Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
So in the Old Testament, there is a passage where God kills all the first born of Egypt because the Pharaoh will not release the Hebrew slaves.
Also in that passage, it states that the Pharaoh was actually prepared to release the Hebrews (due to the previous less severe plagues), but God hardens Pharaoh's heart, and makes him refuse just so God can show off his powers.
Is this ethical?
Did God just commit mass murder against Egyptian children to show off his powers?
How do Jews, Christians and Muslims (which I think all believe in most of the Old Testament), rationalize this?
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Hmmm, never thought about that. A good point but perhaps a bit too sensitive a subject to discuss. The last thing VBF needs is religious histeria :lol:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
The last thing VBF needs is religious histeria :lol:
Very true!
Blasphemer! :afrog:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
One of the best scenes I have ever seen on Family Guy is where Abraham Lincoln kills Isaac from Love Boat.
:afrog:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Most likely, the plagues never did happen, but may have been a story passed down from from a previous times, woven into the biblican history of the region. The hardening of the Pharaoh's heart is probably a parable to show how unbelievers are evil and even after seeing the signs, do not heed to them.
Of course, we have to go by the assumption that god controls everything and in this case, god controls the Pharaoh as well.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
God is a vengeful god, after all.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mendhak
Most likely, the plagues never did happen, but may have been a story passed down from from a previous times, woven into the biblican history of the region. The hardening of the Pharaoh's heart is probably a parable to show how unbelievers are evil and even after seeing the signs, do not heed to them.
Of course, we have to go by the assumption that god controls everything and in this case, god controls the Pharaoh as well.
I will repeat a previous post on this topic.
The story of moses DID happen, just not as described.
At the time a volcano erupted in the med (scientific evidence shows this) but because of the curvature of the earth people in Egyp couldn't see it. Now, when a volcano erupts from far away it is observable, even today, that animals can detect the eruption and flee the area. It also explains why the sun went dark (pyroclastic clouds), why fire bombs fell from the sky (volcanic bombs). In modern times we would see the coverage live on TV and know it is a volcanic eruption. In ancient times they wouldn't even know what a volcano IS so would attribute it to an act of god.
As for moses himself he took the people across the REED sea, not the red sea as the translation to English was wrong. The reed sea is perhaps nowhere near as deep as the red sea. Now, when a volcanic eruption ocurrs under water the shockwave produces a tsunami. From last year we saw first hand that just before a tusnami hits the water recedes rapidly, then the wave hits. This explains why the isrealites walked across, and the following egyptians were struck by a massive wave.
Not an act of god, simply a natural event that could not be sufficiently explained by the knowledge of the time. :thumb:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
But all these events did not occur within a short time span, did they? They must've had to occur over a period of say, a week.
Besides, there aren't any recorded Egyptian documentation about the events that are described in the story. It has to be an exaggeration of some sort.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
I will repeat a previous post on this topic.
The story of moses DID happen, just not as described.
At the time a volcano erupted in the med (scientific evidence shows this) but because of the curvature of the earth people in Egyp couldn't see it. Now, when a volcano erupts from far away it is observable, even today, that animals can detect the eruption and flee the area. It also explains why the sun went dark (pyroclastic clouds), why fire bombs fell from the sky (volcanic bombs). In modern times we would see the coverage live on TV and know it is a volcanic eruption. In ancient times they wouldn't even know what a volcano IS so would attribute it to an act of god.
As for moses himself he took the people across the REED sea, not the red sea as the translation to English was wrong. The reed sea is perhaps nowhere near as deep as the red sea. Now, when a volcanic eruption ocurrs under water the shockwave produces a tsunami. From last year we saw first hand that just before a tusnami hits the water recedes rapidly, then the wave hits. This explains why the isrealites walked across, and the following egyptians were struck by a massive wave.
Not an act of god, simply a natural event that could not be sufficiently explained by the knowledge of the time. :thumb:
And I will repeat the reply I should have made: You're a loony, but I mean that only in the best of ways. :wave:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
A better question to ask (in my opinion) is that according to the bible God was fairly active over the 4000 years or so (can be worked out by the genealogy of the old testament).
Is God still so active? If he is where? If He's not, then why not?
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
God did not kill the first born sons of Egypt. He simply kidnapped them and had his way with them until he got bored, in typical pedophile fashion.
:)
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
See I don't understand this. Christians/Jews/ (and maybe) Muslims know this story very well. But it is showing God as a mass murderer.
How can they still consider God as a perfect moral being?
I mean this is just one of the many passages of this nature. Check out www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
In order for them to retain the concept of God as being an all powerful, benevolent being, would they have to reject the religous text on which their faith is based on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by demotivater
God is a vengeful god, after all.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx
In order for them to retain the concept of God as being an all powerful, benevolent being, would they have to reject the religous text on which their faith is based on?
Well if God is all-powerful then he can do what he likes and no matter what he does he knows best - right? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1987
The story of moses DID happen, just not as described.
At the time a volcano erupted in the med (scientific evidence shows this) but because of the curvature of the earth people in Egyp couldn't see it. Now, when a volcano erupts from far away it is observable, even today, that animals can detect the eruption and flee the area. It also explains why the sun went dark (pyroclastic clouds), why fire bombs fell from the sky (volcanic bombs). In modern times we would see the coverage live on TV and know it is a volcanic eruption. In ancient times they wouldn't even know what a volcano IS so would attribute it to an act of god.
As for moses himself he took the people across the REED sea, not the red sea as the translation to English was wrong. The reed sea is perhaps nowhere near as deep as the red sea. Now, when a volcanic eruption ocurrs under water the shockwave produces a tsunami. From last year we saw first hand that just before a tusnami hits the water recedes rapidly, then the wave hits. This explains why the isrealites walked across, and the following egyptians were struck by a massive wave.
Do you have any factual sources to back this up? Not suggesting that it isn't correct, just interested to know more.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Reed and Red are both English words. You don't make any sense.
Are you saying Hebrew has an equivilent set of two words, one Reed one Red that also have similar spelling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
I will repeat a previous post on this topic.
The story of moses DID happen, just not as described.
At the time a volcano erupted in the med (scientific evidence shows this) but because of the curvature of the earth people in Egyp couldn't see it. Now, when a volcano erupts from far away it is observable, even today, that animals can detect the eruption and flee the area. It also explains why the sun went dark (pyroclastic clouds), why fire bombs fell from the sky (volcanic bombs). In modern times we would see the coverage live on TV and know it is a volcanic eruption. In ancient times they wouldn't even know what a volcano IS so would attribute it to an act of god.
As for moses himself he took the people across the REED sea, not the red sea as the translation to English was wrong. The reed sea is perhaps nowhere near as deep as the red sea. Now, when a volcanic eruption ocurrs under water the shockwave produces a tsunami. From last year we saw first hand that just before a tusnami hits the water recedes rapidly, then the wave hits. This explains why the isrealites walked across, and the following egyptians were struck by a massive wave.
Not an act of god, simply a natural event that could not be sufficiently explained by the knowledge of the time. :thumb:
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx
Reed and Red are both English words. You don't make any sense.
Are you saying Hebrew has an equivilent set of two words, one Reed one Red that also have similar spelling?
oOOOHHHH - - - - SHUT UP
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
The translation from the ORIGINAL language to English (Aramaic I think) was incorrect so where the Aramaic was referring to the Reed sea, the English was translated to mean the Red sea. Quite a difference in water depth considering the reed sea was only about 5 foot deep at the time.
Yes there is evidence. There are volcanic rocks at the underwater volcano that date to roughly the period of the ruling Pharoah mentioned. It's good in a way because it proves that Moses did exist, but the story has simply been exaggerated out of proportion due to a lack of understanding by the people of the time.
Obviously the amount of evidence is limited to rocks and such because only that kind of evidence would have survived so although there is evidence to support the volcanic eruption it is not conclusive.
Re: Moral question about Abraham and the Hebrews.
Using that evidence is like putting 2 and 5 together. There are various other factors involved, like the impeccable timing of it all, the offset of the entire incident from the plagues, and the fact that it is unknown which 'evil pharaoh' this story refers to. Until that's known, there is no fixed date or frame of time for these events, and other theories like the 'really-strong-winds' theory and comet-impact theory can also factor just as well as the volcano.
