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Thread: WHY is our government involved in education?

  1. #41
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman239 View Post
    I just don't think the government knows enough about an effective education to regulate education. Besides, now they have rules regarding what parents can call "school lunch." The "lunch police" took some kid's sandwich and forced the mother to buy chicken nuggets. That is an example of the government abusing their power.

    Oh, regarding the standardized test, I just took it in the beginning of this month. I later found out that the test was merely to ensure I had the skills I needed to get a job and raise a family.
    @moonman - that school lunch story made me sick - but it's not "new" or "now" though - it's the culmination of 30 years of misguided policy on federal funding for school lunch. Did you know that day cares, if they fill out proper forms and serve the "suggested" meal, get a subsidy from the fed as well? I've written software to fill out those forms.

    btw - I believe I get your reference to the "test" and "raising a family" - can't socialize education in hopes of socializing society. Oh - but they do - "Here a carrot - look at this one!"

    But this isn't a blue or red fight - they are really the same color in the end. I see your signature - have you emailed him any of your ideas - supporting or opposing? I've done it to the one from western PA - and it wasn't supportive. Because he keeps coming up with the same stupid rant...your one from mass makes up a new stupid every day - not worth an email!!!

    The reason they stay involved in education is to draw the attention away from what we should be watching them mess up.

    Last week the dow was up - the euro is holding together - but wait - wasn't greece detonaty a month ago and it crashed - or was that because Dec sales were up (we were up again) - oh wait - Dec profit for ebay tanked.

    That means 4th quarter was a lie!

    Ok - now greece is going to make us tank again - but not because of the euro because the whole govt resigned

    Google that

    greece government resigned

    Greece is experiencing a genuine financial and social earthquake
    top link tonight...

    But wait - let's just have someone take over a key route for oil to be shipped by talks of insane activity on everyones part - and now the dow can tank for that reason...

    And tonight gas is about to hit $4 a gallon in ct again...

    4 cell phones and an air-card is $200 a month...did everything all of sudden go from $10 to $100?

    But I'm happy because it's so warm that I haven't had to fill my $800 oil tank the same 6 times I did last winter. btw - $800 heated by house the whole winter in 1985 - just think about that for a second...really...

    The guy driving the truck from local depot to your house made $35 for the fillup and delivery back then - per run. Don't think his pay went up a factor of 6!!! Who takes that money? Corporation? yup... Govt taxes? I live in CT so I know about gas tax - trust me - it's sad...

    Maybe bill has really made those "weather" machines they talked about 2 years ago and global warming is really just MS fixing the windows...

    http://www.usatoday.com/weather/rese...rricanes_N.htm

    It's actually a pretty straightforward prospect - maybe it's not because phil lipof bought a snow blower on abc news in nyc...

    Search it up

    phil lipof snow blower

    And that's facebook

    nbc is owned by ge

    abc is owned by disney

    our current president went to disney and told those workers that tourism was an answer? To our countres problems? More Pablum - please!!!

    I read an interesting story a few months ago on how small a group of people "globally" sit on various major corporate boards.

    What's your talking about going to change?
    Last edited by szlamany; Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:54 PM.

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  2. #42
    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Ummm, are you feeling a bit frustrated, or was that mostly amused?

    As for me, I'm not thrilled about plenty of things, but I just ate blueberries on my cereal (a fall fruit), then had a pretty good strawberry (a summer fruit, though in the wild they don't grow even a tenth the size), then had a couple cumquats (not even sure where those are from). My house is warm, my computer is running, and the laundry is clean. The wheels have always wobbled. One day they may fall off, but not just yet.
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  3. #43

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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    @moonman - that school lunch story made me sick - but it's not "new" or "now" though - it's the culmination of 30 years of misguided policy on federal funding for school lunch. Did you know that day cares, if they fill out proper forms and serve the "suggested" meal, get a subsidy from the fed as well? I've written software to fill out those forms.

    btw - I believe I get your reference to the "test" and "raising a family" - can't socialize education in hopes of socializing society. Oh - but they do - "Here a carrot - look at this one!"

    But this isn't a blue or red fight - they are really the same color in the end. I see your signature - have you emailed him any of your ideas - supporting or opposing? I've done it to the one from western PA - and it wasn't supportive. Because he keeps coming up with the same stupid rant...your one from mass makes up a new stupid every day - not worth an email!!!

    The reason they stay involved in education is to draw the attention away from what we should be watching them mess up.

    Last week the dow was up - the euro is holding together - but wait - wasn't greece detonaty a month ago and it crashed - or was that because Dec sales were up (we were up again) - oh wait - Dec profit for ebay tanked.

    That means 4th quarter was a lie!

    Ok - now greece is going to make us tank again - but not because of the euro because the whole govt resigned

    Google that

    greece government resigned

    top link tonight...

    But wait - let's just have someone take over a key route for oil to be shipped by talks of insane activity on everyones part - and now the dow can tank for that reason...

    And tonight gas is about to hit $4 a gallon in ct again...

    4 cell phones and an air-card is $200 a month...did everything all of sudden go from $10 to $100?

    But I'm happy because it's so warm that I haven't had to fill my $800 oil tank the same 6 times I did last winter. btw - $800 heated by house the whole winter in 1985 - just think about that for a second...really...

    The guy driving the truck from local depot to your house made $35 for the fillup and delivery back then - per run. Don't think his pay went up a factor of 6!!! Who takes that money? Corporation? yup... Govt taxes? I live in CT so I know about gas tax - trust me - it's sad...

    Maybe bill has really made those "weather" machines they talked about 2 years ago and global warming is really just MS fixing the windows...

    http://www.usatoday.com/weather/rese...rricanes_N.htm

    It's actually a pretty straightforward prospect - maybe it's not because phil lipof bought a snow blower on abc news in nyc...

    Search it up

    phil lipof snow blower

    And that's facebook

    nbc is owned by ge

    abc is owned by disney

    our current president went to disney and told those workers that tourism was an answer? To our countres problems? More Pablum - please!!!

    I read an interesting story a few months ago on how small a group of people "globally" sit on various major corporate boards.

    What's your talking about going to change?
    Actually, no. I don't believe I have sent him an e-mail. I feel that it will make Mitt lose the nomination.

    I can see that we both agree that there are times when government should not be involved - like taxpayer-funded healthcare, welfare, and education, especially when it's given to illegal immigrants. I really cringe at the thought of our money going to support those who don't even pay the same taxes as their neighbors. It is unfair to the taxpayers who have a living.
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  4. #44
    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Who is it you are talking about? Most of the bankers are citizens. Are you talking about the illegals who pay taxes but don't file returns? Or are you talking about people on welfare who don't pay taxes other than the broad base taxes (sales tax and the like) which they pay at the same rate as anyone else in the same living situation (state, county, city, mileage driven, meals eaten, and so forth)?

    As for health care, as one of the people paying for all the uninsured, I'd rather that they carry some water, too. How will that be done without mandating that they carry insurance, or having a single payer? Right now, if you can't pay, you still get treated (though it will be more expensive treatment because it will generally not include any preventive care), but the costs are passed on to those who have insurance. The hospitals certainly aren't eating the loss, so somebody is paying, and it isn't very hard to figure out who that is.
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  5. #45
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Ummm, are you feeling a bit frustrated, or was that mostly amused?
    Mostly amused - always like to polish my NYC sarcasm.

    Although I gotta tell you I read a tweet about the lunch lady and the 4 year old. Kid brought a turkey sandwich, chips and juice to school for lunch - seems ok for a 4 year old to me. Lunch lady told kid that her mother gave her a bad lunch - wow - that pissed me off. Then switched it up for full school lunch fare of which the kid barely ate.

    4 years old - in a Pre-K program...

    @moonman - edit your post and remove that big ugly quote of my too-big post. At least edit it down to the one or two points you are debating - or "@sz" would have sufficed!

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  6. #46

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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Mostly amused - always like to polish my NYC sarcasm.

    Although I gotta tell you I read a tweet about the lunch lady and the 4 year old. Kid brought a turkey sandwich, chips and juice to school for lunch - seems ok for a 4 year old to me. Lunch lady told kid that her mother gave her a bad lunch - wow - that pissed me off. Then switched it up for full school lunch fare of which the kid barely ate.

    4 years old - in a Pre-K program.
    Yep, that sounds about right. Hmmm... Turkey sandwich without vegetables or fatty chicken nuggets? I'd go with the first one, but according to the DoE, the latter is healthier. Oh, please. The feds don't even like holistic medicine because they get paid by the pharmaceutical companies. How can we expect them to care about our children?
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  7. #47
    Frenzied Member NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    I can see that we both agree that there are times when government should not be involved - like taxpayer-funded healthcare, welfare, and education, especially when it's given to illegal immigrants. I really cringe at the thought of our money going to support those who don't even pay the same taxes as their neighbors. It is unfair to the taxpayers who have a living.
    You might agree, i dont and many other Europeans wouldn't either.

    They are currently trying to change the Healthcare system in the UK to one that encourages more private providers (some call it privatisation by the back door) and there is huge opposition to it.

    And Welfare ??? who the hell else is going to do it if not the government??

    It seems to me that everyone is so concerned with those who may abuse these systems and get something for nothing, that those people who have a legitimate need for it tend to suffer.

    Most of the former public industries in the UK that have since been privatised ( e.g. public transport, energy) haven't generally got any better, they have just got more expensive for seemingly the same level of mismanagement as before.

    What i dont understand is if we really do think a more commercial company modal maybe the best way of running a particular public service, why do they always have to make a profit?

    Couldn't we have a different type of company vehicle specifically for privately run public services where success is determined by service levels and value for money for the public and directors get there bonuses based upon these measures?
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  8. #48
    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    And Welfare ??? who the hell else is going to do it if not the government??
    In the US, there is a belief among certain sectors that the churches would pick up all welfare activities. This rather scares me, as they NEVER have done so for free. They would be doing so as a means of enforcing their views. You don't get help without doing certain things or saying certain things. Some are more explicit than others. It never worked all that well, anyways.
    It seems to me that everyone is so concerned with those who may abuse these systems and get something for nothing, that those people who have a legitimate need for it tend to suffer.
    This actually drives much of the problems with government. Twenty years back, I worked for the feds for a summer. For that summer job, which consisted of walking up streams measuring available salmon spawning habitat, I had to fill out many forms, the final one of which was a form that I had to sign swearing that the things I had signed my name to previously were legitimate. Frankly, if I had been willing to lie when I signed my name to all those other forms (including, ironically, the Paperwork Reduction Act form), I think I probably wouldn't have been too bothered by lying one more time on that last form.

    The way that form came about is pretty easy to imagine. Some group got all hot and bothered that some government employees were getting away with something, or were being hired unfairly, so they got ahold of their representatives in Congress and demanded that something be done. The Congressman needed to pound the table a bit and do something visible to show that they were 'fighting for the people', so they introduced a bill requiring some verification of the veracity of the things people were attesting to when being hired. They might have been thinking about background checks, proof of citizenship, and whatnot, but when ended up coming out was probably something that spoke about an agency or agencies making sure that the data being submitted was accurate.

    Once that bill got passed, the agencies HR people tried to figure out what they had to do to comply with the bill. They recognized that doing a background check on a bunch of temporary employees (and even on most fulltime employees in most jobs) to verify this stuff would be incredibly time-consuming and burdensome, so they went to their lawyers and asked them, "What do we have to do to comply with this?" The lawyers examined case law and told them, "Have the employees sign this form, and you are covered by existing case law."

    And thus the insanity progressed. Everybody did what they thought was best based on the situation as they saw it, and the result was one more silly hoop to jump through. I would guess that better than 20% of the actions of the government are currently spent complying with regulations intended to ensure that nobody gets away with anything that any sufficiently loud group feels that they are not entitled to.
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  9. #49
    Frenzied Member SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    In this instance - and many others - government has overstepped its bounds. The need to eliminate those who would abuse the system is natural. But we can, and will, tolerate small transgressions as long as the burden is not excessive.

    However, the burden has passed a tipping point. Even if we consider and accept that there are, truly, only a small number who are gaming the system, the overall cost of government - not to just run the country, but extending to take from the productive is truly too great a burden.

    I would quote from the Declaration of Independence:

    "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

    Indeed, education has not been bettered. Can anyone say that education is better today than it was 5, 10, 20, 50 or 100 years ago?

    Al the arguing today is about sexuality, tolerance, religion (or lack of), feelings. When a child becomes an independent adult, none of these things matter. What matters is can you provide for yourself? Can you provide for a family? Can you better you local or wide community by leading when a leader is necessary, follow when following is essential, or support through application of skills, the community in which you reside? This is the task of the education establishments.
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  10. #50
    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by SJWhiteley View Post
    When a child becomes an independent adult, none of these things matter.
    Perhaps not in a bottom-line evaluation, but people sure act like they matter. People are willing to kill and be killed for pretty much ALL of those issues. From a bottom-line perspective, that may be an irrational position, but it is the position we find ourselves in.
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  11. #51
    Frenzied Member SJWhiteley's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Perhaps not in a bottom-line evaluation, but people sure act like they matter. People are willing to kill and be killed for pretty much ALL of those issues. From a bottom-line perspective, that may be an irrational position, but it is the position we find ourselves in.
    People have these things regardless of education. The education system - and indeed the public and politicians - focus on these things as if they should be part of the education system: this is wrong.

    Put it this way, if these are the educational 'subjects' being taught today, must , should or can an employer make a decision to hire based on these things? Your sexuality, your stance on diversity or religion?
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  12. #52
    Loquacious User Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Ok, I can see that. However, it seems to me that the public/political focus on these subjects is mostly on reducing intolerance that already exists. I'm not sure that it would be right to NOT have a focus on reducing intolerance, even if that is more properly the role of the family.
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  13. #53

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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    I just added a poll.
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  14. #54
    Frenzied Member NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: WHY is our government involved in education?

    Okay i know so far i have supported government run education in this thread and broadly speaking that is my position mainly because the alternatives in my opinion do not bear thinking about.

    But .... one thing i absolutely agree on is that governments (certainly in my country and probably in many others) do not fully understand education (this seems to unfortunately apply even more so to Education ministers), and generally make a mess of it when they try to reform it.

    Too many of the changes are ideology led rather then evidence led.

    We should put more trust in our teachers and they should have a greater say in how the system works.
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