say I have never been a fan of Java myself. But there are only just so many viable paths open today and you can't justify the time required to craft everything in C++. We have to keep our options open.
The cozy Win/Mac duopoly shows some real weakness right now.
The only real threat to this is the mobile market. Mobile devices may be ubiquitous right now but they're far from being able to replace the desktop. Word, Excel, Photoshop and high end games will keep the desktop viable for a while. Hard to imagine being productive with a word processor on an iPhone. Tablets are a bit of a wild card though.
The only thing that I believe truly rock the foundations of the desktop market is something like this:-
And I think we're at least 50 years away from that.
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
The only real threat to this is the mobile market. Mobile devices may be ubiquitous right now but they're far from being able to replace the desktop. Word, Excel, Photoshop and high end games will keep the desktop viable for a while. Hard to imagine being productive with a word processor on an iPhone. Tablets are a bit of a wild card though.
The only thing that I believe truly rock the foundations of the desktop market is something like this:
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
lol.....thought I was the dummy for missing some meaning in that post.
No, I'd seen a rant from somebody today defending staying on XP as long as possible, going to Win7 only 6 years from now, etc. and the reason was something like "Windows has become a poor platform for games, Mac never was, Linux is shunned by game vendors, and Android will never be a desktop OS no matter how popular it is."
No idea why I thought that was you except that he'd linked to the same YouTube video.
An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
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7,902
Re: Alternative to VB.net ?
Mobile devices may be ubiquitous right now but they're far from being able to replace the desktop
+1.
I can understand Dilitante's concern but I disagree with it... or at least I think it's overstated. Tablets, smart phones etc. may increasingly replace the desktop in the home user market but businesses still want bums on seats and PCs on desks. Tablets may out do desktops for information consumption (really only because they're more convenient) but they're rubbish for information production and management, that stuff's still going to happen in offices at desks, even if it's a home office. So while mobile may have taken some of the market from desktops it's a million miles from taking all or even most of it.
Oddly, if I were to predict the market that's likely to die I think I'd say it was mobile, at least in it's current state. Tablets, phones etc are actually still not great for information consumption, they're just the most convenient thing we've got right now. They're either too big to be comfortably carried or too small to be comfortably used. I can see far more scope for change in that form factor than I can see in the desktops form factor.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
The only real threat to this is the mobile market. Mobile devices may be ubiquitous right now but they're far from being able to replace the desktop.
I think you've been sleeping if you think this is true.
Market rejection of Windows 8 has been very high, exactly at the same time when users are learning to use alternative OSs on those mobile devices.
This does two things: (1.) it makes users less dependent on Windows and hesitant to consider alternatives, and (2.) it opens a new desktop OS opportunity for some competitor, something Linux never managed because it had no traction in getting mass market mindshare.
It may be far less about desktop workloads moving to mobile OSs than it is about mobile OSs moving to the desktop.
There are some pretty good alternatives to MS Office on iOS and Android right now. Either of those might make the jump to a desktop OS any time and I doubt these alternative suites will hesitate to support them when they do.
The Android-x86 project is at a state now where it works very well as a desktop OS on a system with no touchscreen. All that really needs to happen is broader hardware support (GPUs, some CPU features, etc.) and a blessing from Google. Then Google or a licensed 3rd party could start shipping a retail Android Desktop you can install in any x86 or x64 machine. Or they might release it for free.
This could easily become an attractive alternative to Windows on client systems for both home and business use.
(2.) it opens a new desktop OS opportunity for some competitor, something Linux never managed because it had no traction in getting mass market mindshare.......
The Android-x86 project is at a state now where it works very well as a desktop OS on a system with no touchscreen.
I think you're greatly underestimating Windows. Its a very big shoe for a competitor to fill. Windows 8 may have failed but you're forgetting that there is still Windows 7 and XP which I would consider two of the best desktop OSes around.
Part of the allure of Windows is how easy it is to configure and how user friendly it is. Linux for example has been said a few times to be developer centric. You have to get low and dirty to diagnose problems and configure it. Its not point and click/plug and play like Windows. Even me as a person with some background in the low and dirty wants nothing to do with any OS that requires this, not when there is something like Windows that automates all these things.
All I have to do to install a driver on Windows 7 these is to turn on the PC. As far as I understand, in Linux, you have to use all kinds of bizarre console commands and God forbid one of them gives you some kind of cryptic error message for getting something wrong. Then there is getting drivers for Linux, another headache. Windows is just way ahead in ease of use.
I don't know anything of Android but it is based on Linux so I'd expect the same wires and pliers ethic. What you're saying has merit no doubt, but I'm not holding my breath.
C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter
There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney
The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber
An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
Posts
7,902
Re: Alternative to VB.net ?
Market rejection of Windows 8 has been very high, exactly at the same time when users are learning to use alternative OSs on those mobile devices.
But your assumption is that people will try W8, not like the changes and immediately switch to a different platform entirely. I don't believe they'll do that. Rather they'll simply revert to the OS they had before and wait for the next version of Windows. Why would they baulk at the unfamiliar and move to something even more unfamiliar as a result?
For MS to get pushed out of the desktop market they will have to release several failures in a row. I used to think it would take 2 but with the ever more incremental aproach being taken to Windows releases I'm increasingly convinced it would need 3 or 4. For the average desktop user to move to a completely different platform they will have to feel that they're getting left completely behind and have no upgrade path available in Windows at all. I know folks who are still using XP and they still don't feel left out.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
I don't know anything of Android but it is based on Linux so I'd expect the same wires and pliers ethic. What you're saying has merit no doubt, but I'm not holding my breath.
It actually uses little except the Linux kernel and a few low level core libraries (libc), and isn't really much like a conventional "Linux distribution" at all. While it is extremely unlikely, Android could be released running on top of a BSD kernel or something else tomorrow. There is enough of Linux's core there to run some of the command line utilities if you add them and a few more low-level libraries but the average user would see the shell (command prompt) far less often than a casual Windows user - if ever.
Chrome OS is somewhat similar in construction at the low level, with even less likelihood of shell access.
Windows does have a legacy of experience in running on all sorts of hardware to benefit from. Driver support is indeed a strong point, and since Windows has had huge market share vendors are quick to make drivers available if the install media don't already have usable ones.
But the times they are a-changin' and I think you are overestimating Windows stranglehold on the desktop down the road. I don't expect it to disappear at all, just to lose more and more ground over time to alternatives.
But the times they are a-changin' and I think you are overestimating Windows stranglehold on the desktop down the road. I don't expect it to disappear at all, just to lose more and more ground over time to alternatives.
You should not forget that Windows was created for the desktop and is still the best tool you can use at work. Tablets are not an alternative when it comes to using a computer in your office. It is true that iPads and Android devices are becoming more and more widespread, but it is also true that they are not used to deal with office stuffs (e.g. to write complex documents, work with graphics or multimedia, manage huge amounts of data etc.).
The Mac is the only serious threat to the Windows monopoly of desktop computers. Thank God, for the moment it is too expensive to replace Windows. People know you can do the same things buying a Windows PC for half price.
Personally, I think that MS made a mistake when they tried to impose the Metro interface on the desktop version of Windows. Multi-tasking is one of the most useful tools that (classic) Windows makes available, and using apps in full-screen mode would mean to go back to the DOS era.
I am firmly convinced that the best strategy for MS should consist in optimizing the classic Windows OS also for the use on tablets. They should invest in developing more powerful hardware for the tablet market and, more importantly, they should reduce prices as much as they could. The dual-purpose cover/keyboard that Windows tablets are equipped with makes a tablet as useful as a desktop PC (because it allows you to get rid of the cumbersome virtual keyboard which "invades" a large part of the screen) provided that it runs the classic Windows OS.
If there were no differences between a desktop PC and a tablet, even in terms of prices, it would make a lot of sense to take Windows into serious consideration when deciding which tablet to buy. What a shame MS are too blind to see!
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
I forgot to add that the Microsoft Store (the only place where you can download your WinRT apps from) represents a serious disincentive when considering whether to buy a Windows RT device or not. People are used to buying software directly from private developers and this prevents them from considering Windows RT as an adequate tool to use at work.
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
You should not forget that Windows was created for the desktop and is still the best tool you can use at work. Tablets are not an alternative when it comes to using a computer in your office. It is true that iPads and Android devices are becoming more and more widespread, but it is also true that they are not used to deal with office stuffs (e.g. to write complex documents, work with graphics or multimedia, manage huge amounts of data etc.).
True today, perhaps not so much very soon. Android is still associated with mobile devices in the minds of most people but it is already on the edge of becoming the first viable Linux-based desktop OS ever.
Whether you visit the Java camp or the .Net camp you'll find that enterprise developers have a disdain for desktop development that is only growing as they start working more and more "in the cloud." If it were practical they'd make everyone just use a browser at the client, since that basically eliminates all client deployment issues as well as buying them a large amount client OS portability.
When a web browser isn't "rich enough" to do real work sustainably (perhaps the client machines must support specialized printers, scanners, or other less browser-friendly local hardware) they know they need an alternative, but it still won't be a "fat client" application if they can avoid it. They don't care whether the client OS is Windows or something else entirely though.
I suspect this is where Microsoft saw WinRT/Metro fitting in at the corporate level.
Conventional Windows Desktop programming will remain important to the home and small-office user for a while yet but they don't "drive the train." I.e. nobody considers their opinions or needs important. The leadership comes from the needs of the corporate market on the one hand and the mass consumer on the other. The little guy is merely along for the ride.
People are used to buying software directly from private developers and this prevents them from considering Windows RT as an adequate tool to use at work.
Again this isn't an issue for enterprise customers, who have a Microsoft-blessed way to support installing without going through the MS Store.
This only hits the little guy, and nobody cares about the little guy.
Again this isn't an issue for enterprise customers, who have a Microsoft-blessed way to support installing without going through the MS Store.
This only hits the little guy, and nobody cares about the little guy.
Enterprise customers buy customized software from private developers, so they need them more than the little guy does. Private developers are not cheap at all. On the contrary, they can make ends meet thanks to the software they develop for and sell to big companies.
Originally Posted by dilettante
True today, perhaps not so much very soon. Android is still associated with mobile devices in the minds of most people but it is already on the edge of becoming the first viable Linux-based desktop OS ever.
I haven't seen a single Android-based PC yet. Like WinRT, Android apps are usually run in full-screen mode, so they are not suitable for office work where multi-tasking is needed.
Originally Posted by dilettante
Whether you visit the Java camp or the .Net camp you'll find that enterprise developers have a disdain for desktop development that is only growing as they start working more and more "in the cloud." If it were practical they'd make everyone just use a browser at the client, since that basically eliminates all client deployment issues as well as buying them a large amount client OS portability.
Though it is convenient for a developer to create Web based applications, there is some software that only a fool would use in the cloud or on a tablet. I already mentioned complex documents, graphics and multimedia in my previous post, but I could also add a series of business applications that, in my opinion, should only be installed and used locally. For example, software to store and print out invoices (the risk of getting stuck if the connection goes down should be prevented) and accountancy applications in general.
Again, tablets are becoming more and more widespread but their use has little to do with office work. I believe that Windows Surface Pro is the best tool on the market, as it is both a tablet and a notebook, but its steep price makes it a niche product. If MS managed to sell Windows Surface Pro at no more than 299 euros, I feel they would become number one on the tablet market.
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
I think you are in denial about where the future is, but we're already so far off topic from the original question that it probably isn't worth discussing here further. Maybe another thread would be more appropriate but I doubt there is sufficient interest in anything except denial.
My own interest is in hedging my bets just in case things change radically in the direction of mobile-style OSs on the desktop, as they seem to be now.
My own interest is in hedging my bets just in case things change radically in the direction of mobile-style OSs on the desktop, as they seem to be now.
What evidence do you have to say that "now things are changing in the direction of mobile-style OSs on the desktop"?
The screenshot below shows the OS stats with reference to today's visits to my Web site. As you can see, 84% of the visitors use some version of Windows, 3.8% use Mac OSX, and only 9.8% use either a mobile device or a tablet. You can be sure that many of these users of tablets or mobile devices also have a PC at home.
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
Gosh, I guess your web site is not only the center of the universe but can predict the future. Sure proved me wrong!
Obviously, the visits to my Web site don't demonstrate anything. What I meant by showing those OS stats was that there are still a lot of people (for example, 84% of my visitors) who continue to use Windows. I think they still represent the majority worldwide, but I may be wrong. Please consider that I have been checking my OS stats for years and so far the trend has never changed significantly.
Your statement about the fact that "things seem to be changing in the direction of mobile-style OSs on the desktop" should be backed with statistics. As I said, I have never seen a desktop PC running Android. My personal opinion is that Android was designed for tablets and is not good on a desktop PC, where you have other needs (first of all, multi-tasking).
MS made a mistake when they tried to convince their customers that the Metro interface could make sense on a desktop PC. On the contrary, Apple never tried to merge iOS with OS X, simply because they understood that, when you are in your office sitting in front of your computer, you may want to keep three or four apps open at the same time.
While I believe that it would be very useful to have classic Windows running on a tablet (at a cheap price), I am convinced that WinRT is not fit for "office work". And neither are iOS or Android.
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
I guess you just don't know anything about Android. What makes you think it doesn't multitask applications? Since you clearly haven't bothered to look into the subject, how is "what you have seen" any proof of anything?
But there isn't much point in talking to you. Rather than even trying to participate in a discussion you just want to shout it down as loudly as you can. I suppose the prospect worries some people pretty badly.
I guess you just don't know anything about Android. What makes you think it doesn't multitask applications? Since you clearly haven't bothered to look into the subject, how is "what you have seen" any proof of anything?
But there isn't much point in talking to you. Rather than even trying to participate in a discussion you just want to shout it down as loudly as you can. I suppose the prospect worries some people pretty badly.
What evidence have you quoted to demonstrate that mobile style OSs are now populating desktop computers, apart from what you think? How many desktop PCs running Android have you seen so far?
I have two Android tablets and I'm unable to keep two windows open side by side at the same time. I thought "multi-tasking" should allow you to do something like that, but I'm probably missing something.
Since I discovered Delphi and Lazarus, VB has become history to me.
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I get it now 
I never mentioned being worried about any games.
