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Thread: The End of the World is Nigh!

  1. #81
    Hyperactive Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    There is no reason to worry. It seems they've got the french scientists to check the numbers and they confirm the chances of destroying earth are ridiculously small.

    Now I feel better (not).
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  2. #82
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Latest research shows: black holes most commonly found in black socks.

  3. #83
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    I'll be cruising solo down the information highway. *super cool*

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  5. #85

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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    This is it. They're running-up the doomsday machine as I type. It's supposed to reach max power in less than half an hour - I'm watching a live braodcast direct from Geneva. I'll be able to watch Raypoz kill the scientists - live...

    Hang on... is Raypoz the Swiss equivalent of the Department of Social Security...

  6. #86
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Hooray!!
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  7. #87
    ASP.NET Moderator mendhak's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    I saw one of the beams escape the tunnel and warm a cup of coffee.

  8. #88
    Hyperactive Member vbcode1980's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Unfortunately it'll take at least until the end of the year before they start crashing really fast flying protons...
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  9. #89
    Fanatic Member EntityX's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    This article which posted today about the LHC suggests that there is little to worry about. The top scientists are saying that the greatest danger would only be in the immediate vicinity of the LHC.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...M_Exclude=Juno

    I think it's only people that know little about black holes and micro black holes that are worried. Micro black holes don't have the mass to suck in matter. The forces that hold the atom together are too strong to be overcome by a micro black hole. You need an enormous amount of gravity to do that and that means you need an enormous amount of mass. Something greater than the mass of our sun.
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  10. #90
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Hasn't it already happened?

  11. #91
    Raging swede Atheist's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by kregg
    Hasn't it already happened?
    Today was only a test run. They didnt run at full power (Only about 10% I think) and they only accelerated particles one way, so there was no colliding involved.


    Im extremely excited to the day when they do the actual colliding!
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  12. #92
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Explains why we aren't dead yet.

  13. #93
    Frenzied Member zaza's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by EntityX
    This article which posted today about the LHC suggests that there is little to worry about. The top scientists are saying that the greatest danger would only be in the immediate vicinity of the LHC.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...M_Exclude=Juno

    I think it's only people that know little about black holes and micro black holes that are worried. Micro black holes don't have the mass to suck in matter. The forces that hold the atom together are too strong to be overcome by a micro black hole. You need an enormous amount of gravity to do that and that means you need an enormous amount of mass. Something greater than the mass of our sun.

    I've already told you about this....
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  14. #94
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregg
    Explains why we aren't dead yet.
    Speak for yourself.

  15. #95
    PowerPoster Jenner's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Black holes work via gravity. Gravity gets stronger via mass. Thus, more mass = more gravity.

    If we took all the mass of this entire planet and tried to make a black-hole out of it, it wouldn't be able to sustain itself for more than an insanely small fraction of time.

    Black holes that are self-sustaining which means the gravity they produce is greater than the internal forces of the atoms and particles they consume only come from MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE stars and stellar events. Only then do you actually have enough mass and gravity in a small enough place to have a self-sustaining black hole.

    If we took all the planets, moons, asteroids and comets in our entire solar system and even threw in the sun and tried, we couldn't do it.

    Naysayers on the LHC don't know the first thing about Astrophysics 101.
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  16. #96
    Frenzied Member zaza's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenner
    Black holes work via gravity. Gravity gets stronger via mass. Thus, more mass = more gravity.

    If we took all the mass of this entire planet and tried to make a black-hole out of it, it wouldn't be able to sustain itself for more than an insanely small fraction of time.

    Black holes that are self-sustaining which means the gravity they produce is greater than the internal forces of the atoms and particles they consume only come from MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE stars and stellar events. Only then do you actually have enough mass and gravity in a small enough place to have a self-sustaining black hole.

    If we took all the planets, moons, asteroids and comets in our entire solar system and even threw in the sun and tried, we couldn't do it.

    Naysayers on the LHC don't know the first thing about Astrophysics 101.

    Yes. For black holes to form on their own. What you're describing is the process by which black holes would form when their gravitational pressure is greater than the radiation pressure trying to prevent collapse. And yes, you need several times the mass of the Sun. However, if you manage to persuade a black hole to form under other conditions, let's say by forcing a group of neutrons together and "topping up" the missing gravitational energy by some other means (maybe by pumping particles at the outside really fast), then who's to say that you can't form a black hole with much lower mass? The issue would be whether or not the tiny black hole thus formed would spontaneously disappear through Hawking radiation, not whether there would be enough mass to sustain it.
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  17. #97
    Hyperactive Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    If particles travel 27 km's 11000 times per second then how many meters per second is that and what is the speed of light in mtrs/second?

    Can't wait till they start crashing them. Will it look like the car chase in Blue's Brothers?
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  18. #98
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j
    Speak for yourself.

  19. #99
    Hyperactive Member BillGeek's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Wait wait wait. *sigh* I thought the human race doesn't know the first thing about black holes and that it's all just speculation? Is it not true that they have not even detected any black holes anywhere? As far as I'm aware, the only "black hole" that NASA THINKS is a Black Hole is the Super Massive Black Hole in the center of the galaxy...

    My brain hurts.

  20. #100
    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxer
    Will it look like the car chase in Blue's Brothers?
    God, I hope so.

    "They broke my watch!"

  21. #101
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by homer13j
    God, I hope so.

    "They broke my watch!"
    Hey I thought you were dead?

  22. #102
    PowerPoster Jenner's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza
    Yes. For black holes to form on their own. What you're describing is the process by which black holes would form when their gravitational pressure is greater than the radiation pressure trying to prevent collapse. And yes, you need several times the mass of the Sun. However, if you manage to persuade a black hole to form under other conditions, let's say by forcing a group of neutrons together and "topping up" the missing gravitational energy by some other means (maybe by pumping particles at the outside really fast), then who's to say that you can't form a black hole with much lower mass? The issue would be whether or not the tiny black hole thus formed would spontaneously disappear through Hawking radiation, not whether there would be enough mass to sustain it.
    Because you can't form a black hole with much lower mass. Period. It's totally impossible by conventional partial physics, and string theory doesn't allow for it either. Even if you have matter compressed so tightly it's occupying the same space as intertwined strings, you lack the energy to keep it like that when you take the pressure off.

    You can compress a lump of mass with the same density as a black hole, but it's not a black hole because it lacks the mass, and thus, lacks the gravity. Even if you managed to artificially to pump up the gravitational energy... first, you'd get a nobel prize for the first person ever to artificially manipulate gravity and would be hounded by Star Trek fanboys the rest of your life with requests to make "gravity plating" so they can have their own starships. Second, as soon as you stopped pumping, once again, it would fly apart because it would revert to it's proper gravitational level.

    The problem is, what's termed as a "micro black hole" isn't a black hole at all. It has some "similar properties" as a gravitational black hole, but it's like comparing a chunk of iron to a chunk of 5-day old French bread. Both are heavy and solid, and both will chip your tooth if you try to eat them. You might even build a battleship out of each, but in the end, the French bread will get soggy and fall apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillGeek
    Wait wait wait. *sigh* I thought the human race doesn't know the first thing about black holes and that it's all just speculation? Is it not true that they have not even detected any black holes anywhere? As far as I'm aware, the only "black hole" that NASA THINKS is a Black Hole is the Super Massive Black Hole in the center of the galaxy...

    My brain hurts.
    Naw, they've detected and identified thousands of black holes. Typically ones absorbing stellar material like Cygnus X1 because they throw off a lot of radiation doing that. I should say "Black Hole Candidates" since without actually going there and observing them firsthand, they'll never say "confirmed".
    Last edited by Jenner; Sep 11th, 2008 at 09:08 AM.
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  23. #103
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by kregg
    Hey I thought you were dead?
    Yeah, I thought so too. It's that damn Taco Bell food...

  24. #104
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Don't worry, I'll avenge your survival!!

  25. #105
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxer
    If particles travel 27 km's 11000 times per second then how many meters per second is that and what is the speed of light in mtrs/second?

    Can't wait till they start crashing them. Will it look like the car chase in Blue's Brothers?
    That would be 27 * 11,000 km / s = 297,000,000 m / s = 2.97E8 m/s.
    The speed of light in vacuum is defined to be exactly 299,792,458 m / s so that would mean the particles travel at 0.990685 times the speed of light in a vacuum (and the LHC is one of the best vacuums around, even better than outer space).

    At CERN's website however they say the particles travel at 0.9999 times the speed of light so the 27 km and 11,000 times are probably off by quite an amount... I don't know the exact figures...

  26. #106
    Frenzied Member zaza's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenner
    Because you can't form a black hole with much lower mass. Period. It's totally impossible by conventional partial physics, and string theory doesn't allow for it either. Even if you have matter compressed so tightly it's occupying the same space as intertwined strings, you lack the energy to keep it like that when you take the pressure off.

    You can compress a lump of mass with the same density as a black hole, but it's not a black hole because it lacks the mass, and thus, lacks the gravity. Even if you managed to artificially to pump up the gravitational energy... first, you'd get a nobel prize for the first person ever to artificially manipulate gravity and would be hounded by Star Trek fanboys the rest of your life with requests to make "gravity plating" so they can have their own starships. Second, as soon as you stopped pumping, once again, it would fly apart because it would revert to it's proper gravitational level.

    The problem is, what's termed as a "micro black hole" isn't a black hole at all. It has some "similar properties" as a gravitational black hole, but it's like comparing a chunk of iron to a chunk of 5-day old French bread. Both are heavy and solid, and both will chip your tooth if you try to eat them. You might even build a battleship out of each, but in the end, the French bread will get soggy and fall apart.



    Naw, they've detected and identified thousands of black holes. Typically ones absorbing stellar material like Cygnus X1 because they throw off a lot of radiation doing that. I should say "Black Hole Candidates" since without actually going there and observing them firsthand, they'll never say "confirmed".


    Black holes are about relativity a lot more than they are about particle physics.
    Any mass, compressed to what is called the Schwarzschild radius, will form a black hole; RS = 2 G M / c2 where G is the gravitational constant, M is your mass and c is the speed of light. It's not about the value of the mass, it's about the density. The Schwarzschild radius is effectively the event horizon; the point at which the spacetime curvature becomes so great that the escape velocity = c. Particles which stray within this radius will be unable to escape. You don't need to do it for very long; but don't forget that the radiation pressure (and neutron degeneracy pressure) trying to blow your particles apart is related to how many and how hot your particles are. In a star, you have an awful lot of pretty warm particles and a corresponding reluctance to get too cosy. Hence you need an awful lot of mass (~6 solar masses) to start thinking about it. Stars, however, only really have gravity pulling them together. A particle accelerator has other factors. My point was not "artificially adjusting the gravitational energy" but rather introducing other factors such that it is no longer the sole collapsing force. Don't try dragging string theory into it either; there's a large quantity of nonsense that gets pedalled about on that particular subject, and if you believe 1% of what you read you'll be believing ten times too much.
    Micro-black holes can exist, make no mistake. They won't be very big because protons don't have much mass, but that's not to say they can't.
    I agree that they won't be sustainable for very long, and unfortunately I think it is likely that klegg will still be hanging around VBF well into 2009, but that's a different story...
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  27. #107
    Hyperactive Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by NickThissen
    That would be 27 * 11,000 km / s = 297,000,000 m / s = 2.97E8 m/s.
    The speed of light in vacuum is defined to be exactly 299,792,458 m / s so that would mean the particles travel at 0.990685 times the speed of light in a vacuum (and the LHC is one of the best vacuums around, even better than outer space).

    At CERN's website however they say the particles travel at 0.9999 times the speed of light so the 27 km and 11,000 times are probably off by quite an amount... I don't know the exact figures...
    Wow - that is awesome!! So the relative impact speed will be ~ twice the speed of light???

    And what about the whole "approaching speed of light is impossible" thing due to exponential amounts of energy required etc etc etc? Or is 99.99% the speed of light considered not close enough to c to be a problem? Or are the masses of the particles low enough to not present that problem?
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  28. #108
    coder. Lord Orwell's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxer
    Wow - that is awesome!! So the relative impact speed will be ~ twice the speed of light???

    And what about the whole "approaching speed of light is impossible" thing due to exponential amounts of energy required etc etc etc? Or is 99.99% the speed of light considered not close enough to c to be a problem? Or are the masses of the particles low enough to not present that problem?
    you really need to read relativity. Even if both objects are moving nearly the speed of light, the collision relative will still be less than the speed of light. It's a direct result of time dilation. The faster you go the slower everything else seems to be moving. Therefore if you are going the speed of light, and hit something else going the speed of light, to you that 2nd object was basically not moving at all.

  29. #109
    Hyperactive Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Relatively speaking, if I was a scientist watching something the speed of light hit something going the speed of light, I'm not caring what the particles are perceiving - I'm looking at a relative collision speed of 2x the speed of light! Fox Theorum™

    That's awesome!
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  30. #110
    coder. Lord Orwell's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxer
    Relatively speaking, if I was a scientist watching something the speed of light hit something going the speed of light, I'm not caring what the particles are perceiving - I'm looking at a relative collision speed of 2x the speed of light! Fox Theorum™

    That's awesome!
    it's also the basis of the special theory of relativity. There is no way for you to observe that because the objects are moving as fast as the data detection device can see. For example light: If you are speeding toward a sun which is emitting light, the light is still hitting you at light speed relatively. The extra motion is converted to you as a shift of the light in spectrum towards the blue.

  31. #111
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    http://science.howstuffworks.com/relativity.htm

    You won't see them travel at c nor will you c them go at twice c. The mass-at-near-c velocities-becoming-infinity feature is apparent in any particle that does have a mass.

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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    There are no problems reaching the speed of light... You can reach as close as you want to provided you have enough energy to do so. You can't however travel at the speed of light exactly, you will always be just a tiny bit slower...

    And while the collision won't happen at 0.9999c + 0.9999c, the energy released by the collision will be doubled... Here's a quote from CERN's website:
    At full power, trillions of protons will race around the LHC accelerator ring 11 245 times a second, travelling at 99.99% the speed of light. Two beams of protons will each travel at a maximum energy of 7 TeV (tera-electronvolt), corresponding to head-to-head collisions of 14 TeV. Altogether some 600 million collisions will take place every second.

  33. #113
    Hyperactive Member BillGeek's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Meaning there'll be 8.4 billion TeV released every second???

    That's the equivalent of... of...
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    200 MeV: total energy released in nuclear fission of one U-235 atom (on average; depends on the precise break up); this is 82 TJ/kg, or twenty thousand tonnes of TNT equivalent per kilogramme.
    Around 42 million nuclear fission reactions per second!


  34. #114
    ASP.NET Moderator mendhak's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    This is how it all started...


  35. #115
    Fanatic Member kregg's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Where is his crowbar??

  36. #116
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    It's en route, actually.

    And no, I'm not kidding. The good folks at Reddit sent him a red crowbar, head crab puppet, and HL2 strategy guide with the directions "Give these to Gordon Freeman. He'll know what to do."

    And yes, if memory serves me, that's actually his name.

    here's the link:
    http://blog.reddit.com/2008/09/crowb...-strategy.html

  37. #117

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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by BillGeek
    Meaning there'll be 8.4 billion TeV released every second???
    "released" is the wrong word to use in this context. In nuclear fusion, nuclei combine and release energy. The LHC is doing the opposite, smashing hydrogen nuclei apart, which requires an energy input - provided by the LHC itself. (nuclear fission of heavy radioactive elements is a different kettle of fish)

    It would be nice if gravity "particles"/waves were detected .

  38. #118
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by BillGeek
    Meaning there'll be 8.4 billion TeV released every second???

    That's the equivalent of... of...

    Around 42 million nuclear fission reactions per second!

    That seems alot yeah... I don't know actually, but my quote says that a beam of protons travels at a maximum energy of 7 TeV... So they probably mean all the protons in one beam put together.

  39. #119
    Lively Member homer13j's Avatar
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    And you think your electric bill is high...

  40. #120
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    Re: The End of the World is Nigh!

    Quote Originally Posted by schoolbusdriver
    "released" is the wrong word to use in this context. In nuclear fusion, nuclei combine and release energy. The LHC is doing the opposite, smashing hydrogen nuclei apart, which requires an energy input - provided by the LHC itself. (nuclear fission of heavy radioactive elements is a different kettle of fish)

    It would be nice if gravity "particles"/waves were detected .
    You speak of the nefarious Higgs boson. Stephen Hawking bet Prof. Higgs that the LHC wouldn't find it

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