View Poll Results: BP should be liable for the spill.

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Thread: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

  1. #1

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    BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    It's their mistake, not the gov't. I could care less if they had to go out of business or even withdraw money from savings. I can accept other countries helping, though.

  2. #2
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Actually an article in the new york times shows that it was partially the goverment's fault because of its lax drilling rules and policies.

  3. #3
    Next Of Kin baja_yu's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Missing option 3. I don't care one way or the other.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    So the argument is that I'm not responsible for my actions if somebody fails to prevent me from doing something bad?
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    Hyperactive Member storm5510's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    So the argument is that I'm not responsible for my actions if somebody fails to prevent me from doing something bad?
    This is a tough for me to wrap my brain around. Perhaps something simpler is in order.

    Let's say I am 12 years old and I take my dad's car for a joyride. So, the question would be, am I responsible because my dad didn't tell me not to take the car?

    Yes, I am responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by baja_yu
    Missing option 3. I don't care one way or the other.
    Exactly the type of response I would expect in this case..


  6. #6
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanMc View Post
    Actually an article in the new york times shows that it was partially the goverment's fault because of its lax drilling rules and policies.
    One more thing we can thank Reagan and his cronies for back in the '80s.

    Remember, the prime motivation for incorporation is to evade personal liability.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
    This is a tough for me to wrap my brain around. Perhaps something simpler is in order.

    Let's say I am 12 years old and I take my dad's car for a joyride. So, the question would be, am I responsible because my dad didn't tell me not to take the car?

    Yes, I am responsible.
    Interesting analogy to compare a multinational company to a 12 year old

    I'm not quite sure how this is a reply to my quote, though. It seems like a more appropriate response to RunDeanMc.
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I think he mistook your quote shaggy...... Did you really just call me run dmc? Lol

  9. #9
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Anyway my point was the blame should be laid on the law makers for not enforcing the law and the law breakers for breaking it. There are numerous articles that show policy was flounced on both sides of the fence for profit!

  10. #10
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Personally i Blame Wossname,

    I have heard that in return for those Laser cats eyes (paid for by Shell) he single handedly caused the oil spill in the first place.
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  11. #11
    Powered By Medtronic dbasnett's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I believe that until this time there has not been retroactive penalties. Whatever the law said when the event occurred is what BP is liable for. However I don't believe that BP is immune from personal injury lawsuits, but they take a long time and typically only the sharks, hmmmm, lawyers make any money.

    So where was (is) the government? Didn't Mr. Obama say last night that they knew that MMS was a mess, but they just hadn't got around to cleaning it completely? I think I heard him say that.

    On the suck-o-meter BP is an 8 and our government is a 10. If we fixed our government maybe the problems with BP, the banks, healthcare, etc. would really get fixed. DON'T VOTE FOR THE INCUMBENT! This election cycle will be the third time I have not.
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  12. #12
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    DON'T VOTE FOR THE INCUMBENT! This election cycle will be the third time I have not
    Out of curiosity what exactly are you trying to achieve with this stance ?

    would you prefer all politicians to only server 1 term and then be replaced ?

    Or are you just not voting for the current elected representative until someone good gets in office ?

    If we fixed our government maybe the problems with BP, the banks, healthcare, etc. would really get fixed
    Do you not think that part of the problem is not just the people but the system, and that the political system needs reform ?
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  13. #13
    Powered By Medtronic dbasnett's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Out of curiosity what exactly are you trying to achieve with this stance ?

    would you prefer all politicians to only server 1 term and then be replaced ?

    Or are you just not voting for the current elected representative until someone good gets in office ?

    Do you not think that part of the problem is not just the people but the system, and that the political system needs reform ?
    My stance was that I voted for whom I thought would do a good job. I think most people do. Sometimes (most) I have been in the majority. But, I have come to understand that they all are pretty much the same. So my new stance is to send a message.

    Imagine what would happen if EVERY incumbent lost for the next x election cycles. Would we have:

    banks to big to fail. Notice how we still have them.
    oil companies writing their own rules.
    personal interest rates of 30&#37;. Did you see the God Father?
    health care reform.
    etc.

    It looks to me like we have a system controlled by lawyers and the rich, for the lawyers and the rich.

    And maybe someone could explain how the Supreme Court interpreted this "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." to mean that Companies were people.

    If anyone has a better way to send a message (I am to old to use my Second Ammendment rights) please let me know. Voting for the "right" person ain't workin'.

    If the choice was between Claire McCaskill and Mickey F'ing Mouse, Mickey is getting my vote. I wrote all of my elected reps about bailing out banks, and they did what I knew they would.
    Last edited by dbasnett; Jun 16th, 2010 at 10:53 AM.
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  14. #14
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    "If anyone has a better way to send a message (I am to old to use my Second Ammendment rights) please let me know." - how about running yourself? It's freakishly easy to be an armchair congressional representative. In theory, I get what you're saying about booting incumbents out... and I know why some people think that term limits are good. But experience has shown me that it's not such a hot idea that everyone seems to think it is. We recently invoked term limits to 2 terms at the state level here. Worst thing to be done. It was all in an effort to get one guy out of the unicameral - primarily because he kept blocking some people's "pet projects"... and rightfuly so if you ask me. He forced the legislature to be more fiscally responsible, and prevented the passing of several stupid bills. I don't live in his district, I may not have cared about his outspokeness, but heck, even I'd still vote for him. Then the following cycle, we had a 12&#37; turn over rate as some members were left out due to term limits. But the worst damage came in the following cycle after that when there was a 45% turn over. The remaining members will turn over in the next cycle I think. So now we have a legislature that is more than half green... all for a more than part-time, but less than full-time that pays less than $15k a year plus stipends. The only people that can afford to run are people that own their own busniesses that can be away from it for up to 9months, or the well-to-do that don't need to work...

    Personally, I don't know effective an elected official can be if he and those that he has to work with know he's around for a single term. And ina 4-year cycle, you probably end up spending the first two just learning the ropes and figuring out how the system really works.

    But, hey, that's just my view on it. Take it for what it's worth... sure the system may seem broken, but term-limits aren't the answer, and at the moment, it's all we got.

    -tg
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  15. #15
    Frenzied Member MaximilianMayrhofer's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I really couldn't be bothered to read that blob of text.

    So i'll just disagree with you on principle.

  16. #16
    Hyperactive Member storm5510's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Interesting analogy to compare a multinational company to a 12 year old

    I'm not quite sure how this is a reply to my quote, though. It seems like a more appropriate response to RunDeanMc.
    Okay, since mine was so crappy, you do it. The principle is the same. If I do something and it is wrong, I am to blame. No one else.


  17. #17
    PowerPoster abhijit's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Personally, I don't know effective an elected official can be if he and those that he has to work with know he's around for a single term. And ina 4-year cycle, you probably end up spending the first two just learning the ropes and figuring out how the system really works.

    But, hey, that's just my view on it. Take it for what it's worth... sure the system may seem broken, but term-limits aren't the answer, and at the moment, it's all we got.

    -tg
    Effectively the bureaucrats run the Government, the elected officials make the calls based on what the bureaucrats tell them. That's always been the case in Parliamentary democracies all over the world. I am not sure how the system works in the United States.

    In a nutshell, imposing term limits on elected officials wouldn't make an iota of a difference until bureaucracy ceases to exist.
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  18. #18
    PowerPoster abhijit's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
    Okay, since mine was so crappy, you do it. The principle is the same. If I do something and it is wrong, I am to blame. No one else.

    Even if you didn't know better?
    Last edited by abhijit; Jun 17th, 2010 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Crappy English
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  19. #19
    Powered By Medtronic dbasnett's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    "If anyone has a better way to send a message (I am to old to use my Second Ammendment rights) please let me know." - how about running yourself? It's freakishly easy to be an armchair congressional representative. In theory, I get what you're saying about booting incumbents out... and I know why some people think that term limits are good. But experience has shown me that it's not such a hot idea that everyone seems to think it is. We recently invoked term limits to 2 terms at the state level here. Worst thing to be done. It was all in an effort to get one guy out of the unicameral - primarily because he kept blocking some people's "pet projects"... and rightfuly so if you ask me. He forced the legislature to be more fiscally responsible, and prevented the passing of several stupid bills. I don't live in his district, I may not have cared about his outspokeness, but heck, even I'd still vote for him. Then the following cycle, we had a 12% turn over rate as some members were left out due to term limits. But the worst damage came in the following cycle after that when there was a 45% turn over. The remaining members will turn over in the next cycle I think. So now we have a legislature that is more than half green... all for a more than part-time, but less than full-time that pays less than $15k a year plus stipends. The only people that can afford to run are people that own their own busniesses that can be away from it for up to 9months, or the well-to-do that don't need to work...

    Personally, I don't know effective an elected official can be if he and those that he has to work with know he's around for a single term. And ina 4-year cycle, you probably end up spending the first two just learning the ropes and figuring out how the system really works.

    But, hey, that's just my view on it. Take it for what it's worth... sure the system may seem broken, but term-limits aren't the answer, and at the moment, it's all we got.

    -tg
    I didn't say term limits. If you have term limits then we, the people, don't have the ability to send a message. If, theoretically, you can be there for life, but get voted out it is a different message. I personally think term limits are bad because, "Why not, I am only going to be here for x".
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  20. #20
    type Woss is new Grumpy; wossname's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I think the Americans should pay for 100&#37; of the damage.

    It's their market forces that give BP the motivation to drill big ****-off holes in the sea bed in the first place.

    Self inflicted costs I say.
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  21. #21
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I've personally had it with the government talking about this. For decades, they let BP (among others) get away with safety violations as long the company wrote the check (paid the fines).

    Now, all of a sudden, they want to do something. The time for the government to do something was 10 years ago. The most important thing right now is that BP does everything in their power to contain well, clean up the damage, and compensate those whose livelihoods have been comprimised.

    This is not a time for politicians to show they are "tough on big oil" so they can gain points in election polls. The grandstanding, especially by Obummer, is making me more sick than the actual disaster, and I'm from Louisiana.

    This whole fiasco is no different than the financial crisis. For decades, people on Wall St. did what they wanted, now all of a sudden the government is going to do it's job? The damage has been done.

    One thing I can always count on from the government of the US, they will not to close the doors until the last horse has left the barn.

    Edit: To answer the question, yes BP is liable. However, I still don't see how Transocean and Halliburton are escaping unscathed.
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  22. #22
    Fanatic Member InvisibleDuncan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    As Blakk_Majik says, what about Halliburton and Transocean? Transocean owned the rig in question, and Halliburton were the ones who cemented the wall - which was the bit that failed. It's staggering that out of the three, BP is the only one being pilloried.
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  23. #23
    Powered By Medtronic dbasnett's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    It is my believe that there is a lot of blame to go around. But I also believe that until they get the thing plugged and the BOP on dry land, we won't know the truth. Maybe the government can make certain that they are there for the recovery and examination of the BOP...
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  24. #24
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
    Okay, since mine was so crappy, you do it. The principle is the same. If I do something and it is wrong, I am to blame. No one else.

    I wasn't saying it was crappy, I was saying that I didn't understand it in relationship to what I said, which you quoted.

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  25. #25
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    I have to say no. Until there is a full inquiry as to whom is responsible then nobody should pay anything.

    What if they find out that it was a faulty breach plug that causes the failure from an outside contractor after they paid of hundreds of millions?

    I think for the moment they are being more than generous in spending millions to try and clean up the spill when it may not be their fault. If they are found to be guilty of negligence then yes. They should pay every penny irrespective of the cost to their business.

    But. I must say that just because they were the ones running the rig at the time does NOT make them automatically liable.
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  26. #26
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    which could take months... mean while, oil is spewing out at an outrageous rate... people are starting to suffer economically, and it still needs to be cleaned up somehow. so sitting back with thumbs up their *** and going "hey, it's not my fault... maybe it was bad concrete." just doesn't fly.

    In fact, that's EXACTLY what happened in the first few days... Haliburton said "hey we built it to spec, and it passed." Transocean is saying "Hey, we may own it on paper, but it's being leased and run by BP." And BP said "the buck is stopping here." .... problem isn't whose fault it is... that can be determined later. I think where most of the outrage is coming from is the apparent lack of care in actually stopping the leak. They are suppposed to have plans on how to deal with this... and yet everytime it was "we could try that, but it could take a couple of weeks." Why? If the things I've heard about their Gulf Emergency Plan is true, at least I know the walruses are going to be safe. And that a dead professor will be on the scene to help with the emergency.

    And I'm sorry, but I don't buy or accept the apology from the BP muckity muck. I bet if this had happened in the middle of the Themes, it would have been stopped and cleaned up in two weeks...

    -tg
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  27. #27
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    sciguyryan - if someone steals my car, wrecks it and causes damage to someone's house... who is responsible? me, because I own it? Or the kid who was operating it at the time?

    -tg
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  28. #28
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    which could take months... mean while, oil is spewing out at an outrageous rate... people are starting to suffer economically, and it still needs to be cleaned up somehow. so sitting back with thumbs up their *** and going "hey, it's not my fault... maybe it was bad concrete." just doesn't fly.
    So be it. People who need to be compensated will be compensated, one way or another. There is no doubt about that - someone clearly is liable here.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    In fact, that's EXACTLY what happened in the first few days... Haliburton said "hey we built it to spec, and it passed." Transocean is saying "Hey, we may own it on paper, but it's being leased and run by BP." And BP said "the buck is stopping here." .... problem isn't whose fault it is... that can be determined later. I think where most of the outrage is coming from is the apparent lack of care in actually stopping the leak. They are suppposed to have plans on how to deal with this... and yet everytime it was "we could try that, but it could take a couple of weeks." Why? If the things I've heard about their Gulf Emergency Plan is true, at least I know the walruses are going to be safe. And that a dead professor will be on the scene to help with the emergency.
    True. However, how often does one get a chance to test said technology? Theoretical strategies only go so far and drilling at that depth is risky - specifically because few machines can get down that far and even fewer people.

    Plans often seem good on paper but that does not guarantee they will work - and while they should have an accepted chance of success they may fail because they cannot be tested. Sorry but that is just a fact relating to the nature of this kind of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    And I'm sorry, but I don't buy or accept the apology from the BP muckity muck. I bet if this had happened in the middle of the Themes, it would have been stopped and cleaned up in two weeks...
    Of course but then again the Themes is much, much shallower so such a leak would be much simpler to stop.

    for the record, BP is not a British company any longer. Most of its directors are American and so are a good portion of its workers. Blame by saying "if it were located xyx it would be fixed quicker" isn't helping matters at all. Please remember that not everyone lives in the US okay?

    The one good thing that may come out of this is that it make people pay more attention to the use of oil and other such globally polluting materials. Maybe it'll help us become just that little bit greener.
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  29. #29
    Next Of Kin baja_yu's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    sciguyryan - if someone steals my car, wrecks it and causes damage to someone's house... who is responsible? me, because I own it? Or the kid who was operating it at the time?

    -tg
    That's different. First the kid did not have your permission to drive the car. If he ran a red light and got caught on camera, the fine would come to your house because it was your car.

  30. #30
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    sciguyryan - if someone steals my car, wrecks it and causes damage to someone's house... who is responsible? me, because I own it? Or the kid who was operating it at the time?

    -tg
    If someone buys a specialized piece of equipment and said equipment fails and the cause turns out to be not the fault of the company but of a contractor of one of the parts - why should the company pay? They may not have the experience nor capabilities to check all of their work. The same may be true in this case. Find the guilty party and blame them - do not assign arbitrary blame.

    If someone is accused of stealing something they are taken to court and evidence is given to prove or disprove their innocence. They don't simply state that they live locally so are automatically guilty.
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  31. #31
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Here's how I see it - the problem isn't one thing that went wrong, but a series of things that went wrong. I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around. The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of "little people" who are now out of work because of this... and could quite potentially be out of work for some time. What the heck are they supposed to do? Sure some day the leak will be stopped, the birds cleaned up and some (because let's face it, who are we kidding, the gene is out of the bottle, and there is no recouperating most of that oil) of the oil is contained. but the wetlands and the people whose livelyhood depend on the affected areas... that's going to be decades in the cleanup. And there's still no guarantee that it'll even recover - they're STILL finding oil seeping up through the rock form the Valdez disaster.

    And you're right, I shouldn't have used the Themes as an example... I should have used the fjords... I forgot for a moment, he's Scandinavian. Us little people have little minds, we have trouble comprehending such things.
    Blame by saying "if it were located xyx it would be fixed quicker" isn't helping matters at all. Please remember that not everyone lives in the US okay?
    I know not everyone lives in the US... I'm not that stupid. And I never said as much. However, the closer one is to something like this, the more one is likely to do something about it. Seriously I get the feeling sometimes that some of these BP executives don't really care. We're TWO months into this carp, and ONLY NOW we get a mea culpa? And only AFTER a visit to the White House? Where was this guy 6 weeks ago? Or even two weeks ago?

    Meanwhile, BP is buying up ads on Google.... really? and are setting up hotlines and websites, and running ads (except in the Gulf region?????) and then when people call up to donate to the cleanup cause "Um sorry but we don't have a donation policy" ... the way this whole thing has been handled, by BP, Washington, the media... it's all carp... about the only people that seem to have their act in gear has been the states, and the Audubon Society...

    Maybe we should be calling on James Cameron and Dr. Robert Ballard, clearly when it comes to underwater adventures, they know what they are doing.

    -tg

    If it seems I'm a bit bitter about this... I am... I don't expect anything I say/rant to actually be taken seriously.
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  32. #32
    Powered By Medtronic dbasnett's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Wouldn't it have been nice if the government had a fund to cover situations like this, that all companies paid into based on risk. Once the guilty party / parities were identified the fund could be reimbursed by those guilty.
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  33. #33
    Hyperactive Member storm5510's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Sometimes it appears that people in this country take the wrong approach to a problem such as this. The first thing anyone want to do is point fingers. This doesn't solve anything. Plug the d**n hole first, then do the butt-reaming contests. The old photo below pretty much sums it all up.


  34. #34
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
    Sometimes it appears that people in this country take the wrong approach to a problem such as this. The first thing anyone want to do is point fingers. This doesn't solve anything. Plug the d**n hole first, then do the butt-reaming contests. The old photo below pretty much sums it all up.
    Indeed. As I said. Whoever is liable in the end WILL have to pay anyway. There is no question of that. But there is no pointing fingers until we know who to point them at.
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  35. #35
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    can't see the attached pic.... but storm's right... there's time later for the blame game... meantime I haven't heard about any more efforts about stopping the leak... last I heard, they cut the pipe (badly) and had lowered some kind of "Cap" to trap what was coming out... but that it wasn't capturing anywhere close to what the new output is, giving the net effect of increasing what's spewing out....

    what's this pipe made out of? Metal, right? metal is fairly malleable... rather than cutting it, wouldn't it have made better sense to send down the jaws of life and crimped it? Send the Navy down there. Have them park one of their Seawolf-class subs on that puppy... that should crimp that bad boy right down.

    -tg
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  36. #36
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    @techgnome: I'm not sure that is possible since the pipe is pretty large and such equipment probably will not work at that depth. If I remember correctly the pipe diameter is some 21 inches with a 4 inch thick outer shell - not easy to clamp at any depth.

    And given the continual pressure exerted from the oil in the pipe it would be very difficult.

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  37. #37
    Next Of Kin baja_yu's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by sciguyryan View Post
    And given the continual pressure exerted from the oil in the pipe it would be very difficult.
    And, as you are clamping it making the opening narrower the pressure will be rising steeply.

  38. #38
    Frenzied Member sciguyryan's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by baja_yu View Post
    And, as you are clamping it making the opening narrower the pressure will be rising steeply.
    Yeah. There is that too. It would probably increase by a factor of two for each half reduction in diameter... which would mount up quickly considering the pressure.
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  39. #39
    Member Sahir's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    It's an act of God, so God is responsible.
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  40. #40
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: BP should be liable for the oil spill.

    Kevin Bacon is responsible... everything always links back to Kevin Bacon one way or another.

    -tg
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