Evoulution

[FantastichenEin]

Do you support the theory of evoulution.
If not, what are your reasons (scientific or religious)

I believe in Evoulution - I also believe there is a god, however I don't believe in the bible.

[denniswrenn]

I beleive there is a God, but I don't beleive in religion. I'm not really sure if I beleive in the bible. Same thing with evolution.

[flufke]

I just believe that there is something more, but no God....

[thinktank]

All I can say is that, I don't like people advertising their religion in public forums like this.

Our Religion supports Women 100% more than any other religion.

Act now , Convert to our religion. Call these toll free Numbers. .....
or visit these sites..

Our Religion sold 50% more than the next largest religion.

We have 50 million customers and still growing !

The first person to spot a defect in our religion will win a $10 million lotto ticket.

Recent Market surveys say, Our Competitors even after spending millions are unable to reach our stature.


AS SEEN ON WEB/TV . CALL NOW !!!

[filburt1]

I remember determining that Christianity is a pyramid scheme once. I would type it all again, but only if someone gets down on their knees (back off Kovan! :p) and begs.

[simonm]

Evolution is the best theory we have on how life came about to it's present state.

No serious scientists would claim that evolution is wrong. OK, some scientiest claim that there are explanatory gaps in the theory but they would hardly advocate discounting it altogether.

The theory of evolution is so old now that we shouldn't have to keep defending a good explanation that has no good rivals. The creationist theory is not really an explanation attall, rather it is merely an abdication of the necessity to find a valid explanation. i.e. God created everything "just like that" so don't bother trying to understand it.

Fine, if creationists don't want to understand life (and the developement of life) then fair enough. But don't get in the way of the rest of mankind developing their understanding of it.

[kedaman]

Evolution is much more than what you all think

[CiberTHuG]

Originally posted by kedaman
Evolution is much more than what you all think

*thinks* Nah, evolution is just about what I think. ;)

[Nucleus]

You guys trying to do each other's heads in?

Keep going, I am enjoying it :)

[fbokker]

Someone said, he believes in evolution. Well, maybe there is some truth about it. After all, it is in fact only a scientific theory – not a proven fact. So if you assume it to be the truth, it is in fact nothing else than faith. There are strong indications that the theory of Evolution is true, but however there are also key issues that have no satisfying explanation yet. Till now there has not come up any other sound explanation about the origin of life, so we stick to the best we have.
In fact, some scientists are already taking evolution as a natural law – which it is not (at least yet!). The consequence of this is that scientific findings automatically are interpreted in a way that makes them fit to the idea of evolution. And research is conducted focussed on finding further arguments for evolution rather than the neutral approach demanded by the scientific method.
I’ve read some of the creationist claims. First of all, they are definitely not science. They always argue beginning with: “The bible tells us, it was like this …”. This means that all their arguments are based on the assumption that the bible is truth in the scientific sense. But in fact, the bible is something, you can only believe in. You cannot conduct experiments that proof the bible’s claims. One of the most “striking” arguments is that the world is only 5000 years old, because if you calculate time from Adam and Eve to Jesus (the bible is supposed to have a full genealogy of this), this is the result. So please, why the hell should God create all these fossils, sediments, ancient polar ice etc.? – Just to confuse scientists and lead the world to believe that the bible’s claim has to be wrong?

[Bonker Gudd]

Evolution is a fact. :rolleyes: Ha ha, what are you all on about?

God created this World, but God did not create the Bible.

[kedaman]

a fact is a belief

[simonm]

Someone said, he believes in evolution. Well, maybe there is some truth about it. After all, it is in fact only a scientific theory – not a proven fact. So if you assume it to be the truth, it is in fact nothing else than faith.
Look, I appreciate what you're saying here but you argument could well be extended to any scientific theory we hold today.

Science is not about discovering truth. It is about providing explanations that enable us to understand the world. Some explanations are better than others (in the sense that they help us understand the world better) but none are perfect (or should even expected to be). New explanations are always comming along that offer even greater understanding of the world but even they will one day be surpassed.

Currently, evolution provides the best explanation to life and until someone can come up with a better one, the majority of the scientific community will continue to accept it.

There are "explanatory gaps" in evolutionary theory but many of these cease to be when you look at evolution in a wider sense and in conjunction with other scientific theories (such as Popper's theory of knowlege and the Turing conjecture on computation). Much of the new thought, when evolution is considered in the light of other theories, is beginning to suggest that life (and evolution) is one of the fundamental laws that make up the fabric of reality as we know it.

Only time will tell, I guess, but while those who critisise evolution for it's explanatory gaps continue (as ever) to do so, the principles of evolution are being used on a practical level in many fields, and, suffice to say, it works.

[kedaman]

That's what information is for :)

[FATBOYPEE]

Ok. Politics aside, Religion(s) aside, just for one minute here, even if the theory of evolution is proven. to it's N'th degree, one question will always remain, that being:

So where did it all come from ? Did the beginnings of everything just er, 'pop up' overnight ??

Whatever your beliefs as to the origins of life, try to answer that question first......:D

Pee

[kedaman]

It's probably unimportant

[nullus]

it all came from an energy to matter conversion (reverse of an atomic bomb). as far as i know, energy can't be created or destroyed, so that energy has always existed. that's my take on it anyway. ;)

[FATBOYPEE]

Ok, then,
Where did 'existence' come from ??

[nullus]

well, this energy to matter conversion must have created microbes or DNA or whatever, which began evolving and eventually evolved in to life.

[FATBOYPEE]

But where did this energy come from then ? If it's always existed, how did it get there/here?

[kedaman]

Why does it need to get there/here?

[nullus]

yeah, it never "arrived", it's just always been there/here.

[FATBOYPEE]

If you beleive in Evolution theory, then the word 'evolution' is key ? to change from something to something ?

Therefore, you must begin with something.

How then, can you begin with something that has always existed ?

The fact that (taking your premise of energy for a moment) you say this 'energy' has always existed means that evolution by definition cannot be correct, if it always existed then did it not evolve into energy from something else ?

That aside, what made the energy in the first place ? Surely it has an origin ?

I dont think it is sufficient to say that this energy always existed.

1. We dont know that
2. It defies the very logic of the Evolution theory.

Pee

[kedaman]

Why do you need to begin something?

[nullus]

evolution is a physical thing. it's the process of adapting to an environment so that a species can survive. energy has no need to evolve as it can't be destroyed.

[HarryW]

If the open universe theory is true (ie. there was a beginning to everything), existence is not defined before that beginning. So it didn't 'exist' before the big bang, because there is no 'before the big bang'.

If the closed universe theory is true, then time has always existed and all the energy in the universe has always existed. There was no beginning and there will be no end.

If you think the closed universe and the open universe threories are both wrong, I'd like to hear alternatives =)

[FATBOYPEE]

Nullus:

But my point is simple. If you're looking to explain the origins of Life by means of a physical process then we must surely desire to know where it began for that physical process to be validated.

Using such an infinite as 'Energy has always existed' is to me saying 'i don't know where 'energy' came from. It does not answer the primary question of the beginnings of evolution must be proved in order to ratify evolution as primary means of creation.

Kedaman:

Why do you have to begin with something ????

How else, considering Evolution, does one Evolve ? If you cannot trace your beginnings, at what point do you say the evolution chain began ?

Is'nt that the whole point ?

the 'bcoz it is' or 'bcoz it is' theory of existence is as much a starting point of faith as anything else.

If you don't wish to pursue your origins by way of evolution and accept that you exist at this point and 'probably' by way of evolution then you are making a conscious step from into accepting you do not know. That is my point. Evolution, like any other theory on the creation of life is a belief.

Pee

[kedaman]

Go read mine, it's under onthissite/The philosopher/My universe on my homepage :)

[simonm]

Fatboypee

Your logic is flawed.
If you beleive in Evolution theory, then the word 'evolution' is key ? to change from something to something ?

Therefore, you must begin with something.

How then, can you begin with something that has always existed ?

The second step that states that we must begin with something is not derived from the first step. Energy may always have existed and be constantly changing form. Evolution is just the physical manifestation of this pertual flux.

But, I would say that it is likely that energy existed before life, life comming along and disappearing many times throughout the history of the universe.

[kedaman]

Originally posted by FATBOYPEE

Kedaman:

Why do you have to begin with something ????

How else, considering Evolution, does one Evolve ? If you cannot trace your beginnings, at what point do you say the evolution chain began ?

Is'nt that the whole point ?

the 'bcoz it is' or 'bcoz it is' theory of existence is as much a starting point of faith as anything else.

If you don't wish to pursue your origins by way of evolution and accept that you exist at this point and 'probably' by way of evolution then you are making a conscious step from into accepting you do not know. That is my point. Evolution, like any other theory on the creation of life is a belief.

Pee
A theory is not a belief, a theory is a tool. I didn't imply I believe in evolution

[simonm]

Fatboypee

The purpose of evolutionary theory is not to explain how life came about in the first place. It is to explain how simple life forms developed into more and more complex life forms.

Another theory is needed to explain how life came into existance in the first place. The theory of evolution is not dependant on this because, although we don't know (for sure) how life happened, we know that we are here, and that simple life forms emerged much earlier than complex life forms. Even if it turned out that a God created the first single celled life forms, evolutionary theory is still valuble to explain how we (and other more complex life froms) came about subsequantly.

Incidentally, there are (tentative) theories that attempt to explain how life started. I am not particularly familiar with them but they are nothing to do with evolution.

[kedaman]

Simon
Does life need to happen?

[FATBOYPEE]

Actually....

I have no logic on this subject.
ALL I'M ASKING

is simply for somebody to prove to me that energy always existed. Prove to me the basis of your theory. It is not enough to say 'it's always been here' without proving how it got here in the first place.

Do that one small thing for me and I will beleive that evolution theory is true. If you cannot do that one smal lthing then I say to all who ascribe to evolution theory that evolution theory is not fact but a belief system like many others.


Pee

[kedaman]

That is too much to ask

[simonm]

Fatboypee
Did I not just exlain that evolutionary theory has nothing to do with how life got started in the beginning. It makes no difference whether energy always existed or it didn't.

Dismiss evolution if you like but can you come up with a better explanation? Can anyone?

[FATBOYPEE]

Currently, evolution provides the best explanation to life and until someone can come up with a better one, the majority of the scientific community will continue to accept it.



Somonm...
My question is tantamount to asking that particular question,

for those who say they have no belief system other than the scientific theory of evolution,
then evolution is not (as you point out) the theory of how life came about in the first place.

Energy does not 'just exist'.....

All I'm saying....

Good points on the evolution, dont really 'want' to believe it that way...scientific proof or no.....

Pee

:confused:

[beachbum]

This is the real story...
http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=494692

[kedaman]

Originally posted by simonm

Dismiss evolution if you like but can you come up with a better explanation? Can anyone?
I think I have

[FATBOYPEE]

SimonM

I was replying while you were replying, my post crossed with yours...

I hold much the same views as you appear to. The explanation you make of evolution is clear and concise. No issues whatsoever...


:)

[Gary.Lowe]

Good film too

[DWillems]

What if action-reaction is taken in account :

If the forces of the universe force the components (galaxies and so forth) to move away from each other until the point that these forces are "overruled" by other forces that force the same components back towards each other (ad infinitum).

If I extrapolate : what if life starts from the ashes of previous life i.e. life starts with simple molecules and evolves to higher beings which in turn destroy themselves or are reduced to the very fundamentals (disasters, changes in climates, whatever ...).
After this cycle, the process starts all over again but this time slightly different (external conditions).

What if we're only a part of a grand cycle that starts over again at some point in time ? Then there would be no beginning or no end.

Of course question is then : where do these forces come from :-)

[DWillems]

damn forum :p

[HarryW]

DWillems: that's more or less the closed universe theory. Or at least I think that's what you meant.

[DWillems]

I know it is the closed universe theory. I was merely stating that it is possible that life and evolution here on earth follows the same principles.
Who knows eh ?
Who knows how many universes are out there ? Is there a superuniverse in which all the universes float ?
We call it universe because it's dimensions are far greater than the reach of our measuring equipment.
Perhaps there is a universe entirely made out of rubber like a huge bouncy castle :)

The point was : did life start "somewhere" or are we just another stage in an eternal evolutionary cycle.

[simonm]

The point was : did life start "somewhere" or are we just another stage in an eternal evolutionary cycle.
If life was wiped out entirely (say at the big crunch) we would still need to explain how it started up again. If life was never wiped out then we would no longer need to explain how it came about.

[FATBOYPEE]

Just Hoooo izzz that Super hero....?

Where did these forces/that force come from that created this stuff we call life....?

For me, at any rate it's all belief & faith, I no more wish to know how I this life came about than I wonder how every day gadgets work....

I think you naturally come to an acceptance of some kind of 'higher' entity that fits & works for you... Be it named or innate, questioning all things for answers all the time to the most minute & macro-level detail to me only serves to heighten the frustration & thirst for knowledge, ultimately leading to missing out on the 'living' as it is now.

That to me is more important than where I come from: How I live now, and ultimately where I'm going !

Now the latter of these two could be inexorably linked with my bleief system of where I came from...

(just where is that fig leaf...)

Pee

[simonm]

I think what you're realy asking is why the universe exists attall (whether it was always here or was created) as opposed to not existing.

I don't think that question has an answer. The fact remains that the universe exists, it didn't have to but it does.

What is of interest however is how the universe gets from one state to another. Those are the sorts of questions we can answer (eventually).

[FATBOYPEE]

Ultimately... o'course being wierdly wacko.....

how do you know anything exists at all ??

Perceptively, tactile, sensually you trust in yourself to know these things, I think the term 'standing on the shoulders of giants' ??

As in, could we not be one of your multiple persona's ??

How do you know its not ? Because we reply to you ???

Could this not all be a fabric of your imagination in your pure energy state that has perpetuated & transcended mutating constantly ?

Or should we not just concern ourselves with whether there's a higher purpose for us as individuals to exist & get on with trying to live better ?

After all, Ego's aside, one of the reasons wer'e on this board is generally to help people out ? Bit humane for pure energy that isn't it ?

Pee

[simonm]

As in, could we not be one of your multiple persona's ??
What you're suggesting here is called Solipsism. You should have a chat with Kedaman about it.

Obviously, I can't prove that my mind is not the only thing that exists but I do not think it likely.

What you should ask yourself then is why you're trying to convince one of your 'multiple personas' (me) that you are just a figment of it's imagination?

I choose to believe that you are not just a figment of my imagination because you are complex and (seemingly) autonymous and, at the end of the day, I have to go on treating you as if you do exist outside of my imagination so what's the point in believing that you are just a part of my imagination?

The solopsist view point is all very well but it is indefensible because we are still forced to go on behving as if it's not the case.

[FATBOYPEE]

My point is the forebearing of such an idea, that is, that here & Now are more important that what we have come fromand the notion of our purpose other than that of pure hedonism... , the importance that we place on trying to understand where we come from is to me of lesser significacance than what we are now.

Of course the Solipsism standpoint is indefensible, but it does place in context that which we are now.

We could at this point slip neatly into the nature nurture blah.....
To me, most people I encounter spend ages working out for themselves what 'life' is all about, so much so, that when they finally cop on to it, they're either dead or too decrepit to live it out ?

So simply put, if we are to spend so much time working out how & why we're here, would we not better serve ourselves in understanding ourselves as individuals in the here & now, whatever our provinence and working out of that to understand that which we may become ?

The future's sooo bright....


I gotta wear shades....

Pee

[thinktank]

So the topic has chnaged from evolution of man to the evolution of the cosmos. let me put my views {actually conceived in my dream }

Take a look at a decent illustration of atoms and take a look at an illustration of the solar system. What comes to your mind ?

I have some gut feeling that our solar system, stars, and other cosmological structures are *just atoms of another super structure* and in the same way it is equally probable that our atoms are the stars and galaxies of a micro cosmos.

I guess, those inhabitants of our micro cosmos and those for whom we live in an atom, are in constant search for other life forms. yet, we are unable to communicate with either of them.

[fbokker]

well, thinktank

I don't think that way. actually the comparison isn't really possible. The view of our microcosmos as you describe it is a rather simplified model taught in school to make people understand what is going on. If you start considering wave/particle dualism, quantisation and all this there is a big difference between macrocosmos and microcosmos. In fact, if our solar system worked like quantum physics on large scale, it would be a short and very painful experience for us. so it is most unlikely that there are again universes hidden, for us invisible, in the microcosmos of atoms. what exists beyond our normal world, beyond our universe, of course no one knows. If there exists some again larger structure, it will most likely have totally different properties and characteristics than what we experience in our universe.