[RESOLVED] Robotics - Beginner Guide

[Nightwalker83]

Hi,

I have been wondering whether or not it is worth learning about robotic like what CVMichael has been doing! I am interested in the programming and how the robot actually carries out the instructions rather than the building of the robots themselves. What would be the best option to learn about the coding?

Thanks,


Nightwalker

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't think there is enough body of work out there, yet. Robotics is still a field where your imagination is the limit. I was working with the hardware side of robotics up to the point that I pretty well figured out what I could and couldn't do. Now I am solely working on the software, but it isn't following any guide except my own experience and imagination. You might consider looking at the various brain boards that are available, but those are becoming more .NET focused over time. For instance, the brain board from Robotics Connection has a full .NET library, so you can write for it on the computer and not worry about the robot side so much. Ultimately, robots are generally going to have very limitted on-board brains, if they are mobile, unless you provide them with significant power supplies. In my case, that pushed me to have the brain on a computer that communicates with the hardware via wireless.

And so on. Basically, it's still wide open.

[dilettante]

Most low-end robitics seems to involve kits that are fairly fixed-function.

A step above that you can find kits and assemble your own based on building blocks. These often use a microcontroller and you program them in fairly raw C or a "Tiny Basic" variety of control programming language. Doing much more than the fixed-function kits can be a lot of frustrating work. There is no OS and few OS-like functions in the available libraries, so you have to write quite a bit of fiddly low-level code.

Above that you can find a few, more expensive, setups based on a stripped Linux or WinCE. The WinCE packages often have the Compact Framework and have larger hardware requirements and cost than the Linux versions. I'm not sure what might be available anymore - they weren't too successful. The Linux setups typically rely on C or a scripting language, and in some cases a small JVM allowing a Java compiler to be used but providing a limited set of libraries.

From what I've read I'd guess that the actual automated probes which get sent into space are based on a real-time OS kernel and not Linux or WinCE. The actual programming probably consists of libraries written in C called by "programs" (really a list of functions called by the "executive" i.e. the kernel) that are either threaded code (a la Forth) or p-code (e.g. bytecode, IL, etc.). Both of those tend to be very compact compared to fully-compiled machine code.

Then above that you have people using full-blown OSs such as a complete Linux, BSD, or NT. These offer advantages in simplifying the programming, offering a vast array of libraries to do your heavy lifting as well as a wide choice of programming languages. They also support absurdly large RAM, CPUs, and mass storage. However nobody seriously does much robotics work this way, the stuff weighs too much (especially when you add in batteries), costs too much, tends to be fragile, and is more likely to fall over when you need it the most.


One way to get into it for cheap, assuming you already have a PC to do the coding and compiling on, was a device called the Spy Video Trakr. This was a "remote controlled car" sort of toy that could send video back to the controller. But there was also a sort of macro language to create simple programs ("missions") and an SDK to program it in more detailed fashion in C. It isn't on the market anymore, mainly because people lost interest when they found out how much work it was to really program the thing. You might pick up a unit for cheap on eBay or someplace though, I'm sure lots of them are being dumped by people who had no idea what they were buying. The SDK is still available for download:

http://www.spygear.net/help/apps.php

So your out of pocket cost ought to be well under $80 for the whole unit.

Anything more sophisticated is going to turn into a hobby for the "live in Mom's basement and she lets me use her credit card" set. Expect to invest well over $500 in hardware and tools just to get something basic going.

[Nightwalker83]

Now I am solely working on the software, but it isn't following any guide except my own experience and imagination.

Yes, that is the part I'm interested in mostly. Cool! I know CVMichael wrote the code for his robots in VB6. I saw a couple of You Tube videos with robots people had made that were scooting around the floor.

Edit:

One way to get into it for cheap, assuming you already have a PC to do the coding and compiling on, was a device called the Spy Video Trakr. This was a "remote controlled car" sort of toy that could send video back to the controller. But there was also a sort of macro language to create simple programs ("missions") and an SDK to program it in more detailed fashion in C. It isn't on the market anymore, mainly because people lost interest when they found out how much work it was to really program the thing. You might pick up a unit for cheap on eBay or someplace though, I'm sure lots of them are being dumped by people who had no idea what they were buying. The SDK is still available for download:

Thanks for the download! However, it says the code is in C and I don't know C I only come close with objective C which, I still find confusing at times.

[dilettante]

Yes, that is the part I'm interested in mostly. Cool! I know CVMichael wrote the code for his robots in VB6.

Are you sure about that?

All I saw was a kit-built thing that appears to use a pic microcontroller and very rudimentary programming.

[Nightwalker83]

Are you sure about that?

All I saw was a kit-built thing that appears to use a pic microcontroller and very rudimentary programming.

This is the part I was referring to:

You’ve downloaded the App Primer and now you have a great idea for a TRAKR app. It’s time to check out the TRAKR Codebook; a beginner’s guide to C programming for the Spy Video TRAKR. This downloadable PDF includes basic C programming vocabulary, TRAKR app examples, the TRAKR Function Reference, and some TRAKR code snippets.

I think I'm getting confused with something else.

[dilettante]

I guess you got lost in your quotes or something.

I see no evidence that CVMichael used VB6 for anything with his robot.

Yes, I understood that you feel C is too challenging right now for you. Sadly that's where most of the affordable robotics are right now.

Yes, there is Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio but (a.) you are getting into high hardware costs and a massive self-education investment, and (b.) the world has pretty much gone silent on this since 2009 or so.

[dilettante]

Hilarious!

The 2012 "big wiener" using MSRobDevStudio was "Smart Tripod"

This appears to be a stock Eddie Robot Platform that does all the work for $1249 (unassembled) after you add a laptop and about $1000 more in additional hardware...

... and what seems to be about 12 lines of code plus a bunch of stock stuff from the Kinect SDK.


Ok, it isn't trivial. If anything it gives you some idea of the challenges in doing anything significant though. And scary prices!

[Nightwalker83]

I guess you got lost in your quotes or something.

I see no evidence that CVMichael used VB6 for anything with his robot.

Yeah, I think it was his CNC machine I was thinking of.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yes, I understood that you feel C is too challenging right now for you. Sadly that's where most of the affordable robotics are right now.

That depends largely on what you consider affordable. You made the comment about living in Mom's basement and using her credit card, but some of us have disposable income, so it really kind of depends on perspective. I don't know what perspective either you or Nightwalker have in that regards. It certainly CAN get expensive, especially since you tend to accumulate stuff and some of that stuff is junk. For instance, I think I have about $350 worth of SRF08 sensors. They looked really cool, at first. My first tests looked really nice, which is why I bought a bundle of them (7). It was only after I had bought them all and began some more serious experiments that I found out that most of their readings were junk or side lobes. I'm not sure that I wasted the whole $350, but I sure wasted most of it.

On the other hand, the RoboticsConnection platform, which may or may not be available down under, is less than $200, I think, and it is based on a .NET library, so you don't have to deal with directly programming the PIC chip that makes up the core of the brainboard. The OOPic board had a VB6 programming interface, but the board is now defunct as far as I can tell, and the RoboticsConnection one is easier anyways. There is another chip out there with a .NET interface, though I forget exactly one. It may be the arduino.

[CVMichael]

I just saw this thread... I am not on vbforums lately, especially since they changed the interface, and also since the forum became so slow...

Anyways... next time PM me, so that I get an email.

About when I used VB6... it was for my first CNC, and for my second CNC, I used VB.NET.

For my first robot, I did not have a program on the computer, I only programmed the microcontroller in C (using mikroC PRO compiler)

For my second robot, which right now it's not really a robot (but it will be). Again, only a program for the microcontroller (using mikroC PRO for PIC32). BUT... this is just the beginning. I will add another layer on top of the chassis, and on top of that I will put a motherboard, with CPU & RAM, and an SSD hard drive, I will install Windows on it, and I will program the computer in VB.NET that will "talk" with the micro-controllers on the chassis giving instructions what to do, and also the micro-controllers will give the computer information from the sensors. So the computer will be attached/will be part of the robot.
If you want to see pics for my second robot, check post #43 and 45 over here: http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/sh...t=74661&page=5

By the way... about your original question, check this out: http://www.robotshop.com/ca/robot-kits.html

I bought the motors and wheels for my second robot from this site, and I plan to get more stuff from them soon. The only thing I don't like about this site is that it is quite expensive. Customer service is great though (when you have questions or some kind of problems)

By the way... if you plan to get to get into this... also consider that you probably will have to spend a few thousands of dollars per year. I started my hobby about 5-6 years ago, and I spent at least $10,000 for electronics parts, all kinds of tools, and software (the compilers).

[dilettante]

You need space for these projects too, there is usually a lot of mechanical work and fabrication. This means bench space and tools of course but also room to let piles of stuff sit - either boxed up or laying out until you get back to it.

Most of these projects won't be completed in a few nights on the kitchen table.

There is always another must-have tool, etc. and you end up with a lot of sunk costs. Ebay and garage sales only help dispose of the odd item here and there, so expect to accumulate quite a pile of "stuff" over time. A friend of mine has at least 3 Arduinos and a Raspberry Pi just sitting until he "can get around to repairing them" where he's blown various components on them, wrecked pins, etc.

Of course even near-pure software projects can lead to a virtual version of "Fibber McGee's Closet." I truly dread each Windows reinstall and put them off for years to avoid all of the sorting and sifting (not to mention reinstalling software tools).

[Shaggy Hiker]

For my second robot, which right now it's not really a robot (but it will be).

Yeah, I've been saying that for a couple years now. Of course, in my case, the hardware is entirely secondary to the software, and I'm making progress on that, but it still leaves an open ended time frame.