Community Helpers

[John]

I am pleased to announce that four respected members of the community have accepted my invitation to help me out and become 'community helpers' for the forums here. Aaron Young, Martin Liss, Megatron, and Serge will be joining me in helping to keep this board a productive and friendly atmosphere to learn more about Visual Basic while still having a fun time.

I have chosen them because they have all proven over their time here that they are responsible members of the community. They will now be helping me out by ensuring that chit chat posts don't stray into other forums and that discussions are maintained peacefully and happily.

They have my full backing and support in everything that they do, but please treat them nicely as they learn the ropes. I have not been around the forums as much as I should have been recently, so I hope that these four will be able to respond a bit quicker to complaints and reported posts than I have been able to.

Congratulations to you four, and I look forward to many more VB questions being asked and answered! It will not be long until we hit half a million!

John

[Ianpbaker]

Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh, the Nazi's are invading ;)

[honeybee]

Thanks for not including the following members:

Parksie
Dennis
Kedaman
Jethro
Katie
TD
SD
...
...
Honeybee
...


;)


The members you have chosen are really a nice team, some of the best in the forum. The only thing is we need to look at them just like we look at John, as Gods!!

:)

Congratulations, all of you five (that's including John) and I promise full cooperation from my side to all of you.

.

[denniswrenn]

John, I thought we were friends? Oh well, then I'm not taking back that comment (http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90871) I made in chit chat..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Can you let somebody that HB mentioned be moderator of chit chat? Just so serious posts don't go astray in there? ;)

[spetnik]

Thanx for listening to my email, John!!!
:D:p

[SurfDemon]

Sounds like an excellent idea... as long as they don't get over-zealous in our beloved chit-chat room :D

SD

[parksie]

OK time for a kicking :(:( What did I ever do wrong? Nothing. Of course that's if you ignore the repeated attempts to gutter every thread, being a total maniac, disliking VB (this is the capital offence :p), tormenting newbies, and generally being a twisted git :D

I'm always nice to the 4 VB Programmers of the Apocalypse :D

[denniswrenn]

Joooooooooooooooooooohn, don't let them moderate chit chat..... pleeeeeeeeeeeease Joooooooohnnnn I'm gonna keep whining until you do something :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[parksie]

I retract my previous comments of support, after that appalling display from MartinLiss in Chit Chat.

[barrk]

It seems to me that the whole world has become much too politically correct and it is sucking (can I still use that term?:confused: ) the individuality and fun out of the world.

Now even the Chit-Chat Forum, one of the last vestiges of pure unmoderated fun, has been taken from us.

There is a report this post to the moderator link on the bottom of each thread. Can you please explain the reason for anyone to just subjectively make decisions to censor Chit-Chat unless it has been found offensive and reported?

[parksie]

Go Katie!

[denniswrenn]

Woo! Let's keep on bitching until they leave us kids alone......

[parksie]

And us adults :)

[denniswrenn]

shhhh it makes more sense if you just say kids....

[John]

VB World has and always will be a family friendly site. I have been asked by certain people around here, and indeed I wanted to anway, make sure that the chit chat forum in particular, could be counted on as a place that is suitable for people of all ages.

My inbox has been flooded, at an increasing rate, with 'reported posts', which is why I took this decision to have some helpers around so that I was not the only one dealing with them. I daresay people just relied on the 'report this post button' because they were afraid of being publicly attacked if they ever dared say anything about it in the open. This is not an attempt to censor your fun, or stop you having a good time, is it a call for you guys to find some fun things to talk about that people will not find (too) offensive. The 'moderators' are not out to stop you having fun, but to try and keep discussions in the right direction -- that is, not straying into offensive areas.

I am sorry if that does not please everyone, but it was the way that I always intended this forum to stay, but due to time constraints on my part, I have not always been around to try and keep it that way. I am not out to destroy the community that has built up around the chit chat forum, but rather to help it grow into a more mature place, where conversations can be held and read by all.

Thank you for your support in this.

John

[denniswrenn]

Well then John, can you make a hidden forum, just for us immature people? So we can talk about smutty dirty things?

Me, Katie, Mike, Simon, etc....?

[parksie]

Good idea on that one - anyone who wants access will have to go through John.

[spetnik]

Originally posted by denniswrenn
Well then John, can you make a hidden forum, just for us immature people? So we can talk about smutty dirty things?

Me, Katie, Mike, Simon, etc....?

Spetnik... :D

[Kzin]

Another way of doing it would be to create a named but accessible forum for this stuff *moderated* by some of the chit-chatters like Katie or Mike (presumably John wants to minimize workload and responsiblity on this) and bearing a warning about its contents.

The *moderators* would name it and take initial responsiblity but John would reserve the right to *prune* it with warning if he was having problems with advertisers, customers, 'VCs' etc (which is what I'm guessing is one of the things at the back of his mind).

I can see feeling riding quite high with some of the forum regulars here and it would be nice to get it sorted out without mass migration.

Just a thought . . .

[parksie]

So warnings like they have on porn sites? Not that I've been to any :rolleyes:

[Skitchen8]

Originally posted by parksie
So warnings like they have on porn sites? Not that I've been to any :rolleyes: parksi the amazing porn dictionary... knows every legal agreement on every porn site accross the net:D John i do believe you forgot my name there!! :D... i think that katie should be a chit-chat mod also.

[Kzin]

Another way of doing it would be to create a named but accessible forum for this stuff *moderated* by some of the chit-chatters like Katie or Mike (presumably John wants to minimize workload and responsiblity on this) and bearing a warning about its contents.

The *moderators* would name it and take initial responsiblity but John would reserve the right to *prune* it with warning if he was having problems with advertisers, customers, 'VCs' etc (which is what I'm guessing is one of the things at the back of his mind).

I can see feeling riding quite high with some of the forum regulars here and it would be nice to get it sorted out without mass migration.

Just a thought . . .

[Kzin]

Originally posted by parksie
So warnings like they have on porn sites? Not that I've been to any :rolleyes:
. . . Depends what you are using as an Avatar ;) . . .

. . . no . . . that warning would be that this area (the open forum) is unmoderated (or minimally moderated) and may not be suitable for all tastes. or somesuch thing

I'm guessing AOL must have the wording sorted out for this sort of thing since they have built a multi-billion dollar company and had to work around this sort of problem.

[barrk]

John,

I respect your decision to try to respond to those who have sent you reports. I just wonder if the reporters are the same people who have shown a very offensive (to me) lack of intolerance toward people who have different opinions than they do or if they are genuinely offensive topics.

As you may know, I am a forty-two year old, married woman with three children. I have seen people hurt by religious intolerance, hatred towards people of alternate life-styles (gays), racial bigotry and just plain stupidity but I have never, ever seen anyone hurt through smiling.

Chit-Chat had many threads that I thought were offensive in nature because they showed a marked intolerence for other people...none of them were the threads that your moderators would find offensive I imagine. Just because they bothered me, I chose not to read them or respond to them. If I felt very strongly about them I let the poster know!

There are a lot of very wonderful people with a sense of whimsy and delight that brings happiness to the community. When my husband had a heart attack and I was gone from this site for over a week the community reached out to me and has helped me get through this hard time. They are a very special group of people! It is shame to see them censored.

Do the new moderators have a guidline to follow before banning or locking? If someone refers to me as a seppo, will they be there to defend me? Somehow I don't think so. Up until now, I have just defended myself. (As it should be!) I have a voice and I used to be able to use it! It's a shame that power has been taken out of my hands and put into the hands of someone else.

I'll take my soapbox and go home now. Thanks for listening!

Katie

[Skitchen8]

i agree with katie... i think that the chit-chat forum does not need a moderator, if people have complaints there is always the link to report the post to you. I don't think that it is necessary to censor the people in chit-chat because if someone is offended they can choose on their own not to read a thread. If they choose to read it and get offended there isn't much anyone can do. And one more thing someone just shut down post-race and its pissing me off so please do something about it.

[spetnik]

*WILD STANDING OVATION*

Well, said Katie. We all admire and love you :).

[Skitchen8]

*all rise as the world echoes with loud clapping... then wait theres parksie with your name written accross his chest

[parksie]

Tattooed, no less :)

[Ianpbaker]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker
Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh, the Nazi's are invading ;)

Ironic really, that I post this 12 hours ago as a light harted joke, dpn't really look at the site, and come back to this :mad:

[SurfDemon]

John,

It is your forum and you have the right to make the rules as you see fit. If I offended yourself or anyone in the forum with any of my posts in chit-chat, then I apologise unreservedly.

Unfortunately I do not wish to be constantly second guessing everything I say to see if it is politically correct or not. Therefore, I thank you profusely for the use of your excellent site, and for allowing me to meet with other like minded individuals, but as I am un-comfortable with this heavy handed policing policy, I don't think I will be returning to the site in the future.

Thank you once again,

SD

[Ianpbaker]

I'm with you on this one SD :)

[filburt1]

Originally posted by denniswrenn
Well then John, can you make a hidden forum, just for us immature people? So we can talk about smutty dirty things?

Me, Katie, Mike, Simon, etc....?

Yay! Dirty smutty things! :D

[chenko]

I dont mind that we have moderators (well not really) but not when they are gonna make a mess all over the forums with confusion and hatred.

[parksie]

John, please read: http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91314

[chenko]

To be honest i think its a load of bollocks. keep em to there own forums, they dont come here every day to post and chat.

[Beacon]

John:

Aaron Young, Martin Liss, Megatron, and Serge

1) I've never seen serge nor aaron here!
2) Megatron hardly ever is on!
3) Martin liss is on occasionally!

May i ask who's going to moderate chit chat while your asleep!!
Sweet dreams and rest of world is awake.

How can you moderate chit chat! Have you ever been on IRC?
If you dont like it tough!
You really dont want to lose your mainstream audience do you john?

If there's gonna be some underground chat i'll be in it!
But i mean it shouldnt be this way!

[Beacon]

I'm not pissed off by anymeans! I dont give 2 hoots if someone moderates free speech.
Hey it's your world do what you will!
But what annoys me is when i come here and some ppl have gone and ruined it for everyone else. Time to grow up i think.

Also what do you mean by Family Orientated?
I'm yet to see the day when i family sits down to type away at a computer. Especially on a vb forum.
Perhaps the demographic you thinking of is wrong!!

Perhaps this underground chat is good. It'll get more ppl in it than a moderated boring childrens chat.

[SteveCRM]

speaking of IRC and such, what ever happened to the VBW chat idea? :confused:

[Matthew Gates]

Why are you all acting like this? I believe the four who are picked were a great choice that John has made. Let it be, they all come on and have been here for over year and a half and have proved themselves worthy, they are all very smart, have helped so many, so leave them be and show respect, congradulate them, don't make them enemies, geez, calm down everyone. You're all acting very immature over this.

[Matthew Gates]

Although, I do agree with you guys about how Martin should have not closed that thread, it was just a joke, "rape". Nothin' too serious, not like, "I'm going to come to your house and rape you." Just over stupid stuff, and we should be able to talk about sex in Chit Chat, I defintely agree with that. The thing that I think should be stopped is the calling of others gay and stuff. Like the threads with kovan and Dennis, calling each other gay. That's what the moderators should be for, to stop non-sense like that. To stop the people that target others. Members trying to create war with other members, not good. But not over sex talk or whatever. The sex talk doesn't go too deep, as to where it's grossed out. Everyone is good at keeping that to a level where it's just funny. Moderators should be a bit more careful, as John is when it comes to judging whether something is too bad to continue or not.

[Beacon]

Mathew i agree i dont care who the moderators are!

Why coz i've never seen them here so hey doesnt bother me!
Besides martin and occasionally megatron!

But moderating chit chat is confusing. Why becasue now all of us are going to be subject to 4 ppl's beliefs and views!
If i post a view that say martin doesnt like and he deletes it or whatever how am i meant to post my view on something then.

How am i meant to see a ppl views on different subject and possibly change mine!

For example i would assume 1 of them is a pom and say they love cricket and i post something saying how crap poms are a cricket. He could just delete it or something.
Thats what i disagree with!

Say one of em is gay and kovan posts that he dislikes gays then one of them deletes the thread!
Thats kovans view and he is entitled to it! If you disagree then disagree with him but because one of them doesnt share that view the rest of us cant give our opinion on it!

See what i mean?

[denniswrenn]

Here's my $0.02


I wouldn't mind if there were moderators, as long as they did what they should. Locking threads about jokes about things(Even if they are bad), just isn't cool. But if someone like nukem shall visit this forum, and begin threatening everybody with serious threats, that is the kind of thing that should be moderated. If you don't like the content posted in chit chat, don't go in there. It is Chit Chat it is not meant to teach you anything(maybe a thing or two about sex ;)), and thus is completely optional for any programmer who shall visit. If he is offended by what he sees, he should not be seeing it.

I am sorry if anybody disagrees with me, but chit chat is a place where you don't have to come, you can learn anything and everything we all know about programming without visiting chit chat.

Please John, consider this. I don't think chit chat should be moderated by anybody, and if it has to be, then be it by somebody like Katie, Mike, or SurfDemon, although they have very *Ahem* interesting minds, they know when things have gone too far, and will deal with it appropriately. Joking about rape is nothing bad. The joke was aimed towards Simon, and he didn't care, he found it amusing and played a long with it. If the person who it's aimed towards doesn't find it offensive, neither should anybody else^. And if they do find it offensive, then they have a very serious problem and should promptly see a psychiatrist about the obsession they obviously have with theirself...

^ In my opinion this applies to nearly anything, unless it is said in a serious manner and/or crosses a racially/sexually-oriented line. If it's an Aussie against a Brit, then I don't find it to be offensive to anybody 'cause in here, those two "groups" always joke around. If it is a sex-related comment, unless it is serious and/or a possible threat, or the recieving person finds it offensive, I find no reason to moderate this(ex: the sheep thread about rape). As I have said few times before, this is chit chat, and you are not obligated under any circumstances at all to visit, or even read threads contain therein.

I find MartinLiss to be a good, smart guy, and I said a few things about him on MSN Messenger(not to him, but to Simon, and Mike), that were jokes, but I still shouldn't have said, I appologize for those things, but if he continues this unneeded moderation of humerous posts, I will really begin to dislike him.

I'm sorry Martin, John & Co, and anybody else I may or may not have offended with this post and my behavior in the past day.

-Dennis

[kovan]

i believe the chit chat is for just non sense stuff
do you see me posting non sense threats in forums that actually mean something to people

i think moderating the chit chit is taking one step to far

[kovan]

beacon actually brought up some good points (wow, i am suprised)

but exactly i agree with what he said about people being entitled to their opinion

i started a LOT of thread on islam, there were people that made posts in that thread that were OFFENSIVE to islam, but you didnt see me crying about it and having those posts removed
not everyone will agree with you and thats life
if those posts that were insulting islams were removed
than there would just be no point of having a thread started if you complain about every post that someone makes that you dont agree with

and another thing
if someone started a pro-gay thread
you can bet i will post in that thread and will say few things as part of my OPINION,

moreover,
if you gonna have few people (those mentioned by john) decide whats approperiate and whats not, that is just not fair
i respect those people GREATLY, for all the good things they have done for the people on the forum
but i certainly dont want them to be the judge of whats approperiate and whats not, SPECIALLY with some contrivertial topics of gays, religion, and science..

[denniswrenn]

I never thought I would see the post made by kovan that I actually agreed with.

Although I feel like slapping this mama's boy for calling me a *** (;)), I have never felt the need to report any of his posts to a moderator, although I think some of the opinions he has of homosexual persons are very unreasonable and not right. Kovan has been an ass so many times, I can't even count... If I had $1.00 for every time he acted like an ass, well, move over Bill Gates.... Anywho, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and if kovan thinks Simon should be raped over and over by Jethro, well, let it be, Simon found it humerous, so no harm done. If this isn't a place where people are allowed to do this, I want absolutely no part of it.

[kovan]

if i was a dictator
i would hang everyone who didnt have a sense of humor for jokes i make (well i could do that if i was dictator could i not?)

i have picked on ALMOST everyone on the chit chat

i have never had anyone tell me i have gone too far with making jokes about them, if they take offense to what i say, i will apologize to them AND i will never mention them again
but most think its funny

yes dennis you find it funny when i call you.. ohh ya that word

n e who'z,
sense of humor makes you live a better life, a happy life
i can go on and on and on

FREE SPEECH, that is one of the BASIC human rights
if i dont get that here
i am going to united nations (well that wont go anywhere since i am from middle east and they will just kick me out for wanting freedom)

[Beacon]

Yeah struth we agree with something kovan!

I reckon if they dont have a sense of humour then:
1) They live a very very sad misrable life!
2) If they take everything so serious then they live a ver very sad life.
3) They need to be shown that the majority of the human populace has a laugh at ppl's misfortune or expense but thats life.
It's all to do with having FUN. No-one is serious in chit chat it's fun. And if you cant handle it then go back to watching re-runs of general hospital and east enders by yourself in your single bedroom apartment until you die which no-one will give 2 hoots about!

[honeybee]

I had just seen the thread title and didn't see the thread itself which was locked by MartinLiss as you people claim. So I do not know if that thread deserved to be locked or not.

Instead of discussing that, I think we all must agree that some threads in the Chit Chat forum have really gone out of control and turned personal. At the same time, threads, such as Kovan's Gay members thread, although seem a bit far-stretched, would not turn anyone off. Even I was not that offended by seeing my name in that list!

Many times I have found that when a member mentions something which seems to bother him/her, others just try to tell him/her to ignore it. It happened with me twice, once over someone's avatar and then over someone's username. Nobody said we could settle the matter by some discussions. Almost everyone wanted me, and others who found it bothersome, to ignore such things.

Just when you expect only mature members to visit and participate in the Chit Chat forum, I think you all should behave a little more maturate yourself. Your idea of fun may not be everyone's idea of fun, and that everyone has the same right to his/her freedom as you have. This means that you have no right to offend someone just because you think it's harmless. If members just decide to ignore the Chit Chat forum, it will constitute a failure on the part of those who frequent it. Chit Chat forum should be something like a community centre rather than being some select members' backyard where you can linger around only if you satisfy their standards.

I am not supporting the actions of any newly-appointed moderators, because I do not have any details about it. All I want to say is if the Chit Chat members behave a little more responsibly, John need not appoint any moderators.

And Katie is excluded from the above list.

.

[John]

I believe that Honeybee has more or less hit the nail on the head.

However, before I take this discussion any further, I would ask that you do not make personal attacks on the people who I have asked to be moderators. They are acting on my authority and on my behalf, so any complaints that you want to make, take to me. In particular, there is no need to go making extra usernames to attack them...I know exactly who you are, and you have been treading a very fine line.

I would like to thank Parksie for starting that 'confession' thread. I would have replied there, but my reply would probably have been lost in the quantity of short replies going back and forth there. Now I know that you guys were trying to get a point across, but it was not really the best way of doing so. It has got many more people up in arms, and did not help what is already a tense situation.

This 'peeing sheep' thread seems to be in high contention. What Martin, quite rightly, was objecting to in there, was the mentions of rape. Even if they were in jest, that is not something to joke about. It is a very serious issue, and very emotionally painful for all those involved. However, that thread is just one example of what I don't really want to see in chit chat.

As Honeybee said, "All I want to say is if the Chit Chat members behave a little more responsibly, John need not appoint any moderators.", that was exactly the way that I have been trying to phrase my messages on this issue. I did not want to have to appoint moderators, but over the past weeks, I have had less time to spend here, and the number of reported posts has been rising, so I had little choice.

If the guys who frequent the chit chat forums can try to apply a little self-moderation, then I am sure that things will be much happier, and the whole situation will not look so blue. I would like the chit chat forum to be welcoming to everyone, however old or young, whatever race or religion. I am quite sure that this is possible, with a little thought on everyone's part. Just think before you click that submit button!

Here's a good one that my mumsy and dadsy tought me when I was a wee whippersnapper:

True
Helpful
Informative
Nice
Kind

I see no reason why that cannot be applied, at least to some extent, to people's posting here.

I am sorry if you feel that these rules are infringing on your freedom of speech. However, please remember that this site is provided as a free service, primarily to help people develop in Visual Basic. The chit chat forum is there for people to have a little out-of-hours fun, and I would like it to be so that everyone can enjoy it, not just a select few.

I hope that you can understand my reasoning behind this, and I would encourage you to take this on board and not leave.

Regards,
John

[chenko]

Originally posted by John
whippersnapper

:eek:

[Ianpbaker]

another way of putting it for all you usual suspects (Simon,SD,Mike etc.... including me :)) is that we can still have our harmless fun of taking the micheal out of each other and going down some strange route, just as long as it is not infuriating other's. Think about it, mostly all the time we keep it all between us lot anyway and rarely do we invlolve others Apart from hi- jacking people's post's, which we should stop if we are causing that much comotion between the other members(Which includes me as I was a prime suspect in that :)). But on the other hand, if we are having our harmless fun and some one comes into it, they should expect to be rid-iculed like the rest of us get done (Christ, the amount of things I have been called by you 'orrible lot ;)).

Right that's my say and I won't say anymore. Let's all shake hands, go down the pub and get pissed together, then the real fun will begin ;)

[chenko]

...and come back on to vbw totally ratted ;)

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker
... go down the pub and get pissed together, then the real fun will begin ;)

Oh God, no sherry!!!!

Frankly, Ian, I doubt how many others will share your view. I think Matthew is the most responsible person when Chit Chat is concerned. He does not refrain from taking a piss out of someone, but he does not give anyone a chance to point a finger at him. That's something we should follow. Make fun of others, but keep it to the limits of decency. Never forget that you are at a discussion forum, a public place.

John, as a step towards settling this matter, can we have Megatron moderating Chit Chat rather than Martin Liss? Nothing personal for or against any one of them, but I just thought that could pacify the members a bit. There is always a chance that the power vested with these four members could be used ruthlessly, giving rise to lots of complaints from the Chit Chatters. Appointing Megatron as the Chit Chat moderator could help ease matters as he is often seen participating in Chit Chat, too. Of course his participation is always decent, not that I need to mention it.

Just some suggestion to solve the problems.

.

[Bonker Gudd]

Originally posted by honeybee
John, as a step towards settling this matter, can we have Megatron moderating Chit Chat rather than Martin Liss?Sounds like a good idea to me, anyone who immediately changes his title to "Guru and Forum Moderator" is probably not the right choice.

[Ianpbaker]

Originally posted by honeybee


Oh God, no sherry!!!!


Frankly Honeybee, I find that a racist comment, that you are Verbally assulting and sereotyping people from the south of england :(

[chenko]

all of the people chosen to be moderators arnt around much at all!!

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker


Frankly Honeybee, I find that a racist comment, that you are Verbally assulting and sereotyping people from the south of england :(

Sherry is not restricted to the people of South England, so that's not a racist comment. Also you have misspelt the word 'stereotyping' as 'sereotyping'. Maybe that can be called a personal comment?!

Bonker, just because Martin Liss changed his status doesn't mean he is out to misuse the powers he has been given. And if he has taken some stricter measures, there sure are other ways to sort it out than creating 'Gay Marty' users and blasting him all through the posts.

.

[Bonker Gudd]

Originally posted by honeybee
Bonker, just because Martin Liss changed his status doesn't mean he is out to misuse the powers he has been given.:rolleyes: Well, John was using the term Community Helpers, so I imagine he was trying to play down the Moderation thing.

Originally posted by honeybee
there sure are other ways to sort it out than creating 'Gay Marty' users and blasting him all through the posts.True, very true, some apologies are in order.

[HarryW]

*Sigh*

I totally missed this whole moderation thing til now. I would like to say right now that I think it's a bad idea.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, including people with offensive opinions. If a gay person was on the forums and made a big deal about homosexuality being perfectly alright, would you close that thread if a homophobe found it offensive? Of course not, because that's not 'politically correct'. If there was a Nazi on the forums saying that eugenics was the right way to go about things, and someone found that offensive, would you close the thread? Of course you would, because naziism (sp?) is frowned upon by most of society. So what? Aren't they all entitled to their own opinion? Isn't that what democracy is about? I personally don't care if someone holds some Nazi viewpoint, so long as I have the opportunity to publicly disagree with them. The fact that the chit chat forum regulars post so much means that what they think of as acceptable (and I think that should be what matters - what the people reading it think) and what they think is unacceptable is made clear by the attitudes expressed in their posts.

If some Christian extremist starts telling me I'm going to hell for not sharing their beliefs, I might find it offensive but I'll tell them that, I'll express my own opinion in opposition to their opinion. That is perfectly fair, and that person has every right (in my opinion) to tell me I'm going to hell, if that's what they believe. I am just as entitled to disagree. That is the way it should be. Perhaps they're right and I am going to hell unless I change my ways; just because I don't like their opinion doesn't mean I shouldn't hear it. Perhaps they'll convince me and I will learn something. Perhaps they won't convince me but I'll learn something anyway.

The internet is the perfect place to discuss controversial issues, where people are likely to be offended, because it is so impersonal in a lot of ways. Nobody invades your personal space. You don't have to listen if you don't want to or aren't interested. Many many people can be involved in one debate, all expressing their views when they might not be heard among the shouting in real life. Everybody has their say, and whether or not we agree we all learn from each other.

I understand that some people find conflict uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that while they're closing their eyes and covering their ears and pretending these issues don't exist, they should be allowed to prevent those of us with stronger stomachs from discussing it.

The only thing I ever stayed here for was the heated debate. It's heated because people can express their real views rather than keeping the status quo so they don't offend anyone that affects their lives. I like that, people are brutally honest.

[honeybee]

Harry, you are right about being able to express your views. But then the other members should not team up against someone who does not agree with their views and start shouting that they are right and the lone member is wrong.

See the Chit Chat now. Almost all threads just contain some obscene talk about somebody's mom being gay or *****. Is that all the VB programmers have to talk about apart from the coding?

True, we have had heated, intense discussions in the past, right from the Bible to the God's existance. But never have I seen threads being ruined as I see them now. The freedom of expression is not reciprocated by all. If you want freedom of speech, everyone must be able to have his/her say in whatever matter he/she thinks worthy of it. We should not have members who target someone just because of a difference of opinion. And those who say internet is not safe, you have all the tools available to discuss the dirty ideas lying in your minds. Go get any messengers or enter some private chat rooms and blurt out all the dirty stuff in your minds. Why come to a VB Forum for that?

Katie and parksie are partially to be blamed for the sexual talk, but still these two people have, between themselves, maintained it to a relatively high and quite humerous level. Their exchange of comments is rather enjoyable at times. But the other posts are pure trash.

Katie and parksie, I did not mean to single you out, your posts are some which still have the quality a Chit Chat post should have. I have no complaints against you. But others are not able to exercise the restraint which you display.

.

[Ianpbaker]

HB, there was no offence taken (I don't really care what people say to me ), it was more of an example of of the idiocy of some of things that have been said about his whole thing. :) The main point is where to draw the line :)

[HarryW]

But Honeybee you're missing the point - the expression of opinion where most people disagree and, in your words, 'gang up on' the people they disagree with is democracy in action. The majority rules. If a lot of people disagree with someone else, why shouldn't they let everyone know it?

If the person who gets ganged up on can't handle people disagreeing with them, then they are the ones with the problems and we should not be penalised for it.

[Skitchen8]

here is my opinion on the subject. I also posted this on the vote for moderators thread.

I think the whole idea is dumb. Now Chit-Chat is going to suck because we can no longer do the things we could to before, and no longer make fun of kovan (and his mom). I am thinking about just quitting this forums because it is going to lose more members because a lot of us were on here chatting and having a good time. If we took away the moderation then more people would come here to help, because they can just sit back and have a good time. I for one am against chit-chat moderation, unless it is Katie doing it because she will take her authority seriously (yeah right!). I understand John not wanting the forums to go even more out of control then they already are, but its no longer fun. Post Race has been closed so there goes one of the major threads a lot of people were involoved in. I also understand John not wanting threads like the Pissing Sheep thread, but the comment(s) about rape were only joking, and everyone knows that they weren't serious. All of the comments made in this forums are all in good fun and i don't believe that too many people are offended. If they are then i think that they can take the responsibility upon themselves to ignore it. It doesn't help any to have a lot of people constantly whining that so and so made a name that offended them. No one has ever made a gay_skitchen8 name because i try to not offend people. If someone wanted to make a gay_skitchen8 name i really wouldn't care though, because I can ignore the person that made it, or just laugh with everyone else. Anyways thats just my opinion, not that anyone cares or anything though.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Beacon
2) Megatron hardly ever is on!

You're joking, right?

[spetnik]

Well, lately, we haven't seen you around too much.

[parksie]

Not in Chit Chat anyway.

John - no problem. I know you know who we were and we weren't trying to disguise that fact to you, because you'd know anyway without any proof ;) We decided that without a confession and explanation of some sort we'd probably REALLY piss you off.

I don't see how people complain about the whole "calling people's mums' *****s" thing. It's all a joke, lots of people do it, and I don't take offence if someone I know like Dennis, Katie, SD, kovan, etc. calls my mum a ***** or something. If someone I don't know does, then they can expect something very verbally painful.

[SurfDemon]

Parksie, thanks for the confession, but it's still apparent that recent posts are considered unacceptable to certain people on the boards if they are being reported to John. Without knowing which threads have been complained about it's very difficult to draw the line. Is it religeous intolerance, or intolerance to gays, or is it swearing (there has been a proliferation of this recently).

I find it amusing that Honeybee complains about finding threads offensive when he is (in my opinion) one of the most bigoted individuals on the board. I would never complain about his comments as I feel it is more constructive to make a reasoned argument and to try to change someone's view point.

As for the free speech issue, it doesn't really apply here. I've said it before, but we are allowed to use this board because John and Co. have kindly set it up. This also gives them the right to decide what sort of content they wish on their site, and I fully respect that view. If they are unhappy with our chit-chat posts, then thats fair enough, it's been fun, but it's time for us to call it a day and move on. I do not want to repay John's good work in running this board, by posting nusance threads or trying to "get back" at the moderators. That would just be lowering ourselves to the level of Nukem.

I would also like to say that I disagree with all the "Gay_MartinLiss" stuff. I think Martin was very wrong to wade in throwing his newly aquired weight around. The impression I got was that he was trying to show everyone who was boss, but I think he realises it back fired, and we have to give him a break as it was his first day on the job. Everyone makes mistakes, and we should just forgive, forget and move on.

However it is apparent that the way in which chit-chat has evolved, was not the way John envisoned it, and I don't want to ruin it for him. I will revisit the board from time to time, but under a new Username/Avatar, and I think I will restrict my answers to the actual forums (I do enjoy helping people out there). Don't worry SurfDemon will pop in every month or so to say hi and catch up on gossip, but I don't think it's wise that I try to be "funny" anymore as I'm pretty certain my version of humour is not globally appreciated.

Thanks again for a wonderful time.

SD

P.S. I thought I'd better post this so that Mike etc. realise that I'm not just leaving because of the Gestapo_John thread (though that did get my blood boiling - I can see their reasons for doing it - and hell, it was even quite funny after the event).

[parksie]

Yes, it's his board. Yes, it's his rules. If he wants us to tone it down, then he can ASK us - we're all perfectly reasonable about this! If John asked me, for example, to stop making jokes about people's mothers or swearing, then fair enough, I'll stop. If one of the moderators asked me - same result. What I don't like is a sudden crackdown - it makes me feel like I'm TOTALLY unwanted and seen as unable to change.

[kovan]

John

is there DEFINED rules for chit chat?
as far as i was concerned, it was "say absolutely anything"

i think there should be explicit rules
as i said before, i respect those choosen to moderate
but i dont want them deciding what is right and what is wrong
there should be explicit rules

if we break them
THEN they can step in and take it fromt here
but making their own rules as they go along is not right

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone else: is anyone REALLY offended by what i say so much that they would rather me just leave chit chat for good?
or is there anyone here that i have offended so much that they couldnt eventually get over it?

its all about humor
if you dont share the same sense of humor i have
do let me know

until then
i will say what i want on chit chit,

the Gay thread i started..
everyone i mentioned were people i joke around with on the forum, and i dont think i really thought any of those peoples were actually gay
anyways, enough of that

either leave chit chat ON, or OFF

[MartinLiss]

Matthew: Thank you for the support. I also think you have a point when you said that I should not have attempted to close that post. I did that more in response to parksie's comment which was
"I am so gonna kick your arse if you're serious. C'mon, this is CHIT CHAT for crap's sake!" than because of the topic, even though I still believe the topic is offensive even when it's put in a joke context. Thinking about it now I realize that I probably over-reacted and I apoligize. However, it is my responsibility as a moderator to keep chit-chat and other forums clean and inoffensive and that may involve future closing and deleting of posts or threads.

[parksie]

At the time I was temporarily insane having just found out that my second home was about to become a commercial speech zone (get it? ;)). I shouldn't have reacted like that and I apologise for it. However, at the time I didn't realise you were SERIOUS about it - I thought you were having a joke with your new "community helper" thing.

You may consider jokes about rape offensive, but does that give you the right to impose your own sensibilities on others?

[Matthew Gates]

Originally posted by Megatron

Originally posted by Beacon
2) Megatron hardly ever is on!

You're joking, right?

Originally posted by spetnik
Well, lately, we haven't seen you around too much.


Megatron is right on that one. I post everyday and so does Megatron. If I ever caught up to Megatron, you can then say, "Megatron is hardly ever is on!" :rolleyes:




Originally posted by Bonker Gudd
Sounds like a good idea to me, anyone who immediately changes his title to "Guru and Forum Moderator" is probably not the right choice.


Why are you all targetting MartinLiss? He's a good guy. He wanted to stay a Guru and he had to show that he's the Forum Moderator as well. Look at my title..I mean, it's the truth of course, but I'd probably put something like, "Master and Moderator" or something, lol.

Just back off of Martin guys, John had his reasons for choosing him, and he may have made the right choice, you must give him a chance to get the feeling of moderation. Especially through the moderating of Chit Chat posts. Respect him more, he's givin' you all a lot of respect and he didn't even bother to say anything after someone, rudefully created the name "Gay MartinLiss". That was completely uncalled for. Especially if it was someone in their 20s that did it. Very immature to do such a thing. And you know that John could easily ban you from the boards, from your original name as well.

It's only been a day since the moderators, give it a few weeks and we'll see how it turns out. John needs help on these boards, he's got a life, and other stuff to do. He had to choose people he could trust because he can't keep checking up on a moderator that he's unsure of, when he's busy and can't keep moderating the boards in the first place. So he chose 4 good dedicative people. And 4 great decisions he has made.

So everyone, just relax, see how it all goes, I'm sure it will work out.

[MartinLiss]

parksie: Thank you for the explanation - I can certainly understand being stressed.

You asked "does that give you the right to impose your own sensibilities on others?". That's a tough question. We certainly have free speech in this country but there are generally accepted bounds where speech becomes offensive or even illegal like falsly yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. John's and my and the other moderator's aim is to try rain in some of the "speech" in these forums that is out of bounds and someone has to make a stab what those bounds are. As I said, I probably over-reacted, but hopefully you agree that there needs to be some bounds. If you do agree, I would appreciate your input on what kind of comments, etc should and should not be allowed in the forums.

[NotLKH]

Originally posted by MartinLiss
... but hopefully you agree that there needs to be some bounds. If you do agree, I would appreciate your input on what kind of comments, etc should and should not be allowed in the forums.

A response to that is quite complex.

I have a simple question.

Exactly where should we formally discuss these suggestions,
How many of the High Five will actually be there to discuss things,
What Time Frame are we talking about, Shouldn't an e-mail notification be forwarded to All Members announcing this Policy "Meeting", what kind of rules will moderate this discussion,
etc...


I think if you are going to ask for input & ideas, a formal agenda
should be set up, or else furthur turmoil might arise.

Along with a congestion of not-so-serious suggestions that would
slow this whole process up.

-Lou

[MartinLiss]

NotLKH: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll bring it up with John and the others.

[scoutt]

originally posted by Parksie
Yes, it's his board. Yes, it's his rules. If he wants us to tone it down, then he can ASK us - we're all perfectly reasonable about this! If John asked me, for example, to stop making jokes about people's mothers or swearing, then fair enough, I'll stop. If one of the moderators asked me - same result. What I don't like is a sudden crackdown - it makes me feel like I'm TOTALLY unwanted and seen as unable to change.
I have been sitting back reading all this since day one, or since it has started. And I think Mike has a point. if John would have just gave us a warning about the offensive comments and such then maybe we could have toned it down or just stopped all together, on our own, But a sudden punsihment was a low blow. I agree with you John about the moderators, but we should have had a warning first that it was/is getting out of hand. when you are having fun, you don't realize that you might have offended the other person since you think it was a joke to begin with.

If you are around these guys (chit chatters) and you can see that they take control of the chit chat to a point where if something like Nukem, DBC, SmashtheQube, or any others, came in and did what they did, you can see that they have taken care of them as far as putting them in their place and telling them what they were doing is/was wrong.

[Skitchen8]

Originally posted by honeybee

I think the only purpose behind moderating Chit Chat posts is to stop it from turning into a porn or even more obscene place. . how is porn obscene... a general rule is to mention something sexually related in EVERY post.

[parksie]

We don't mention sexual things in EVERY post, except for the ones involving Simon's mum, a selection of whips, and people being held upside down wearing interesting leather clothes ;)

Oh I see your point now :D

[Skitchen8]

don't forget our beotch kovan's mom (***** hes knocking at my door threatening to kill me)

[JungleMan]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
don't forget our beotch kovan's mom (***** hes knocking at my door threatening to kill me)

O yea :p :p

[RIVES]

I think its a good idea. We should all be responsible in all of the forums (except chit chat). I think that chit chat would be our free speech forum. We should keep the other forums clean.

Still, there should be responsibility to the users in the chit-chat. I mean, there should be no porno stuff, and other illegal activities. Besides let's all be happy that vbforums exist.

CHEERS.

RIVES

[honeybee]

Originally posted by HarryW
But Honeybee you're missing the point - the expression of opinion where most people disagree and, in your words, 'gang up on' the people they disagree with is democracy in action. The majority rules. .... If the person who gets ganged up on can't handle people disagreeing with them, then they are the ones with the problems and we should not be penalised for it.

Would you justify the 'majority' actions such as gang-rapes by extending the above piece of logic?? Obviously if four men think they must have a particular woman, and the woman disagrees, the majority rules, isn't it??

I don't believe in majority. I believe in right and wrong. And though majority rules, there is no reason to believe that majority is always right. What you call democracy in action is actually hooliganism in action.

There has been a lot of arguing about the Chit Chat moderation in particular, and the so called 'Germans' or humour-bypass or whatever, some of it aimed directly/indirectly at me because I seem to be the only member apart from the top five to publicly support moderation. I still maintain that moderation is necessary. I still also maintain that it need not take the form of showing members who is the boss. If any of members can't see beyond their own freedom of speech and expression, whether in jest or whatever, I do not have any intention of convincing them. With this I am withdrawing from this debate.

.

[HarryW]

Would you justify the 'majority' actions such as gang-rapes by extending the above piece of logic?? Obviously if four men think they must have a particular woman, and the woman disagrees, the majority rules, isn't it??
***?:confused: That is completely ridiculous! Rape has been made highly illegal because the majority rules. There are a few people who would do it if it wasn't for the majority of society strongly objecting to it. The majority want it to be illegal in their society, so it's illegal.

What you are equating here is just completely..... I can't believe you think that's a fair comparison. Good grief.

[HarryW]

I don't believe in majority. I believe in right and wrong

I'd just like to make another point, about this quote. You believe in your right and wrong. Your right and wrong is not quite the same as everybody else's right and wrong, although there will be a lot of overlap. Why should everybody abide by your rules? Surely the fairest way to do things is to abide by the rules that most people want.

though majority rules, there is no reason to believe that majority is always right. What you call democracy in action is actually hooliganism in action.
It's true there's no guaranteeing the majority will be right about something, but what guarantee do we have that anyone's opinion is right? This is especially true of anything to do with morality, it is an entirely subjective subject. Entirely subjective. There is no 'correct' set of morals to have, but we all have more or less the same morals because if we didn't we'd probably kill each other even more than we do already.

[chenko]

Originally posted by parksie
We don't mention sexual things in EVERY post, except for the ones involving Simon's mum, a selection of whips, and people being held upside down wearing interesting leather clothes ;)

Oh I see your point now :D

:D

[honeybee]

Originally posted by HarryW

***?:confused: That is completely ridiculous! Rape has been made highly illegal because the majority rules. There are a few people who would do it if it wasn't for the majority of society strongly objecting to it. The majority want it to be illegal in their society, so it's illegal.

What you are equating here is just completely..... I can't believe you think that's a fair comparison. Good grief.

I know the comparison was far-fetched. It was just to illustrate that group actions cannot be justified as democracy in action. Just because four people want something and one does not, while there are 100 people in the society, does not prove the four people are being democratic.

Consider the number of active members on the VB Forums and consider how many of them have NOT participated in the moderation debate. So you still don't have majority when you say that you don't want moderation. On the contrary I would think you were in minority as many of the members had resorted to reporting objectionable posts to John. That would mean that a majority of the members actually want Chit Chat moderated.

It's of course my opinion. And I have posted this just to clarify that I am not as dumbheaded as some of the other members would like to think.

.

[HarryW]

We have no idea of the exact quantity of posts that have been reported, over what timescale, or by who. I suspect they are mainly from the same easily-offended people if they're about posts in chit-chat. I fully understand the moderation of the other forums, chit-chat is the issue people are concerned about I think.

You think the majority of chit-chat posters want moderation huh? I suggest you go to the chit-chat forum and look at the poll asking if people want it moderated. Last time I looked it was roughly 9 against and 2 for.

I don't understand why you think people get victimised in some threads. People make fun of each other, there's nothing wrong with that, but you are talking about people ganging up on other people purely out of spite. When has that happened? Please, tell me. If 4 people 'gang up', as you put it, on one (although to me that just means there were 4 opinions versus 1 different opinion), that suggests that they had no reason to disagree with that person. When someone turns up and states a controversial opinion, they can expect some kind of strong response. What on earth is wrong with people expressing their opinions? If someone provokes a conflict, they are liable to be ganged up on. It's their look-out. I don't remember any case where someone has been 'ganged up on' without some kind of provocation.

[RIVES]

Why don't you guys just think first about..."What if your son or daughter read this?" That's it. No more comparison. Finish it now. I mean this freedom of speech is very vague. I mean we were able to overthrow a president because of this. I think at times democracy should also be controlled. But then again, its a sensitive subject and its not about Visual Basic at all. So guys, CUT IT OUT!

[RIVES]

Why don't you guys just think first about..."What if your son or daughter read this?" That's it. No more comparison. Finish it now. I mean this freedom of speech is very vague. I mean we were able to overthrow a president because of this. I think at times democracy should also be controlled. But then again, its a sensitive subject and its not about Visual Basic at all. So guys, CUT IT OUT!

[Tygur]

I think everyone's just eventually just gonna calm down and accept it after a while. I'm just waiting it out.

I don't really like the fact that John got moderators, either, but I'll live.

There should be clearer rules on what's allowed and what's not, and the moderators should make absolutely sure somebody broke the rules before taking action. I also think the offender should be warned before action gets taken.

People should just carry on posting as they always have. Don't worry about someone looking over your shoulder. The worst that can happen is a thread can be deleted, so what? If you don't like it, let the moderator(s) know and maybe something can be worked out. The moderators aren't supposed to be deleting/closing threads, etc based purely on personal opinion, only if you preak the rules..

[HarryW]

RIVES, since I'm not American (not everybody is you know) I don't know what you're talking about with the president thing.

So, what if they did? Well? Big deal is it?

[RIVES]

HarryW,

I only meant to say that freedom of speech without responsiblity is not good. That's it.

Also, I ain't American.

RIVES

[honeybee]

All this while, just one thread was closed by the newly appointed moderator, Martin Liss, and members have been acting like they are going to be strangled or shot down with a bazooka for posting in Chit Chat. I don't know who is acting immature now.

It's high time we realized that Chit Chat is not going to be censored, just moderated.

.

[HarryW]

Sorry RIVES, I should have seen that in your location (was it there before?), I just assumed you were American because you talked about a president, and also because your English is pretty damn good.

Anyway you're right, but I don't think it justifies removal of free speech. I'm not talking about the forums particularly now, just free speech in general.

Honeybee, people are concerned that a trend has been set for the future and they are understandably narked about it.

[RIVES]

HarryW,


No offense taken man.

RIVES