Questions about Programming in General

[TrickyNick]

Back when I was barely an adult (age 16-17) I went to a tech school for programming. I didn't know a lick about computers or programming, but I know since I was in elementary school (3rd grade) I wanted to be a programmer.

After I graduated from there, the school hired me to be their program assistant, to help because the teacher that was teaching after I graduated didn't know windows programming (VB, QBasic, etc) and they needed help.

That's the extent of my programming background. Fastword some 18+ years (I'm 34 now) and I want to get back into programming. I really haven't been keeping up to date with everything, but I have done some VB.Net 2010 programming, and still enjoying it but know my skills are lacking compared to where other people my age are with their skills.

Anyways, what should someone my age do to get back into programming advance his skills and try his best to catch up to his peers?

I seem to prefer VB over anything C (C, C++, C#, etc) as I never really liked C when I went to the tech school.

EDIT:
I've always done webpages in ASP (not .net) as well and, here at work, VBA stuff with Excel.

EDIT 2:
Also, there's a big university here that does offer programming I think, but not 100%. It's NSUOK.

[Hack]

What programming opportunities are available through your job? What development platforms are the programmers using?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Are you thinking of hobby programming or paid work? If you are interested in hobby programming, I would suggest that you might look into robotics, as it is a field with near infinite potential.

[TrickyNick]

As for my job, at this moment no programming jobs, it's all outsourced for applications that were used. That being said, my call center is being sold from the company that owns it now (a rental car company) to a true call center, and my job will be going to the new employers. At this time I don't know much about the new company to know what jobs are/will be available there. One of the new applications that they recently brought in was made using .Net. I only know this because they didn't bother to change the default icon lol

I'm looking for paid work, even though I find programming challenging at times I still find it enjoyable.

[szlamany]

My world has evolved into

Javascript/jQuery front end browser - against VB.Net web services.

I don't think I'll ever go back to anything else - it's a far superior AND FULLY IN CONTROL method of delivering robust database applications.

My two cents

[gautamshaw]

I started .Net programming when i was in 3rd year of my engineering. After completing the final year, i joined a reputed MNC where i am working in Java. After learning fair amount of .Net, it was really frustrating for me to learn java again. But thats the way things will go. You cant say that you will work only in one technology. I have also seen many of my friends who used to work in mainframes(especially COBOL and NATURAL) were transferred into Java projects where they started again from writing the first "Hello World" program. Thats the way things will go on in IT and you wont even get an option to make a selection of in which technology you want to work on with. All depends on the business requirements

[gautamshaw]

I never really liked C when I went to the tech school.

Same here, i also never liked C. But anyways, almost 95% of programmers start writing their 1st Hello world program in C

[dilettante]

I doubt that. By sheer numbers it would probably be Office VBA or VBScript or something hugely available to people. I suspect 95% of programmers have never written one line of C.

[gautamshaw]

I doubt that. By sheer numbers it would probably be Office VBA or VBScript or something hugely available to people. I suspect 95% of programmers have never written one line of C.

It will vary from place to place(or from school to school). At our place, C is the language one learns at 8th standard in the blue turbo C compiler, till that time someone has hardly heard terms like VBA or VBScript.

This said, the figures i mentioned in my previous posts may be wrong

[techgnome]

62% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyways... But I'd say it's probably closer to 60% of developers today that have never written a single line of C/C++ ... And that number will probably increase over time. That's assuming you don't count C# as part of that C family... it's debatable.

-tg

[szlamany]

62% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyways...

[TrickyNick]

My general question wasn't really answered then again, didn't really ask my true question.

Should I go about enrolling at the local university or learn on my own? Throughout the years, I've learned that I learn better with a mix of learn on my own and traditional school methods. I learn slower if just one. It's kind of hard to know what I should do.

Below is a link to the current comp sci course offered by the local university.
http://catalog.nsuok.edu/preview_pro...4&returnto=217

How does it compare to the real world, are they all good courses to take and get my skills back up?

When it comes to the elective parts of the course, which would benefit me most?

Don't know why,and my non-programming co-workers think I'm crazy that I consider programming fun, but frustrating when it doesn't do what you want it to do. I'd like to get back into a field I will enjoy doing.

[dilettante]

That is a B.S. program, and requires a serious 4 (if not 5) year commitment. And as such, it is most certainly not about "learning to program."

If you go into it expecting that you may be horribly frustrated by what they are trying to teach you, which is primarily Computer Science (not programming) but also a well-rounded generalized education.

But this is a good thing. It just requires commitment.


Sadly, it seems fairly weak as a Computer Science program. It places way too much emphasis on vocational topics, and the sole Discrete Math course is in the Math Dept. (where the topic typically is not well understood anyway). I don't see course sequences where you're required to actually develop an operating system and a compiler. Instead there is wacky stuff like "Web Applications" which is hardly a college-level topic.

None of that is their fault though I suppose. Market forces have driven Computer Science to dumb so much down, and perhaps they work hard to make these courses do some good. No, I can't blame them. This may be fairly decent as such things go these days.

Normally there are about 2 years of general education requirements as well, with specific requirements for the specific college/department. Probably math through calculus, some general Humanities, English, social sciences, etc. Ahh, I see it, or at least part of it:

http://catalog.nsuok.edu/content.php...d=7&navoid=175


No, depending on your age, ability to commit the time required, and ability to afford it... you might be far better off with a 2-year trade school or community college program. That's probably twice as true if what you want is some programming education.

[TrickyNick]

Sorry, I do ramble from time to time...think I did so here too, but please do read.

I've been to a community college when I was in Florida and most of my general requirements should transfer over. Think they said like 35 credits would, but it's been several years since I last really looked into it.

When I look for jobs in whatever source I'm looking at they all require a degree or experience in exchange for it. I have neither and so would require the degree to get a job.

Are there any reputable online schools you'd recommend that would get me training that I would need to get my skills up and get a degree so that I could actually attain a job w/o experience?

I'm 34, time to commit is alright, I probably wouldn't be able to do full time student, but will start out part time and go up from there if I like it. Programming classes at the community college I went to were far too easy, I was completed with all assignments well before mid-term. I still went as I had to, but rarely paid attention. The professor didn't seem to mind, he would often call on me to verify stuff (mostly cause I've corrected him in front of the class....twice) and always needed him to repeat himself.

Basically, I want a programming job where I develop programs. I don't want to work for a call center for the rest of my life. Even though programming can be frustrating, I enjoy it.

[dilettante]

I do feel your pain.

It has actually always been tough to get a programming job without connections, as true here as for any career. And at this point you'd face age discrimination as well going for any entry-level position.

Offshore diploma mills where they've coached the heck out of people who have indentured themselves to the parent company/secret partner of the school make it harder to find jobs. These places "buy low" and promise results by promising to throw a "Chinese Army" (no offense to China, just an outdated idiom) of bodies at problems.


Yes, a lot of your community college work may transfer, and that helps a bit. Without a full time commiment though... university courses might not be your answer. I have no experience with any online schools, but are you sure "reputable" is an appropriate word in this context?


Truthfully, when it comes to actual programming the very best courses are usually intensive short courses. Often these are by the vendor or a 3rd party training company partnered with the vendor.

These are usually 4 to 5 days in length, narrowly focused, and quite intensive. The washout (get nothing out of it) rate is very high for those who enroll without the recommended prerequisites, so don't aim too high - follow the recommended sequences. They are sometimes called "boot camps" and tend to be pretty good at lecture, self-study homework each night, hands-on during the class, and instructors who can actually answer questions. And you may have fellow students who make good contacts, just don't press them about forking over email/phone info or badger them about job openings where they work.

I've been through such courses by Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Unisys, and other large outfits (or their 3rd party proxies). The really tough part? Well, unless you are on one of the coasts these are hard to find, and only offered when some customer is willing to host one and send 5 to 15 students. When I got lucky they were in town, but I've often had to travel hundreds of miles to a training center.


But even then without "going home" and putting it into practice you can't get very far. The class can only get you bootstrapped. It helps if you already have a job to return to and start applying what you've learned.


Sometimes you have to "settle" to get your foot in the door. Back in the day (old fart here) I ended up taking a job that was 90% dealing with network cabling and carrying terminals around replacing failed units, installing new ones, etc. (no PCs in those days). The 10% involved programming and programming consulting to the "business coders" who had come out of diploma mills.

It was several years before I "graduated" to full time programming, and it was a gradual process.

[dilettante]

This looks like one example of a Micrososft Training Partner:

http://www.cedsolutions.com/training...ningClass=.net

[TrickyNick]

Long story short, I'm at a dead-end job that was just bought out by a call center business. I will be doing exactly what I am doing now, only getting paid by the new company.

This new company, I haven't a clue what they will have available. They are a call center business and have call centers throughout the world. I'm sure they have an IT department but don't know where or if each call center has one of their own. I'm thinking that might be my ticket into getting my foot into the door so-to-speak. Might not be programming, but will be in the IT area.

But does it basically mean I'm SOL about landing a programming job because of my age?
Should I attempt at getting the BS degree?

[dilettante]

But does it basically mean I'm SOL about landing a programming job because of my age?

Not at all, perhaps just harder.

Should I attempt at getting the BS degree?

Never hurts to explore it. You might want to get hold of somebody there in a counseling capacity first and discuss how practical this is with your time constraints.

[TrickyNick]

I guess I should do that on Monday my next night off.

With what you know about me, what would you recommend I do to start getting experience and getting my foot in the door?

I don't have any degrees or certifications in any field. Well, I do have certificates of completion from a tech school I went to, but don't think it's worth much nowadays.

[dilettante]

I suppose that ideally you'd find somebody who could hire you to do something you already know. I'm thinking of something more like a very small shop or even one guy who has contracts coming in and has a way to pay you and is willing to take on an apprentice of a sort, for low pay and a recommendation.

But I know that can be unrealistic too. Unless you have somebody like that in the family or your family's circle of friends...


I'm not sure sure about the idea of picking random training first, but you have defined a small universe already as "VB" so perhaps that's worth exploring. I seriously doubt those "U-Rent-Coder" sites will help, but it'd be great if they provided a forum for proven programmers to find each other and regular "buyers" of their services.

Regular full time employment seems pretty thin on the ground around here though.


Maybe try scouring the local Yellow Pages and the Web trying to find smaller ISPs and software houses in your area? Lots of ISPs may either provide their commercial customers with Web development services or be willing to refer such work to people with a track record. There are also smaller software companies that specialize in vertical lines of business (education, accounting, law enforcement, etc.) or product lines (graphics).

But I'm just throwing out ideas assuming you've investigated traditional ways of finding work already.

[TrickyNick]

I've done some research on jobs. One thing I've found out, I'm not getting one here where I live. I'll need to at least move to Tulsa or OKC for even the smallest of chances for true programming work.

There aren't any ISPs in my area, they are mostly in Tulsa. There are a lot of businesses here, restaurants, vets (like 3 or 4 of them), and some others. Don't think they have any web presence, but that being said, I don't consider that true programming work and I couldn't draw a straight line to save my life.

This is what I was thinking...

Go to the university here, get my degree, once I have my degree start looking outside Oklahoma. Look towards Texas or even go West Coast but that would mean a crap-ton of competition as well. I won't go East Coast, been there, done that, too many hurricanes.

[dilettante]

It's rough. I have a son out of work right now myself.

[TrickyNick]

Yeah, I know a few people who graduated from the university and are looking for jobs outside of the state.
I only know their type of degree, Comp Sci, but I don't know the specific, whether or not they were into programming, networking, or what-have-you. Just know they aren't having any luck even finding intern positions.


Guess computers is a hard field to get into nowadays and I missed my shot when I was young, but personal problems arose and had to take care of them. Still not fully taken care of, but it's under control now. *Sighs*

Just wish I didn't get out of the field right after my "teaching" job. Note, at the tech school where I first learned to program they had great teachers, but after I graduated, they quit the teaching job and went full time with their 2nd job. They only had 1 teacher left but he was mainframe & couldn't teach windows, so they brought me in to teach, but without a degree, they instead created a position for me so that I could be in that room to teach the students. A good number of my students left knowing more than I did.

[Shaggy Hiker]

A few of us got into it by accident. I'm a fish biologist with a BS and MS in biology type things. I started coding as part of my job when in south Florida, then got hired for more of the same. Eventually, I switched over to writing programs to manage fish data. It's a strange path, but the point is that I have zero degrees or class time in anything computer related, but was in a field where the amount of data was high, and the number of people who could code was low. I'm a bit surprised that I was allowed to move over, considering the lack of degrees, but by that time they were kind of hiring me to maintain the programs I had already written, so they couldn't deny that I could do the work.