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  1. #41
    Moderator.NET kleinma's Avatar
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    It uses the smaller sized tiles and it places the icon for the app in the tile, along with text of the program name.

    Here is an example on one of my dev boxes, I grouped my Office apps and my Visual Studio apps into named groups in the metro start screen.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    I see. I have to say those tiles don't look too bad.

    Thanks a lot.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    From about post #31 onward we've sort of drifted. Might it make sense to trim those to make a separate thread?

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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    From about post #31 onward we've sort of drifted. Might it make sense to trim those to make a separate thread?
    Isn't the installation of legacy apps on Metro connected with how Metro works?
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  5. #45
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    I think the posts in here still are related to the original topic.
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  6. #46
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    1) Anyone buying Windows 7 right now gets an upgrade to Windows 8 (i think either free or 15 dollars)
    2) Anyone with Windows XP or higher can get the upgrade version for 40 bucks
    3) It will be released on 3 form factors of tablet, laptop, and desktop
    4) Metro aside, there have been many improvements to the desktop experience and underlying archetecture of Windows (task manager, file copy, drive storage pools, acct sync across devices, etc..)
    5) It boots faster, runs faster, and uses less memory than Win7
    6) Any hardware that was compatible with Vista should work fine, and most stuff from the XP era will also work assuming 64 bit drivers were made at some point for Vista/Win7
    7) For the first time ever, Microsoft is making their own hardware PC device that will come without a bunch of bloatware like your standard Dell and HP system
    8) The only real alternative is to get a Mac, and for compatibility or price reasons, that might not be a valid option.
    These are all good arguments, particularly 1,2 and 3 because they focus on the marketting aspect of the release rather than the technical, but this
    most of the criticism I have read is based on bad or just wrong information
    is irrelevant. The market isn't rational and won't behave as such. If the bad press builds up enough of a head of steam (which it seems like it has) then the market will relish the failure of W8. And if W8 doesn't give a good cause for that failure the market will simply invent one. That's why I was quite careful to distinguish between a weak release and a product that was technically weak. It won't matter if the product is the best thing since sliced bread technically, if the market wants it to fail then it will fail.

    That failure doesn't mean poor sales for MS (as I said, that would take 2 or 3 weak releases), it just means enough bad press so that the linux and/or apple communities can fold their arms and smugly declare "I told you so".
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Well the criticism I have read has really been from people in the tech community (who again, I feel are misinformed or making judgements without actually trying it) and not the "market" itself.

    The sad reality is a huge chunk of the computer buying population has 0 clue about versions of anything. They think Windows and Office are the same thing. You ask them what OS they run and they say "Microsoft Word 2005". So they will just go out and buy a PC or a Mac, and get whatever OS comes on it. After Oct 26th, that will all be Windows 8 on the PC side of things.

    So I don't think the market wants it to fail. I think the anti-Microsoft people want it to fail. Just like the pro microsoft people want to see Apple and Google make missteps along the way. You have to remember there are almost NO people using OSX or Linux because they HAVE to. The market share is such that those people are using it because they WANT to. However with Windows and its monster maketshare, there are plenty of people who are using windows because they HAVE to, and those are the people I see complaining the most, but they always did.

    I think once it comes out, many of the fears these people had will be found to be baseless. Windows 8 in the consumer preview certainly has a few rough edges, and I don't expect them ALL to be ironed out by RTM, as this is a somewhat major change to the UI and underlying OS, but each iteration that came out in beta format had so many pain points tweaked for the better, that I do have some faith that the RTM will be even better than the current build I am running. The rest will come in service packs, or I am sure for certain major things, Windows 9.

    I know MS is planning some sort of tutorial for users when they first load up windows 8 to try to avoid confusion with how the start screen works and what you can do with it.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    I and others I know and work with have tried each release from the Dev Preview onward on both desktops and touch-screen tablets. Saying our opinions are uninformed is less than a straw man argument.

    You may have part of the picture pegged when you talk about the anti-Microsoft crowd. But assuming that's the full story is a little naive.

    You can find a few Windows Phone fans too if you look hard enough. Windows 8 on the other hand might have the advantage of no serious desktop competition, leaving people stuck with trying to sqeeze lemonade when it becomes the only game in town. That may be the best hope for the Win8 boosters whistling in the dark.

    I'm still hoping it dies, but at the same time I'm preparing in case it doesn't.

  9. #49
    Moderator.NET kleinma's Avatar
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Windows Phone might not have the numbers of iPhone and Android, but I have not yet met someone with a windows phone that didn't like it.

    Interestingly enough, here are some figures about the release of devices and their uptake:
    http://gadgetix.com/2012/07/20/nokia...ines-together/

    Granted that more people than ever are buying smart phones now than a few years back, but the numbers are there none the less.

    I am not sure as to what you are hoping 'dies' though. You are hoping metro/WinRT dies? That isn't going to happen. Perhaps some refinements with regards to switching between destop and metro mode and other ways to ease you around to the various apps, but this stuff is not going to "go away".

    I also wasn't saying you were uninformed. I don't recall you posting any arguments in here against Win8 did you? What specifically do you not like?
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  10. #50
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm still hoping it dies, but at the same time I'm preparing in case it doesn't.
    Windows 8 won't die and I am willing to bet that there will be substantially less negative consumer press about it than there was for Windows Vista. Windows 8 is too much like Windows 7 to fail.

    I'm sure that last sentence will get hammered, but let me just say that for the *consumer* the statement is very true. Yes, you start by seeing a Metro interface first (much faster than you see the desktop in WIndow 7). If you then click on the desktop icon you are back to being very close to a consumer experience in Windows 7.

    Ahh.. but no star menu you say.... True, but how many consumers use the start menu versus an icon on their desktop? If you put the icon on the desktop it works just like... an icon on the Windows 7 desktop.

    I won't say that Windows 8 is perfect. It's not. I will say that I get where it is going. I see what is happening to the underlying platform. I see the context in which people are using their computers. When you look at the overall picture of the industry, you see that there is a paradigm shift happening. Windows 8 is getting closer to that shift than other platforms.

    I'd also say that I think it is Android and Google that have more to gain in the long run with a Windows 8 failure than Apple or Linux. While the Apple and Linux people might jump for joy, I don't think they will gain any marketshare that Microsoft might lose.

  11. #51
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by kleinma View Post
    Windows Phone might not have the numbers of iPhone and Android, but I have not yet met someone with a windows phone that didn't like it.
    I've met one. Only one. I don't remember what the issue was.

    I've met dozens who have griped about their iPhones, and a few who gripe about Android.
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  12. #52
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    I've met one. Only one. I don't remember what the issue was.

    I've met dozens who have griped about their iPhones, and a few who gripe about Android.
    I honestly haven't gotten to play with it a ton because I am on verizon and they never got a WinPhone worth getting. I am sure that will change with Win8, and I will get rid of my iPhone 4s and get a Windows 8 phone to go with my galaxy S3 (I have work and personal phones).

    Once nice moment was when I was at the MVP summit this year and during a "lunch in your session room" Anders (the guy who created TurboPascal, Delphi, and C# for anyone who doesn't know him) decided to sit at my table and when we were talking about WinPhone, he tossed his across the table for me to play around with. I was tempted to see if there was any top secret info coming into his mailbox, but refrained from snooping
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    No, I'm being careful to refrain from saying anything anti-Metro in this forum.

    For one thing the waters here are pre-chummed (look at the reaction!), for another this forum needs to help developers cope with Metro. So such discussions here are just as off-point as so many inflammatory issues in software development and will merely get in the way of the mission.

    Sorry I rose to the bait, unintentional as it may have been. But it is hard to let some statements go unchallenged.

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    Re: How does Metro work?

    I would prefer you to say anti-Metro comments if you have a basis for saying them. Metro is not perfect by any means and the way we learn to make it work better is to better know how it works. Stating issues or even opinions will help. It might be that we should create a few threads to discuss various aspects.

    Regardless, we'll all better understand what we can do with Metro if we look at it from all angles - both good and bad.

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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Well the criticism I have read has really been from people in the tech community (who again, I feel are misinformed or making judgements without actually trying it) and not the "market" itself
    I think you're right that it's coming from the tech community and your probably right that much of it is missinformed too... but the market does listen to to the tech community and, even if they don't understand whet the tech community is actually saying they do tend to pick up on the vibe.

    The sad reality is a huge chunk of the computer buying population has 0 clue about versions of anything. They think Windows and Office are the same thing. You ask them what OS they run and they say "Microsoft Word 2005". So they will just go out and buy a PC or a Mac, and get whatever OS comes on it. After Oct 26th, that will all be Windows 8 on the PC side of things.
    I laughed at this because it's absolutely true and describes my family to a tee. But it's also the reason that the market listen to the tech community. They know they don't know what they're buying so they just go with what's easy to buy. That's why MS can afford 2 or 3 "bad" releases. But after 2 or 3 the drip, drip effect of the tech community bad mouthing MS would start to become enough to convince the market at large to start loking at the alternatives.

    I think the anti-Microsoft people want it to fail.
    Yes but I don't think it's just limited to them. We all like to see the big boy's get taken down a peg or two from time to time. I've got to admit, I do harbour a secret desire to see W8 be a disaster and will gleefully gossip at the water cooler if it does. It's not a rational desire and I will freely admit it's an uninformed one. And it doesn't come from hating microsoft either, I'm far more pro-microsoft than I am linux (which I view as being for pompus techies who aren't in touch with the real world) or apple (which I view as a fisher-price my-first-computer operating system for people with no technical understanding). And that last sentence should reveal how schizophrenically irrational I actually am. Google Chrome never even made it on to my radar. In fact, I revel in my own ignorance - it helps me empathise with the market.

    No, for me the desire to see W8 be a disaster comes purely from that dark and ugly side of the human psyche that like to see bubbles burst and egos popped. I just like to see the big guys fail every so often. And I'm not alone in that.

    I am willing to bet that there will be substantially less negative consumer press about it than there was for Windows Vista
    Now that's a brave statement. Mind you, Vista set the bar pretty high so perhaps you're right.

    Ahh.. but no star menu you say.... True, but how many consumers use the start menu versus an icon on their desktop? If you put the icon on the desktop it works just like... an icon on the Windows 7 desktop.
    I think my fear of this is that I like to keep my desktop fairly clear. I'm the same with my actual desktop too. I hate having piles of paper floating around it so I file everything away, it helps me feel organised. A cluttered desk, a cluttered mind and all that. The removal of the start menu sounds to me like the bolshy office manager just walked into my office, announced loudly that I'm not allowed to used the filing cabinet anymore and just dumped 6 years of paperwork onto my desk. I struggle to see how the desktop is an alternative to the start menu but, as I'm happy to admit, I haven't tried it so maybe there's a great alternative built in.

    It might be that we should create a few threads to discuss various aspects.
    I agree. A couple sprung up in chit chat and were pretty healthy but this would be a much better home for some serious discussion.
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  16. #56
    Moderator.NET kleinma's Avatar
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    No, I'm being careful to refrain from saying anything anti-Metro in this forum.

    For one thing the waters here are pre-chummed (look at the reaction!), for another this forum needs to help developers cope with Metro. So such discussions here are just as off-point as so many inflammatory issues in software development and will merely get in the way of the mission.

    Sorry I rose to the bait, unintentional as it may have been. But it is hard to let some statements go unchallenged.
    I might rebuke some statements if they are factually incorrect, however opinions don't fall into that category, and there won't be any sort of flame war starting up here. At the end of the day, I just like Windows 8 and the direction it is going, so if I seem to defend it, it is really just against the inaccurate information I have seen talked about. If criticism is something along the lines of "they should allow you to boot to the desktop" then that would be something I would look at as valid criticism, and probably something I agree with. It is really just the "Win8 will fail because its horrible" comments, which have 0 context to be valid, or "there is no start button" which I guess is true, but such a ridiculous argument that it is just silly. Things like "I don't want a tablet OS on my desktop" is unfounded because it is not a tablet OS, it is just an OS that supports both desktop and tablet.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    My opinion is that there is a generally negative expectation on the part of consumers. What I have read in this thread makes me considerably more positively disposed towards Win8, though I'm in no position to do anything about it either way. In my case, the work system isn't one I can change, while the home system....could run anything that can run .NET, for the most part.

    Still, it does make me want to try it. Perhaps I will get around to picking up a copy when I set up a new system, but that will not be for months, at this rate. Sounds much more promising, though.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Still, it does make me want to try it. Perhaps I will get around to picking up a copy when I set up a new system, but that will not be for months, at this rate. Sounds much more promising, though.
    Get a copy on a USB stick in a "Windows To Go" format. That is going to the be the slick way to try it out without doing all the work of installing and upgrading. Stick in a USB stick, boot to it, and yowzer it runs. It is a little self contained system on a thumbdrive.

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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by brad jones View Post
    Get a copy on a USB stick in a "Windows To Go" format. That is going to the be the slick way to try it out without doing all the work of installing and upgrading. Stick in a USB stick, boot to it, and yowzer it runs. It is a little self contained system on a thumbdrive.

    http://www.codeguru.com/blog/categor...-of-fries.html
    Hopefully a USB3 thumb drive in a USB3 port

    This is actually similar to my home setup. Currently I run Win7 x64 for my core development and other things that don't yet work in Win8 in the beta. So I had an extra 80GB SSD sitting around, and got a eSATA external USB powered case for it, and I plug that in when I want to boot to Win8 for metro development and beta testing.
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Windows (at least before Win8 "To Go") doesn't install as a flash-memory safe configuration.

    Do you know whether Win8 To Go deals with this? Does it kill paging, indexing, background defragging, etc. that tend to tear up a default Windows install's system drive (when on flash media)? Or does it ask for space on the host system's hard drive for such things and relocate the I/Os there?

    Or perhaps it relies on the same sort of "SSD Detection" heuristics that Win7 uses? Win7 auto-tweaks many of those things when it decides the system drive is "SSD" (basically random I/O tests show a certain speed I guess). Part of the tweaking is the Trim vs. delete setting that saves on flash/SSD wear. I'm not sure that had been added yet in Vista, and I'm pretty sure XP never got it.

    In other words how safe is it and what does it require of the host hardware? Anyone have real expereince with it yet?


    It's also an Enterprise feature, so I'm not sure what that means for post-preview Win8 for a lot of people.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 27th, 2012 at 06:35 PM.

  21. #61
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Do you know whether Win8 To Go deals with this?
    I snipped a lot of what you asked.

    I know that Win2Go requires a USB 3.0 drive and that there were only 2 such drives that were certified to be good enough to actually work. I would assume that Microsoft has taken care of some of the thrashing and such to reduce wear on the drive. Even so, the average USB drive would still get chewed to bits by running a system off of it. That is why only certain USB drives will be certified.

    I also know that the device will use the computer's processors, peripherials, and such, but will not use the hard drive. From a booted Win2Go system, you can see that a harddrive exists on teh main system, but you have absolutely no access to it. There is a bit of an expectation that if you are using Win2Go, then you are likely to be storing all your data in the Cloud.

    I made a few comments in my blog post on the topic (link in previous post). I can try to find out more if there is interest.

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    Re: How does Metro work?

    Really strange that these 'metro' threads just don't get any input ?

    I've never really looked at it yet but think it's about time that I did. Would somebody tell me if I've grasped the 'gist' of it.

    1. We can use VS2012 to develop metro style apps.
    2. All metro style apps must be signed and deployed via the MS App Store.
    3. Companies who develop their own internal metro style apps can deploy them internally to their own employees without using the MS Appstore using some process called Side Loading ? (SideWinding or something like that that)
    4. In order to run unsigned metro apps (presumably a developer who needs to test his app before deployment) can register for a FREE developer license which allows the user to run unsigned metro style apps without going through the app store.


    My conclusion - if all of the above is true - is that everyone, and his dog, will simply register for the above mentioned 'free' developer license allowing them to run unsigned metro apps. Of course they won't be 'protected' by MS and we'll have to use our own judgement just like we do now when downloading apps from the internet. So, basically, I can simply start selling metro apps from my website because everyone will be able to run unsigned apps anyway.

    Or - if MS notice that everyone - and his dog - are registering for free developer licenses will they do something to prevent everyone - especially dogs, from registering for a free developer license. ?

  23. #63
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    If you wanted to start selling an application, then expecting people to have a developers license obtained via Visual Studio, would be expecting a lot. Someone isn't going to jump through that type of hoop to play a simple game or run a simple application.

    Besides - why not go through the store and make distribution easier? Yes, there is a small fee, but you also get your application reviewed (call it free testing).

    This model of distribution is quickly becoming standard. Think about history -- you used to distribute by making copies and install programs onto 5-1/4 floppies. Eventually this gave way to 3-1/2" disks. Later these were replaced by CDs and finally DVDs for larger apps. As is obvious, all of these mediums are fading into history with digital downloads being next.

    Granted, it seems like it would be easier to let people download from your; however, I don't know you. As such, I'm less likely to trust you. I do trust Google Play, iTunes, and the Microsoft Store, so if your app is there, I'm going to assume it is virus free and vetted for my use. As such, I'm going to download the app, but I'm going to download it from a safe location. As a consumer of other people's apps, I'm going to want to use trusted sources. As a developer, I want people to know my apps can be trusted.

    Thus the new model replaces the old. CDs replaced diskettes. .NET replaced a lot of native apps. Evolution continues. You can embrace it or fight it.

    These are, of course, just my opinions at the moment!
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  24. #64
    New Member port12345's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
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    Re: How does Metro work?

    I also believe C++/CX is the language extension designed to support the WinRT API.

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