What I can't understand is... - Page 2-VBForums
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 41 to 69 of 69

Thread: What I can't understand is...

  1. #41
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    I agree the only solution is a ceasfire but it just isnt happening is it!!! Terrorist groups are breaking it up whenever things are going well
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  2. #42
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    It won't be successful if Israel is looking for the slightest chance to break the ceasefire.

    Imagine this: the terrorists have been striking in the form of suicide bombers. By invading Gaza and Palestine and killing a few of their soldiers or civilians won't punish the real culprits. It will merely "teach them a lesson". There is no 100% guarantee that if Israel stops these revenge attacks, the suicide bombings will surely stop. But there is 100% guarantee that if Israel retaliates the bombings will continue. The only sensible way is not to retaliate, because there's still some chance it may succeed. Have you ever seen Israel observing restraint, not invading the Gaza or making inflammatory speeches for even one whole week? Maybe it would work, but the people are just not willing to give it a try.

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  3. #43
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    Maybe i am wrong but i thought they had tried this in the past and were very restrained.
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  4. #44
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Originally posted by BodwadUK
    Maybe i am wrong but i thought they had tried this in the past and were very restrained.
    Maybe they didn't try long enough? Even I don't know exactly.

    I do wish, however, that Israel should take a leaf out of India's book and our government take one from Israel's book. We have lost thousands of lives and property and suffered innumerous losses on account of militancy but our government does not go beyond sternly-worded condemnation messages and appeals to the international community to tell Pakistan to stop supporting infiltration.

    I think if Israel exercised the kind of restraint we have, and if we invaded Pakistan every week, went upto Islamabad and fried Musharraf's ass every time there was a massacre in the valley, maybe, just maybe we could see a better world

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  5. #45
    PowerPoster Pc_Madness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,765
    I think you'll find that some groups don't want to see an end to the fighting, be it because they just want a fight, or there making a profit off the attacks.

  6. #46
    Frenzied Member KayJay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Chennai
    Posts
    1,849
    Originally posted by Pc_Madness
    I think you'll find that some groups don't want to see an end to the fighting, be it because they just want a fight, or there making a profit off the attacks.
    Can't believe that I'm saying this! Hell must surely be freezing over! But Pc-Madness, looks like Ur Right, though just this once

    "Brothers, you asked for it."
    ...Francisco Domingo Carlos Andres Sebastian D'Anconia

  7. #47
    PowerPoster Pc_Madness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,765
    Kayjay, **** you.

  8. #48
    Frenzied Member KayJay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Chennai
    Posts
    1,849
    LOL

    "Brothers, you asked for it."
    ...Francisco Domingo Carlos Andres Sebastian D'Anconia

  9. #49
    PowerPoster Pc_Madness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,765

  10. #50
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    The worst thing is some people really really enjoy fighting and killing, gives them an feeling of power
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  11. #51
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Originally posted by BodwadUK
    The worst thing is some people really really enjoy fighting and killing, gives them an feeling of power
    The biggest power is the power to decide on other people's lives. To decide whether someone will live or die. That's the biggest corruption by power.

    There being only one superpower now, matters are much much worse

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  12. #52
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    Saddams the onw who is deciding who lives and who dies in his country so i cant see how being a super state causes any corruption.

    The fact that Saddam kills his own whenever they disagree means that he is the culprit here and your attempted argument fails!!!!!!!
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  13. #53
    PowerPoster Arc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Under my rock
    Posts
    2,336
    Originally posted by Pc_Madness
    I've yet to see a decent argument agains t the war, so I have no reason to change me stance.
    I couldn't agree more. THe only arguments i've seen against war are

    1) You'll cause more terroism. To that i say, yah in the short term and also, so what?

    2) You'll kill innocent civillians. Granted killing innocent civillians is a terrible thing, there's no way we could ever kill as many as Saddam has and would continue to kill if we left him in power. He has killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of his own people.


    So far in the war we have killed maybe 100. Those 2 bombs dropped in the market places are now being blamed on Iraqs own millitary... it seems thier Anti Aircraft fire is coming down and landing on thier own people.

    So it seems that so far the Iraqis have killed more innocent civillians than the Coalition has.

    Ahh yes but here comes the argument of.."Well if you werent over there they wouldn't be shooting at you", wel to that i say, Talk to Saddam, he's the one that refused to cooperate with the U.N.
    -We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "Smart"?
    -If you can read this, thank a teacher....and since it's in English, thank a soldier.


  14. #54
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Originally posted by BodwadUK
    Saddams the onw who is deciding who lives and who dies in his country so i cant see how being a super state causes any corruption.

    The fact that Saddam kills his own whenever they disagree means that he is the culprit here and your attempted argument fails!!!!!!!
    Whether Saddam kills his own people or not is bloody nothing of the US business. No other country pokes its nose in the internal affairs of the US judiciary system. You don't want nobody to question the misjudgements of your courts, do you? Saddam is the judiciary in Iraq and the US is nobody to question his decisions.

    *sigh* But that's for someone who knows what living by the rules is

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  15. #55
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Arc, you just proved you are an ignorant and arrogant stupid git.

    The main reasons against war are:

    1. The US has no authority to unilaterally declare war. If you keep saying it's a continuation of the Gulf War, gimme a UN resolution explicitly authorizing the use of force by the US. Unless you give me that this war is ILLEGAL.

    2. The reasons cited by the US are so far baseless. There's no evidence of Iraq having WMDs. There is no evidence of Iraq posing an imminent threat to the US. And I am using the entire security council of the UN to make these two statements. No single nation has backed you up in saying Iraq has WMDs. Those who back you are backing you only because you are a superpower, not because Iraq has WMDs.

    3. Freeing the Iraqi people is none of your business. Your president is a miserable **** who doesn't know how to rebuild his own economy, and the US military has got loads of unused Tomahawks and Cruise missiles which will be useless in a couple of years, so why waste the chance to use them up ?

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  16. #56
    Lively Member FantastichenEin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    dairy
    Posts
    106
    No other country pokes its nose in the internal affairs of the US judiciary system.
    Really? Perhaps you should do some research.

    1. The US has no authority to unilaterally declare war. If you keep saying it's a continuation of the Gulf War, gimme a UN resolution explicitly authorizing the use of force by the US. Unless you give me that this war is ILLEGAL.
    So the war is illegal because you say so? You must be some lawyer.
    ****

  17. #57
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    What Saddam does is murder!!!!!!

    1. The US has no authority to unilaterally declare war. If you keep saying it's a continuation of the Gulf War, gimme a UN resolution explicitly authorizing the use of force by the US. Unless you give me that this war is ILLEGAL.
    You can declare war on anyone it is just a matter of wether anyone backs you or your enemy that matters. No leader has ever been arrested for starting a war

    So you recon it was none of our buisness to stop the murdering of the Jews by the Nazis. We should just have left them should we????

    All i see is very scared Iraqi people. Many seem happy to see soldiers but then they say they love Saddam. They are scared of what happened before. Now its started we cannot stop it because of what Saddam might do to any that HE decides were unloyal to him!!!!!!
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  18. #58
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Originally posted by BodwadUK
    What Saddam does is murder!!!!!!

    ...

    So you recon it was none of our buisness to stop the murdering of the Jews by the Nazis. We should just have left them should we????

    ...

    All i see is very scared Iraqi people. Many seem happy to see soldiers but then they say they love Saddam. They are scared of what happened before. Now its started we cannot stop it because of what Saddam might do to any that HE decides were unloyal to him!!!!!!
    I shall only say one thing: Unilateral invasion of the country is NOT the answer to the above. And don't forget that the US started using that propaganda when it decided to go ahead without the support of the UN. The only points it raised in the UN were the WMDs and a possible non-compliance with resolution 1441, both of which have been satisfactorily addressed by the UN inspectors.


    Originally posted by BodwadUK
    You can declare war on anyone it is just a matter of wether anyone backs you or your enemy that matters. No leader has ever been arrested for starting a war
    That's arrogance. It shows you don't have any sense of justice, any respect for rules and you want to exercise your will in every situation. Saying no leader has ever been arrested for war doesn't justify the war.

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  19. #59
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    Bodwad, if you are comparing Saddam's atrocities with the Nazi massacre of the Jews, let me point out that you can force the UN to take action against Saddam for human rights violation. The US has not been empowered to carry out unilateral military strikes. It must and it MUST have UN authorization.

    Deciding who's loyal to him and who's not is at the sole discretion of Saddam. I think it's much worse when the US president talks of "you are with us or you are with them" than when Saddam decides if someone is loyal to him or not. Also this decision is the outcome of the Iraqi judiciary process. I have never heard of any nation attacking the US for any decision by any US court of law which it thinks is not right.

    Or are you implying if a US court gives a ruling in case of a person another nation may call it injustice and call for a military attack against the US?

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  20. #60
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    Maybe you dont understand the difference between what is a fact and what is considered 'the right thing to do'. The fact is

    You can declare war on anyone it is just a matter of wether anyone backs you or your enemy that matters. No leader has ever been arrested for starting a war
    the right thing to do is


    DISCUSS IT AND COME TO AN AGREEABLE SOLUTION
    So you recon it was none of our buisness to stop the murdering of the Jews by the Nazis. We should just have left them should we????
    I am saying that we had to intervine then even though you seem to think we never should.


    So you think that a system that is not supported by the people should be used on the people!!!! Murdering 50,000 ir whatever people in Basra was a massacre not a punishment for a crime!!!!!


    Global Human rights give people the right to a fair hearing (Hell even Saddam would). The people of Iraq have been poor ever since Saddam put his hands on that country why should we let many people suffer for one giant ***** of a man!!!!!!!!!!!
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  21. #61
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    wow this site has a swear filter!!! I never knew that
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  22. #62
    Randalf the Red honeybee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    off others' brains
    Posts
    4,335

    Well ...

    You are directly saying that might is right.

    .
    I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing.
    Check out the rtf-help tutorial
    General VB Faq Thread
    Change is the only constant thing. I have not changed my signature in a long while and now it has started to stink!
    Get more power for your floppy disks. ; View honeybee's Elite Club:
    Use meaningfull thread titles. And add "[Resolved]" in the thread title when you have got a satisfactory response.
    And if that response was mine, please think about giving me a rep. I like to collect them!

  23. #63
    KING BODWAD XXI BodwadUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    2,176
    Diplomacy failed!!!!!
    If you dribble then you are as mad as me

    Lost World Creations Website (XBOX Indie games)
    Lene Marlin

  24. #64

    Thread Starter
    Fanatic Member simonm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Devon, England
    Posts
    793

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    Quote Originally Posted by simonm View Post
    I think that this is one of them issues that will be judged retrospectively. It will be deemed either a worthy success or a miserable failure depending on a variety of factors including:

    • How long it actually takes to complete the campaign
    • What the magnitude of both military and civillian casualties are
    • Whether or not the eventual changes will be broadly welcomed by the Iraqi people
    • Whether or not they do actually find concrete evidence of WMDs.

    I think it's impossible to judge it at this early stage.
    Interesting running across this post that I made 13 years ago about how we might look back on the invasion of Iraq.

    The campaign itself to Topple Sadam went pretty quickly it has to be said. But what I imagine few people foresaw was how long western troops had to remain stationed in Iraq fighting insurgents. There was a sharp rise of sectarian violence and disunity among the various racial and religious groups in the country. And when the troops finally left, the new 'democratic' regime nearly collapsed amid the rise of ISIS which threatened to turn the country into some crazy extreme caliphate that, if it had been successful, would surely have posed a greater threat to the world than Sadam's Iraq ever would have?

    Sadam was reputed to have killed many of his own people but how many have died in Iraq, either as a direct casualty in the 'liberation' or as a casualty of violence that has arisen as a consequence of that? I don't know the answer but it seems to me hard to argue that Iraq has really become a better place than it was before, or that lives have been saved.

    And as for the WMD's; that idea has largely been discredited now. No real evidence of such has ever been discovered.

    But is the world a safer place as a result of the deposition of Sadam? It seems to me that terrorism around the world is still rife, as rife as it has ever been and probably worse than it was before the invasion of Iraq. I think it would be extremely difficult to argue that it has made the world a better, safer place.

    We are where we are but, I think when I look back that I must judge it to have been a mistake. I do not think that we can say that we have not done more harm than good deposing of Sadam.
    Everything I say is either loose interpretation of dubious facts or idle speculation rooted in irrational sentiment.

  25. #65
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,376

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    I thought it was a mistake at the time, never mind in hindsight. It was a stupid war that we never should have been involved in.

    Afghanistan at least there was a reason, Iraq we had no reason so we fabricated one !
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  26. #66
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    6,513

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    I was thoroughly anti at the time but I think most of the problems that we're seeing since aren't a result of the Iraq war. In fact you can argue the Iraq war achieved one of it's most important long term goals: it inspired the Arab spring. That had the potential to be a massively beneficial thing for the region. Sadly, due to a combination of over-caution learned through the failings of the initial conflict and a unwillingness to upset our (and Russia's) vested interests in the ruling parties in the region, we failed to support of that spring in any meaningful way. Isis are not the result of our invasion of Iraq, they're the result of our failing to engage with the ensuing fall out.
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  27. #67
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,376

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    Isis are not the result of our invasion of Iraq, they're the result of our failing to engage with the ensuing fall out.
    Hmm i am not sure i completely agree, the power vacuum in Iraq allowed ISIS to spread in a way i never could have if Saddam was in charge. We removed Saddam but we had no plan what to do next and it is the fallout of what happened next that while it did't create ISIS, allowed it to spread through-out Iraq and Syria in a way it would have been impossible before.

    I am no fan of Saddam Hussein but then i am no fan of Robert Mugabe or Omar al-Bashir or Bashar al-Assad.

    Who we decide to remove using regime change seems completely arbitrary, unless you factor in were the Oil is.
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  28. #68
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    6,513

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    the power vacuum in Iraq allowed ISIS to spread in a way i never could have if Saddam was in charge
    It spread in both Iraq and Syria and it's that second bit that says to me that it wasn't really the removal of Saddam that created them. Your reference to "no plan" after Saddam is pretty close to what I mean. It wasn't the Iraq conflict that created them, it was our failure to manage the ensuing events. It's a pretty fine distinction and I'm not sure we'd really disagree if we really got into it.

    I think I was about the only person I know who was saying we should put boots on the ground in Syria soon after the incursion started. We didn't because 1) we were scared of the Russians (though not unreasonably so) and 2) the complications following Iraq and Afghanistan had quashed any appetite for foreign military involvements. And the fact that we didn't meant there was room for the likes of Isis to present themselves as the champions of the people of Syria.

    Similarly, in Iraq, had we been more willing to pressurise the sitting government to institute truly secular instead of fiercely anti-Sunni policies (and, again, that might have meant military involvement) we wouldn't have given ISIS the opportunity to portray themselves as "protectors".

    We got everything exactly the wrong way round. We got involved when it served our interests without caring for the interests of the local populace. Then we failed to get involved when it would have served the interests of the local populace but wouldn't have served our own. That's pretty much a recipe for creating anti-western movements.

    Who we decide to remove using regime change seems completely arbitrary, unless you factor in were the Oil is.
    ^That
    You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  29. #69
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    30,830

    Re: What I can't understand is...

    I think it was more a fatigue of foreign conflicts for us, rather than any concern over the Russians. From my perspective, we seemed to be kind of hoping that Russia would pressure Assad to abdicate, which would have been good enough for us in that country. We'd probably have declared victory just as we did in Iraq, and been surprised at the result just as we were in Iraq.

    If you consider the war over when Saddam was toppled, then, yeah, the war wasn't the thing. The Sunni awakening is something I would include in the war, and would have prevented ISIS, except that we walked away from that and let the Iran-supported Shia government further divide Iraq. The disenfranchisement of the Sunnis, who were the dominant power under Saddam, and our subsequent neglect of the situation created the grounds for ISIS to flourish.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Featured


Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width

Survey posted by VBForums.